Selena Gomez & Booktube's Obsession w/ mean girls, bully romances, stalking, & abuse [CC]

[@alexp23]

I really don’t like the trope of “bully romance” for me it’s not a romance. I experienced bullying and it is not fun it is awful I just can’t understand how this is such a popular trope.

[@moustik31]

Bully romances, mafia romances, etc. are not my thing personally bec. I dont find abusers attractive. I've always thought, that they are maybe popular bec. readers like to pretend their irl bullies were in love with them all along. What better ending for a bullied victim than to have their humanity recognised in the best way available for women: being picked as a partner. I think bullying romances might provide readers with the catharsis of giving the bullying meaning and a happy ending. Bullying is such a common occurrence and we do nothing about it. It's just seen as something victims must go through for ... reasons. It must be so isolating to be a bullying survivor. Imo, one of the saddest aspect of the experience is to realise, that cruelty was the point and the experience has no meaning.

[@andiman44]

I also think it’s important to discuss the difference between morally gray characters and relationships in adult media as opposed to media for kids and teens. Part of the big problem with Twilight is that the target audience was 12 and up, a demographic that doesn’t necessarily have all the experience and resources to recognize the problematic elements for what they are. It’s when bully romance and other toxic elements is in YA that I give it a side-eye depending on how it’s handled.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

ok points were made!! 🙌🏽🙌🏽

[@JulyMoon82]

Twilight is so gross to me because of the relationship dynamics, and the fact that a woman wrote it for YA readers just kind of makes it worse to me. I don't like stories like that. You made a very valid point regarding the targeted audience.

[@moustik31]

I have a different opinion about the "It's just romance argument" bec. I spent my late 20s, early 30s trying to heal from the romance stories I consumed as a child and teen. Mainstream romances did cause me harm and I dont think, I'm the only one.

[@kylereads]

I'm not a romance reader myself either so my view may be bias or limited. But I feel regardless of the argument that "reading is for escapism/it's just fiction" consent is important in romance novels. There are ways about incorporating consent which doesn't lack nuance to the type of romance novel your reading whether it be dark romance, erotica etc. By avoiding showcasing consent it feels to me that that's a way people maintain the preconceived stereotypes of men and women in society and teaches readers that "oh it's ok they are mean, because deep down they love me" or "I can fix them" which, yes this can be the case in some relationships but can lead to abuse in others.

[@freddie.spaghetti]

with regards to books that feature toxic relationships, lack of consent, etc, and whether it's okay for authors to leave those things unchallenged in their work... i personally think a good option is for the authors to write a foreword or another sort of disclaimer about it, if they do not challenge the harmful things in the book itself. the actions of the characters and narrators of a story don't necessarily reflect the author at all, and fiction can be a great tool for exploring some really dark stuff, so i can definitely think of times where it would make sense for an author to include dark/harmful things without challenging them directly in the text. art does not exist to be morally "good" or virtuous, at least not all art. but that's why i think it's good when authors at least acknowledge the potentially harmful content in a foreword or something of the sort, especially so readers know what they're going into. i don't know if this makes sense, and my logic definitely could be flawed so i'm very open to other perspectives!

[@NyssasOrbit]

I've actually been thinking on this myself recently, and I partially wonder if it has to do with toxic cycles of abuse, where all of us in society are constantly surrounded by people (for a lot of people, family members specifically) that will attack us one minute, then act sweetly and tell us they care about us the next. Combine that with being drowned in media that romanticizes this stuff, and you have people who don't know what the hell a healthy relationship looks like, and may even find healthy ones boring because these toxic ones are so "exciting" and full of "adventure". There's also the fact that women, in particular, tend to like obsessive stories because they can enjoy the idea of receiving intimacy without feeling the shame of the female character/self-insert initiating it. (Hence why those "bodice-ripper" stories get made.) But in order for the shame to not be felt, the usually male character has to be aggressive and force the relationship, then will come to love the female character unconditionally because that's what the readers /really/ want. This may or may not play into female/female relationships partially along with the above idea of constant toxic relationships and the perpetuated and normalized behaviour of women tearing each other down. There's also the fact that sort of ties into both above points that most people are left at the end of every day feeling inadequate about themselves. They love the idea of someone being obsessed with them and only them to fill in that feeling of inadequacy. If only the people that hate and bully them were actually desperately in love!! If only their worst enemy was actually the person that adored them the most and was putting up a ruse the whole time, and if they can only get to the part where the love is confessed, then a happily ever after will come, and they'll never have to be hurt by other people or search for a love interest again! Though ofc, this is also assuming that most people aren't aware of /why/ they're drawn to these stories and romanticize the grossest shit. But I think it's a combination of a lot of things. Oh, and ofc, there's also possibly an aspect of some people enjoying the idea of someone tearing them down to sort of affirm those inadequate feelings, but this response is long enough already, lol

[@vanshika6394]

y'all came through with the a+ content again! i agree - i'm not someone who reads a lot of romance, but i do have experience with a lot of mean girl bullying in primary school which arguably fed a lot of my internalised misogyny back when i was a teen and affects my relationships with girl friends to this day. that being said, i do think these books may be used as a means to condition women into accepting abuse in real life. i get that there's a line bw fiction and truth, but fiction feeds so much of our thinking, i can't help thinking people (esp young people) are being taught to normalise love interests being mean to them (a la the oh he only pulls your pigtails because he likes you nonsense), which kinda seems regressive to me? i also really appreciate y'all calling these bully romances and not dark romances - it's so so important to be conscious of problematic content, even if it's something we enjoy consuming, so thank you! 🥰

[@JesseOnYoutube]

ahhh thank you Vanshika. also was a pleasure to see u at the patreon live party today 🙌🏽💓

[@vanshika6394]

@@JesseOnKZbin y'all are too nice i will 100% collapse

[@maggieburton5020]

I appreciate you sharing your story about your experience with your bully and I think it highlights one of the main reasons why media with dark and "problematic" themes is important. When you read/watch/create something that centers those themes it can actually be pretty cathartic and facilitate healing and a deeper understanding of one's own trauma. The example that comes to mind for me is when I read House of Leaves (which underneath all the insane layers upon layers of metatext and whacky storyline is extremely dark and heavy) and had to sit in silence for like an hour before realizing how themes of mental illness, institutionalization, unreality, and the inability to trust my own senses terrified me. House of Leaves made me more aware of myself and the things I am sensitive to when I consume media, so like you said, I think the things we find ourselves liking to watch/read/create are deeply intertwined with the trauma we have endured, and they can help us navigate the world in a clearer way.

[@cakt1991]

I think it’s interesting y’all pointed out how there are some messy, dysfunctional women characters who are idolized. When you mention bully romance, I think about how most romance readers love the alpha, mean guy, including the likes of Fifty Shades, After, CoHo, etc. And many times, romance readers will demean women leads who dare behave like men, even if the reader is supposedly progressive. There’s this book I loved, The Rakess by Scarlett Peckham, for turning many of the tropes of the historical romance lothario on its head, yet this critic who I have a lot of issues with didn’t like that the lead’s promiscuity was tied to trauma…never mind that so many of her cishet male counterparts are infamous for weaponizing their trauma to explain their awful behavior. I think my frustration with the glorification of cishet white men’s mediocrity vs. the demonization of cishet women for the same behavior has really shaped how I respond to seeing *any* stories about messy women, in any genre.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

ok this is deliciously insightful commentary! ty! would love thoughts from others specifically on the last point made regarding mediocrity/demonization

[@TheAquamarine4]

Oh i really feel like justifying messy women’s actions is going to continue to be more popular in YA books in the future . Especially with me seeing lots of younger readers say things like “I respect women’s wrongs” so often so it’s interesting to see how the market will change with books!

