Sergej Sumlenny - Lingering War Guilt Made Many Germans Prior to 2022 Seek Accommodation with Russia

[@markolytviak1062]

I cut the Germans some considerable slack on this. Three generations of guilt and shame ,mostly because they lost , will have that effect. My ancestors were on several sides of that war. My father was a lieutenant in the soviet army , raised in Donetsk while it endured the Holodomor and Russification ; his main enemy was behind him . Like with so many , our hollywoodized history can’t begin to approach the truth…

[@SiliconCurtain]

The truth is messy, of course…

[@toby9999]

​@@mitchyoung93Any evidence to support that claim, or do you always make wild generalisations?

[@juliadia007]

Wait, they feel guilt and shame because they lost? Meaning history is written by the winners and there really is no right and wrong. 1) i have no words to describe my revulsion, and 2) if Germany had won, Germans might not feel guilt and shame but they would have been living in a totalitarian nightmare.

[@markolytviak1062]

@@mitchyoung93 advantages came to those who fled ,mostly. Most of my fathers family died at the hands of the soviet state. What advantages are you imagining?

[@markolytviak1062]

@@mitchyoung93 your clever , almost. At the time ,the term”lytvia” referred more to what is now Belarus. Have you never encountered a surname with geographical before?

[@laurencehastings7473]

History is, apparently, written by the victors. Almost 80 years after the the end of WWII we are now learning, in the West, how Russia doctored it's own version of events. I personally, have learned more about events at that time, than I ever learned at school or from books about the events. This interview of a native Russian, educated and raised in Russia truelly exposes Russian attitude to both Ukraine and Ukrainians. His views and conclusions were very enlightening and I hope that his message permeates into Western understanding of the real situation of Eastern European politics and Russia's real ambitions.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I found this very fascinating and powerful too.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

The true irony being that it is now Putin who is committing genocide. Modern Germany is in danger of pulling a Chamberlain. War seems an ugly part of the human condition. The question is not whether you fight wars, but against whom, and why.

[@ginemginem]

I was honestly surprised by this interview. I didn't expect it to be even a quarter as insightful. Quite a bit of information and history excellently articulated. Will try and keep Sergej on my radar. I feel he is a true and genuine intellectual and expert (all of a sudden we have loads and loads of 'Ukraine experts' spring up in the last year or so)

[@SiliconCurtain]

👍👍👍

[@ginemginem]

@@SiliconCurtain I knew that the USSR and the Third Reich were allies. I know they strategically coordinated. But what I didn't know that they actually participated in joint operations. Hopefully this info will no longer be ommited from the mainstream WWII historical narrative. As an aside: I dont get why people that like Russian literature feel like they also have to like Russia. I mean, most of that literature is about how Russia sucks.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

@@ginemginem Much the same can be said about American “Southern Gothic” novels, or the “outlaw country” music genre.

[@tinayang3845]

Best interview yet!!! The mental picture of patriarchies Germany and Russia as rapists, violating a "hystarical & weak" Ukraine, will stay with me for a long time.

[@SiliconCurtain]

That was a truly disturbing image!

[@EeeEee-bm5gx]

Also, if you wouldn't have fought and just let him do it, he wouldn't have beaten you to pulp. Urgh 🤮 If only you haven't worn provocative NATO and EU application.

[@joanofarc6402]

This guy is fascinating! Wow 😮

[@jed4119]

Fascinating conversation thank you - I did read the story of Babi Yar when I was young, it is a truly horrific time in history but I have rarely heard it mentioned. I am not sure in our secular world that we are willing to believe that true evil exists, we think democracy and economic prosperity are such obviously sensible ways to live that we will drag everyone along with us. An arrogance on our part I am afraid to say.

[@AG21071995]

Please invite Serhiy Plokhy, Ukrainian historian to talk about the historical roots of this war. He has also released a book about this.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I’m trying. In fact have been since march last year. He’s a very difficult man to pin down!

[@AG21071995]

@@SiliconCurtain ah, ok. I hope you can get him :)

[@kkpenney444]

HIs analogy using feminism feels appropriate. When trying to explain to friends the position I see Ukraine and Russia in, I've often used the analogy of the battered wife. Russia is the abusive and chauvinistic husband that the wife was finally liberating herself from. The possibility of her thriving without and despite him so enraged him that he had to kill her. Sorry if that's laying it on thick, but it's hard not to see this dynamic (among many others) playing out.

[@SiliconCurtain]

Russia stealing children fits this analogy far too well too!

[@secularbeast1751]

I think Sergej is being kind. The more immediate links of former East Germans to Russia, like Merkel, also played a part.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I fear that may be true.

