Seneca's Stoic Take on Slavery is Still Relevant Today

[@EmperorCaligula_EC]

If you read the ancient philosophers: they told us all we should know. About slavery, about tyranny, all of it. And yet 2000+ years later, we learned so little.

[@kensurrency2564]

We are fatally solipsistic in that we believe we are more advanced than our predecessors. It’s just not true. We are just as stupid and ignorant as we always have been. We refuse to listen to wisdom, believing that progress means “better”. There is no substitute for the Golden Rule. Do to others as you want others to do unto you. Power and knowledge do not imply morality. Morality flows from justice and equality. We are all human beings. No less, no more.

[@ammoiscurrency5706]

I love the examples of Roman barrack graffiti that can be seen in Porta potties today. We can in many ways and in others... not so much

[@kevinkummerfield2377]

"We convince ourselves we are wronged so we can justify doing wrong to others"

[@jcmick8430]

A subconscious idea held by everyone who does evil

[@DEIMOS1483]

Don't misunderstand that an eye for an eye still counts as justice. If you are wronged, you are definitely not wrong to demand retribution or restitution.

[@aloksrivastava7938]

That's absurd. If we convinced ourselves that we were wronged, then by same logic there is no actual wrong if you do it to others because like us they must have convinced themselves that they were wronged. Remember, there is always a party who is wronged first. Seeking retribution in an unjust society is justice. It is not doing wrong.

[@jcmick8430]

@@aloksrivastava7938 that's how it is justified in the mind--it is retribution, not more wrongs!

[@aloksrivastava7938]

​@@jcmick8430 Okay, then how slave-owners justified in their minds owning slaves as retribution for wrongs done to them? Retribution for being made a slave can be a simple rebellion against the slave-owner and freeing yourself and protecting others from falling victims to slave-owner's traps which in turn forces the slave-owner to do all his chores by himself. Slave-owner being incapable of doing his own work, will suffer because he has become incapacitated by living an easy life. But, slave-owners never had any justification in their minds. The fact is, the wrong-doer who commits a wrong very well knows that he's doing the wrong. There is no justification in mind. There are only excuses he makes to convince others. All wrongs are committed with motive of profit or pleasure. Contrary to this, retribution is just done for wrongs so that wrong-doer does not dare to do the same wrongful act to others.

[@KasparOne]

This man has a remarkable wisdom for his time!

[@WildMen4444]

Good Gods, it is amazing how much empathy is being expressed by Seneca here. I don't want to start a flame war but I feel compelled to comment on something. Oftentimes I hear that only Christianity made the West kinder but clearly our Pagan forefathers were more than capable of going in a more humanitarian direction. I am proud of the wisdom of my ancestors

[@dleetr]

And how cruel were so many Christian Kings, to northern pagans, or amongst themselves or in between sects. Men can be good and evil, it's hubris and completely false, for Christians to believe they invented morality thanks to a magic man in the Levant. And worse, that they can export morality to other Races, through the magic of a magic book.

[@WildMen4444]

@@dleetr Divine men and holy books I take no quarrel with. I am a God-fearing man. I hold in awe the Stronger Ones. But to say that one group that emerged only 2,000 years ago has a monopoly on truth, goodness, and morality is just not a tenable position. Yet so many act like this is true and even insist it is so

[@and1158]

@@dleetr Are you not conveniently forgetting to mention the "religion of peace"? This is the real danger to the West, including to modern pagans (and the old pagans which were the first to perish by the sword in their expansion).

[@dleetr]

​​@@WildMen4444 their thinking helps justify their religion's value and place in history, but it doesn't take much effort learning about ancient Europeans, to find that Christian ethics were informed by Greek philosophy. When you look at Pagan Germans in the time of the Roman's encountering them, you see that the Romans found the Germans more chaste and they treated their women with more respect. So our values are biologically hardwired, and culture sits downstream from Race. It flummoxes me and I view as sinful, this Christian vanity based on lying, which disparages our upright and moral ancestors, as immoral without the intervention of their relatively new and very unoriginal, cult. If we hold Truth above all, we cannot fall into such petty thinking. But this is the way of most people, it's not the religion's fault that its adherents can be flawed. Most social structures attract unphilosophical, follower types, who see everything as a team game, with a hierarchy to monkey branch up. So I'm not criticising Christianity per se and certainly not a search for the divine. It's people not living up to that which they vainly espouse, which irks me

[@URProductions]

St. Patrick (of St. Patrick's Day fame) was one of many Christian monks adamantly opposed to Slavery. He wrote about it quite extensively. Not to mention the American idea that "All Men are created equal" has its direct roots to the New Testemant, that claims that all are equal in the eyes of God.

[@michaelfishman6082]

Seneca was amazing.

[@gooddog2001]

Slavery is officially abolished. But forms of it still exist in subtle was. Are classified as a felon, citizen or person determines how you are treated. Human trafficking is increasing and shows no sign of stopping. We do not live in a society where people rise based on merit. Those who are badly in debt, are they not slaves.

[@Madonnalitta1]

Only in the West. Libya has open slave markets.