[@cakt1991]

@@TheAquamarine4 my perspective has a lot more to do with the climate of adult fiction, specifically romance, and I wish some of the popular trends in YA would transcend to adult. I think publishers are *trying*, but part of it is that the Old Guard romance readers are resistant to change and the other part of it is that publishers don’t entirely know how to evolve the genre in a way that works. For every author they pitch as new and fresh and revolutionary, it feels like those authors are just doing more of the same traditional cishet BS, but with more marketing dollars.

[@TheAquamarine4]

@@cakt1991 I sometimes feel like publishers know what kinds of books whether that be adult or not that people want to read but that they don’t have the bravery to introduce them because they’re not commonly invested in those books and often times there’s a bit of discrimination in the industry when it comes to selecting which authors to represent too:/

[@cakt1991]

@@TheAquamarine4 more than just a bit…it’s honestly a systemic trend, and authors are constantly talking about it on Book Twitter. And it’s so bad that it inspired a satire…RF Kuang’s Yellowface. It’s simultaneously the funniest and most depressing thing, but the lead is a great example of a truly irredeemable protagonist…and the exception to the rule about “supporting women’s wrongs.”

[@Shalamalabingbong]

I read quite a bit of romance and always look for consent no matter the trope, but I don't really read anything with characters described as "alpha" or "controlling". I also gravitate a lot towards those darker books (I've read a few of the ones you showed) and it has never clicked with me that I might be reading them so I can have a safe way of revisiting some old issues. That makes sense!! This is why I love your channel, it makes me think about stuff differently 😊

[@Tasmetu]

Such an important video with so much nuance - I could have never said it better. Thank you! This is why we need more diverse books, especially in the romance genre. Mean girl behavior often ties a lot into beauty standard and expectations towards women to "be it all" or to be a certain way (physically, in their behavior, etc), which basically all boils down to capitalism and the patriarchy. And only new, different stories and ways of storytelling can break this cycle of enabling our own oppression by a system that literally harms everybody

[@JesseOnYoutube]

thank you, Tasmetu ❤️‍🔥

[@belair90210]

Yesss! Please do a vlog reading all your unread mean girl/obsession books 😊

[@JesseOnYoutube]

it’s in progress hehe 🤫

[@belair90210]

@@JesseOnKZbin awesome can’t wait! 🥰

[@bettyjo2022]

Firstly, I love that y'all are having these conversations. While I only am answering to a small part of the conversation I still like they way y'all tied things together. As someone who reads mostly romance these days I may have a little insight. I think a lot of people put higher standards on romance than they do on other genres. Like romance aren't allowed to be messy and toxic in the same way others can. However, it’s important to remember romance is fiction in the same way horror is fiction. They aren’t supposed to be manuals on how to act or think. I also think you have to differentiate between “normal romance” and “dark romance” bc the lines for what is acceptable is very different between the two. I do get where people are coming from when you consider young people reading and not really understanding that this isn’t romantic if it isn’t stated out loud, but it is not fair to put that on adult romance authors when that isn’t who they are writing for. I really don’t like seeing it in YA without it being called out though. Like it can still be messy bc you are messy at that age but they do have a responsibility to their readership in my opinion. I’m not a fan of bully romance yet one of my favorite romance books is a bully romance so I think there are times it can be done and not feel as toxic. The series actually has the female love interest as the bully of the other 4 guys that are in the relationship. We get to see her character growth which helped me move past the bullying. She also apologizes to each of the guys taking full ownership of her behavior and not just sweeping it under the rug like it didn’t happen which also made it easier for me to see how the characters could get past it. I mostly read indie romance and consent is usually done well in the books I read. Not every author does it with the same amount of grace though. A lot of authors will give TW for consensual nonconsent(cnc), dubious consent(dubcon), or non consent(noncon). I know for dubcon and cnc that I personally can only read from the perspective of the person that the action is being done to so that I know that they like it if it isn't stated out loud. I stay away from non consent myself but I have heard a lot of people talk about how it helps work through trauma so I'm glad they have it.

[@tinadoesntreadthatmuch]

Bunny is my favourite book of all time. I’ve read it three times. I read it every spring. The mean girl theme hit me hard, especially on the second re-read. By that time, I was already a year into therapy that focused specifically on bullying that I was a victim of. It honestly just feels so cathartic to see bunnies torn into shreds in the end (the last Workshop chapter). But I also deeply connect with Samatha and her loneliness. Yes, the female relationships are toxic in Bunny but the bullies aren’t glorified and there’s so much social commentary on education system and the toxiticy of it all and of the friendships. I also really like Fosco and how she contributed to bullying - it mirrors my experience in school so goddamn well when the teachers not only would not intervene and stop bullying, they would also using their power to humiliate me. So yeah. I resonate with Bunny a lot. Idk if y’all are familiar with the singer Melanie Martinez but she has an album K-12 that talks about her experience with bullying and the vibe of her lyrics and videoclips is so similar to Bunny - it’s creepy but pretty, basically. I highly recommend y’all check her out ✨💕

[@manumatcha]

Also THANK YOU so much for this video!! It is SO important to talk about these issues. I honestly cant support someone who makes comments like HB or who has this kind of attitude. We should all (at least try) to empower each other, who does she think she is that she feels “entitled” to bring down another human being, it doesnt even matter who this person is - NO ONE SHOULD FEEL ENTITLED TO MAKE ANOTHER PERSON FEEL LIKE SHE IS LESS. This attitude is seriously disgusting

[@heabooktubes]

Dark romance and romance have a different set of rules and expectations. What I enjoy in a dark romance is something I’m flagging in another romance subgenre. And for me, I really dislike when books vilify female side characters for such awful crimes as being an ex girlfriend or too popular. 😬 Over all this is a really interesting connection that y’all made between all of this, and I enjoyed it.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

was hoping you would comment bc ur a subject matter expert hehe also always love ur thoughts

[@bookswithvero]

Thanks for this video! It's so important to bring awareness to how we interact with the media we consume. For me, when I was younger I used to love reading about toxic relationships, which I still sometimes do, but much less. When I enjoy it now though, I have awareness of the fact that what I'm reading is not healthy and that I'm here for the drama, but I did not have that awareness when I was in my teens and early twenties. This is why, while I love the romance genre and believe that sometimes it could be possible to read about (and even enjoy) problematic dynamics without glorifying them, I do feel concerned over bully romances and romances with lack of consent because I feel like a younger version of myself might not have been able to differentiate that. I think there's also something to be said about us being drawn to reading or watching movies or TV shows that resonate with our traumas because it could potentially allow a person to engage with it in a safe and controlled setting and even reach some emotional catharsis. Ultimately, I'm just happy that this conversation is happening because it's such a complex and nuanced topic :)

[@monster-enthusiast]

5:33 I think it's a matter of purpose, which the author needs to be very clear about. Is it about the characters having a kink or the audience having a kink? Cuz I know why having consent talks would break immersion for a reader with a kink, but does the book and author make it clear that this is for the reader and not the characters? If it was about the characters having the kink, then yes having consent discussions are very important. The author just needs to be clear about who the kink is for.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

Ha ha my brain is too small to fully understand this, so maybe I’ll come back to this comment when I’m smarter lol

[@monster-enthusiast]

@@JesseOnKZbin lol no worries

[@visionary202]

I am so here for an Obsession-themed book vlog!