[@joesoy9185]

Yes, even now, there´s still a lot of support among the citizens and politicians with connections to the German "Democratic" Republic" e.g. in the far-right Party, Alternativ für Deutschland (AfD) and the far-left Party, Die Linke , which is the later version of the ruling Party in the GDR, the SED.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

@@SiliconCurtainI’d probably be a little more generous with Merkel-A lot of former East Germans came out of the Cold War with something not to dissimilar from Stockholm Syndrome. And Putin had been stationed in East Germany when he was w/ the KGB. He knows how to push their buttons. Scholz was West German but he was also on the far left side of his Party as a student in the ‘70s. There was a lot of Stasi infiltration back in those days. Ostalgia ran deep in German politics until, well, 2022, really. They’re still trying to shake it off…

[@teardrop-in-a-fishbowl]

Where I rather see the "Putin friendly" Merkel as "All for the German economy", rather than a ideological driven person. Merkel wasn't Putin friendly neither was Putin friendly to Merkel. The concept of having a (the biggest in Europe) good oiled economy no matter what and a "liberated energy market" (by EU law) made it easier to become addicted to Russian oil and gas. That's being said, other players in the "freed energy market" made a ton of money during that time too! Ask the Netherlands! Our friends in Poland, the Baltic's and Ukraine were pi**ed,of course. To talk about that it needs more time than the comment sections provides, or better said, I have to invest in writing about it. And these interests weren't only about "Be aware Germany, Russia bad!". Behind it were clear monetary interests. Over all, speaking as a East German born myself, the sentimentalism towards the former "Soviet Empire" isn't much of a cause why there are East Germans who are misguided in their judgement. But narratives and lies (set up by certain parties and the Kremlin) are highly exploited, repeated and shelled towards people there. And propaganda works well if people are in economic and social despair like it is in East Germany AND parts of West Germany. That's a fact! There's not really a affinity, or sentimental memories among those who actually hated the Russian occupiers. Why propaganda works for Easterners better than for others? The reasons for this lay much deeper than painting East Germans the way they are and it's a generational question too. There's no black nor white, in the middle we sleep!

[@markmitchenall5948]

Please continue!

[@TueLesPigeons]

It is the guilt that keeps on giving

[@thinker646]

I love his description of the patronizing patriarchal comparison. The power and control dynamic is identical in both situations, IMHO.

[@azerenatka]

Great interview! Sumlenny knows what he is talking about re Germany. There is a centuries old sick love-hate relation between Russia and Germany, that became very clear during this was.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

The German state is a rather fragile thing. It hasn’t been around all that wrong, really. It’s a country that evolved out of a military order, basically. Then that military order got beaten soundly in two World Wars & both the military & the country were dismembered.

[@keithschultz9406]

Thank you Jonathan and Sergej for your sharing your thoughts about the German guilt from WW2 … my grandparents lived in Poland with the outbreak of the War with my grandfather serving with the Red Army during WW1 and WW2

[@RunawayTrain2502]

Wouldn't the "Red Army" in a WW1 context be the Bolshevik insurgency in Tsarist Russia?

[@tanjalauramarketta]

For me as a finn this discussion was so eye-opening. Thank you so much once again Jonathan and Sergej!

[@timrustow]

wonderful guest.. brilliant

[@terryhand]

War guilt aside, the benign interpretation of Germany's relationship with Putin's Russia was that they believed trade would somehow make Russia become more like a Western democracy. I wish I could believe the Germans were simply naive, but I find Sergej Sumlenny's version much more convincing.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I agree. It’s hope over rationality. Probably worse motivations were at play.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

@@SiliconCurtainProbably a little of both. One of my college buddies married a German woman & has lived in Germany for 20+ years. We were discussing some of the peculiarities of the German psyche recently. Ryan & I agreed that Germans tend not to have a lot of middle gears, as it were.

[@karinfroller7403]

Please consider the biggest fear and taboo in Germany is fighting a war. And fighting a war against Russia in particular. So our government tried everything possible to avoid this war. They didn't succeed, but most of them, like Merkel, had honest intentions. Of course, someone like Schröder is in the pocket of Putin. He bought him completely after he left office in 2005.

[@kti5682]

If we had been anything else than short term naive we would have produced far more armaments with Russian gas than we have now. I mean what other options do you have? Hope for US to become isolationist and hand Europe to Russia peacefully, or put up some insufficient effort and dwell on the martyr syndrome along the lines of at least we tried to be nice.

[@karinfroller7403]

@@kti5682 "hope for US to hand over Europe peacefully to Russia"??? That would be my biggest nightmare.

[@TKMcClone]

The 'Regulations To Expedite Mass Burials' was a revelation that leaves a knot in my gut. It would be interesting to see,100 years from now, how Russian history is portrayed. Perhaps Russian historians won't be doing the writing. If this is the case, I suspect the age of 'Russkiy mir' will not fair better than WW2 Germany. There is an article "Russia Introduces Regulations To Expedite Mass Burials Of Those Killed During Military Conflicts" by Radio Free Europe from December 2021.