[@cozmicmike6800]

Slavery is now " underground " , not abolished !

[@kensurrency2564]

Language trickery. We redefined words to hide the meaning. We relabeled other words to mask their impact. In our hearts, we still know the truth. Like George Carlin said, we use soft language to make us feel better.

[@RuiNobrega]

Excellent video. Do unto others... Thank you.

[@TheLegendaryLore]

Thank you, brother!

[@bromisovalum8417]

A man has as many masters as he has vices, as Saint Augustine said.

[@4g63t8]

I feel this one way too much

[@kensurrency2564]

Truth

[@noway467]

Human nature does not change!

[@armorbearer9702]

I get it. No man is immune to fate. Any man could become a slave and sold to another. Being a slave is a current circumstance not a measure of capability and character.

[@kensurrency2564]

“No slavery is more shameful than the kind we impose on ourselves.” Boom.

[@stevenmcgrath5114]

Reminds me of the Star Trek episode "Bread and Circuses" .

[@jasons5152]

Thank you. This video gave me a lot to think about, especially what was said towards the end. ✌️

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Now to modernise thease words you just replace slaves with employees.

[@DEIMOS1483]

No, we are all slaves and we should treat our slaves as we would like to be treated by our masters.

[@michaelh42]

Very good

[@chrismacdonald8014]

We are slaves with chains invisible to the naked eye.

[@MadeleineTakam_Info_on_Profile]

Well the solved all these moral problems, by making slavery specifically racial 1700 years later, so people never had the moral quandary of realising that slaves could be human like the master. 200 years after that they didn’t even have to see the slaves, for the resided on another continent.

[@Joe-po9xn]

It’s amazing they talk like this, but never seem to think, “Slavery is wrong. I should pay these people.”

[@TheLegendaryLore]

True. It must have been a tough nut to crack.

[@Joe-po9xn]

@@TheLegendaryLore Actually, do we have any sources from back that were just flat out anti-slavery? Even if very rare, there must have been at least one, right? It blows my mind to think something so awful could be that normalized. Did anyone object to gladiator games, for that matter (though I’ve heard it’s usually not to the death, and just til first blood; like a UFC fight). Sort of on that note, what was Christianity’s relationship with slavery as it became the religion of Rome? Did that really change anything? Or did views like Seneca’s at least become more normal, hopefully? That would be an interesting video topic, imo.

[@TheLegendaryLore]

​@@Joe-po9xn I have been looking for that for a while and found nothing. There were people in Greece and Rome who argued that slaves were human and deserved dignity, but none (that I know of) explicitly said that the practice should be banned - not even former slaves. Christianity did lead to more humane rules and regulations during the mid to late empire. It's interesting how the practice of slavery existed for so many years with virtually no opposition and wasn't banned until fairly recently, largely due to significant intervention from the British Empire. Even today, millions live in slavery, many in outright chattel slavery.

[@WildMen4444]

@@Joe-po9xn I think something very telling about human nature is that Christians were the ones to speak out against gladiatorial games but their reason for doing so had nothing to do with human rights. Christians were against gladiatorial games because they were tied to Pagan worship. That's it. It had nothing to do with people dying.

[@Moondog1109]

It really depends on the system. The lack of pay isn't what denies a person's freedom, it's the inability to leave, to say no or contribute intellectually toward an estate or government's decision making. Many slaves were paid and allowed to purchase their freedom. Others are paid but denied freedom. These systems usually place a slave's care and welfare on the individual. Other systems create (enforce) complete dependency on their 'masters'.

[@Xbalanque84]

Compassion? For _property?_ The scandal!

[@JamesWhite-cr5ys]

Amen

[@felixarmor7]

And yet the bible says it ok and even tells you how to treat your slaves

[@WildMen4444]

@@felixarmor7 Which is the same as Seneca is doing here. Neither the writers of the Old Testament nor Seneca were against slavery.

[@TheLegendaryLore]

While I'm not Christian, I used to listen to a podcast series by a Catholic priest talking about the bible. He presented the argument that the old testament was written for a philosophically less developed society, gently nudging them in the right direction. I don't know if I fully buy that argument, but does seem like a reasonable take.

[@WildMen4444]

@@TheLegendaryLore I don't buy that argument one bit. Christianity claims that God cannot be in the presence of sin. He cannot tolerate it one bit. He is willing to have people burn and be tormented for all eternity because of this. Why would slavery be the one sin He simply regulates? He was willing to tell everyone to cut off a part of their genitals but somehow isn't capable of convincing them to not buy and sell human beings.

[@tticusFinch]

​@TheLegendaryLore that's an idea that I've developed on my own over the years. OT focuses on actions and theocratic nation-building versus NT which focuses on the heart and community / church outside a formal theocracy. I think of it like how you may teach a child: you focus on the "what" (don't do this, don't do that) while with older children you eventually teach the "why" (we don't do this because...). Psychological development follows this pattern too. As a side note to slavery in the Bible. Note that it is specifically against slavery by force (regarding its own people). There's a passage that says if you steal a man and force him to be a slave, you'll be put to death, and if you sold him, the man who bought him is put to death too. So there was voluntary slavery, for example, if you had too many debts and / or could not provide for yourself. And there are laws about how you were to treat your slaves too, plus they were required to be released after 7 years unless the slave wanted to stay a slave forever. Slavery in the Torah / biblical times is a complicated subject is all I'm trying to say.

