Sensibly Speaking Podcast #77: Dealing with Destructive Cults ft. Steve Hassan

[@michaelwagner8859]

One of your BEST EVER episodes! Great discussion. Love both of you!

[@Marrer]

Definitely in the TOP 5 of Sensibly Speaking History! Loved it.

[@lailaatallah1857]

Absolutely fantastic interview, Chris! For me, this was one of the most broadly informative, in terms of the big, global picture of cults, extremist religions, undue influence, the legal system, etc. I could easily listen to another 3 conversations between you and Steve.

[@vs-lg2kc]

Excellent interview and discussion Chris. "Undue Influence" and other legal concepts discussed will help the courts, judges, prosecutors, etc. understand how to combat these cults. So many good points, so important to hear, think about and apply. Great job.

[@apostababelindajames7461]

Freedom Of Mind Movement! I love this! I think Margaret Singer would have loved this too. A course in independent, Critical Thinking, Decision Making, Mind Skill Technics. As one who was born in to the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, having the BITE Model used with the Influence Continuum when I am involved with relationships or a group of any kind is incredibly useful for me. Thank you Steve.

[@SmittenKitten.]

I saw Mr. Hassan on Remini's show, and his interviews touched me more deeply than some of the others on the series. He seems so passionate about this cause, as much as you, Mr. Shelton, so this podcast was especially interesting to me. I find you both to be caring people dedicated to not only the eradication of cults, but of ignorance in general. Hope to see more of you two in the future! Really loved this!

[@aeolianartists]

Chris Shelton you are great and Steve Hassan is also great, his books are great, keep moving forward with your message, people need to combat group think and undue influence, it is possible...

[@sasbury237237]

Steve Hassan is such a wonderful caring and generous man. Anyone else think he looks a little bit like Brent Spiner now, who played Data years ago? Great interview, I learned a lot.

[@iBettyScientologyCritic]

This was excellent, thank you both. Steven Hassan makes some brilliant points.

[@maegs1982]

Wow omg that's exactly why I have such an issue with jw's. It's so nice to hear Steve Hassan, someone I look up to a lot, say that this hope for Armageddon is exactly the problem with the jw's. They say they care about poverty and people and the enviroment, but how much do you really care if you're not doing anything about it but to say, "oh god will fix it." So frustrating.

[@carolcyr8553]

I absolutely adore Steven Hassan and am really glad he was on your show Chris. I enjoyed this episode a lot. I do wish, however, that Steven explained the BITE model more often than he does. I was kind of bummed when Leah's show didn't have him do that also (although I loved his segment on the show - those tears were so real and true, they brought tears to my eyes too. I don't know that I've ever seen anything so amazing on TV). I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding why a person would fall for cult beliefs, which seem to crazy to us outsiders. If they understood Hassan's BITE model, which explains how cults control members' Behavior, Information, Thinking and Emotions, it would become more clear why many, many of us are potentially vulnerable to this kind of manipulation. When you control everything in a person's environment and teach them how and when to stop their own critical thought processes, you can get them to believe and do almost anything.

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

Very good point.

[@carolrogers29]

Yet another well done video, Thank you, Chris!

[@bonesonstones1]

I love your podcast, thanks Chris and best of luck going forward!

[@AtypicalPaul]

I'm definitely going to check out his channel. I hope he has advice for getting lingering visceral responses out of your system.

[@eskylent7962]

I love these two talking ❤

[@annep2693]

At 32:50, Steve mentions the Influence Continuum. Here's a link to itold.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/documents/here.pdf I had never heard of this before, and it's remarkable.

[@heatherbotez]

thank you!

[@jenniferbrewer5370]

Why would ANYONE dislike this???

[@bougiefever]

Jennifer Brewer - koolaid drinkers would dislike this

[@pinkpearl1967]

Because they're still stuck in Scientology?

[@all4jesus594]

pearl, As a freed exmormon, l can tell you certainly that kool aid drinkers are still also stuck in Mormonism.

