serious structural failure of a yachts keel matrix from a significant grounding.

[@casybond]

One of the great things about your videos is that they are short and clear. Very informative this one as well. Thanks!

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Thanks really appreciate your comments 👍

[@doodlegassum6959]

Underrated comment

[@robwilton9539]

Unbelievable that this video channel was only suggested by KZbin today, after I have been watching sailing videos and people fixing their boats for about three years now. Subscribed!

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Thanks, welcome and do spread the word!! Have a look at my bio page too. Thanks ben

[@blaaaaahhhh15]

These videos are great. Thank you!

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Glad you like them! Thankyou

[@felixcat9318]

What an interesting, informative and very well detailed, concise video this is! Subscribed.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Thanks so much and thanks for subscribing.. enjoy the other 140 odd posts!!!

[@harbourdogNL]

Just found your channel, it's brilliant. Thank you. You deserve waaay more subscribers, but you've just gotten another one. Those keel bolts and that damage is frightening.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Welcome aboard! And thanks so much for your kind comments! Hope you enjoy

[@twisterwiper]

Very nice video. It would be interesting to see how a repair like this is done. How do you maintain the alignment and geometry of the boat when you start to cut it, I wonder.

[@MrSeachaser175]

You “Hang” the boat on the stands so that the keel is hanging like if it was floating, then starts the grinding and laminating the many layers of glass, we had to do that on a boat that the owner hit a rock at 8 knots, that caused significant damage, it took 13 layers of tri-axil woven roving glass to get it structurally sound again.

[@twisterwiper]

@@MrSeachaser175 Yes, I know about the process in general. It would just be very interesting to see a detailed vlog about all the steps involved. I don’t think it exists on KZbin. At least I haven’t been able to find one.

[@Coyotehello]

Amazing footage, thank you. I surveyed two of these type of boats in the past few years. Curiously it did not take substantial grounding to create such damage, one was motoring at the entrance of a marina around 5knots and grounding in soft mud, the vessel just powered through but the damage was done. I contacted the manufacturer who suggested that these boats, using a grid to support the keel, are made to have the keel hang from the hull/shell and the boat should not rest on the keel while in dry dock. ! Cheers, a

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Yes it's not always a substantial grounding that causes the issue as many vessels are pasted together so very little tolerance to being flexed

[@LydieBaillie]

so informative , thank you

[@jamesgraham6122]

This is the first of your presentations I've come across.. will be searching for more... ! I would have liked to know if this was considered a viable repair project.. not knowing the age of the boat it's difficult to make a guess.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Quite viable

[@zeilgenot]

Another interesting day at the ‘office’ again! Quit a destruction indeed. Don’t think I would like to buy this yacht, even after an extensive repair. The corrosion on the keel bolts also were wuit extensive. Hopefully from standing water in the bilge. Thnx again for s great video! Harry

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Many thanks for the comment. Once repaired, many are better and stronger than when first built... the but is as long as its been done properly. Thanks Harry 😊

[@henktulp4400]

My boat (to be refitted) is a Laurin Koster 28; she has a full keel….. hull and keel are one, to my mind a much safer construction!! The wet area is much bigger, so yes, in light airs she will be slower than finn-keeled yachts, but that’s ok…. I am not in a hurry…. When the conditions are bad I know I can rely on her…. her motion in rough weather will be so much smoother, and on top of that I will NEVER have to worry about loosing my keel…..EVER!!!!

[@dickenscider7328]

Same here my friend, Island Packet 420.

[@atakd]

Very interesting, even if it caused flashbacks to my own mishap 10 years ago. Regarding economic repair, most costs are for boat handling and furniture removal so don't vary that much with the extent of the damage. GRP work only accounted for 15% of my (insurer's) repair bill.

[@pauloregan797]

Appreciate your video clips Ben. Surveying in the southern Caribbean at the moment.....!

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

I can think of worst places to be!!

[@bubbleobill267]

Man, that’s pretty Munted. Speaks volumes for having an encapsulated keel!.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

I do love my encapsulated long keel SS 42 .. but even these if damaged can cost a few pounds to sort out if it's iron and not lead ballast fitted

[@ceirwan]

Or just not running aground. Plenty of people manage with non encapsulated keels by avoiding the bottom!

[@paulvr3158]

I'd walk away. This boat has been totally neglected, damage notwithstanding, every system must be disgusting and disintegrating. If that is how the keel-bolts look, how does the engine compartment look? Or the chain locker? Or the mast-step, chainplates and stauntions. No thanks.

[@briandbird6339]

Very interesting video, thanks. Would a more traditional hull construction be more likely to hold up better in a grounding? Would it be easier to repair?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Certainly a yacht that all frames, bulkheada and sringers are bonded in are stronger on impact.. but cost considerably more to produce.

