Roddick talks WADA vs JANNIK SINNER w/ Kim Clijsters

[@distico]

Those who said that Sinner didn't get treated as the other players because he's number 1 are right! If he was number 100 WADA would NOT have appealed. In fact the same exact situation happend to a low ranked player (clostebol contamination, with approved appeal in 48h) and WADA didn't appeal. Congrats everyone

[@ultrasound1459]

What's the name of the low ranked player?

[@enricosbenincasa]

@@ultrasound1459Marco Bortolotti

[@edochina]

Life without girlfriend

[@MauroJourney]

So much confusion in the words of so many people... Sinner tested positive for doping on March 10 and 18, 2024, eight days apart, not eight months apart (which would have meant a prolonged intake of the substance). The amount found in his body was equal to 86 pg/ml, that is 86 picograms per milliliter which are equal to 0.086 ng/ml, therefore 0.086 nanograms per milliliter! From April until the US Open, Sinner was subjected to more than 20 doping tests, all negative! But what are we talking about?!? Do we want to talk about the credibility of WADA? Let's do it: at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics (held in 2021 due to the pandemic), 23 Chinese swimmers tested positive for doping! None of them were disqualified! Eight of them won medals! Three of them won the gold medal! WADA, go to hell!

[@MauroJourney]

For the record: faced with the suspicion of mass doping by Chinese swimmers (among those involved were the gold medalists of that edition Zhang Yufei and Wang Shung, also medalists at this year's Games, and Qin Haiyang, with three victories at the 2023 World Championships and then gold in the mixed relay in Paris) the Anti-Doping Agency was quick to accept China's thesis according to which it was an accidental contamination through the hotel kitchens. But trimidazine, the incriminated substance (which increases blood flow and therefore reduces fatigue), is a molecule present only in the drug and not in food, in addition to the fact that it was later demonstrated that the athletes did not all sleep in the same hotel. Do you know who the vice president of WADA is? Wait wait: Yang Yang, Chinese! Just as we cannot forget that in 2019 the Anti-Doping Agency did not communicate the names of the athletes involved in 'Operacion Puerto', one of the most sensational cases of scientific planning of doping that took place in Spain since 2006: it hid behind legal problems and the statute of limitations, when in any case the revelation would have served to shed full light on one of the darkest periods in the fight against illegality. Talk to me about the credibility of WADA, I want to laugh...

[@franz1972-r6e]

Sinner is a sort of "guinea pig" for WADA to clean its face for 1) not having done enough before with the 23 chinese swimmers and 2) for resetting the legal concept of negligence without admitting the its Antidoping Code leaks everywhere (totally irrational that even is not able to discriminate the inhelegibility from a contamination case not improving performance from contamination cases improving performance). And the n. 1 tennis player, yeas, is definitely a very good "guinea pig" to achieve this.

[@SleepyJoe-q2g]

He tested positive which means he couldn't get it all flushed out of his system. Probably got cocky off of his AO win (under dope) and thought he could get away with even more. This deserves at minimum a 2-year ban plus his titles stripped including his two slams. He should consider himself extremely lucky to only get a 2-year ban.

[@MauroJourney]

@@SleepyJoe-q2g Before you write nonsense, learn how things went. Did he win the Australian Open completely clean, or are you really so stupid to believe that during the tournament he (like the others) was not subjected to anti-doping tests? The contamination occurred during a subsequent tournament. There should be an Internet ban for those who write nonsense. Come on, there is room for the ignorant, I await more interventions like yours.

[@davidobber6788]

@@MauroJourney Right. Furthermore, Sinner has a biological passport, he regularly had ant-doping tests, according to Wada requirements. Sleepy as nickname recalls Freud.

[@mikethebeginner]

I’m absolutist about this…in that I’m absolutely furious that WADA would consider taking away TWO YEARS from the career of a generational talent in his prime for NOTHING. That would be an injustice that would (yes, absolutely) put the inconsequential offense itself way into the shade. It would be FAR worse than anything Sinner did. (Yes, anything, even trusting the wrong trainer.) The thought of it makes me sick. It makes me feel rage.

[@BOZ_11]

There has to be consequences for negligence. Do you know all cheaters feign ignorance/negligence?

[@DJC67]

They have done it to others. Why not him?

[@billiey36]

@@BOZ_11 What was the negligence? That he hired someone? You'd better hope he wins or even your favorites will become babysitters to everybody in their circle.

[@BOZ_11]

@@billiey36 That's an absurd question, but I'll humour it and remind you that anabolic steroids were found in his bloodstream, something you know very well. Why this charade, I don't know. I'm sure the answer is incoming and underwhelming.

[@johnlicciardello2389]

And Sinner’s excuse was laughable. His trainer had a severe cut on his hand that needed a banned substance to help heal. And all the while he proceeded to give many massages to Sinner with NO BANDAGE or GLOVES over the open wound on his hand. I am glad WADA is stepping in. If someone offers any excuse they can have no penalty for doping????

[@FrankDudleyBerryJr]

Just a little side note from a retired member of the Bar (50 years). 'Negligence' is not the same as "zero tolerance'. An athlete who experiences a single incidence of cross contamination is not necessarily negligent. Compare Simone Halep (who I like a lot). She consumed the stuff for an extended period, and with the express purpose of improving her physique. I believe she was innocent of intent, but its a pretty powerful case for negligence.

[@JanisNisii]

As far ad I understood the Halep case, she was using a supplement that wasn't supposed to have any prohibited substance in it. It seems it got contaminated during production and she's actually suing the manufacturer (we don't have a verdict on that, yet). If the above information is right, how can this be negligence? If I use, say, vitamin C tablets and they got contaminated in the production laboratory, how can I possibly know?

[@sidmeerut417]

@@JanisNisii Great point! Halep was destroyed.

[@Pfaz001]

I have noticed that some players (I'm thinking of Djokovic and Medvedev but also Alcaraz) that before were a little mild and cautious on the Sinner's case, after wada appeal became more openly pro-sinner. I think now they are realizing how concrete is the possibility something might slip out of their control and how heavy would be the burden to carry.

[@FM22-ap]

Yeah they probably had some time to think about it. I mean everyone was thinking about the USO at the time and nowadays whatever you say can be used against you so they tried to don't say anithing controversial or taking side.

[@billiey36]

@@FM22-ap I think Pfaz was referring to how, if Sinner loses, all of them will be just as responsible for everything that everybody does around them and they can all be found negligent for any mistake anybody else makes.