[@laurie9557]

Fascinating interview. Thanks to both of you.

[@davidg4026]

You need to have him back very soon. I really want to hear his thoughts on Nord Stream.

[@SiliconCurtain]

👍👍👍 we will also discuss Belarus, which he is very knowledgeable about.

[@pamelahalstead]

This was the most cogent and compelling interview thus far in your brilliant series!

[@SiliconCurtain]

👍👍👍

[@AG21071995]

Great guest

[@WalterBurton]

In addition to the incredible contribution to history, it's important to note---to testify, in "real-time," as it were, that Mr. Fink's interviews do us a great service by putting a face to the names that we read. And the word "face" is doing a lot of heavy-lifting there, as they say.

[@EeeEee-bm5gx]

Both a rare person who chastises Russians for being genocidal and a rare person who calls out their appeasers. Another interview where the host and the guest are of stellar quality 🤩 Thank you!

[@nadinabbott3991]

Sharpest tool in the shed, brightest bulb in the box, sharpest pencil. Nope, that does not describe Putin…you made me laugh

[@annemcleod8505]

Completely fascinating to gain these insights into the German/Russian/Ukrainian connections. Thank you, Jonathan, for another excellent guest. You are looking a bit tired and drawn these days - do you ever get any rest?!

[@SiliconCurtain]

Not much sleep… it’s true!

[@ST-vx3zn]

Thank you guys. 👍👍

[@dweb]

More than German lingering war guilt the true tragedy is a total lack of such remorse from Russians, appearently, about their federation's mistake in the Sovjet era initially collaborating with Nazi Germany which enabled the start of WWII, and in reflection crimes against humanity they were involved in.

[@Nyarurin]

they deny it ever happened. How can you feel remorse to that what is widely stated to be a western propaganda lie? The west allowed stalin to win - and by that they allowed him to create his own version of history that is still widely popular in russia. If only the west would not support ussr so much so that nazis would soften it more, and then after defeating hitler the allies would go and liberate eastern europe by finish off the wounded stalin's regime - i could only imagine how much better and peaceful the world would become.

[@ninaotan7811]

Sometimes it is better to relay on facts than on imagination. I am referring to Seva Novgorogtzev inability to imagine a book on quantum mechanics in Ukrainian. I do not have this particular book at my home library, but I do, for example: ʼЕлементи теорії функцій і функціонального аналізуʼ (Elements of function theory and functional analysis) by A.Kolmogorov and S.Fomin published in 1974. Or Курс функціонального аналізу (лінійні операції) ( Course of functional analysis. Linear operation) written by a Polish mathematician S. Banach published in 1948 in Ukrainian and later in Russian.

[@rafaelsanz3441]

It was disgusting how the orcs were mass raping 5 years old German children in 1944/5 , according to Russian sources. The see as war heroes a hord of children rapers and war criminals.

[@georgemiller151]

Russia was exceedingly humane to the Germans, considering what the Germans did to Russia. Russia would’ve been well within its rights if they simply euthanized all of the Germans in their area zone of occupation. After all, that’s what the Germans had intended to do to them. A few thousand German kids get raped? A few hundred thousand German women get raped? Well, you reap what you sow.

[@Billy01113]

Sorry, but I have to contradict Sergej. I am a German, living in Germany, and I do not know a single person that thought Ukraine should capitulate. I know a view who think we should not deliver arms (I am not one of those) but no one who thought Ukraine should give up. And even the ones who are against arms delivery are for supporting Ukraine with other civilian measures.

[@SiliconCurtain]

Thank you for your comments in the debate. Is there any difference between those in the east and west in the intensity of their support for Ukraine?

[@markus717]

At 10:20 your guest mentions that there was no mention of Jews being murdered by the Nazis, it was "peaceful Soviet citizens". As Sergej says, this is because Russia & the USSR had strong anti-semitic sentiments of its own, with Cossack units long committing murderous pogroms against Jewish communities. So if the Soviet people were told that the Nazis were killing Jews, rather than raise their will to fight and defend the Rodina, many Russians would have replied, 'Great.. saves us the trouble." Soviet propaganda is so chillingly efficient, Goebbels would be jealous.

[@SiliconCurtain]

Goeballs is clearly an inspiration for Soviet and Russian propagandists

[@gleichenalb]

You have so many interesting experts with in-depth discussions. I would like to recommend a book that changed my whole perspective on Europe and WW11. Written by a Brit Keith Lowe “The Savage Continent” deals with the aftermath of 1945-1949. While the Allies went home to parades the continuing ethnic cleansing, civil war, retribution and a continent destroyed the current politics are a reflection of that past. He would be an amazing guest on your podcast

[@geeboom]

Absolutely fantastic talk illuminating the background to this war through Russian eyes in a way I had not thought of. I will have to carefully listen to it one more time as the man has a thick Russian accent which made it somewhat hard to follow him for 100%.