[@spikeoramathon]

Bravo, gentlemen! It is high time the legal field - and the general public - must recognize that coercion exists, and that unethically persuaded, unduly influenced consent is no consent at all.

[@WWZenaDo]

I would love to see classes on cults, narcissistic manipulation & undue influence taught to every single schoolchild in the USA (especially since America exports too many cults, as it is). Unfortunately cult mentality is extremely useful to so many destructive groups in America (fundamentalist, apocalyptic Christian movements, highly controlling corporations, & more) that I cannot ever see such education being approved or allowed in our schools.

[@spikeoramathon]

***** I know! That's exactly what I and others are working toward. Right now, our European cousins have a bit of an advantage in the field- particularly with the UK's coercive control law and the French Undue Influence laws. Ira Chaleff is doing wonderful work in the area, with his "Blink, Think, Choice, Voice," movement, teaching pre-schoolers the concept of intelligent disobedience - the same concept instilled in guide dogs so that they have the independent judgement enough to say 'no' to a dangerous order. When a child hears an adult say something that doesn't make sense or feels wrong, the Chaleff program teaches them to take the time to blink, think about what they've been asked, make a choice, and then voice that decision - even and especially when the choice is, "no, I want to talk to another adult about this." Steven and Ira and Jon Atack and various others in the field are working hard - if you want to help, keep supporting folks like Chris, and (I know Chris won't mind me throwing this down here) take a look at our humble foundation, here: openmindsfoundation.org Hopefully, some day, we can instill this quality of independent thought, but I do agree that that day sometimes feels hopelessly far away. Here's hoping we can work to draw that day nearer. Cheers.

[@poppeyp1083]

Well said Spike. Jon Atack comes across as such a good person. I haven't read his Blue Sky yet but ideally will do soon.

[@irenemargetousaki880]

great interview. Thank you!

[@Amy-bn7hn]

yes, yes, yes, steve. i, after coming home from mission's work; I felt the same. I felt like (a girl's perspective) eating a good meal, allowing my mother to buy me a new outfit, having choices about my life's path, even being able to take a shower everyday, --caused me to feel spoiled and overwhelmed.

[@nancynightingale6267]

Hey, Flushing, Queens ! I grew up in Mineola, Long Island....just a few miles east of Flushing ! A Long Island boy ! Love this podcast, Chris. This man is soooo interesting.

[@jezebeljones4858]

Mental health 'professionals' refuse to acknowledge it. If you try to find help as a child, they label you mad. If you try to find help again as an adult, they still say you're deluded.

[@AtypicalPaul]

Great conversation. It's so hard to get past religious brainwashing. Even after you know what's real and not you have these inner visceral responses to things. Ptsd abounds

[@shannonobrien2572]

Great talk. Thank you.

[@joannegrieco8523]

You two could really help as expert witnesses in the case against Danny Masterson if they retry him, I hope the prosecution will seek out this type of help because it's needed

[@maegs1982]

That makes perfect sense.. I totally have the same desire. "I want to save the world!" Lol I think it's normal for people who were deeply involved and indoctrinated into a cult to have those desires. After all, I don't think just anyone gets involved with cults. It's usually people who have a desire within them to save the planet or people that are in the right frame of mind to unfortunately be duped into becoming a follower of a cult with its distinct cause. All cults have a cause, and ppl who convert or join these groups usually like the thought of being apart of that cause. It's actually a goodness inside of them that gets them involved. And once they're in it becomes extremely hard to leave. Most cults also apply the whole you're a selfish person guilt trip if ever you want to do anything outside of the cult doctrine or principals.

[@kaarlimakela3413]

The first time I ever heard of Love-Bombing (seductive proseletyzing) it was in relation to the Moonies.

[@kaarlimakela3413]

Mid-1970s.

[@scigrrl]

Kaarli Makela and Jonestown and Patty Hearst, with the daily countdown on the news. The hijackings. So much fear-baiting probably makes it harder to come out.