[@paolasusanna]

Very accurate analysis. Congrats

[@franz1972-r6e]

I'm a Sinner fan and Italian. I read the 33 pages of the Tribunal resolution and the wada anti-doping code. It's clear that wada disagrees on the idea of "zero negligence / no fault" that came from the Tribunal resolution in order not to open the door to other similar cases that may happen in the future. Now, as you explained, this is not a case of doping. But let's be even more clear: this is an "episodic contamination case not enhancing the performance" and this conclusion is also science proved: 1) the Tribunal verified that Sinner never tested positive before (so to exclude that the tiny quantity is a residual of previous prohibited treatments) and 2) the Tribunal delegated three professionals (two of them appointed by the prosecution and one by Sinner attorney) to check if the samples of march, collected when he tested positive, contained a quantity of Clostebol able to improve the performance and the three professionals unanimously rejected that. After that the Tribunal verified if the "episodic contamination not enhancing performance" was intentional or unintentional and if, in this case, there's negligence. Here unluckly science doesn't help (nor for Sinner and neither for other athletes) and according to par. 109 the Tribunal made interviews and tried to cross-check what Sinner did in orther to exclude if Sinner was guilty for 1) having appointed bad professionals to help him or 2) not having supervised their work to the "utmost diligence". Now here troubles comes as this valuation, in a certain way, has a range of discretion that, according to art. 10.6 of WADA Code, in case of "not significant negligence" (so in case there's a negligence even if minor), can bring to a range from "zero with reprimenda to 2 years" period of inhelegibility. WADA, and we don't know why, said that for Sinner case the inhelegibility could range from 1 to 2 years. We can believe or not on the groudness of Sinner justification but the huge problem here is 1) the wide range of the period of inhelegibility that doesn't even differ a "contamination not enhancing performance" from "contamination enhancing performance" combined with 2) the discretionality of the opinion you may have to assess the negligence/no fault. WADA should have changed the rules to discriminate contamination not enhancing performance (which can be proved according to science) from contamination enhancing performance. But as WADA can't do this now of course, in order to achieve its goal (Sinner is responsible for a negligence) WADA appealed. Now, as CAS is formed with 3 arbitrators, 1 appointed by Sinner, 1 by WADA and 1 by the Chairman of CAS, WADA will be almost sure that an agreement will be find in order to 1) sanction Sinner with a short period of inhelegibility (in my opinion 3 months) so to exclude that Sinner case forms a sort of jurisprudence for future other similar cases and 2) the agreement can be settled in order to put Sinner in a position to even not lose the partecipation of a Grand Slam. This is why, to me, we are in this bizarre situation. Hope Sinner could stay strong. Greetings from Italy

[@Pfaz001]

Great informative entry

[@ROYAL_REBEL]

What they should've done was to ask him to sit out during the investigation.

[@antoinev9733]

oh i forgot ... gretting from France ;)

[@Pfaz001]

@@ROYAL_REBEL this is regulated and nobody is questioning that rules were correctly applied to the Sinner's case. Then one could argue that rules are badly conceived (and I agree) but this is a completely different topic.

[@ROYAL_REBEL]

@@Pfaz001 Regardless.

[@RamZar50]

- WADA said the ITIA ruling was "not correct under the applicable rules" and that Sinner should be banned for "between one and two years"! - The ITIA said its process was run according to WADA guidelines but respected its right to appeal. Sport Resolutions (SR) came to the same conclusion as ITIA. - It’s now up to the final arbiter which is The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). - WADA is in shambles! They can’t punish Russian and Chinese athletes so they take it out on individual athletes. - Fact is that Sinner’s exposure was accidental and unintentional plus in such insignificant amounts there is NO performance enhancement. - Too many parties to go through to get to a final decision: ITIA, SR, WADA, CAS.

[@spikelee007]

You guys talked nothing about what Sinners went through, what he’s going through and still playing at this level is amazing. Poor guy, but at the same time many, many people would like him to be banned so sad.

[@slimsleeper2150]

"poor guy".He is not avictim. He is faar from a victim Youd would never say this about Djokovic, Zverev, Kyrgios etc.

[@epsilonbeta4877]

@@slimsleeper2150 Yeah, we would say the same. Stop playing the victim card.

[@billiey36]

@@slimsleeper2150 Since he was doped without his knowledge, yes, he is a victim.

[@distico]

@@spikelee007 true. Alcaraz lost to Zandschulp because he was still affected by losing the Olympic's final. Sinner managed to win USO in this awful state of mind. It's part of tennis. Good luck to both

[@eduardochernia]

@@billiey36 it's called strict liability. Other players were rightfully suspended for not knowing

[@TotalTennisGeek]

LOVE these clear-headed approaches!

[@callerika]

If Sinner was declared innocent by three independent experts, he is innocent, just what is exactly what WADA wants to prove against players? He is innocent and does not deserves this pressure he is a wonderful human being and he has proven it with his words and actions

[@milanm403]

Why was he hiding all of this if he was inocent?

[@Urbanbenelux]

WADA should be investigated for this witch hunt. Their proceedings negatively affect players' performance. Who's going to compensate Sinner for the matches he lost worrying about being banned over nothing? He may have won the final in Beijing were it not for WADA's appeal, that's half a million bucks. WADA want their name on this because it's high profile, Sinner and the ATP should sue them and make them think twice before trying to ban any player and ruin the careers they worked hard for. Unacceptable.

[@SM-fc3mh]

I agree.

[@SM-fc3mh]

If the findings are that there is no fault and no negligence, Sinner will be acquitted.

[@pehrastrom1760]

It feels like its almost the opposite situation now opposed to what some people has claimed that he has advantages for being no1.As if wada needs to do this now to justify themselves because he is the no1. Or else they might look flat in some peoples opinion. It feels wery political now.

[@kieran1990able]

Even if it was accidental but if it gave performance enhancement then yes the player should be punished but if it didn't give any enhancement then thats just blatant stupid to think he should be punished. It's a literal common sense, why do people dope? sole reason is to get performance enhancement but sinner didn't have any of that.

[@phyotennis7462]

If you think, top level don’t dope you don’t know sport mate.