[@ottosaxo]

Maybe, if it's impossible to bring Putin to the Hague, there could at least be new Nürnberg trials against Germany's business with Russia?

[@karinfroller7403]

Oh great idea! Very nice of you to mention it now. So maybe Germany should stop any support of Ukraine right now. I already waited for the moment, when all the blame would be put on Germany again. Greetings from Germany.

[@karinfroller7403]

And don't forget to put your bankers on trial for laundering dirty Russian money.

[@ottosaxo]

@@karinfroller7403 Ja, es liegt schon eine befremdliche Stimmung über diesem Zwiegespräch. Viele wittern jetzt eine Chance, mit angeblich jahrzehntelanger Putin-Voraussicht von ihrem eigenen Versagen abzulenken. Das ist plötzlich wie durchgestrichen und weggewischt. Was noch fehlt ist ein Sündenbock, über den hinweg sich das Nützliche mit der Selbstgefälligkeit verbinden lässt. Und siehe da - in diesem Gespräch fehlt der Sündenbock gar nicht mehr.

[@realhistoryplease4778]

I believe that there was one massacre in Ukraine that was bigger, and it’s often ignored. That is the massacre performed in Odessa by Romanian forces, possibly as high as 50k

[@gr12751]

Serjej will surely have his phones tapped etc for telling the truth. War is a disgusting activity of so called intelligent humans.

[@alleythetoaster8401]

My Uncle's dad, idk english term for it. But whatever, he was taken to Germany as Hasterbaiter, later send to Spain to unload stuff from ships. I guess some trade to Germany? But he escaped to Canada, on a Canadian Ship. Later on he volunteered to an Army and he partaken somewhere in the D-Day. Details are blurry, cuz this was banned to talk about in the USSR. But fact is he was garnisoned somewhere in Italy or something at the end of the war. Point is, he later on just travelled here to Ukraine to meet with family. He had some Canadian ID. And when he was caught by the Soviet army, for said ID he was deemed a "traitor" and they almost executed him, before some officer said to release him. Regardless, rest of his life in USSR he was treated as a traitor and a spy.

[@ericwillis777]

I always imagine events as being analogous to people around the edge of a safety blanket trying to catch an escapee from an upper story in a fire. Some think this way, some that, some happy to let him fall to the ground some want to save him. Some convince others, some follow.The blanket moves relative to all the inputs and their relative strength.

[@kyivstuff]

Important

[@lsees5753]

I don’t understand why I’ve known of what was called Babi Yar, since grade school, and why it was drummed into us that Ukraine was the breadbasket of Europe, we must always protect it; and that Russia always wants Ukraine for the land and the warm water port. I must’ve had some priests and teaching nuns that were Polish or Ukrainian, or had relatives from there. Or maybe it was the Bay of Pigs debacle? Then this faded away. My kids weren’t taught this. So, when was the curriculum changed? Did this change just happen in the USA? eta - my 1st grade (1958-9)teacher, a nun with Polish relatives, and they had networks in Baltics. Sr

[@lsees5753]

So how old are the both of you? I forgot to say I’m 68, you two probably could be my children…Maybe you’re the interim generation, where the curriculum changed. Fascinating last third of the interview.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I don’t remember having any kind of comprehensive lessons on Ukraine. We covered the holodomor, but these were still called Soviet famines and not a specific Ukrainian genocide. I took Russian history as a special topic from aged 15 through university to 23… and the coverage of Ukraine was woefully inadequate

[@lsees5753]

@@SiliconCurtain woefully inadequate for All of those countries. What I knew was exactly what I wrote above, a couple of sentences that we memorized and said back, and for only that one year, first grade. No adult in my family talked about the Holocaust, let alone the Holodomor. It was considered too strong for young children, and bad for the neighborhood, which was trying to get along, I see that looking back. An old German soldier lived in the yard behind us, and there was an old couple six houses down our street with concentration camp numbers. Across another street there were Polish and Italian couples, multigenerational tripledeckers.

[@davidbrancaleone3039]

Jonathan's channel deserves far more attention for the vital work it contributes on many levels to understanding this tragedy and who is inflicting it on Ukraine. I wonder whether in future the testimonies, the crystal clear analysis, the sheer range of the discussions, would make the basis for a book. One area it contributes to is understanding new Fascism and how it can gain traction. How a nation can turn its back on what its government is doing in its name. Fascism thrives when civil society is absent and a people disenfranchised. After Auschwitz, no more poetry was possible, Adorno claimed. He was wrong as Paul Celan proved. More Celans needed? How persuasive is the value of values? Our guard was down, because the liberal of liberal democracy was weakened by neoliberalism which replaced value with finance as the be all and end all. I commend this channel for the work it does. The only one, in my opinion, to span across the steppes of many bodies of knowledge in a quest of understanding and speaking out against lies, and manipulation. Well done.