[@BalsapphicVinegar]

I'm 4 minutes in and I have to ask: why do readers like bully romances in the first place? My girlfriend speculates it is naughtiness, and cited a Lindsay Ellis video about romance novels: forced seduction plots allowed women to enjoy the thrill of intimacy without admitting they wanted it. For me, I was rejected and bullied as a teenager, and felt too pathetic to be loved or achieve things in life. One time I had a dream where a girl who I admired thought I was pathetic and told me to do better. So I did, then she called me a good girl and I melted.

[@ChessAndSunflowers]

Oof! I read a lot of romances, and it is my favorite genre. For me, a lack of consent is a huge turn off and toxic relationships usually make me uncomfortable. I’m not a fan, and I will usually stop reading a book or mention it in my review. We live in a world where consent is so often ignored or nonexistent even though it is so vital and important. If I wanted to maintain that, I would read nonfiction. But, I go to romance to escape and read fiction. Like, men are already trash in real life. Why would I want to read about them being trash in fake life too? 😂 I hope that makes sense. I love romances of all kinds, but consent is sexy and needs to be there. Y’all are weird if y’all think otherwise. Are y’all good? I love the idea of interrogating why we love what we love. I think that says a lot about who we are and what we have been through. It’s beautiful and healthy and cheap therapy 😂🥰 I definitely want to sit and do that with myself now

[@NFK8]

I feel like it all starts as kids. Wherever kids go to their parents or other adults about people being mean to them (especially little girls talking about a little boy who is mean to her) they always respond with "tHeY pRoBaBlY hAvE a CrUsH oN YoU." Uh, no. That is not healthy. I was told that as a child but fortunately my mom did NOT subscribe to that thought and didn't stand for it.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

good point omgggg

[@TheAquamarine4]

I find this topic so interesting and kinda healing for me to think about because I was ostracized from a bookish group not too long ago that was cultish and it really gave me mean girl vibes but that feeling where you refused to become mean so you were excommunicated because of it, but then accused of being the mean one. Very messy. There was gaslighting not to get into the specifics, but it wasn’t until like a month after the fact that I realized I had somewhat obsessed over thinking about the people involved and was checking in on them still because of some weird need. I just felt really isolated at the time and hopeless. I did eventually take measures to distance myself from the compulsion to online search or anything, but It also took me some time to ask myself what was so different about me that i was treated so unkindly and i realized i don’t fit those natural feminine bookish girl standards by any means, and I’m talking in the queer sense. I’m not the only person that I’ve seen being treated differently due to appearances and identity, but listening to you talk about how these books unrelated to bullying but moreso on messy minds is kinda exactly what I’m into with reading too, and I’m now realizing how much our enjoyment in the various online bookish communities is often dependent on our appearances/aesthetic which rather sucks, but obviously this is one space I find more welcoming. In any case, I adore books about unreliable narrators and anti-hero minded characters soooo much. It’s so interesting to me how we’ll excuse certain characters actions for whatever reason just to call them “hot” or “funny/fun” or “misunderstood” or even “justified for x reason.” My least favorite is when a character is called out for being in a bully romance and is non-white but then a white boy is considered “justified” by many fans because of their traumatic past when the first character also has a traumatic past. I wish there was a bit more equality in the bookish community but honestly it’s unsurprising I’ve just never been in a place other than online where multiple people are so hungover books. I appreciate the book recs and wish i could think of something to recommend too:)

[@julioolioopreads]

5:20 I’m not a huge romance reader but I like some lighthearted ones, and I don’t enjoy toxic romances, but I wonder if when people say “discussions of consent turn them off” it’s because it takes away from part of the fantasy in romance that this is your true love and he doesn’t need to ask because he implicitly knows what you do or don’t really want”. And also I think that until recent years there haven’t been many good examples of what sexy consent can look like

[@muddywatersbookshelf7758]

Jesse, you are raising great questions to the book community!! Thank you for such an important discussion.

[@averymello437]

I really enjoy books with toxic characters, and even books about toxic relationships, but only ones that are self aware on how toxic they are. If a book presents a pairing where someone is emotionally abusive or a bully and the point of the books is, well just love them anyway, or you can fix them, or they'll stop being terrible if you can get them to love you enough, then I just fully check out. I think fiction can be a great way to explore morally grey, toxic, or even outright villainous behavior in a safe way, but it's irresponsible or naive to believe that it has no effect on how some people will interact with the world around them. I know a lot of women who date men who only ever go for the 'bad boy' types because media tells them they'll have a heart of gold, or are fixable. I also know a lot of women who think they can be emotionally violent to their partners because the media they consume tells them it makes them quirky and cool. It's absolutely possible to read these things mindfully, or detach yourself from them. But I feel like a large part of the intended audience just doesn't do so. Not a romance, but Boy Parts by Eliza Clark is about a fetish photographer who goes on a drug and alcohol fueled downward spiral when shes given a chance to be in an art exhibit. She's 100% a mean girl, develops a bit of an obsession with a guy she wants to model for her, but there's a subplot about her incredibly toxic relationship with her best friend (sort of ex-girlfriend) who is very much obsessed with her, to the point of running a blog about their relationship. Its a thriller horror with a trigger warning for SA, Drug use, and a bit of gore/body horror. I'd also recommend Things Have Gotten Worse Since We Last Spoke but I know y'all already read that one.

[@AbiofPellinor]

There's enough mean girls irl, I don't need them in my books too 😅

[@JesseOnYoutube]

abi omg

[@suzannewdowik]

I don't read romance, but one of my best friends is an avid romance reader, and she would LOVE to see more consent and more discussion of consent in romance novels. Obviously she's only one voice, but figured I would share her opinion here as it's relevant

[@kurapikakurta3863]

@5:36 I'm aro/ace. I already find it hard to connect with romance in movies/books. I don't like them that much. The only time I feel giddy about fictional romance is if they're not the main part of the story or if they're queer romance. The best way to turn me off from a book/movie is by showing a toxic relationship or not having consent in it. Also this bully to romance thing. Nah ah. I don't understand how that's supposed to be fun!!! It stresses me out when I read about it.

[@kurapikakurta3863]

I've also read some romance book with consent in them and I thought they were cute so I don't think the consent part takes away from the reading experience. However, that's probably just me.

[@CityGirlWriter]

I never thought of our society’s obsession with obsession. It’s interesting to see how the book community also loves obsession between women. I am not familiar with it but I have been curious since many people tend to recommend Bunny 🐰 by Mona Awad a lot. I would like to see y’all do a books about female obsession reading vlog. I think that would be really cool.