[@kelvinalexander4353]

They NEVER said anything like that.🙄​@@phyotennis7462

[@sawyer7191]

Someone setting you or putting you in a situation for an offense, without your knowledge, is not fair! That is the system of old times and centuries of ruling class crap! Humans should decide this and they had, proving his innocence of knowing what he was contaminated with. If someone on Novak’s team was careless and gave him a banned substance, I would be saying the same thing. Same with Alcaraz! People saying Sinner should be banned ultimately think Sinner being unknowningly contaminated by people he is close to is at fault for being close to people that he thought would look out for his best interest and Sinner should be punished for being a victim…like what humane logic is that? Fairness is in the incidence of the case, not the political appearance for the age of society, especially where everyone is just an advocate of being spiteful.

[@billiey36]

@@phyotennis7462 Looks like you missed the point.

[@jemps4437]

What applies is the notion that there must be a penalty for testing positive alone. Doesn't matter if it is accidental or not. Doesn't matter what the intention is. You test positive? You get suspended. Halep was in limbo for years but in the end got 9 months for testing positive. Djokovic was defaulted at the US open for unintentionally hitting a line judge with a ball.

[@francescodallevedove5018]

how sad is this whole situation...Wada should see how it's gonna be detrimental to its own credibility.

[@geoairtravel]

Excellent observation & analysis by Kim & Andy. 👍👍

[@emanuelet1366]

For me the situation is not complex, and there's should be a change: 1. If it's proved that the substance does not provide advantage to that specific sport, it's not doping. That's it. 2. WADA is ridicolous, they did not do anything against many americans and chinese athletes found positive at the Olympics. 3. I do not think Sinner will be entitled as the boss of the phisioterapist, to check which drugs he's consuming, because of privacy reasons.

[@jean-pierreuys1554]

Well said. They should change the doping threshold. Thats what should come from this for all athletes. If a drug is found at such ridiculous levels it shouldn’t count.

[@SphereOfEnergy]

Down to your point 1: Somebody would have to vindicate and persuade ITIA and WADA to delete Clostebol from a list of "forbidden substances" if you suppose it provides no advantage (by the way C. is an anabolic steroid used historically by athletes in various sports with a potential to raise a performance and sometimes to speed up a recovery of tissue including skin). Alternatively, in my opinion, they should set an unacceptable level (set a limit) towards CLOS.... (and other substances) when testing urine (or blood) in order to "filter" and differ: A) accidental usage (typically a dermal one) indicating extremely low amount per ml relating each banned substance using scientific methods of detection. from B) a pill / injection usage (where the amount of substance is, let's say, 50 up to 500 times higher than in case A). Your point 2: Can you put down any particular cases? Cheers Regards ✋

[@camera2painting]

I get tired of discussions that take place concerning the decisions made on behalf of organisations such as WADA or the WNBA as though they are not run by people. There is an individual responsible in WADA who is responsible for continuing to go after Sinner, who should be named and held to account for that decision. Sinners reputation is at stake.

[@federicotown8052]

Love your channel Andy !

[@becausemiro]

Andy, I have a question: hypothetically, me as a fan of a certain player, can I micro-dope an opponent at the autograph signing, to get him banned? Hypothetically, can a random person rub the clostebol all over the pen and one’s hands and pass it to the player? After training session or a match, hands are hot and sweaty, some get blisters, it could enter their system. And, hypothetically, they get tested positive, without any clue how they got it. Will player be responsibly for unknowingly taking a pen from someone to sign the autograph, or shake someone’s hand who intentionally rubbed banned substance to pass it to said player. And then what happens?

[@SC_Jolly]

Yes, clostebol can cause a positive test just by shaking hands. It takes at least 14 days for the body to completely clear the steroid in most cases. Search 'Detectability of oxandrolone, metandienone, clostebol and dehydrochloromethyltestosterone in urine after transdermal application' for more information.

[@BarbaraHarvey-m8j]

That's a great point! The amount in his system was minute, the world has been gifted with such a player. Jealous people want him out. I say enough already. Let the man play.

[@NamTran-xc2ip]

​@@BarbaraHarvey-m8jThe amount as his team stated 'a billionth of a gram' or in more professional language, nanogram/decilitre, is the standard measurement for PEDs.

[@NamTran-xc2ip]

That's the thing, it isn't a random person, it came from his team, who he employed for his profession. If I sent out my employee to work out a deal and they messed up, my partners would be looking at me, the employer for responsibility.

[@Dan-vo7vc]

​@NamTran-xc2ip yes, this! People citing this figure as proof that it wasn't being illicitly used don't even bother to talk about what the standards and dosages mean!

[@deboraheden6418]

This makes me so sad for Jannik. I am in awe of how he is handling this adversity.

[@ladybugwest909]

tennis just jumped the shark, losing fans by the millions. this is so unbelievably stupid

[@joemazla6672]

Sinner did nothing wrong some people are just very jealous of his talent .

[@milanm403]

So what was hiding???????

[@SergioMRebolledo]

you are the absolute best!

[@sheilablumears2271]

Have the two people responsible for this whole debacle been questioned? If they know the rules, what was their motives behind what happened? Are they having to pay any sort of penalty for what they did to Sinner. If not, why not? If they are not held responsible, it sends a message that you can destroy someone’s career with no consequences to you.

[@bernardbarroga1497]

Andy Rodrick is right! It’s nonsensical for Yannick to take this drug and not get the results to his advantage. WADA should reconsider this decision.🙄

[@gabrielesantucci6189]

Less than a billionth of a gram of clostebol!!! Could this ever be doping? Be careful, because this is a problem that could also happen to many other athletes with other substances prohibited by antidoping. What is needed is common sense, not blind and stupid bureaucracy!!!

[@ghsense2626]

What's your point? You do know they don't just use steroids and just leave it in their system? It could be a nanogram it still makes no difference. When you take these banned substances the aim is to flush it out so you're not caught. Sinner just messed up and didn't clear it all out. Also his coach Cahill was also Halep coach when she got caught. Keep being ignorant

[@Jacam781]

What I'd like to know and haven't seen anywhere is... if player X had taken a sufficient amount of clostebol to provide performance enhancement, how long would it take for that clostebol to decrease to THIS LEVEL in that player. If the answer is 'a month' and he's been tested every week, that helps things. If that's the case, then these tests should results should in all practically be regarded as 'negative' as they would be insufficient to enhance performance. Perhaps these are impossible questions to accurately or realisticially answer though.