[@SiliconCurtain]

I’m hoping the channel grows considerably over the next few months. Thank you for your kind comment. It’s absolutely my desire to find time and use all this material as the basis of a book, or books!

[@davidbrancaleone3039]

@@SiliconCurtain as a trained historian and published author of academic books, the depth of analysis and expert knowledge stands out to me as, I would reckon, exceptional. What sets you apart from most interviewers is your subject-specific contextual grasp. Sometimes, it can, admittedly, lead to more intervention than interviewers allow themselves, or have the necessary background to engage in. It also allows you greater conceptual flexibility. There are several levels at play and the discussions allow for that. Perhaps if the book was structured around a set of problems, one per chapter. You could have clusters revolving around the range of issues. Sometimes, the interviews leave me with the feeling of unfinished discussion, because you don't have the leeway, even with an hour or more, to get to the bottom of things. The one on the new Fascism would warrant more. Take this one, how myth, the creation of narratives, and lack of civil society, and abdication of agency, with the aid of media, onverge to magnify and consolidate it.

[@petrairene]

Yeah. Germany of all countries should know that there is no accommodation with crazy fascist despots. It already didn't work in the case of Hitler. And from what one hears about the propaganda in the media and the behaviouir of the Russian army in Ukraine, what Putin does and wants in Ukraine is quite similar to what Hitler wanted in France, Poland etc.

[@SiliconCurtain]

Unfortunately so. If allowed to, they’d commit the same massacres in Poland, the Baltics and Moldova. Hell, they’d even get to Berlin, if we let them…

[@petrairene]

@@SiliconCurtain Yeah, living here the dumb pacifists and cowardly "but our historical burden" faction are driving me crazy. It was my grandfather who fought in WW2. Soon all combatants of WW2 will have died of old age. WW1 and 2 are not the problem of the modern day German population because guilt can only ever be a personal moral response to one's own actions. Feeling guilty or responsible for what my grandfather has done is ridiculous. Plus, Instead of guilt tripping and find anything to do with military distasteful if there is any reflection about our history, we of all people should take responsiblitiy for it by helping victims of military attacks in any way we can. So that they don't have to go through what our ancestors infliced on others in the past.

[@petrairene]

@@SiliconCurtain While Putin is quite crazy, I don't think he would dare to attack NATO territory with military. But he did and will continue with indirect actions, like propaganda, trying to influence elections, giving online and other crime active in Europe a safe haven. He will continue to try to erode western democracies, pushing them more in the direction of autaritarianism. He will also increase the attempts to get a foot into the door in African and other third world countries.

[@WalterBurton]

Revisiting this, in light of new info learned about Sumlenny.

[@SiliconCurtain]

What info is that?

[@WalterBurton]

My replies seem to be getting automatically removed. I'm trying to post a link to a Twitter thread, which is a pretty good entrance to the Sumlenny rabbit hole.

[@jeffrnyquist]

Very interesting discussion. Is there any chance that Russia will go through an acceptance of guilt vis-a-vis Ukraine as Germany has? This seems almost impossible. Could a Russian defeat alter the false perceptions of the past? Or do we get a worse Russian leader who wants to try another war?

[@SiliconCurtain]

The chances are minimal, unfortunately.

[@sumiland6445]

39:54 you nailed it!! Exactly what I have said all along about the USA "providing" weapons and arms so slowly .... it has to be on purpose!! (I am an American, btw ....)

[@sumiland6445]

44:13 my former inlaws were an american army officer occupying Schwabisch Hall, Germany 1946 and he married a German girl, Hitler youth, daughter of SS officer ... she told me stories from the war that were horrifying. She was 14 when the allies came to her city. Unspeakable things.

[@kkpenney444]

You're just not allowing for the enormous responsibility that DOES exist with managing both a maniacal power with nuclear weapons and a 30 nation alliance. That responsibility lies almost solely with the U.S. now. I *do* wish they had a different policy, but I'm willing to cut them some slack, because to so many they will always be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[@sumiland6445]

@@kkpenney444 i agree, but super-slo-mo is how USA is arming Ukrainians at the expense of millions of Ukrainians' lives. RussianZ are exterminating Ukrainians in all occupied areas of Ukraine.

[@sumiland6445]

@Oblitus Operanti thank you for responding 🙂 🇺🇦 🌏 🇺🇸 I'll try to find some sources for you. To start, maybe do a search on Ukraine's official websites. God bless you. Be strong because you will want to look away

[@kkpenney444]

@@sumiland6445 No, it is *not* slo-mo. You're not taking into account the logistical nightmare this all entails, and you're over-estimating the capabilities of Ukraine to handle the influx of all this materiel from *every* nation. Nothing is ideal here.