[@caroline856]

I love enemies to lovers books but bully romances makes me want to cry, I can't even begin to imagine me falling in love with my bullies, going around daydreaming and getting butterflies over people who tried to ruin my life... absolutely not. It's so weird how it's always "well the bully had a difficult time growing up and lots of trauma, so it's okay" because ??? what- I always appreciate these types of videos, and the care and work that goes into them. I appreciate yall taking the time to go through this and actually educating people, because it seems like yall always try to understand people even though you disagree and see the issue in something. Sometimes I watch yalls videos and I think about it for days, eventually going back to it and rewatching to take it all in, and I usually always end up agreeing because of all the good points and the perspective yall bring. So honestly thank you for creating such important and good content, I appreciate it all.

[@caroline856]

ALSO that being said, I do understand that you can't control who you fall for and that sometimes the heart makes this weird connection with people who treat you horrible, and it's not something you can control. Even though I never fell for any of my bullies, I've still loved people I knew were toxic and bad for me, so I'm not any better myself. Reading about those types of romances and there being no actual accountability makes me uncomfortable.

[@kurapikakurta3863]

Took me a while but I finally got to finish y'all's video. I just want to say, I'm soooo incredibly grateful for what y'all are doing. My love for reading started out only a couple of years ago so I'm really new at this. Jesse, y'all's videos has helped me so much in developing healthier relationship with the books that I read. I've learned that it's okay to enjoy the works that we read. However, it's equally as important to analyze them and see everything about them: the good, the bad, etc and to be mindful when recommending them because some of these works might be potentially hurtful towards others and maybe towards myself as well. Heck I don't initially notice the problems in these works myself that's why I value booktubers such as y'all who give such nuanced discussion on books because I learn so much from them and I'm also starting to notice these things myself. I wish more booktubers would provide more honest discussion surrounding these books such as y'all. It's sometimes hard to trust contents from such creators especially when these issues are ignored because we all know that they could be harmful to certain readers and it seems like they don't seem to care or maybe in their desire to stay apolitical they fail to notice that they're alienating a lot of folks. Anyways, please excuse the huge ramble 😅

[@rachaelburr8821]

I am new to your channel but I am so glad that I have started to watch your videos. This video in particular really made me think about my own relationship with reading. Throughout my teens when I was getting into romance stories, I didn't have a lot of money so I read a lot of wattpad. Not all writers on there participate in this, but it was not until recently that I realised how many stories on there romanticize abuse, obsession, stalking, non-consent, controlling and toxic relationships. I started thinking after watching your video about where these writers got there inspiration from and how many young teens would be reading these stories. The stories on wattpad definitely affected me and I am still healing and trying to figure out what a healthy relationship would look like. Then I also thought about how popular these "tropes" are amongst romance books published on kindle and in physical format today. Again, not everyone does this. How do teens and even adults learn about what a healthy relationship is when there are so many examples in literature and the media of romanticized toxicity in relationships? I really admire you for challenging this subject. This is such a healing video ❤

[@Blue-zc9ro]

I’m not a romance reader…. But I heard someone once use an analogy of “you wouldn’t expect that just because someone watches the Fast and Furious movies, they will be a dangerous driver, but if the ONLY education for how to drive that people was the Fast and Furious movies, we would all die on the road”. It’s okay for dark romance to be consumed as a form of entertainment that’s understood to be not realistic. However if that’s the *only* education on how relationships work that young people get, then it becomes dangerous. So the issue isn’t actually romance books themselves, it’s whether we as a society are invested in making sure that young people get good, grounded healthy relationship and s*x education that prepares them for adult relationships and teaches the difference between fantasy and reality.

[@NoOrdinaryScholar]

Essay fair warning 💖💖💖 1. I had such a different understanding of what Bully Romance was supposed to be. I had always thought of back and forth teasing and poking fun that is more of a game between the two. Especially because I hung out with a lot of guys growing up and that's how we'd interact but there were always boundaries because we wanted everyone to be laughing together. I realized how much I couldn't do a romance where they're actually just cruel to the love interest with The Final Strife. In the beginning, it was very clear there would be a romance, but Shylah was so cruel to Anoor that I was just deeply uncomfortable with the idea of them getting together. I NEEDED the author to show that growth, change, and accountability. 2. The way you're talking about the lack of proper condemning of bad behavior of characters is giving me flashbacks to the Dahmer fetish era on these sites. 🫠🫠🫠 3. One of these days I will make a video on how Regina George was actually not the bad guy 🤣🤣🤣

[@Sarah.reads.sometimes]

The idea of a “bully romance” is mind boggling to me. I just don’t see the appeal. I refused to read romance for a long time because of the misogynistic themes in a lot of them, but have recently liked a lot of more contemporary romances that specifically address consent. It’s sad but I was surprised when I first read someone asking if it was ok to do what they were doing, or a character making their partner’s enjoyment a priority over their own. Now if I don’t see that, I’m suuuuper uncomfortable.

[@TSfan217]

I would love a wlw obsession vlog! 😄 honestly I’ve never really gotten into bully romances, but I’m a sucker for enemies to lovers and mutual obsession 😂

[@ashleytune1598]

I have Milk Fed but haven't read it yet. After I bought it, I heard some mixed reviews, so I haven't prioritized it, but after hearing how much y'all liked it, it just moved closer to the top of my list!

[@avsambart]

Bully and romance shouldn't even be in the same phrase imo *cries* I will say though, I do like me some Bunny, Gossip Girl, and Mean Girls stories - especially a group messy, rich, privelidged people going after each other is just so satisifying for me to consume in books/tv/movies.... but if it's less well off people being bullied, attacked, or hurt by people in a higher position or if it's very much victim-bully and not an equal fight on either side, then I really don't like it because of my own bullying experience, but I am a supporter of people writing/drawing/reading to deal with their own trauma (I do it with my other traumas too just not the bullying one). And the whole "they're only bullying you cos they like you," excuse, I really do not like it. BUT with REAL people like Selena, I completely put my foot down. I hope Selena Gomez is okay. Female-Female content? I welcome all of it!

[@SabrinaMSabrinasStories]

Oooh gosh it's been a really long time since I read it so I don't know if it holds up, but Dangerous Girls by Abigail Haas really got a hold of me with it's toxic, obsessive female friendship. Same goes for Give Me Your Hand by Megan Abbott. I'm actually in the library queue for The Honeys, so I'm hoping to read that very soon! Great video, I loved considering your nuanced take on this topic - it really is interesting to try and understand why we enjoy the tropes/themes we enjoy. I've definitely had a couple of my own uncomfortable realisations to do with that over the last few years :') As for the consent issue in fiction - I don't want to say every single romance book must have explicit consent discussed on page, but I feel there should at the very least be content warnings or an author's note about that before readers get into the book. And, as I see some other commenters have mentioned, it is different (in my view) when it comes to YA vs adult romances. Once again - great video!

[@joubert350]

Quite frankly as an avid reader who reads a lot of romance, I personally get triggered whenever a character is being a bullied by the love interest or when they don't ask for consent during a sex scene, that includes toxic romance dynamics in fiction. It is terrifying, an automatic DNF. It is a major MAJOR turn off for me. IT should not be normalized / romanticized at all, even if it's fiction. I dont wanna yuck on anyone's yum but as yall said, people should definitely assess why they love these types of romances, romantic relationships in books. It is definitely worth questioning.