[@billiey36]

@@Jacam781 They already explained that, because Sinner is tested often and there was no trace of the substance before the 1st failed test in March of the tiny amount, there would not have been time for a large enough amount to be performance enhancing to have been in his system between his last test and the first failed test in March.

[@maxdgr]

The matter is really simple, no advantage no sanction, what the hell are we talking about? Modify the rules, you must have an advantage to be sanctioned, what huge idiocy is this thing, we shouldn't even be arguing about

[@duncanwelch1688]

If he's banned from playing for a year or two, I think he's going to hold a press conference, explain the stupidity of that decision, and then announce that he's never returning to the game. How can a player continue to love the game when the people behind it essentially ruin his place in it?

[@exequielperez28]

Kim, you are a legend! 💕

[@brandonhough3308]

sinner fan yee. hard to hear but appreciate your honesty on the topic. love the show and your insight

[@ujjwalmukherjee4384]

I wouldn't want to see Jannik banned, even for just a day. However, wouldn't a shorter ban of 3 to 6 months raise concerns about special treatment for Sinner again, especially when others have faced much longer bans? In my opinion, If CAS strictly follows the rules and decides to ban Jannik, it could unfortunately be a 1-2 year suspension; otherwise, they might reject WADA's appeal.

[@vladimirstankovic4096]

You are dead right if banned for 6 months in the beginning we wouldn't have this discussion people don't understand it is in your system period 1mcgr or 1 kg no difference say sorry except punishment and move on

[@loredanamarino8304]

Fault and negligence follow the principle of "maximum caution". He could not reasonably have taken any other precautions in relation to his exposure to the substance, by virtue of the accidental event

[@AA-pi2dz]

My view is simple: 1. There must be proof of intent, negligence or recklessness showing that unapproved drugs have been deliberately taken 2. Jannik is entitled to be assumed innocent. 3. Until proven otherwise; it should not be an absolute offence. When there is no fault from the athlete or there is no mental decision element involving an act or omission on their part 4. WADA organisation is making a point that’s it’s no 1. They’re hurting the sport of tennis 5. There is no performance enhancement from the mishap 6. Janniks peers all say he’s a great ball striker, that’s why he wins, the drug had no benefit. The minuscule amount of drug in his body was in the millionths, and so the response by WADA is disproportionate 7. Jannik has integrity. I believe him

[@Dan-vo7vc]

If your proposed standard is adopted, then that creates a massive incentive for coaches and trainers to dope their athletes "without their knowledge," complete with a wink and nudge.

[@AA-pi2dz]

@@Dan-vo7vcYes, a fair point, and you’re right. Indeed, it’s happened in the past with weightlifting. But, the evidence speaks for itself, or should, and that is he only had less the one billionth of a gram. This is not abuse. Sinner accepted there was a breach, he said he takes responsibility, but not that he had taken medication with this minuscule ingredient. He is not a cheat, or an abuser, or someone who wants or needs to gain an advantage.

[@Jacam781]

@@Dan-vo7vc I'd agree - 'proof of intent, negligence or recklessness' - there's A LOT of scope there, and a lot of subjective interpretation possible. Did Sharapova have intent to break the rules? Likely not. Was she negligent? Eh... some say yes, some say no. Was she reckless? Eh.... again, some would say yes, others would say no. Did she deliberately take the drug? Well, yes, however she didn't know it was no longer approved. "There must be..." is lovely - all looks black and white, but it's followed by very grey descriptions.

[@jean-pierreuys1554]

People also forget that, during that time he lost. He didn’t play better.

[@AA-pi2dz]

@tomr6955 in some circumstances, applying an absolute liability without fault on the part of the ‘primary’ makes sense e.g. environmental breaches, but not livelihoods. If you were in the same circumstances, I’m sure you would be hoping the benefit of the doubt would be given, along with a proportional approach.

[@orchidpanda2253]

These are the times when putting the world in A.I.'s hands seems like a better option than under the care of human egoes. 🤣🤣Jannik should be doing victory dances to the end of this year, reaching world no. 1 for the first time in his career. I hope Roddick is wrong and Jannik gets zero suspension time.

[@BOZ_11]

AI is developed and course corrected by the human ego. Spend a minute with chatGPT, ask it something political or controversial, and see the idiocy, reams of it

[@vincenzochirico8404]

I asked chatgpt to judge the Jannick Sinner case: "If I were the judge in Jannik Sinner's doping case and had the authority to revise or change the rules, I would take a more nuanced approach than the current strict liability framework. Problem with Strict Liability Strict liability has its benefits, especially for ensuring fairness and discouraging athletes from using loopholes to explain positive tests. However, it treats all cases of contamination equally, regardless of the amount found or intent behind the use, which can result in unjust outcomes. Punishing an athlete who inadvertently ingested a trace amount of a banned substance as harshly as someone who deliberately took performance-enhancing drugs doesn't account for the varying contexts. The Case for a Revised System 1. Differentiation by Amount and Context: I would introduce a tiered system where the amount of a substance found in the athlete's system and the context (intentional vs. accidental use) play a larger role in determining the sanction. For instance, trace amounts like the "billionth of a gram" found in Sinner’s case could result in lesser or no punishment if contamination is proven accidental. On the other hand, athletes with high, performance-enhancing levels of banned substances would face stricter penalties. 2. Intent and Negligence Consideration: A revised system should weigh intent more heavily. Sinner provided credible evidence that his exposure was unintentional and due to contamination from his physiotherapist. In such cases, I would argue for minimal consequences, such as warnings or education, rather than a full suspension. This way, athletes are still held accountable but not punished excessively when fault or negligence is absent. 3. Rehabilitation over Punishment: For accidental or minor cases, the focus should shift from punishment to education, ensuring that athletes and their teams take more care without suffering career-damaging penalties. This would also help maintain the integrity of sport while promoting fairness. My Verdict in Sinner’s Case In Jannik Sinner’s case, given the evidence of accidental contamination, the trace amounts of the substance, and the thorough investigation showing no intent to cheat, I would uphold the original ruling of no suspension. However, I might issue a formal warning and require better protocols for his team to prevent such occurrences in the future. Rule Change Proposal If I had the power to change the rules, I would implement the following: Tiered Sanctions: Different levels of punishment depending on the amount of banned substance found and the level of negligence or intent. Scientific Thresholds: Establish a clear scientific threshold below which the concentration of a substance is considered too insignificant to affect performance, leading to no or minimal penalties. Intent and Circumstance Review: A mandatory review of the context in every doping case, with clear distinctions between intentional and accidental violations. This would make the anti-doping system more just and reduce the likelihood of athletes being unfairly punished for accidents or unintentional contamination."