[@joetrapp9187]

As a German-Austrian descendent with two Grandparents born in Ukraine, this question of exactly who should Germans direct their cross generational guilt to has been on my mind a lot lately. One grandmother was born in 1900 in Orikhiv near Zaporizhzhia as a "Black Sea German," with many of her relatives being Mennonite. My Mom has been translating her mother's diaries and we came to one point where my Grandmother's family went to visit another farm and they were shocked to see the farmer's Ukrainian serfs eating out of a trough, like farm animals. Not all Ukrainians were poor and treated so poorly, but they were treated as the lowest caste on their own land. I have both Russian and Ukrainian friends and I have traveled to both countries. Many years ago, I met many of my WWII era German relatives. While most were contrite and honest about the war, a couple were still rationalizing the German atrocities. I hear that now from some Russians in America now, and I don't respond. I can't talk to them anymore because I know there is nothing I can say that will have any affect. Instead of words, I think actions have affect. I think a lot about how I can help, as a Civil Engineer, in Ukraine after the war, just in some way to repay a debt.

[@sherrillwhately7586]

All good points!!!

[@ScrapKing73]

I think the slow (but steady) dribble of support for Ukraine might have had more to do with keeping China from supporting Russia. Had the West come in on day 1 with M-777, HIMARS, F16, M270, Chieftain, Leopard, Abrams, etc., etc., etc., and Russia wasn’t a proven loser yet, China might have felt pushed to get more involved. Instead, they did as much as they could at each stage without instigating China to expand the friendship “without limits”.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

I’be got a buddy who retired from US Naval intelligence last year whose been saying the same thing. It’s easy to get laser-focussed on Ukraine (Or Taiwan, for that matter) & forget that America’s relationships with Russia & China are heavily correlated. The countries are quite different, however. China, unlike Russia, is definitely not going away & is an integral part of the world economy.

[@SiliconCurtain]

This is an interesting angle. And there’s probably a lot of truth in it.

[@piushalg8175]

It has to be acknowlegded that the German president is a socialist. And the German socialists (or at least a whole influential lot of them) were quite russophile. They were not very comfortable with Germany as a part of the capitalistic West and kept quite good relationships with East Germany (the current German chancellor was one of them) and therefore favoured the so called détente with the Soviet Union. And this kind of russophilia influenced German politics after the end of the cold war to a large extent. Of course economical interests played a huge role as well. But president Steinmeier was a leading figure in the foreign ministry since 1998 to 2003, even a long time foreign minister since 2007 and therefore largely responsible for the policy regarding Russia. He clearly favoured the energy policy including north stream pipelines etc. After the russian invasion of 2022 he made some halfhearted apology like saying that he had made mistakes. It is also noteworthy that Chancellor Merkel is the daughter of a socialist lutheran pastor who emigrated with his family from Hamburg to communist East Gemany. She was heavily influence by Russian socialist culture, learned Russian very well (partly in Russia) and was secretary for (communist) propaganda and agitation in her department of physics. She seemingly joined the christian democratic party for opportunistic reasons and unfortunately made a successful career without having a really liberal mindset in any real sense.

[@SiliconCurtain]

Very interesting details, thank you.

[@hh-kv6fh]

@@SiliconCurtain but it has nothing to do with the "german guilt". i as a german dont feel any nor i bow to someone who wants to keep me guilty like ie sergej here. this german guilt from a german viewpoint is merely for diplomatic or political reason but not as a feeling. there exiss no eternal guilt or a guilt for something i haven't done, sort of a collective punishment. the guilt card is played if someone wants something from us. ie by this sergej. but not by a german. i myself are proud or glad that ukrainians choosed my country as refugees. they could have chosen another country. and talking about guilt in this context will not solve anything. if you would pay more attention, all these pseudoacademical talks about the german guilt are coming from foreigners and not germans.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

Scholz was on the left edge of the Social Democratic Party as a student in the ‘70s but it’s bit of a stretch to call him a socialist today, at least in the sense that most people usually use the term nowadays. It’s not out of the question that the Russkies might have kompromat on him, though. The Stasi infiltrated a lot of lefty West German student groups in the ‘70s & ‘80s.

[@piushalg8175]

@@grahamstrouse1165 I agree. And it is well known that East Germany financed the so called peace movement in the 1980ies, a very influential mainly leftist movevement, who opposed the stationing of middle range rockets in West Germany as a balance to nuclear rockets from the Sovet Union. Because the socialists largely opposed this NATO response, in 1982 the goverment by the socialists and the liberals broke and a coalition of conservatives and liberals came to power. .