[@WidleyWesident]

Definitely a boat needing love and repair. Interestingly a surveyor did once comment to me that many US designed and built boats show the convex shape behind the aft edge of the keel, even when they aren’t damaged.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Always interesting, and just highlights whyits so important to have a survey. Cheers

[@johanwithag2432]

Hi, I have seen a YT video for a similar repair by a Swedish shipyard done very professional. The boat was in the shop for 7 weeks. I don't know the cost, but it must have been substantial. I'm sure the cost will be higher then the market value for a 20+ year old boat. That would main for an insurance that the boat is a total los. If the boat has an insurance for such an event, the owner will receive the current market value of the boat as a maximum.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Yes a lot of it comes down to value. Depending on the severity many keel and matrix repairs cost between £9 & £14k in UK but obviously this is a very basic guide and every one is costed on its level of damage. Thanks for your comments

[@johanwithag2432]

@@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu Hi, thanks for your response. I had a much higher cost number in my mind. That was based on this repair: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bomQf5VvYtWVnLc (SAILBOAT REBUILD - how to REMOVE a KEEL - Plastskador repair - week1) That was a partly rebuild of the grid and re attache the bottom hull.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

It's very dependent on extent of delamination. And where in the world you are based!

[@danielswords3969]

Or, convert the boat into a displacement hull trawler. Leave a 6 or 19 foot mast for a steadying sail, antennas, navigation lights, etc. drop the keel, repair the hull to be watertight and reasonably fair. Fill the bilge with cement for ballast. Would make a slow but decent live aboard trawler.

[@ejdd3442]

There is an option 3. I think the sailboat may have reached it's life expectancy. What year is this boat? I see this was posted about 18 months ago.

[@josefkrycha]

Can this even be fixed?

[@leonidas7080]

Very informative video. Ρepair and disposal.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Glad it was helpful!

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Glad it was helpful!

[@rogerdarbyshire5664]

As an ex insurance underwriter, I can say that this is not worth repairing, unless someone buys it for pennies, then has the time, money and skills to repair it themselves. The problem still remains though, that the structure as designed was inadequate to resist a grounding impact. Restoring it back to spec will still mean the next impact will put you back to square one. Not an insurable proposition without a complete redesign and upgrade in strength.

[@anttiroppola4414]

Expedition Evans did a good series on that. Similar issue and willing to put the work in and accept what they might find when gutting the boat, they were with some luck able to come away with a much bigger boat than their savings would otherwise allow.

[@simonpickering2665]

As a former boat yard manager and a marine surveyor who has over seen many repairs worse than this is have to disagree

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Interesting.. the claims paid for it to be repaired against the insured value. The repaired craft is certainly stronger than the original pasted together hull and internal frames

[@rogerdarbyshire5664]

@@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu The problem lies in the future. The repair was almost certainly an upgrade on the original scantlings, and definitely on the original build quality. And the repair costs would lie within the original valuation. However, whilst many current "underwriters" would insure it again for the same value, I wouldn't, which is entirely my privilege as an underwriter. No insurer is obligated to offer insurance, and I can forsee an expensive argument in future about insured value. Just because a surveyor says it's worth X amount doesn't mean it is in the open market. I encountered many ridiculous "valuations" given to yacht owners in my career, and flatly rejected not a few of them. They were quite free to insure elsewhere.

[@richardcarter3246]

Scrap it for the safety of future owners

[@darkarts59]

Is there such a thing as a keel with a flexible section that could absorb an impact without damaging the join to the hull. Some kind of shock absorber set-up?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Yes it's called a lead keel it's always noticeable with a lead keel the impact is softened..

[@darkarts59]

@@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu Ok, I think Tally Ho has one

[@analogbeasts]

Interesting video. Is this economical to repair?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

This is a good question, generally the beauty of GRP is almost everything is repairable.. its the point of where the value of the vessel sits. A good repair would certainly make her a stronger and stiffer hull if properly undertaken.

[@glockbiker1]

I'm astonished that it could be repaired to original integrity, and further, at a cost that would be reasonable given the actual value of the boat.

[@simonpickering2665]

Yes they can - I have managed a boatyard that did the repair of at least ten plus boats damaged from groundings

[@shnboardman1]

Im on your wave length, so surprised they can fix it, I would be checking my insurance. But then again I don't know much about yachts

[@StephanParry]

Recently watched a Norwegian guy who ran aground when he fell asleep - rebuilding matrix and keel cost him (insurance) $40000. Didn't look anywhere as bad as this one either.

[@shnboardman1]

@@StephanParry Any idea of the name of the video?

[@maverickthebastard]

@@shnboardman1 NBJS sailing site.....