[@Pfaz001]

Agreed. AI is able to understand facts far better than a large percentage of humans. Just watch how much nonsensical, off topic, ignorant is a large portion of comments on socials.

[@BOZ_11]

@@Pfaz001 like yours

[@Pfaz001]

​​@@BOZ_11which one specifically? Care to elaborate or you just want to insult people with different views?

[@LuciaFerrando-p8k]

Sinner's case was the perfect occasion for criteria of negligence to be changed once and for all. It is crazy one should be suspended for petting one's dog or (as Navratilova was telling) entering by mistake a weed joint in Amsterdam. The players who were unsympathetic with Sinner claiming equal treatment will likely obtain just the opposite if Sinner is suspended. It is not the Sinner case that was to be treated differently, but many of the suspensions of other players. Some say that contamination from some doping substances can occur even from a handshake. Wada has to change the criteria for everybody

[@italnsd]

It seems this story has become favorite habitat for all sorts of crazies, everyone with his own agenda. I will just briefly mention the toxic fans of a former number 1 with all their litany of injustices committed against their hero, that is ....the player who won more than anyone else. Ok... And since their hero suffered all this imaginary harm, there is no better way to serve justice than spreading lies in bad faith about another player. Impeccable logic, said no one ever. Then there is WADA: it agrees that Sinner did not intentionally use a doping agent (one let's remember that is from the prehistory of doping, the '60s, and that no one in a sane frame of mind would ever use as a doping of choice in 2024. Despite the miraculous properties attributed to it by those aforementioned fans, who took online classes to become overnight doping connoisseurs extraordinaire) that was found in trace amounts of picoliters (and not nanoliters as many repeat) but got contaminated by a mistake made by his team members. Despite knowing this, WADA still wants to impose a ban just because. Apparently a tennis player according to WADA cannot make the stupid error of thinking that, having hired professionals, they are responsiblee for what they do. A tennis player should always behave as if they were children, double or triple check all they do, open their bags to look what is inside, possibly record all their conversation when not surveil them with cameras 24/7. Basically, he should give up any illusion to have hired them to support him play, but instead become something akin to a full-time CIA operative in enemy territory, always looking for ways to get as much intel as possible on his own team. And for this idiotic take, WADA decided to upend the world of tennis for months, disrupting its level playing field, denying its best player for many months more that mental serenity that anyone innocent deserves to operate at his peak.

[@PaoloEusebi]

Past cases speak for zero penalty for Sinner. See Palomino case.

[@charlesmazzoli1509]

I have often felt empathy for how tennis players must travel all year and the rules heavy about what you can do and also bans seem to me 10x too long . Wada again going after Sinner turns me from a daily tennis fan to thinking I should take a long break.

[@promotry6934]

clearly different rules for different people, no more excuses. How many people on the USA national teams have asthma again? they need special medications right ?

[@Dan-vo7vc]

Asthmatics don't take anabolics lol

[@SM-fc3mh]

WADA has agreed that what Sinner is saying is true and that there is not a doping case (otherwise they would have requested a 4 years ban). They are now saying that he was negligent in that he is responsible for the medical treatments that the members of his teams take for themselves, though he has asked if Nardi was taking anything and the answer was "no". I think WADA should try to find real dopers and not harass people who are in trouble for unlucky combination of circumstances.

[@CXK13]

Consistency is nonexistent. It doesn’t matter how or how much. Halep out FOUR YEARS! In her mid 30’s. Career ending. Sinner gets a pass. And rather than stain the sport with a suspension of its #1 player they reduce Halep’s suspension. Interesting timing. No credibility whatsoever. Russian ice skater out four years in similar circumstances to Sinner. There is no credibility.

[@batta9327]

The fault is on system and not Sinner…he don’t deserve such treatment cause he is innocent

[@paolomagni]

Please note that WADA is not arguing the facts reconstruction by ITIA and JS. So WADA also acknoledges JS did not dope, did not want to enhance his performances etc. and that was an external contamination. WADA does not agree with ITIA about the fact that should be enough to not be suspended, because WADA (wrongly immo) believes JS should be anyway severely punished because he must be considered responsible for all what his staff does. "You should have vigilated more and with more accuracy! You didn't?! I suspend you." This is what people should discuss about, not about doping, there was no doping even for WADA.

[@splendidsystems]

The guy has to train, practice, eat, sleep, talk to media, sponsors, appear in commercials, and play and stay on top of everything his team touches? That's not reasonable. No enhancement, no doping.

[@federicotown8052]

Keep it up !

[@Rale75]

Andy please talk about the latest ad for the Riyadh tournament. Dying to hear your take on that one!!

[@katherine1898]

Omg it's an epic in itself😅

[@elenapavone-rennie1801]

If Sinner goes out for 1 or 2 years I will not watch tennis anymore... No traveling to US Open or other tournaments anymore no subscriptions to private tennis channels… is over...

[@berlusmafia]

If Sinner will be suspended he probably will retire. I will stop watching tennis too

[@elenavarvello1512]

​@@berlusmafiame too!

[@elenavarvello1512]

Not because I don't like tennis in general, but because it would be too much!

[@kennybrasil6025]

omg, tennis will be done without you! don't do this, please!

[@elenavarvello1512]

@@kennybrasil6025 nice joke. Thank you: my self-esteem is growing🤣🤣🤣

[@wichetleelamanit6195]

Rules were set by humans. Use this case to correct anything that was not correct.

[@MurduredGamerX.3p]

I heard Lance Armstrong tell a similar story " Ohh I used a cream for a saddle sore that had something in it " and we ALL know how that ended up. This is VERY straightforward they test : Jannik Failed end of discussion. If its on purpose or not its a Ban. " OH I didnt speed THAT much over the limit, still get a fine "

[@JohnDoe-wu4tt]

Gill Gross analysis on this was excellent. A number of Italian athletes have tested positive for this steroid because there is a skin cream widely bought in Italy that is banned elsewhere. I think he is innocent.

[@NamTran-xc2ip]

The argument is he should have known better and are responsible for his body.

[@Dan-vo7vc]

Plus, in Italy there's a huge WADA warning on the package, required by law.