[@tadeuszburkiewicz8655]

Sergei Sumienny ! Thanks for illuminating certain facts which I was unaware of ( 'sumienie' means 'conscience' in Polish, a good surname to have... 'Navalny' unfortunately means ' faulty' in Polish ' Fawlty Towers ' is an English eccentric comedy TV programme starring Mr.Fawlty...I am an ethnic East European born of refugee parents from WW2 one parent 14 did forced labour in Austria & the other did forced labour on the Russian Railway at 16 . Allow me to remind you that only 80% of Russians are ethnic Russians in Russia. There are surprisingly 8 different languages spoken in Ukraine. The UK prides itself on being multicultural . Yet Brexit happened because just over 50% of the population bought into the idea that foreigners are anyone non-caucasian & non English, ie illegal immigrants spoiling the Great British way of life. In general the shortage of well paid jobs & shortage of housing is the fault of foreigners such that British citizens ie University graduates who join the ranks of the Police because of a lack of employment , enjoy being thoroughly racist & sadistic ...Most East Europeans are Russian in their eyes . An unpronounceable & unspellable name proves their theory when I.D. is produced . " Behaviour liable to cause a breach of the peace .Section 136 , you are under arrest" There are no video cameras in the observation suites in many mental hospital & & crucially there is no legal obligation for a police person to switch on their body camera. It matters not that one speaks a received prononounciation accent , has a uni degree & no criminal record & is polite ... The straight bar wrist restraints are self tightening so they bite harder & harder ... When the Police use the mantra " We will HELP you, if you HELP us" they twist the bar on one's wrists such that one involuntarily screams, but when the wrists are broken the hands become numb & the wrists swell after many hours of torture ( mad & mentally ill people scream too!) until one is mentally " withdrawn" ie an unresponsive drooling mess on the floor... Then one is suitable for examination in an A & E hospital empty ward with at least 6 accompanying policepersons who have all had a go at dragging the patient & torturing . Should one try to retaliate( defend one self) One is taken to a P.I.C.U.( psychiatric intensive care unit ) via a white van & cold metal floor & secure metal cage into a non- suicide room with no windows & finally one recognises humanity when one is given a straw to suck tea from a paper cup but one cant use their hands at all ...& glaring patients stare from screwed down tables & chairs at me ! ( ALL sorts of scary of danderous dangerous

[@sumiland6445]

Konstantin said you did an earlier interview with Sergej but I can't find it. Did you post it in Silicon Curtain, Jonathan?

[@SiliconCurtain]

This is the first one with this Sergej… I may have interviewed other Sergejs?!

[@WalterBurton]

👍👍👍

[@bigman23DOTS]

Russians took absolutely full advantage of Germans….in particular in many capitol cities around the world there are many German clubs.Funny thing is they all are almost always within a few blocks from a Russian Orthodox Church

[@tranngocminh269]

and their selfishness too

[@HenrikVendelbo]

I hold Germany responsible for enabling this

[@Think-Tank_Denkfabrik]

As always very interesting. Unfortunately, the guest Sumlenny loses his objectivity at 15:30 and abuses the Shoah for his criticism of the German government's hesitant delivery of weapons. I think it's totally inappropriate to construct a kind of Shoah denial out of it. In my opinion, this is a dangerous trivialization of the Shoah! 19:10 OK, forget my previous text. I can't take this man serious - he is just ridiculous

[@nestorze]

I see no Ukrainian or Pole considering forgiving ze Germans or ze #ruscists, any time soon.

[@White90ice]

Seegey sumlenny and an expert is as much true as santa claus is real xX

[@betterdonotanswer]

4:45 The Germans never attacked Ukraine since 1018 because Ruthenian king Jaroslavъ the Wise was wise enough to create Poland as a buffer state in between Rus (Ukraine) and the Holy Roman Empire. Back in 1918 and 1941 the Germans liberated Ukraine from Muscovite occupation, they were allies quite formally.

[@stevebeer3324]

