SethTheProgrammer talks about Ben 10 (ultimate saiyan) vs Goku

[@TheCrocodileKing]

"madara stomps goku and ben"- guy in comments what a legend

[@brookie1141]

Swagkage: so anyways, Madara

[@echidnanatsuki882]

@@brookie1141 ahh yes, the good ol Madara Simp Swag

[@CarthusDojo]

LMAO I DID NOT COME HERE TO GET BULLIED! (11:44) Anyway it’s stated to be a transformation in the anime and manga so y’all can fite me

[@amxra1796]

It seems like Carthu wants ALL the smoke.

[@kingced741]

Huh I didn't know you were subscribed people I watch Especially TRO

[@bulixsfnm3659]

Carthu whats your opinion on ultra instinct

[@christiancinnabars1402]

The way it is set up for Goku, it seems way more likely to be a transformation than just a technique or "state of mind." It shoots his power through the roof, changes his design(giving him silver eyes and a different hair style), and boots him out of his other forms when it is used. In the manga, he even almost reverted to SSJB when he tried to forcefully power up. Kaioken, the proper transformation-like technique, only changes his aura and can be stacked on top of his other forms(SSJ in Z anime filler and SSJB in Super). As of now, UI _cannot_ be stacked on top of other forms, and there is no drawback that would otherwise prevent him from doing so(like Kaioken + SSJ immediately killing him).

[@ddl3718]

pretty sure it's a technique like kaioken but it's still a blurry line. (Edit: I’ve thought about this more and I have to admit defeat. For everyone else it’s a technique, but for goku it’s a transformation. Think about how ui makes goku’s hair change like all other transformations, but Kaioken doesn’t. Maths

[@jhope4978]

Can we just admire that Seth is uploading more often on both his channels?

[@limit2383]

Yeah that PinPin guy needs to step his game up if he wants to compete with Seth

[@jhope4978]

@@limit2383 I'd love to see a collaboration with him and Seth.

[@redajun2593]

Yes and solid vidoes too

[@ImADolphin]

**admiration**

[@dawizz98]

Tbh Seth is fodder compared to pinpin , Pinpin might even slap that programmer fellow as well .

[@greatnyt]

Don’t think a default sayian would have access to god ki

[@mayowaojutalayo5755]

ben can turn into echo echo and multiply 5 times then he turns into 5 bens and the five bens turn into the Saiyan form then give him super Saiyan god form then Goku in the super Saiyan god form plus the ultimatrix 4-6 million years of training in a warzone always coming close to death im pretty sure he would gain a billion zenkais and shit on goku lol or ben could scan whis and become an angel an shit on goku

[@greatnyt]

mayowa ojutalayo that’s not realistic at all also why would whis be present

[@greatnyt]

mayowa ojutalayo all that training doesn’t mean you your going to get ultra instinct

[@greatnyt]

mayowa ojutalayo also when echo splits it counts as the same being

[@mayowaojutalayo5755]

@@greatnyt im just saying if whis was there he could scan whis also echo echo deosnt count as the same being you are referring to ditto as all dittos are linked if a clone of echo echo dies it doesnt matter as long as one survives as seen in ultimate alien when he kept a clone in the car trunk and ultimate kevin killed all the present clones so yes ben could become a saiyan god then repeat the process quadrillion of times to become a super saiyan god and goku would lose so yh

[@laegu5430]

The power of Seth the regular dude is immesurable

[@zero082294]

Manga chapter actually confirms ultra instinct uses god ki, the yardrats couldn’t sense goku and vegeta says he must be using ultra instinct as it’s a power beyond the gods

[@RP-zl5ix]

Manga =/= Anime

[@zero082294]

Styler R. In the anime it’s even more so implied that ultra instinct is something only gods ( not even them mostly) can obtain. I mean come on only the angels who are superior beings to everyone else are the only ones who have perfected and can control UI

[@RP-zl5ix]

@@zero082294 Tien Roshi Gohan and Piccolo could sense his power. Manga and Anime are different both in scaling and techniques/transformation Examples : Hits Timeskip , Ssjblue , Legendary ssj from Kale , Zenkai and even UI In the manga it is treated as a state of mind In the Anime you reach it by hitting your outer limit and its more of a classic transformation. I mean Goku was even angry in MUi and got stronger They work differently in both contuinities.