[@BigMikeGuitar]

These philosophical deliberations address causal origins beginning in the biology of human tribalism. Human tribalism originates through a synthesis of A. Ethnocentrism (“race,” xenophobia), B. Monotheism (a unique exceptionalistic origin story, including any prevailing belief system), and C. Ultra-nationalism (territoriality, blood heritage, sacred resources). These foundations and synthesis include a taxonomy of tribal instincts with authoritarian characteristics, which are directly expressed through in-group/out-group dynamics. Specifically, where in-groups demonstrate characteristics of exceptionalism, supremacy, and frequently expansionism, and where out-groups are considered lesser entities deserving of draconian intervention. The range of tribal in-group exceptionalism and supremacy exist on the spectrum of a supernaturally favored and empowered origin story, reinforcing ideological fundamentalism, compulsion to perpetuate a static Identity (status quo conservatism, hierarchy), “winning is everything,” narcissism, egomania, sociopathy, psychopathy, social Darwinism, and social murder. The range of draconian intervention regarding invasion/capture/slavery exists on the spectrum of xenophobia, out-group second-class citizens, class-based scarcity and austerity, abuse, petty torture, abusive torture, and execution. Many philosophical deliberations regarding the human condition in point of fact address causality produced by the biological phenomenon of human tribalism, the taxonomy of tribal instincts with authoritarian characteristics, and in-group/out-group dynamics. Enlightenment philosophy/liberal ideology misdiagnosed human state of nature theory, which is not tabula rasa individualism, regardless of how much liberal establishment social science defends it, or the too-big-to-fail Western institutions that are erected upon the exploitation of reductionist individualism. In addition, tribal in-group/out-group dynamics remain present in class relations, where exceptionalistic supremacist tribal identity ruling class in-groups address multiracial multicultural working classes as demonized out-groups, indistinguishable from a tribal enemy. No expression of human organization large to small escape the taxonomy of tribal instincts affecting in-group/out-group dynamics, even down to a handful of people running a social experiment.

[@wireshrub]

Ethnic in-group preference and all of the above is highly applicable in the modern world and quite possibly moreso if the West collapses or loses supremacy.

[@BigMikeGuitar]

@@wireshrub Yes, the world is brimming with volatile potential. To your point, when nations experience significant hardship, particularly economic, nations tend to rediscover a nativist/fundamentalist expression, where race, religion, nationalism, and militarism dominate. Meanwhile, American economics are approaching zombification (neo-feudal financialization/monopoly/rent seeking, dollar devaluation, existential Ponzi debt, unmanageable inflation, domestic austerity, indebted serfdom). America is also losing hegemony (failed proxy wars and sanctions, BRICS alternative, the global pivot East). And world multi-polarity is rising. These developments make America a dangerous place. Additional danger is caused by doubling-down on the failed policies of a faltering empire. Meanwhile, its peer competitors have declared the primacy of noninterference and peaceful coexistence. Cheers~

[@wangtoriojackson4315]

Please don't use AI generated art. It looks weird and the process of AI art genetation necessarily entails theft from and lack of attribition to actual, real artists.

[@notrolev2458]

You want him to personally draw all the images on screen like he’s making a cartoon or what? 💀

[@wangtoriojackson4315]

@@notrolev2458 Lol no? Is that what you think all other KZbinrs besides this one does? Stock images exist. Graphic artists can be hired. Channels exist that don't have any art at all.

[@notrolev2458]

@@wangtoriojackson4315 this guy is lucky to get 3k views a video. You want him to pay someone? AI art was a perfect fit

[@wangtoriojackson4315]

@@notrolev2458 AI art is never a perfect fit. Also why are you completely disregarding the other two possibilities I mentioned? Free stock art is available. And not having art at all is also free. Do you struggle with reading comprehension or something?

[@notrolev2458]

@@wangtoriojackson4315 I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but if you’re that against AI usage taking jobs away from people, why are you on KZbin? The site that uses constant AI in replace of a human worker. If using AI art is a problem, then surely being on KZbin, which uses AI to the max, while cutting jobs from people is an awful thing to use. You are currently support AI over workers.

[@speedracer6294]

Seneca did not say, "Give me a break". Calls this whole video in to question.

[@TheLegendaryLore]

The Latin phrase is "Di melius !" which, in modern English can be interpreted as "Give me a break." It conveys a sense of frustration or disbelief, hoping for a change or improvement in a situation when they feel exasperated or fed up.

[@WildMen4444]

@@speedracer6294 The person who makes these videos openly states that he modernizes the texts so people can better understand them with the same connotations that the original texts convey in the languages they were written in. Anytime you hear a modern phrase in any of the translations on this video you're supposed to understand that this was done to facilitate understanding