[@tracyascher7887]

Great video Jesse. I recently read Stargazer by Laurie Petrou which is the epitome of a toxic female friendship. Also I feel like In My Dreams I Hold A Knife by Ashley Winstead kind of explores toxic relationships. Same with her other book The Last Housewife. I think people liking these stories is similar to the saying “It’s like watching a car crash. You can’t look away”. Okay I’m done rambling lol

[@themusicsnob]

Thank you all so much for making this video. This is such an interesting and relevant topic. I personally have a really hard time reading romance books that don’t have clear consent because I find that triggering to read. That being said I very much respect that people come to romance and erotica for many different things and I don’t want to yuck anyone’s yum. But I also definitely agree with you that when we are drawn to stories with complex problematic elements it can be really important to interrogate why that is and also definitely to share important context with readers (please 😂). I think you all do a good job of providing context when reviewing and that is one reason I love this channel

[@esliet]

Interesting and important video. Thank you for discussion

[@JesseOnYoutube]

thank you for watching

[@witchymay]

I got a book about obsession and a book that.... feels related but I haven't finished. 1. Quicksand by Junichiro Tanizaki. It was published in 1928 and it's been a while since I read it but a woman marries a really dull man. She meets a woman in an art class and becomes obsessed with her. I liked it. It feels very modern despite being older than my grandparents. 2. Tell Me I'm Worthless by Alison Rumfitt which I'm actually surprised you didn't mention! It's new(-ish). The author and main character are transwomen. The MC's life has spiraled since she and her besties spent a night in a haunted house. There's a lot of discussion about transphobia and is kinda hard to read at sometimes but it's horror so I didn't expect it to be kind. I'm like half-way through. Also, your interpretation of Milk Fed is soooo different from mine. Which is fine, of course! But I kinda wish you wouldn't say it's body positive without mentioning all of the ED discussion in it. It's not a cute, fluffy read at all times. I definitely don't see it as a romance.

[@portiakunz3378]

I’m happy to see some Milk Fed discussion! I didn’t really enjoy it personally but I like hearing other perspectives. I liked the depiction of an eating disorder but I didn’t appreciate that the fat character existed as a vehicle for the thin character’s healing.

[@alentia_thegreat]

**Content Warning for mentions of trauma** When I first watched Fifty Shades (I tried reading it but I didn't like the writing) I thought it was 'so romantic' and lovely. I remember my friend commenting on how awful it was and abusive but I couldn't see it, a few months later, I had started therapy and started digging into a whole heap of trauma and then I was able to look at Fifty Shades and go 'oh, maybe, just maybe, this is actually a bit gross and abusive?' After that my whole outlook changed. I don't read romance very much, as it can be quite triggering for me but I really can't deal with abusive non-consensual stuff.

[@Marie45610]

I've read a handful of bully romances in the past, and while they've never really stuck with me as a "true romance", I think many of them could be done better. Sometimes the bullying does take place on-page during the time they're "falling in love" and those never sit right with me. If the bullying were flashbacks or something, and the falling in love part was in the present I think it would be less toxic.

[@bicho6313]

I can empathize with that because I also had a crush on my bully as a child and then I realized that a lot of that was society's conditioning. I was taught that when a boy likes you he's mean and that makes me desirable. So I worry that people reading these books are being conditioned the same way. I don't think we should shame people for liking what they like but we should also talk about these books and the dynamics they glorify. For example this idea that if a guy is mean and your love changes him you're somehow special. Trying to get validation from an asshole is never going to lead to real self love. Self love is accepting yourself and surrounding yourself with people who already see that not trying to prove something by changing the mind of someone who doesn't. Sure many people who read romance know this but also many others, especially younger ones, don't. So it's OK to have these discussions about romance novels with toxic relationships.

[@aliciaguzman]

Personally I dont like reading romance books that dont involve consent although I feel like most people feel like consent isn't "sexy" when it can be and is. I think just like any other trope consent can be done in a good way and in an awkward way.

[@janetgriffin7779]

I never really thought about the bulky romance trope because I don’t really read that genre of romance. But now y’all have me thinking about it. Thanks for this. Also, I have a copy of Brutes as well so can’t wait to hear y’all’s thoughts!!

[@OliviasCatastrophe]

Love this discussion and it is timely and important as well! i actually like the books which are about mean feelings to friendship and working together - I think that is more natural and works better? But enemies to lovers is not something i really love...

[@kiandrarodgers3436]

Jesse y’all might like Paradise Rot by Jenny Hval! It’s a translated work, it’s about obsession and queer awakening, and has this unsettling decaying atmosphere

[@bex9708]

Whew the moment y'all mentioned how non thin women aren't always celebrated as much resonated with me. By resonated, I mean hit me like a train. I appreciate y'all's thoughts about obsession and bullying, it gave me a lot to think about regarding my own preferences 😅

[@MoJordanReads]

This was such an interesting conversation. I have so many thoughts but can't possibly process all of them but I really love that you took the time to share all of your thoughts and I very much agree with you. I think you should check out The Last Tale of the Flower Bride by Roshani Chokshi!

[@Dasha-pv1xk]

bully romances are sooo fucking weird to me....i remember a couple years ago when punk 57 was once again gaining popularity and I was sitting there thinking i read this book....this was toxic and horrible ?!?!

[@StoryManifestors]

This was such an interesting take! Mean girls/any kind of bully romance is often a DNF for me, probably because of my own experiences with being bullied. But I hadn't considered how the same background could draw you to these types of books. Reminds me again that storytelling is endlessly fascinating in how it heals us, growth us, affects us. Plain Bad Heroines is good example for these intense female friendships (bleeding into romances on occasion) I think. I couldn't stand the book for that aspect as well as some consent issues, but this video makes me look at it in a different light.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

omg i HATED plain bad heroines so much!!!!! i dnfd so fast. the boredom was real

[@StoryManifestors]

@@JesseOnKZbin So glad to hear it wasn't just me 😄 I somehow managed to finish it, but it only got worse. The past tense femme sounded aro to me, but the butch pressured her into a romantic relationship that became more and more abusive but somehow the narrative was showing her as right and the loving one?? Urgh. And then it became weirdly homophobic against gay men in my opinion... You definitely didn't miss much! Also, thank you for keeping my away from Evelyn Hugo. People kept telling me to read it but the more I learn now, the glader I am to have avoided it 🙈

[@StoryManifestors]

Oh, have you read the novella Down Among the Sticks and Bones by Seanan McGuire? That one is centered around sisters, but it's probably the best heartbreakingly toxic female friendship/rivalry I've read. Absolutely beautiful and explores the childhood trauma behind it.

[@sophiemurphy9711]

I love romance books but can’t stand toxic relationships and the lack of consent. I will literally stop reading the book over it, I’m not interested if there’s no discussions of consent or one person is bullied into dating the other person

[@13THEMIS]

I I honestly didnt even know bully romances were before these video

[@JesseOnYoutube]

lmaoooo

[@ScullyPop]

Your channel looks phenomenal.

[@carolm.7279]

I’d love to see the female obsession vlog. I don’t read a lot of books with that topic and as someone who’s had complicated relationships with toxic and manipulative women, I’m curious how it’s handled.

[@YukiiReads]

Okay this is an interesting video, Idk where but somewhere I read these social media algorithms work in such a way that people with conventionally attractive or symmetric features would get recommended more. I don’t know about the validity of this, but I think it goes well with what you said about readers with certain aesthetics getting boosted more, of course no hate to anyone as I’m so happy about book content getting more popularized in any form, but it’s interesting to analyze what gets promoted more by these algorithms.