[@zero082294]

Styler R. They don’t sense his power, they sense immense “pressure” just like they do when goku is using ssj god or blue it’s stated multiple times.

[@prime7042]

zero082294 doesn’t mean it’s god ki

[@videoforlife7086]

I'm wondering if Seth created this second channel to vent? (Honestly, can't blame the guy)

[@Just_Red_]

He created this channel because he's been streaming a lot more lately and putting highlights on youtube reaches a larger audience

[@Big_H2]

The fact that Seth is uploading more is all we ask for

[@axecraft5022]

3rd channel*

[@videoforlife7086]

@@axecraft5022 he has another channel?

[@puffy_jr7521]

@@videoforlife7086 he has pinpin. His debating channel

[@dripzuma8159]

Why do I enjoy Seth yelling at the microphone with whatever just comes to his mind

[@Deforestater]

Also Beerus is millions of years old and he hasn't even mastered ultra instinct yet

[@ShinyNumber1]

Jonathan Essex To be completely fair beerus in canon literally only sleeps and eats food all day until he’s summoned by the Omni king. He’s so lazy that he got Frieza to do his work for him (like when he gave Frieza the go ahead to destroy the Saiyan species as a whole)

[@thestranger2830]

@@ShinyNumber1 there still has to be some amount of training in between the millions of years of naps he's had to take for him to even get some semblance of the form to begin with

[@1stNumberOne]

Goku is a sayain tho. They constantly get stronger and break their limits. At least that’s how I see it..

[@strider_hiryu850]

What do you do after an intense day of training? Rest, recovery, and recuperation. Since Beerus is a god, he needs to train for millions of years before he gets tired/exhausted. It's only fair then that he takes millions years naps. Keep in mind to that these are naps for Gods. I suppose full on sleep would be billions- trillions of years, and hibernation would be universal lengths of time. Again, these are gods, so time to them is non-linear and maybe even irrelevant. If any of that headcanon made sense, I'd be pretty happy.

[@cowmous9204]

Do any of you guys know the background music?

[@Jay-hb3ix]

People seem to misunderstand UI alot The UI technique is just that a technique that even the gods have a hard time attaining It's a state of being/mental state (hence the "instinct") I have a bit of a theory *headcanon* that the reason UI comes out as a transformation for goku is because of Goku's mental state If UI is a state of being then the technique might differ in appearance based on the user's mentality As a saiyan they goku "transforms" to gain a greater power moreso than just learning new techniques

[@spaceyofficial.0127]

Ur smart the sane can be said about God Ki right?

[@WildWeavile]

Yeah ui is a factor....but alien x is basically dna from a god, he can straight repair a universe. Alien x could destroy partially the universe itself and goku will die alongside with it, while he would perfectfully fine till he wants to bring back goku or the universe. The only thing that can kill alien x is it's own race, goku is power and can use zenakis but the only thing that can kill celestialsapien is another celestialsapien... or a multiverse time bomb.

[@tendaiball5598]

Goku probably has to transform because he is a mortal. I think he turns into a temporary god to use it

[@kendalluzumaki74]

Goku still weak

[@kendalluzumaki74]

@Gucci Guwop for ur small brain to understand I'll say in my personal opinion naruto can beat super goku

[@killiancraftofcraftyworks975]

It's a million years of evolutionary progress, not a single being training for a million years. The guy doesn't seem to understand that it's supposed to make the perfect genome for that species. What I'd guess is a broly like Saiyan as that's raw power and potential that he was born with. Wouldn't get ultra instinct though.

[@killiancraftofcraftyworks975]

Probably wouldn't have a tail, like the universe 6 Saiyans. Might be able to access ssj3 power in base, removing the stamina drain and the need to transform. Strong emphasis on MIGHT. Considering if none in the genetic line become a super Saiyan to start with, they won't pass on the S-Cells to turn it into the proverbial bargain sale. Soooo... The ultimate Saiyan would probably be the equivalent to ssj3 broly, and we would need gogeta to beat him. All speculation of course. 1,000,000 years of evolution can change a lot of things, turning things into something almost unrecognizable from what it was originally.