[@arleneosmond2474]

LOVED IT!!!

[@asho345]

I go to Queens College, how fascinating.

[@Arizona764]

Excellent.

[@37goodvibes]

wonderful talk. Thank you. I have just one query: Who painted the interesting pictures on Mr Hassan's wall? they look cool.

[@janedoe3648]

I mean the 1st amendment is absolutely essential. Very tricky stuff/territory. A difficult problem.

[@yogurtfluff1]

I like episodes that are about cults in general rather than Scientology as it seems to use similar techniques as a lot of other groups.

[@iganduyan07]

so tell, how are religious people more experts in mind control than the military and scientists? LOL

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

Where did you get that idea from?

[@iganduyan07]

look, mind control don't even exist in exact science, and most of them are only possible in scifi movies. yet according to steve hassan, religious people were able to do it to him and others in mass numbers. and i have been into many videos of steve but he never mentions exactly how they do it, but keeps saying the word "brainwashing".

[@iganduyan07]

chris shelton... you are a critical thinker right? please ask him that. secondly steve claims that he was made to go beg on the streets, and sleep deprivation as a consequence if he doesn't meet his qouta. that is illegal, how is he here ranting on youtube yet he never goes to the authorities?

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

The answers to the questions you are asking are all in Steve's materials. What happened to him in the Moonies was in the mid-1970s so any statute of limitations on illegal activities he could report on has long since passed. Plus, one of the problems with coercive persuasion and predation is that these things are not strictly speaking against the law, even if they are way south of any kind of morality. Steve has described in the book Combatting Cult Mind Control and in the book Freedom of Mind exactly how undue influence occurs. I've also talked about it on this channel. Social scientists have varying opinions and ideas about "mind control" and "brainwashing" and these are certainly not words that have definite and precise meaning which is why they are not generally used in academia. Social scientists actually do some but not enough work to qualify and quantify this but it's a hard area to do hard science experiments in. That doesn't mean methods of control don't exist or that people can exert undue influence over others by lying to them, appealing to their emotional weaknesses or convince them that someone like L. Ron Hubbard is an authority on topics he is not an expert in. If someone falls for all that and start adopting a world view that puts L. Ron Hubbard at the top of the intellectual pyramid, and that person then starts exhibiting fanatical behavior about Scientology, we would tend to think that there is a problem. That is the effort of this channel and of Hassan's work as well. I hope that helps clarify the situation.

[@markrichardson3566]

Amway is a major cult

[@markrichardson3566]

for sure

[@CalebBlock]

So is world ventures and pretty much all mlm groups

[@pinkpearl1967]

Considering the recent attack *against* Muslims in Quebec by a young white (presumably Christian) Canadian-born male, I'd say the issue is extremism of all stripes.

[@kevinmcdonald6106]

Great STUFF.

[@jenniferbrewer5370]

I rather liked the way Arnold Schwarzenegger handled a destructive cult in the film Conan The Barbarian; he destroyed the cult entirely with the single act of decapitating the cult leader in front of the assembled membership. Not sure cutting off David Miscavige's head with a sword in front of the entire CoS would have the same effect though. In the ancient world, you could DO shit like that; not so in the present day.

[@WWZenaDo]

Decapitating cult leaders doesn't work in real life, because there's always another damned narcissist waiting in the wings to take over the cult & followers if the leader leaves, quits, is decapitated, whatever.

[@lidahall5928]

WWZenaDo Plus, it would further "deify" &/or martyr the original Cult leading narcissist. I don't know if anyone here is familiar with RIGPA - but in their case, I do wonder what will happen when "Rinpoche whats-his-name" has finally sleazed onto his last vulnerable young woman (as it were)...

[@jenniferbrewer5370]

Like I said, in the ancient world, one might've been able to pull that off.

[@WWZenaDo]

But there would have been no lack of aspiring cult leaders to take over the cult, even back in the early Christian, Babylonian or Sumerian times, too.