[@katiec.3533]

are "tall" girls usually the ones featured in #hotgirlsummer and such, and gaining popularity and platforms? i feel like it's often small girls, both skinny and short, who are enshrined, but idk. great video, i love how open yet inquisitive it is!

[@bookish.terror]

Hm. As a queer person, mainstream cishet romances - whether they're regular romance or dark/obssessive romance - don't often do anything for me. But make it queer? Absolutely yes, I want to at least give it a shot. With dark romance, the more warnings it comes with the higher chances are that I'll like it! Because if I already know the content before reading I can just be like, "oh, yeah, I know I'll like this", or be like, "no thank you", and avoid the story altogether. Which probably explains why I prefer my romance, dark or otherwise, from AO3 where every little content/trigger warning is tagged. 😅 I think it also makes a difference that I mainly read romance by and for adults. A dark queer adult romance always feels ❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥 whether or not I ever end up reading the book! Like, I always get a little bit excited just reading a synopsis for those types of books. But reading a synopsis for a YA dark queer romance just makes me think, "eh, sounds intriguing but I think I'll pass. Hope the themes are handled well for the teens who are gonna read that!" I had to think really hard about why I like dark/obssessive queer romances because I was never bullied, and I'm also aromantic, so this left me scratching my head a bit. I could only think that it is a type of fantasy where I can vicariously live through these characters for a short time and then get back to my real life. But! I realized I've only ever liked dark romances if there is also some type of healing for the characters. If it's all just 100% toxic, I don't think I could like a story like that. I want the characters I read about to still be dark and villainous by the end but also wholesome? Idk, I'm not doing a great job at explaining this lmao. Maybe like semisweet chocolate! That's the best metaphor I could come up with. I'll stop now. 😭

[@ohladysamantha]

I agree with y'all about how we need to be careful to not glorify mean girls/bullying behavior in books. Consent is absolutely important in romance! Not a turn off at all for this romance reader. In fact, I feel like some of the "old school" romances are hard to read because folks weren't largely having these conversations about consent and the fact that the heroes were all very "alpha." I'm not a bully romance fan at all. I'm just disappointed but not surprised sadly about the folks who said shit like conversations about consent take them out of romance. I can find so many examples of it being so damn HOT to hear main characters in romance ask for consent. And it is possible to find that in ALL subgenres.

[@wonderfulkitty]

I feel like you'd really love Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan series.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

Oooo ty will check it out!

[@mikalas_nook]

This video was amazing. Just peak content 👌 you bring so much value to booktube!!! ❤

[@hitatchiqueen]

LMAO @ the pause/paws

[@angelaholmes8888]

I'm not a big fan of bully romances anymore because to me it sets a bad example to a younger audience plus now that I'm older I can understand why people have a problem with bully romances

[@arimcphail4124]

I love books about obsession, i’m not entirely sure why but I feel it gets into the more primal nature of humanity, especially when it comes to women on women obsession

[@Lenka18s]

I AM an avid romance book reader and I have a BIG problem when it comes to issues of consent. Honestly, I see NO reason why in contemporary romance books there should by ANY issues with consent. Heck, even in the consent minefield which historical romance books USED to be, in more recent releases I see huge change when it comes to consent, heroes repeatedly making sure that everything is okay etc... my conclusion being that if historical romance books in general made a step in right direction, there is no excuse for contemporary romance. Also I can see (and sometimes make) reasonable points when differentiating between fiction and real life but this excuse only go that far. E.g. I can take a certain part of enemies to lovers "bad" behaviour (especially in fantasy) but straight up bullying? Nope. And lastly and I think more importantly - I am in my 30s, I believe that I have a better grasp of what is okay, what is not okay, not romanticizing adversarial conduct and etc. But jeez did I grow up with a (harmful) notion that if a boy is mean to you, it means he likes you - yep, I did. And I do not think that let's say 14-15 yrs old girl is edicated enough to see that this is "only" fiction and that she should not accept such (toxic/mean) behaviour from a boy..

[@pjo8128]

I love obsession tropes honestly but the kind that i'm more attracted to is mutual obsession and codependency. I experienced something similar to it in real life so reading books that deal with this subject matter is carthartic to me. Unfortunately though, a lot of m/f obsession books focuses on white cishet girls and ridiculously alpha males which to me as a woman of colour is just not relatable so i'm still trying to find the one book that hits it and would definitely appreciate some recommendations for that if you have any 😅 But these books look amazing ! i've never read books with female obsession so i'll add these to my tbr.

[@Nixx0912]

I'm not a romance reader at all, but on the bully trope there is a manga and anime adaptation of it called "The silent voice". It's about a boy who used to be a bully and became outcast because of his actions, on the day years later when he decides to commit a suicide he meets the girl he tormented and making up to her becomes what saves his life basicly. It's a beatuiful complex story not only about those two characters, we get a univers of different people around them, also how the school system failed a girl with hearing disability, about friendship, depression. I have a preference for manga series because it spends more time on developing the relationships and showing background stories of everyone, but anime movie is also very good.

[@kaylamoran3528]

I think I've got a somewhat unique take on obsession in literature, so here goes... (it might be long) TW - OCD I have OCD (which is so much more than cleanliness and symmetry, I don't care about either of those things. OCD can be intrusive thoughts about anything, as I'll be discussing a taboo OCD theme below). I also have found out only last year that I'm likely autistic. Growing up, I always had intense fixations or special interests on celebrities (both male and female, as I'm bi), and as I've gotten older this has caused me to develop a specific type of harm OCD where I became completely terrified and convinced that I'm an obsessive delusional erotomaniac stalker (this season of You hit different lol). I'd have intrusive thoughts constantly wondering why I was so fixated, and terrified that I was going to somehow act on my obsession and harm the subject, even though it's always people I've never met, and I crush on people in my life completely normally. I never knew that special interests were something I am wired to develop, and so I never understood my special interests to be that, I always saw them as dangerously consuming. (I have a distinct memory of me crying as a kid because I was scared of how obsessed I was with the movie Lilo and Stitch. I was terrified of obsessing over anything. People just became the most distressing and morphed into harm OCD over time) (If you don't understand OCD, you may read that and think I'm dangerous or crazy. I'm aware of that, that's how my OCD makes me feel too. That's actually one of the huge issues with OCD is it's so misunderstood that people are afraid to seek help, since they think they are monsters or crazy or whatever.) But I digress. As a result of this, I find obsession books uniquely triggering. Whenever I read them I become terrified and sometimes convinced that I am just like the characters and would behave just like them if I met the subject of a special interest. And so I seek those characters out intentionally as a form of exposure, since I know my OCD will only get better if I face the fear and stop running. I find when I get past the anxiety I am able to see that I'm not like these characters, I'd never do anything to harm someone else, and the fact I'm so afraid of doing so proves it. And I am able to enjoy these wild stories like everyone else. Hahahaha that was terrifying to share please don't judge me too harshly, I just wanted to add another slightly fucked up angle to the conversation. There's no take home message here, just a string of my thoughts. Maybe someone else can relate.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

Hi Kayla :)we do not judge you and are honored you chose to share this part of yourSelf. there’s nothing wrong with you. we’re really glad you commented. thank you.