[@pingomobile]

Unfortunately the doping notice is displayed on the box (which was not given to the physio) and not on the spray tube.

[@anthonyvizzo1456]

48hr shot clock is ridiculous, if anything it's evidence of guilt if you "Figure it out" that fast. I'm not saying in this case he did it intentionally, I don't think he did, but the fact he could figure it out in 48hrs is evidence he should have figured it out before testing positive.

[@genenars9698]

And didn’t he just fired his team when the news came out, not after the positive tests.

[@maxdgr]

If sinner is banned tennis is finished as a sport, clear and simple

[@EJohnD-ou9ss]

Andy, you have flip flopped on this having initially dismissed Sinner’s bad action to now supporting a 6-month ban. Isn’t about how tests get conducted but the lack of a standard when dirty tests are found. They were protecting tennis’s image and the #1 player but will end up damaging tennis permanently if rightful WADA appeal results in no action or deserved ban.🙄

[@splendidsystems]

When WADA lose this appeal, Sinner can countersue in a court of law for damage to his reputation and legal fees sustained.

[@katherine1898]

Im just wondering if this was accidental how did Sinners team come up with the answer in 48 hrs. If it was that swift why wasnt it checked before they used the spray. Im sure Sinner was unaware.... But this could have been said about Simona Halep. There has to be a penalty...perhaps a few months not years.

[@billiey36]

They were told what the substance was and the trainer immediately recognized that he had that substance in his possession. The sequence of giving it to the physio, etc. was easy to establish. The trainer should've known better, but he claims he told the physio what was in it and not to use it around Sinner. The physio says he wasn't told what was in it. And Halep couldn't identify the cause of her contamination for ages. That's why it took so long to get her case settled.

[@NamTran-xc2ip]

I'm skeptical but nobody including wasa disputed the story. So we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[@Dan-vo7vc]

It wouldn't be still in his system 8 days later... they would've found metabolites, not the drug itself.

[@henriquelaydner4080]

This is completely uncalled for! What should be penalized is performance enhancement itself. If there’s a dosage threshold that confers such an advantage, that should serve as the criterion for suspension, not a subjective factor that is impossible to determine, such as the intention to dope.

[@MauroJourney]

Attention, attention! I'll try to clarify the situation once and for all (I hope). Here's the statement from WADA: "The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) confirms that it lodged an appeal with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) on Thursday 26 September in the case of Italian tennis player Jannik Sinner, who was found not to have been at fault or negligent by an independent tribunal of the International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) for testing positive twice for Clostebol, a prohibited substance, in March 2024. WADA believes that the finding of "no fault or negligence" is not correct under the applicable rules." And then it continues (pay close attention to this part): "WADA is seeking a period of ineligibility of between one and two years. WADA is not seeking a disqualification for any finding other than that already imposed by the Court of First Instance. As the matter is now pending before the CAS, WADA will not be making any further comments at this time." Did you read that right? Here the question is not whether Sinner did dope, because it has been widely demonstrated that he did not, otherwise WADA itself would have asked for the revocation of the titles won, as has happened in the past to athletes who won medals at the Olympics, World Championships and other international events and tested positive because they had taken doping substances, but rather it appeals against the wording "absence of guilt or negligence" because it believes that the athlete is responsible for his team. And here comes the great underlying problem that is shaking up many tennis players who, at the beginning, were "cold" or even blame towards Jannik Sinner. How can an athlete, who should only think about training and playing tournaments, be directly responsible for the behavior of all the members of his team? Should he also follow them in their private lives? Is it necessary to hire new figures within the staff who are responsible for monitoring every behavior of coaches, athletic trainers, physiotherapists even under the sheets of their own home? If a staff member's girlfriend or wife gets a skin abrasion and uses a spray or ointment containing Clostebol (or any other prohibited substance) to treat it and, during intimacy, passes it on to the physiotherapist who then comes into contact with the athlete, in turn transferring the substance (in infinitesimal quantities), should the athlete be held directly responsible and, consequently, disqualified? Note that Novak Djokovic has also raised the issue, and many others are joining him, because it is something that could happen to anyone. The (sad) reality is that WADA, after all the scandals of the past (even very recent ones) in which it has pretended nothing has happened or looked the other way, wants to create a new "virginity", but it is doing it in the worst possible way. Last but not least: how long does the presidency of the World Anti-Doping Agency last? 5 years? Because the current President has been in office since 2020; this means that in 2025 the current President will have to be re-elected or a new one will have to be appointed. Obviously all this has to do only and exclusively with sports and not with politics, right? Yes, believe it, the Earth is flat and children are born under cauliflowers or are brought by storks...

[@SM-fc3mh]

Well said!

[@Trevebodega]

Looking at the known facts and taking into account the personality of Sinner as a person and as a player it would be huge loss for the tennis if he gets suspended.

[@BOZ_11]

It is utterly bizarre that unconnected people who've never exchanged but a word with Sinner seem to be experts on his ethics and character

[@billiey36]

@@BOZ_11 It is utterly bizarre that you don't know these are tennis insiders. I'm not and I've even heard about his ethics and character.

[@BOZ_11]

@@billiey36 You're a member of the broad set of fatuous people I was referencing.

[@johnlicciardello2389]

If he does not get suspended EVERY player will start doping if they do not already.

[@sportsview247]

48 hours to submit a proposal seems a "short time" to me. Surely if you manage to submit a clear honest proposal in a short time (48 hours) then you must have had a good idea all along of how the substance got in your system. How does this help Jannik? It actually makes him look guiltier... On the other hand having a very long shot clock gives players time to concoct a story. I still think they need to drop it. It was ruled that it was NOT "performance-enhancing" which if it had been then I am sure he would have been banned already. So now it's all about politics and principles.

[@AA-le9ls]

Yes, if Sinner and the others immediately after being notified about the failed drug test suspected the physio and the massage, then why weren't they cautious earlier? It seems like the knew that something could go wrong there. Otherwise they would have needed more time to figure things out.

[@italnsd]

How long do you think it took Ferrara or Naldi upon reading the ITIA letter mentioning clostebol to realize what happened? 30 seconds or less? 😉 There really wasn't much to reconstruct. I am sure in less than one hour they already had contacted the lawyers. It is much worse in those situations without a clear clue, for example the player who got contaminated through food from a restaurant. How on earth can one find that out in 48 hours? It is ridiculously short

[@AA-le9ls]

@@italnsd So the two dudes that you mention knew the whole time that they were being careless with a cream containing a banned substance? That's why they realised immediately that they were guilty and contacted the lawyers within 30 seconds?