[@nancynightingale6267]

We have a management of land, food and jobs problem, not an over-population problem.

[@ladynottingham89]

I don't know how often I'm going to have to say no to Jehovah Witnesses before they leave me alone. They come to my house EVERYDAY; there's literally a pamphlet on my door every time I come home. Whenever I'm in the house and they come it's always at the most inopportune time. They could see me working the plants, cooking or whatever, it doesn't dawn on them not to bug me. Ughhh!.....

[@marybailey-gates3116]

A friend of mine kept getting visited by the JW and so as daring as he is he decided to answer the buck naked holding a beer.He said after that they never showed up again lol.

[@Mirrorgirl492]

I'd be interested to hear what Steve has to say about the growing 'Cult of Trump' I'm serious, I would really like to know, because I am encountering cultish behaviour from his followers all over the internet.

[@markrichardson3566]

Steve knows his stuff 😂😁😉

[@joannegrieco8523]

My ex used to tell me, other than he'd unalive me, himself and our child if I left him, that because I'm an epileptic and would be a single Mother (he also called me fat even though I wasn't at the time and it doesn't matter if I am) that NO ONE would ever want to be with me because I'm "damaged" good's. He's a horrible controlling and scary Man and I'm glad I escaped with my daughter before she was old enough to remember how horrible he is

[@stephanierenee20]

I really hope someone responds to my comment. My question is, would Christianity be considered as mind control?

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

It certainly can be.

[@joannegrieco8523]

You need self before you can help others

[@jillanderson3665]

Thank you Chris and Steve! Deconstructing the past with your future self. Save your own ass first.

[@M73Kevin]

Falun Gong wants you to read the Epoch Times!

[@cormorant12]

You do not need to "misquote" the Quran, it says some pretty terrible things. The problem with Salafi (or Wahhabi) Islam is actually that it is literalist in its interpretation. And you could easily argue that they are right since the Quran, unlike the Bible, is meant to be the literal, inerrant and final word of God in its entirety. The Masked Arab has done the best series on youtube demonstrating with prodigious sources exactly what within Islam ISIS is basing its actions on. A different issue is that the leaders of absolutely all such movements eventually get drunk on war and power and start bending the rules to their liking, but the basics are there in the ideology. It is the moderate Muslims who (fortunately) prefer to concentrate on the nicer things within the Quran and hadith while ignoring the bad parts, or more commonly being unaware of them entirely. But it can be an unsteady position. Imagine a young impressionable Muslim being exposed to the "concealed from them" parts of the scripture and the ways this could go (explain away, "screw this religion", or "if this is God's word then this is what we should be doing, where do I sign up?"). Also, "nice" Muslim families can teach some rather problematic concepts to their children without realising the implications simply because it's ingrained in the culture, and that can make them susceptible to future recruitment. It is telling that former fundamentalist Muslims, including ex-members of Islamist groups, have either become atheist critics or are saying that Islam needs reform, rather than "oh I was simply misinterpreting Islam when I was in such a group or movement but the correctly interpreted Islam is just fine."

[@joannegrieco8523]

Most therapist's go to therapy

[@janedoe3648]

I think it's messed up to go after the very COMMON Christian belief that Jesus is returning soon. Not cool to conflate common beliefs of all kinds of people of faith, in this case Christians, with cultism! Cults exploit beliefs like that in extreme ways. E.g. giving a prediction of when Jesus will coming or acting like taking care of your family etc./nothing matters

[@GamalielJosh]

Matthew 23:33 . I feel pity on your soul. Sir Steven. You know nothing of what will come upon you. God bless you and I pray you change your mind and confess.

[@stephanierenee20]

You are under mind control.....

[@arleneosmond2474]

how can we get this guy to talk to the Trump supporters? They are all brainwashed also

[@cutiedoggy475]

Arlene Osmond no we need to unbrainwash the whole American public. We don’t choose a president and 2 we are not free. We need to take the power back.