[@kaylamoran3528]

@@JesseOnKZbin aww thank y'all. Figured I'd add my angle to the conversation, as I definitely view obsession in media differently than most. It's been so interesting reading the comments on this one for sure!

[@iana.2973]

Personally, I prefer hate-to-love romances when the two parties are on a relatively equal footing, at least when it comes to the back and forth. Like, perhaps the power dynamic is a bit fucked but at least the disadvantaged party has wits or some other strength that gives them the upper hand sometimes, allows them to respond in kind. Straight up bullying where the victim cant or wont stand up and have to endure just makes me more angry than anything I think, and it doesnt make the bully endearing to me at all. All I can think about is them being brought down and sometimes theres just not enough retribution/I feel they get away with shit too easily. I also love a morally grey character, or a villain, but I much prefer if the narrative is clearly like 'This is Fucked Up'. There doesnt have to be in depths discussions of consent and boundaries in every story but at least an air of 'what just went on was sketchy at best and these people arent ok'. I definitely understand loving stories about obsessions and toxic people (I love it myself). What makes me uncomfortable is how people will cheer on meanness as entertainment in real life, or worse, as a sign that the person is 'more honest' because theyre mean.

[@AnaCarolinaVanzetta]

Every time someone recomends me a bully hate to love romance, I think "I truly don't want to be reminded of middle/high school, thanks, but no thanks."

[@JesseOnYoutube]

lmaooo relatable af

[@AyceMcGee]

Depicting toxicity as romantic doesn't just exist on the page and I really wish readers understood that. Like yeah, you as an individual might be able to separate a book from reality, but the "he hit me and it felt like a kiss" mentality very much exists in the real world. Authors and readers perpetuating that as sexy and romantic is part of the problem. People look to those books to justify their own relationships and behaviors. A man who doesn't understand consent or boundaries, and is constantly fighting with you isn't sexy. It's not a passionate relationship. It's abuse. It's assault. It's manipulation. It's dangerous. How do you not see how either your experience in that relationship impacts what you read, or how your reading impacts your willingness to stay in that relationship because books idolize men like him? "Consent is a turn-off in books" is... yikes. Why are so many people comfortable with engaging in r*pe culture? Why are they so comfortable with a character, typically a cishet white man, who borderline s/a the main character? Why would anyone want to read that, much less find that sexy? Seems like a lot of people need to unpack how the patriarchy sexualizes their oppression. I think part of the reason why the mean girl trope is so popular is that white women like to mirror the patriarchy and claim it's revolutionary. They will bully, degrade, stalk, and abuse other women over a man. They partake in that abuse so men view them as 'not like other girls'. They will claim their abuse is different than when a man does it because they too are victims of the patriarchy. Their "empowerment" comes down to them mirroring the power men have. White women are the second most privileged people in the world. They despise that they're not first. They will play the victim even when they end up torturing and killing other women because "she had it coming" and "she should have known her place". Think about who else says that. Who else uses those words as an excuse for their abuse. Who else blames women for murders because of their clothes, minor actions, and disapproval. Women read these books and idolize these characters. They'll say "it's just a book" and "I know bullying irl isn't okay" - yet so many of them partake in public bullying. They side with bullies in Hollywood. They fawn over problematic women as the peak of feminism and 'female empowerment' because they too are seeking to mirror the empowerment of the patriarchy.

[@heyimsasa]

i get that people like what they like but, at the same time, people mirror the attitudes and ideologies they continuously immerse themselves in and that's what makes these controversial genres so dangerous. we're at a point where it's okay for people to openly bully people and they'll get egged on to continue. the way capitalism has destroyed our ability to connect with humans AS humans by promoting eeeeverything, privatizing everything, getting rid of features that allow people to connect with others and share culture, ideas, etc. like twitter and other social media are starting to region-lock tweets and put them behind a paywall so for example, a person in vietnam will share a tweet about things happening in vietnam and someone in the USA won't see it because they didn't pay for the blue checkmark. the future of social media is scary and i really fear for people who forget how to talk to normal human beings instead of whatever the fuck they see through influencers and people they don't know.

[@manumatcha]

Can you please list the books mentioned? ❤

[@SarahEverMotionBooks]

I also struggle with bully romances, and I would consider myself to be an avid romance reader. I focus on that genre/SFF/and nonfic. But I really cannot get into Bully Romance, it just makes me incredibly uncomfortable. It's the same with the Mean Girl and Obsession trope and thinking about it like y'all said I think it's because I grew up with a Mean Girl. My Mom was that "Mean Girl" and I was raised listening to her constant judgement and hate on everyone. I was always a big "tomboy" so I unfortunately was the butt of a lot of that too (lots of Mommy issues here 😆). So I think a lot of that stuff is a huge trigger/sore point for me. I've always kind of wondered, as I'm trying unlearn a lot of her toxicity, is if that attitude is a generational thing? Is that female/female hate something that previous generations used/normalized more? Which would, to me, tie into the Bully Romances thing in a way. Female/female hate kind of gives us an unrealistic look at what love and kindness should be. I.E. "Tough" love, Teasing, etc. I was also bullied, so that's not a genre I like (though I'll eat up enemies to lovers done right). Bullying is something that's more recently been challenged as a society? So maybe it's something some people lean into in fiction to deal with? I'm not sure, but it's fascinating to think about. I will say even though I don't read a ton of obsession/mean girl books I've definitely come across ones that I enjoy. I liked Bunny for sure, and the way y'all have pitched Honeys really has me tempted. I'd love to see more content on those, especially if those books challenge that trope or takes it apart and analyzes it. Amazing content as always! ❤️

[@JesseOnYoutube]

ooo really would love input from others on whether they feel mean girl behavior is generationally informed 👀👀 hadn’t considered this! ty 🙌🏽

[@SarahEverMotionBooks]

@@JesseOnKZbin Definitely would love more opinions on that. It's something I've thrown around but haven't heard many other takes. I definitely see it a lot with older folks though (granted - I live in the South and these old people can be nasty 😅)

[@HasabeMizurukara]

I really liked Bunny and The Honeys but I haven't read any of these others. I like the idea of means girls as a horror because it's absolutely horrific in real life. I don't like obsession books that feature romance.

[@chickenpermission4705]

For female female obsession, I think Pizza Girl by Jean Kyoung Frazier is a good read. I personally don't find those themes as compelling so it wasn't life changing for me but I can see how it could be loved by someone else

[@JesseOnYoutube]

That’s on my obsession book shelf and I can’t wait to read it

[@marzipan9]

Have you read Temper by Layne Fargo? It sounds similar to Astrid Sees All, set in the theater scene of Chicago. The main character is obsessed with a famous director, who is just an absolute garbage human.

[@JesseOnYoutube]

omg i LOVEDDDDDD temper!!!!

[@marzipan9]

YES!! I found a used copy on vacation last summer and bought that so quick. Loved it.

[@abbisaiya2797]

Would you be willing to share what booktubers you follow?