[@zetristan4525]

If they have the gall to suspend "the new Djokovic" from tennis even tho he caused nobody any harm, we'll have to ask the old Djokovic to start winning tournaments on tour again.

[@lornawilliams550]

This is about Sinner. It has got NOTHING to do with Djokovic. He is not relevant here!

[@zetristan4525]

@@lornawilliams550 You didn't understand the comment, obviously. Kind wishes🌱

[@lornawilliams550]

@@zetristan4525 Some people will find any excuse to bring Djokovic's name into a conversation regardless....

[@zetristan4525]

​@@lornawilliams550Hopefully you can create a world of reactivity and misunderstanding together with those fanatics then? 🌍🌌🌱

[@eduardochernia]

Andy the players are the bread and butter of your podcast. I know you try to be impartial, but you end up defending the player. It will be what it has to be. Kim is even more evident, she has to meet the guys at the tournaments.

[@BOZ_11]

Politics, is a mo_fo

[@matthewnewnham-runner-writer]

Andy and Kim's take on this sound sensible and right to me. As a decades-long competitive runner, it's becoming increasingly irritating to see the various (usually lame-sounding) excuses trotted out (e.g. tainted burritos) when elite runners test positive. On the other hand, I have no idea how we get to the bottom of doping in sport.

[@candiceevawilliams6]

What if you’re cleaning your blood and it left some behind? Like what the cyclists do in Spain?

[@hbjigcc]

Both tests, 8 days apart, reported a similar level of Clostebol: 121pg/mL on the 10th of March, 122pg/mL on the 18th. If it was some leftover traces of a doping attempt, the level would have been lower (or maybe completely disappered) on the second test. If he "doped" between the first and second test, the level would be higher since that amount of substance is ineffective performance wise. Being positive 2 times is what helped him demostrating this was a contamination.

[@Christo01]

like rafa said, rules are rules.. two drug tests failed... nuff said!!!

[@charmsmelodygeek1004]

Good discussion, but suspension is inevitable. Most of the talking points are good for future consideration to improve the code of conduct or rules. lawyers/experts can come up with various plausible explanation to get their client out of hot water but it will become joke if all these excuses are considered for final judgment. What we want fundamentally is a clean sport so for that law must be applied without any biases whether you are world number one or 100.

[@thomaskreutzer9856]

My opinion on what you said is that. Thay are going against their own rules. If Sinner done everything on what they asked to do just stop this nonsense keep going . Is found no guilty Just let go

[@DaveRessler]

Isn’t the bigger issue someone else who tested positive for the same substance did receive a suspension? That’s the issue not specifically with Sinner it’s consistency that’s the issue.

[@Dano595]

Dopers arent going to admit they are doping. However, he fired the people who he believes are resonsbible for it. It his Sinners resoonsbility to ensure he is surrounded by the correct people. Not people who will come into contact with a banned substance. No matter the circumstances. You have 48 hours to get your story straight. Sinner has been negligent.

[@EhDewd]

To quote Seinfeld, WADA WADA WADA 🤢😆

[@badabing8884]

I don’t think Sinner got any performance benefits from the spray. But he is responsible for the members of his team’s actions. I think the point is that he wasn’t treated like any other tennis player who have tested positive. He was treated as a world number 1. Any other player outside the top 50 would have been hung out to dry.

[@MarK-ly2ml]

The question is, did Nicole Sapstead help Sinner get away with real doping?

[@h-dawg1876]

I think it’s interesting we are seeing more of this “doping” talk and we are seeing more cases in tennis. Sinner level wasn’t high enough to say it benefited his performance. I don’t believe suspension should be a thing. A fine yes but not think refusing a test is more of a red flag. Novak refused test why wasn’t he fined? I mean Andre Agassi was one come and playing tennis. But I think what Martina Navratilova said it how they don’t keep the same standards for their own players during the Olympics is correct. Let sinner play and fine him simple

[@jkmertz7140]

WADA is just looking for an image of credibility to please public opinion, especially after the criticism received for the case of the Chinese swimmers, essentially to demonstrate that there is no preferential treatment for anyone, as more than a few "important voices" in tennis had complained (and also given that there will soon be the possible confirmation of president Witold Bańka) In fact, it usually appeals against the decisions of national bodies, which could suffer from favoritism, and does not appeal in the case of independent courts, strangely for the 23 Chinese swimmers acquitted by their own court they did not lift a finger and for Sinner judged by an independent court (with expert WADA consultants) they are now appealing. Not even for Bortolotti, a case identical to Sinner but he 350 ATP and not famous, have they filed a complaint with the CAS against his acquittal. In any case, in the appeal they do not question that it was an involuntary contamination, but only that there was negligence in controlling the work of its "employees", so much so that they do not request the revocation of all the trophies won after the positivity (so anyone who speaks of doping is wrong) The ITIA, which had appeared against Sinner in the independent tribunal in the two urgent appeals in April and in the final hearing in August, has communicated to WADA that they have followed all the procedures and rules and that the acquittal sentence is valid for them. The result, in addition to covering themselves with ridicule, will be that WADA will have to pay the legal costs and that the haters will continue to be consumed with envy.

[@antoinettekankindi6807]

Do you think like talking about it non stop and trying to push that he be suspended is helping the anti doping policy or Jannik or any other player?

[@aniteivera695]

if... he is innocent, he will be transparent... this time. Forget Simona Halep ? 🤔

[@JoseRamos-li9yj]

At a certain point Sinner was penalized with a couple of weeks off (April???) and a financial fine. So Sinner was considered guilty of something. Also, this time the process was hidden from everybody else for months. Why? Sinner was treated in a different way from other players that were strongly penalized (Simon’s Haley???). It seems not every player is treated the same way on involuntary drug taking ! All the actors in this extremely important issue should have a single approach to all similar cases. Maybe Sinner is not guilty objectively but in the end he is subjectively responsible for his career…….

[@sportsview247]

If i didn't know Clijsters was Belgian i would think she was American 🤪

[@Raphael-n2w]

Once upon a time - in a galaxy long ago, people treated others with rational caring, sensible logic. But oh no, not now. What is most important now is irrational minutiae for the sake of the micro-brained who live for no other purpose than believing they are doing something important.