[@wysiwyg2006]

is there a specific make you find keel impact damage worse on?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Hi encapsulated keels normally are better.. then solid hull with bonded in frames then it's pretty much open to the level of impact. That said hulls that have a keel root created are often bit stronger than a flush fitted arrangement. Hope that helps

[@johan8724]

To get that fixed you need a lot of fiberglass, at least an area of 3 sqm needs to be reinforced for that keel

[@timallen6025]

Ha the hull laminate may ‘ sound’ solid still but.. has it lost some of its stiffness - only removing a test sample would ever relieve that doubt

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

The hammer and percussion along with how it reacts tells so much..

[@mark7denzer]

Do you find that keel bolts like this come out promptly? I am feeling like I would take off the keel, tear out the grid, one bit at a time to maintain the boat shape, and then glass in floors and stringers. I am not a pro, and I am thinking the job would take two months including drying time. The amount of fiberglass itch is beyone calculation: Defcon 4. Lay days in the yard alone would be $6K where I live. At least 10-15 gallons of epoxy, plus some Kay-Cell. And an acre or two of roving and stitchmat. A small fortune in sandpaper. A small plastic cup for my tears. Am I wrong?

[@stephengrimmer35]

Retrospective glasswork never takes. There is no chemical bond. Only mechanical.

[@mark7denzer]

@@stephengrimmer35 That seems overly pessimistic. Lots of repairs are just slathered over the top of heavily ground out structure. Epoxy seems to stick pretty well. Poly, not so much.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Not impossible. Once cleaned back most do come out

[@UKvet246]

Do you think the keel has taken the weight of the boat to cause all that damage

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

The vessel has certainly had a good grounding at some point. The compression post and localised deck issues are also good indicators. Unfortunately, because the external and internal hulls have only been bonded together with just paste, from the forces applied its quite easily seperated. At that point the hull has lost most of its designed strength. The vessel has been supported ashore as best as possible to prevent further distress.

[@ninehundreddollarluxuryyac5958]

In just a few minutes you showed some serious things to check when buying a boat.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

@ninehundreddollarluxuryyac5958 many thanks, if you look to my bio you may see why.. I try and make my findings quick and simple to help everyone have safer boating. Thanks

[@RobertPeniston]

Yep

[@futureisscary246]

Is this worth repairing?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Yes

[@derekness7900]

To me this looks like a complete horror. He does this all hang together?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

A miracle ✨️

[@xrstopherpopp120]

to me....internal matrix means not to be compromised or all integrity is lost, like an eggshell. the fact these can be repaired blows my mind.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

The beauty of GRP is that most issues can be repaired and often stronger than the original.. its all about cost and stomach!!

[@garymitchell5899]

Anything can be repaired given enough time and effort, like he said

[@petergrundy8081]

I could never go to sea in that even after repair with confidence

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

It's essential it's repaired properly and over seen by an experienced surveyor who understands the proper way to repair

[@RobinHopwood]

Very interesting video, but in my opinion the boat is a death trap just screams end of life.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

In boatbuilding often as I've said a good repair is really better than the original.. if done properly.. and that is often the real issue.. getting it done properly with a surveyor who understands the issues.

[@corvavw6447]

Total loss 😢

[@jeremyrowley1240]

This is why a production-constructed yacht has to be lifted every time after a grounding. It looks to me that this one has a bodged repair.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Unfortunately the inner pan and outer hull laminate have separated, the two are put together with just paste. No simple way to rebond without cutting out the internal returns and grp pan...

[@jeremyrowley1240]

Yep. That putty paste bond is quite weak. The MAIB say it is their biggest concern about yachts.

[@stanleybest8833]

If I could afford the fiberglass, it would get an aluminum keel with a zinc cast bottom. There would be a big wide Tee at the top of the new keel with bolts a good foot wide. Your next video would be a big granite rock with a gash being filled in by rock repair specialists.

[@captlarry-3525]

In my opinion the boat should be scrapped.

[@bertiewooster3326]

Yes scrap .I Know

[@MrSeachaser175]

I’ve seen a number of yachts like that repaired. It’s a LOT of work but it’s very doable.

[@mymobile5014]

Holy moly. is that boat a write off then?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

No very repairable

[@sixmagpies]

You might also mention that, obviously, all structural "glass" repairs really must be done with epoxy resins and never with (long chain molecule) polyester resins. I've sometimes seen some long, very laborious and otherwise lovely repair work utterly wasted at the end, simply by way of using polyester resin. So irritating.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Absolutely.. being one of the first in the UK to use the west system 💯 agree 👍

[@nunosantiago2273]

Structural liners are a curse. I wouldn't own a boat built like that. I've seen a french built 35 ft boat that had a keel you could swing sideways by hand. The liner had been crushed by a grounding and got totally detached from the hull.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

That's very common with many production boats all around the world.

[@nunosantiago2273]

@@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu I know....I'm sticking with my old Fulmar .