i can assure you that in 1941 most Ukrainians saw themselves as being trapped betweentwo monstrous regimes. My Dad was lucky Sort of... He was .an 18 year old who had been put into the Lubyanka prison by the occupying Moscovy regime. in 1940. He was from Galicia, given to Russia by Germany as part of their pact of cooperation. What had he done ? Nothing,; absolutely nothing. He was , however the son of a peasant farming family, grown prosperous (By Russian standards) through grindingly hard work and by living in the previously Polish occupied sector of Ukraine that Russia had just invaded. He had been studying in a Seminary and had been the soloist in one of the oldest churches in Ukraine He had a lovely tenor voice. It probably didnt go down well with the thugs and henchmen representing Stalins psychopathic state. He was given ,I think it was an 11 year sentence.- in any Russian p;rison of the time a death sentence.When the prison got too overcrowded - there were prisoners arriving all the time - Prisoners would be rounded up, taken to the execution yard outside at the back of the cell my dad was in; and they would be shot.The guards would ask -Are there any Bakers here? . Oh the new boys would think, a job in the kitchens, we will get warm, we might get food... There were many bakers who willingly walked to the yard where they waited ..and were mowed down... Are there any shoemakers? Builders , Teachers.?.... When , after 11 months of lying with his arms strapped down, unable to protect his eyes from the bright lights that shone all night; when he began to lose his eyesight; when his weight had sunk to 5 1/2 stone; when he had difficulty walking... the guards came and asked Are there any Poles in this cell? . My dad put up his hand.. He was Ukrainian,, first language Ukrainian, from a Cossack family..... and .he was ready to die., It was the start of "the Great Patriotic War" fought and won almost entirely by Russia ,if you listen to their version of history! . He was fed for 2 months in a barracks before they let him out in public and then told him to join the Polish (Monty's 8th) army. He fought at Tobruk and Monte Casino among other battles, and after staying in Italy for 2 years came to England in !947. The Germans did not liberate Ukraine.They murdered Ukrainians . The Russians did not Liberate Ukraine. They murdered Ukrainians. With the Yalta agreement between the "allies" in 1945, 2million Ithink it was, Poles and Ukrainians were "Repatriated into Russian hands. The servicemen(British ) who delivered them said they heard the shooting start before they left. .Those who did not die went to the Gulags.Britain eventually stopped giving Russia back its servicemen who helped win "The Great Patriotic War" and who had seen life outside the Soviet Union. A crime that could not be forgiven!

[@betterdonotanswer]

Q: i can assure you... A: Evidently not, due to the lack of knowledge.

[@betterdonotanswer]

Q: Ukrainians saw themselves as being trapped betweentwo monstrous regimes... A: In 1941 most Ukrainians regarded Germans as liberators because they remembered them as such since 1918. And the German regime was not monstrous yet comparing with the Muscovite one that already committed a series of genocides in Ukraine.

[@betterdonotanswer]

Q: Russia... Russian... A: There is no single square meter of Russia nowhere in Muscovy.

[@betterdonotanswer]

Q: They murdered Ukrainians... A: They executed hostages, which is war crime. Besides that, they behaved in accordance with German laws, whatever they were.

[@esakoivuniemi]

Is Sergej right? Are Germans really so naive in their pacifism as he says? It's hard to believe anyone with functioning brain can draw such stupid conclusions from the past. I have much more cynical view in regards to German pacifism, but maybe I've been wrong all along.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

A decent chunk of them, yeah. Especially older Germans.

[@karinfroller7403]

Look at the actions, not the words. Google "what did Germany send to Ukraine". There is an official list of "Military support for Ukraine" by the federal government of Germany. 💛💙🇩🇪

[@orctowngrot8842]

There was a secret compact between G and M. For M there had to be silence and correct conduct. But this has been so totally broken and forgotten that the time has come for it to be renewed.The silence now screams and no one knows correct conduct and the children are without teachers. Gestures towards small virtues cannot fix what is now broken. The time for re-clarification is here. Bring all words of wisdom to destroy the law I shall reveal, and all the words of all the creeds will fade to dust and butterflies before it. The Dawnhorse stamps its eager hoof for the new beginning. The messenger is a common criminal, yet chained in a cave.

[@mljrotag6343]

Orange man said this would happen when in Europe, and the German officials were smirking like he didn't know what he was talking about.

[@PalleRasmussen]

Exactly. He does tell an untruth though; there were many more than 10000 Ukrainians that joined the Waffen SS alone, let alone HIWIs and paramilitary anti-partisan units. Generally his analysis is *not* objective, but there is a kernel of truth to it.

[@operator9858]

Germany should never have been allowed to rearm period. This war has proven that a tiger cant change its strips even if you call it a leopard.

[@ciarandoyle4349]

Do you prefer Russia's stripes?

[@rafaelsanz3441]

Operator 9, as a Russian troll uou need to know that after this war Poland and Ukraine will become the most important European countries as well as the UK. Germany shall lose importance. Poland shall get all the US investment, Ukraine all the Russian resources for free, as Russian people will need to pay huge amounts as indemnity for their war crimes.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

This war can end any time Russia stages a special military evacuation, and you know it. So please, don’t pretend that ignorance is strength.

[@operator9858]

@@ciarandoyle4349 at one time i was ready to potentially give my life to fight russians. Now i think they are our only hope for west if they can break free from our grip and provide an alternative.

[@operator9858]

@@rafaelsanz3441 thats complete fantasy and based on nothing. Eastern europe has little that investors want.

[@gerhardvanderpoll7378]

Brilliant guest....great discussion...holistic insights and conclusions....🏆🏅🎯...Intelligence x Psychology x History x Geopolitics .... all to the exponential power of 3.

[@SiliconCurtain]

👍👍👍