[@brandonaldaymachuse6669]

Sounds like he was set up. Sinner has been tested many times since...all clean. If they are so hell bent on proving a point, then just take away his IW prize money and call it good. Everything else is fair and square.

[@rodctenis]

I don't know anything about this system, but it seems it's a case of strict liability (it doesn't matter the intention, the fact of finding some substance is enough for the penalty). If that's the case then it must be reasonable to considering the context to fix the penalty. It cannot be the same sanction for a players with high volumes of a substance and formone with a tiny quantity, it cannot be the same sanction for the one using something on purpose and other who is not facing charges for something like not being carefuly enough regarding your team members. Collaboration with the process, track records with the anti-doping controls, etc, should be taking into account to reduce or increase the final sanction.

[@jean-pierreuys1554]

We need the Sinner Alcaraz rivalry. When Bijon Borg quite Mcnroe went into depression. The rivalry stoked the fire for his performance. Se also need him as he is the calmest of the all the new generation. The rest scream and fist pump and pull faces too much. Sometimes I watch without sound. Lol

[@blade1297]

why didn't they "glitch" janniks file too

[@emanuelet1366]

He will not get suspended.

[@stesic74]

In general, the nonsense of this rule is the fact that if you assume a marginal quantity of substance to not obtain advantages, you'll be disqualified anyway. Why? Antidoping must punish you if you cheat. In cases like Jannik case, you sould just pay a fee. Otherwise, one day, as a fan of Jannik, I'll spread my hand with a cream with clostebol, I'll shake my hand with my "tennis enemy"(e.g.Nick) to be sure he will be disqualified for 1 or 2 years. C'mon Wada, be serious.

[@lornawilliams550]

I don't like this speculation about if Sinner gets suspended and how long is reasonable. It's as if Andy is saying 6 months suspension is ok as an act of appeasement. I disagree. I don't think there should be any suspension, based on the facts of the case. As Kim alluded to, it seems that WADA want to exercise their authoriry and be seen as credible. The whole anti doping investigation system and rules need to be reviewed so that there's more clarity and consistency. It's interesting that we don't know the additional information that WADA has put forward to warrant their appeal, only that they think Sinner is responsible for his team's negligence. All we can do is let due process happen and wait for the outcome. Until then, I'm going to park the issue.

[@thenorthboundproject6187]

This doping stuff has just gotten deep, deep, deep into the weeds. As a fan, I just don’t care anymore.

[@jedilady4485]

WADA got bored and wanted to show some flex! LOL

[@seanl6885]

Punishment shouldn't be automatic based on a positive lab result. There is always a story behind, e.g. Did anyone pay Jannik's trainer a large amount of money to taint Jannik's body?

[@sunsetblvd24]

how about some players get immunity to take drugs because of asthma, adhd , lol

[@spyghetti]

WADA is the same organization that did nothing when they had 23 positive tests on a swimming team and did nothing, allowing them to compete in Tokyo 21 Olympics which also resulted in seven of the athletes win medals during that time.. WADA seems desperate to be relevant, it seems strange for them to appeal at this point considering Sinner cooperated already, should he serve some sort of suspension? maybe but a two year ban is very harsh considering a trace amount of a topical.. the science side of testing has increased it's detection although the amount detected to hand down a 'positive' verdict of guilt is a bit silly.

[@zetristan4525]

They had to wade deeper into all this ("crime" that hurt no-one), more money for lawyers, write more legal briefings wada wada wada

[@kennyofatoboiyo7447]

@Andy did it occur to you the levels were low because he doped a while before the positive test? So his levels dropped from where they were. No different to the Ryan Garcia situation in boxing

[@giuseppericci516]

I hope you will be surprised Andy 😊

[@bazaarwallah5444]

But Andy, how do you know that by the time they tested Sinner the drug had worn off and reached lower levels? Meaning that he may have gained performance enhancing benefits earlier on, that allowed him to reach his current Number One ranking. I like Sinner too, but just sayin' ?? 😏

[@SandraLuciano-de9ir]

Sinner loves tennis, but WADA can take away joy. My personal opinion - this is bull, someone/s are creating this nonsense. Look at other players

[@antoinettekankindi6807]

Why can't the trainers be punished for their negligence?

[@AdhiNarayananYR]

Well you could fire the trainer. But he doesn’t face any consequences from these organisations because he is not the player playing the game

[@draganach7694]

Is there any logic for Sharapova to dope at stage of her career when she did? It is not a matter of logic, it is a matter of principle

[@Eyesonly302]

People also has to understand that the rule itself is really really harsh, the two year base suspension is for unintentional doping, intentional would be four years, so even if everyone agreeing and knows for sure that he didnt want to dope, still is within the rules to punish the player, the defence went really into the fine prints of the rules to find a reason to absolve Sinner, and kind of pass the blame on to his team, but the team cannot be punish, only the player can be punish, so I can see why WADA dont want that precedent to stick so easily, Sinner fail the doping test twice, how could nobody be punished for that?

[@emanuelet1366]

Another italian player with the same subtance, lower than top 100, had the same case and was absolved and no WADA claim. This thing is political bullshit.

[@precessionoftheequinoxes3224]

​@@emanuelet1366How is the other Italian player?

[@SergioMRebolledo]

talk about Rios

[@robertomagliulo3185]

Rules are rules, but if you can prove your innocence in a fair trial, I don't think we have to discuss again and again. If the rule was absolute, then they didn't need a trial and the disqualification could be applied istantly to everyone. If you get a trial, then you have to accept the results. At this moment Wada is doing within its possibilities, that's correct. But I would find very strange if different judges will condemn Sinner on the same facts and the same response by Sinner. In any case, I don't think it's correct asking a penalty for Sinner based only about what happened in similari cases in the past. Maybe It night be better if Wada would change the rules, giving more time ti the athletes ti find a response to the accusations and giving more details at what "negligence" is: if you may prove that you have controlla on what you can control and you have tested positive anyway, then there Is not negligence. That's what I think

[@ozankabakyesheplayedcentreback]

Well you certainly changed your tune after the WADA appeal Andy. 🤔

[@taramcdonough3599]

He has the right to change his mind with more information & time. 🧐

[@BOZ_11]

@@taramcdonough3599 there is no new information. He just got on board

[@styro6662]

Unintended mistake, $$$ and points, knowledge and/or intent, months or years.