[@goshi_yachi]

Romance is one of my top 3 genres i always read, so i Love when consent is shown. I always dnf if it's pushed aside or largely discarded. I guess i could say is i want to have fun and see it represented as a normalized thing but im also not going to shame others if they want to read unhealthy/toxic romance, but yeah i dont like bully romance and the nonexistent consent in early historical romance books that had made me wary into starting my romance journey when i was in my late teens. As for female relationships, i can understand why people are curious and interested in diving into it i had history of toxic friendships in the past so sometimes i do check them out and i guess now recently see it as a way to cope and see the discussions of boundaries we people put in our own circles and in our societies. Ps i would be very interested in seeing that vlog about obsession. i just like to listen to yalls comments as well reading the comments from everyone elses 😊

[@johnsaxongitno4life588]

All I can say is that I never read a bully romance books 📚 love this video and your amazing fantastic channel prayers and thoughts for you and your amazing mother please say hello to your mother please prayers and thoughts for you and your mother love your Aussie family friend John ❤❤❤

[@JesseOnYoutube]

thank you John 💓💓💓 you’re a sweetheart and your rare comments make my day!

[@johnsaxongitno4life588]

@@JesseOnKZbin no worries I love your amazing channel don’t change a thing

[@lissette5523]

perfect example of a mean girl character glorified would be sharpay from the hsm trilogy, there have been so many videos where people claim that she was really a victim and not a villain when it was the opposite in the movies

[@JesseOnYoutube]

wait what’s hsm ?

[@lissette5523]

@@JesseOnKZbin high school musical

[@Clovermine]

I hate bully romances. I think they often get confused with enemies to lovers but romances where the LI picks on and harasses (on the darker end. R-word, stalks and mutilates) aren't something I enjoy. No judgment to the people who do but I can't get behind a LI who is cruel. I think Media literacy is important around more taboo tropes. How they relate to the reader and how they translate into the real world. I think that consent is extremely important in romances. Especially if that romance is attempting to show a healthy romantic relationships or are exploring different kinks. If you know going in that you are reading a Taboo romance then you should already know that it's likely not a totally healthy relationship dynamic.

[@PattyEverAfter]

The answer to the consent question is an easy one. It's still a fairly new concept in society. Thus authors don't know how to write it well. I've read old romances with consent that weren't even trying for that and it's sexy and sweet. Meanwhile, this concept in modern romances is awful and cringe. Hints more readers saying leave it out. Bad writers will have this sexy, confident guy asking 6 times throughout as if he's scared of being accused of rape. Other scenes, they've barely shared a kiss, 6 ft covid social distancing style, the guy will ask for consent like he's never met a woman before, least of all touched one. Its cringe, clinical, and the guys come off as creeps, not concerned partners. Authors need more examples on how to do consent well.

[@noellestradamus]

The Honeys did it so much better than Bunny. Bunny wishes!

[@avsambart]

Oh really? I need to push Honeys up my tbr then.

[@kaylamoran3528]

I'm not done the video yet but I'm answering y'all's consent question: I think consent is hugely necessary in romance, and lack of consent being seen as romantic or sexy normalizes it. Not all readers have the self awareness to recognize that the stories they are reading aren't realistic, and it could even minimize or belittle the experiences of readers, into believing it was "not that bad". I'd much rather see regular and consistent checking in be normalized and romanticized, instead of being something that ruins the mood. The ONLY time I ever want to see any lack of consent is when it's responsibly and carefully discussed in the text.

[@kaylamoran3528]

Might be me being triggered though. I had a partner who regularly kissed me without my consent, knowing that kissing often makes me uncomfortable. I haven't felt safe to kiss anyone since.

[@kaylamoran3528]

Also to me bully romances have the same energy as "he picks on you because he likes you" and that's something I internalized heavily and am trying to unlearn as an adult, and therefore I personally have no interest in reading anything that'll reinforce it for me

[@lusalma5404]

The only type of bully romance I get behind is akin to A Silent Voice - manga/anime. I do enjoy a yandere trope, but those are usually so overdone that they bear no resemblance to reality. I really would not want to see bully romances in most YA as they really need healthy relationship examples.

[@abigailb8206]

I think there is a schema to subgenres within romance. So I would also be a little discomforted by a lack of consent in contemporary romance, something a la jasmine guillory, Christina Lauren, etc the “mainstream”. Duke by default by Alyssa Cole (set in modern day) is one example where consent is plainly stated and sexy, he checks in with her before a particular move. Ali Hazelwood also has quite a few consent kings. I don’t think it takes much for an author to write a quick “is this okay?” Saying this to support and validate your feelings on liking consent in contemporary romance. It is most definitely a thing. That being said I do respect the bully and dub consent subgenre for particular readers’ interests. WITH clearly stated content warnings. I don’t want to fully say “kink” because that comes with connotations and not all dark romance is “kinky” in my opinion but definitely a valid place in the wide umbrella of romance for those looking for escapism on the darker side. I really appreciate you not yucking others yums and having a discourse about it

[@AdyGrafovna]

If we are talking about fiction vs. real life being a reason that bully romances are “okay”, it seems to me that clear and consistent consent is no less fictional than bullying. Readers should read whatever they want, but I wouldn’t mind seeing consent being romanticized more in romance novels. To me, it’s way hotter and I don’t see it as frequently as I would like to.

[@balletbookworm]

like, how many times does Selena Gomez have to talk about her medical history to get people to let her alone, whew :(

[@appleoatmeal4634]

Dont read them but I like books that make me cry to each there own🙋‍♀️😘

[@ΕυφροσύνηΜαθιουδάκη]

I would definitelly be interested in a video about books that are talking about obsessions, especially if they are thrillers. About the toxic romances now, I think they are okay only if they are not glorifying it. It has to be absolutely clear that the author doesn't write that kind of relatioships beause they think it's hot or whatever. Readers should stop glorifying those types of relationships too. In my experience, especially talking about white cis hetero gilrs/women and white cis gay boys/men in my country, they keep confusing masculinity with toxic behaviors and toxic romances (both in books and in movies/tv) are to blame ( not 100% ofc, but a big percentage) . I've heard the argument about "it's fictional so it doesn't matter, we don't need it to be realistic" too, and it's from the same people that glorified their toxic ex's behaviours as romantic until it was too late. it is definitelly important to have portrayals of toxic relationships in literature cause it makes it easier for readers to recognize it and talk about it without fear. But it has to be clear that what you read is not a relationship goal, it's the opposite. Like here are the red flags, run.

[@BoldBookNerd]

I personally appreciate it when consent is apart of Romance novels. My one and only 1 star read of this year so far features a romance where they male love interest treats the female love interest like absolute shit. I believe the author was aiming for it to be cute that they worked it out and ended up having a happily ever after, yet I felt icky the whole time. It's not my thing anyways.

[@Sad.Purple.unicorn]

I hated Bunny and also Bully romamces. As someone who has been bullied, let me tell you it is not fun people.

[@FormerlyknownasPonti]

Bully romance is just a hard "no" for me. Not my thing at all

[@Rhythmdestroyer3]

Oh interesting, I've never thought about the toxic relationships/obsession with mean girls. I never really got why people were so into Regina George. And I also watched Heathers and did not like that movie either. Maybe those movies are just not my thing. But one of the book series I read was The Clique and there's also the movie too. But I don't know if I've seen people talk about those books very much. Or Pretty Little Liars, that has kind of similar vibes. I read some of those and watched a bit of the show but never finished. I wonder what it is about these kinds of stories, and why so many people gravitate towards them.