[@botnic.]

What would you expect the repair of such a damage to cost? Do you think repairing such a damage can be lucrative or will the cost be much higher then the value of the boat?

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

The responsibility of undertaking the repair by someone who is competent is essential, if it was to fail someones life depends upon it being 100% right. Its not a quick way to make money..

[@larslarsheim1741]

I'm gonna say Beneteau?

[@kweetje]

Oh, a beneteau basher. American i guess ? 😂😂😂

[@stephengrimmer35]

Two words, Cheeki Rafiki

[@kweetje]

@@stephengrimmer35 yes, and ? A boat was severely grounded, was not repaired and set out to cross the ocean. Unfortunately it sunk. Could haven been a Najad or a HR or even an Oyster ( which has bad reputation for losing it’s keel) or a medieval boat like a Rustler or Tayana. So please explain ? You are certainly american, since here in the EU Beneteau is considered a well built safe blue water cruiser. We are living on our boat since several years, crossing several oceans. The boats we see most are Beneteau’s, and most of them have nothing breaking. So, do you even have a boat ? If you have, i guess, it is one of the old medieval ones and you are trying to convince yourself that you have a good boat. We wish you success !

[@simonmoody2649]

Bennies brake too, I've had to fix them

[@bendenisereedy7865]

I would never sail in a GRP boat that had been repaired in such a critical area. I would scrap it.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

As per my last comments if done properly it's better that the original.. however I've also been on yachts where the owner was never aware of the repairs that existed until I showed him!

[@stevelawrie9115]

Not in good shape but a least she didn’t loose her keel

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

I think honestly it was very touch and go it didn't! Did think the owner should buy a lottery ticket as definitely a lucky person +

[@wouterke9871]

I do not like these type of double hull constructions, prefer to see laminated ribs and webs. But that's old-fashioned me...

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

I'm in the same club as you... mines a 40 year old sparkman and Stephens ketch...

[@waternest]

Sawsall time😢

[@SydneyGrimes-uw3mh]

Bad news I'm afraid 😢😢😢

[@rosewood1]

This grounding happened years ago. In all probability it's had numerous incidents. Not worth repair. It's a chop up. The work to repair this properly is enormous. And it hasn't been maintained properly. No professional would touch it.

[@davidprocter3578]

That boat must be very close to being a write off, certainly the cost of a proper job in a yard that knows what it is doing would out way the value of the boat????? I would want to know how much the current owner would be willing to pay me to take it away. Still it could have been worse look what happened to the Puritan.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Yes it was borderline but repairable.. and stronger than the original now, it's properly bonded together and not relying on paste like so many modern production yachts

[@Paul37Ontario]

you mentioned 2 option. You forgot the third, which is to scrap this piece of junk.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Often a good repair is stronger than the original production design. So I wouldn't always rust to the third

[@claphamalex]

Ct1 that'll fix it !

[@santamulligan676]

Thanks what’s obvious to you blinds my passion😹

[@johnmcgovern3806]

Put the camera down when talking and point with something too shaky

[@lbowsk]

When I buy a big boat, it will have a full keel.

[@gaylen8467]

who the hell would build a boat like that?

[@marty2872]

What a crappy boat- steel (not stainless) keel bolt hardware?. Galvanized pipe connecting a bronze thru hull? I would recommend scrapping not repairing.

[@janjaap7328]

Seems a Total loss to me

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Very repairable when done properly

[@iansenior9759]

I dont think these keels should be allowed. Stressing is too much and they fall off or snap off. These are not serious cruising boats; more like an in harbour floating caravan

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

All down to providing craft at a price.. my SS42 long keel yacht if built today would be over £550k the equivalent 42 production yacht is under half that.

[@-Bigjordan]

boats glory days are over needs to be scrapped

[@iansenior9759]

Flat bottomed boats are floating caravans.

[@somyrab]

And tour point is?

[@teddyshepherd2854]

I'll bid three Half-Crowns and take a chance on being bitten.

[@antebratincevic6764]

You can do nothing in the terms of repair. Boat is from 1990's. Dismouting antimould far exceeds the value of the boat. Second option i lot of to do or invest for poor outcome. Simply for the amount of the cost of repair it is possible to buy similar boat with such great damage or defect. Problem is in the design as well. Keel bolts are not aprochable and what material of the keel bots and nuts that came too rusty. It mast be more carbon out than in the structure of the austenite crystal lattice of steel from which the keel bolts and nuts should have been made.

[@ronagoodwell2709]

Bolted on keels are a disaster waiting to happen.

[@TheMarineSurveyorNotebookBenSu]

Not always.. it all depends on the quality of structure!

[@jimmerrill5471]

Supporting 8000 lb on a 6 sq foot print a good design 😮 leverage forces must be extreme

[@Grahame-i7x]

Scrap time