[@oxiclean8536]

@@killiancraftofcraftyworks975 he'd have a tail due to the fact that he's a new saiyan but like he'd broly level at least maybe ssj3 plus uhhh imagine if he went oozaru as broly because gogeta really got scared of ssj beserk broly he didn't even go ssj2 yet.

[@nitro-verse5311]

Fuck yes bro i was thinking the same thing

[@jordantinucci3509]

a perfect genome wouldn't matter in this case, you don't unlock any of the saiyan forms with just training, just ssj requires both the training drive and the emotional drive.

[@killiancraftofcraftyworks975]

@@jordantinucci3509 goten and kid trunks would like to have a word with you.

[@Flipitmixit]

Ultra instinct has NOTHING to do with saiyans, how does Ben turning into an ultimate saiyan give him ultra instinct when it's not a saiyan transformation? Maybe the ultimate saiyan would be more like Broly but this ultra instinct thing is just foolish. And even then he wouldnt Actually have Broly's power.

[@awildkuribohappears5834]

If ben were to turn into a saiyan he would be at the prime of a saiyans power due to the omnitrix. He also learns all the species naturally does, this video doesnt talk anything about how the omnitrix actually works but at the same time the article seems to be refrencing the ultimatrix which doesnt have that feature. With the real omnitrix ben would be able to access all levels of super saiyan and most likely some more evolved form such as ssj4. More so over the omnitrix houses godly power so god and blue wouldnt be to far of a stretch. But why do that when it most likely has actual gods dna due to the little goo aliens who collected dna from everything in the multiverse

[@cascada5200]

@@awildkuribohappears5834 No he wouldn't, remember a saiyan with a PL of 18000 was considered exceptional back in the saiyan saga which is the most accurate when talking about a saiyan base abilities, Goku and Vegeta got their power through intense training and extensive battle, Ben (if he took an average saiyan) would likely have a PL of 5000 - 15000 but would have access to Saiyan Power (often refer to as Zenkai) and have the natural growth of saiyan's however this would not put him on equal ground with Goku or Vegeta, remember most of what makes Goku and Vegeta so powerful is what they have learned throughout the year which while it comes easier to saiyan's is not something that is encoded into their DNA, an example of this is KI sensing which vegeta did not know before arriving on earth and Goku learned though Master Roshi, Korin, Mr Popo, and Kami. While Ben maybe able to access all the ascended version of a saiyan he would not be able to control it to the degree that either Vegeta or Goku do, think of it this way its a teenage with a decade of street brawling experience vs a martial arts master with almost a half century of battling. To put it bluntly saiyans as a race are awesome but not really that game-breaking, unless you are talking about the genetic freak that is Broly all other saiyans are really just extra tough human.

[@flamethekid]

@@cascada5200 it was considered exceptional because the Saiyans have been in an extremely steep decline for a very long time now since they left their home planet and moved to planet vegeta and went into a bigger decline since the cold dynasty took over.

[@willyates8071]

flamethekid That doesn’t matter. That’s still what the genetic prime was at that time.

[@evolveaxsym9422]

@@willyates8071 genetic prime means that he'll have the most potential. For instance, if he fought goku and vegeta then he'd become stronger than broly. But if he is in his own universe, he'd become either too weak or much stronger by just training with celestialsapiens or sumthin.

[@RomanStan]

If Brody is considered a peak Sayain, and if that Same Broly was training by basically fighting for over a million years in “Doom Guy Land,” he would be way too op. Look at Broly after training with his dad, who was weak af, for about 40+ years. Imagine him for over a million years in a constant hell

[@clown7666]

That's not a bad train of thought but the omnitrix isn't giving Ben a saiyan body that trained for a million years. It's giving him the body of what a saiyan would evolve into after a million years in an apocalypse. An ultimate Saiyan would be guaranteed to have way more S-cells than a regular saiyan, which includes Goku and Vegeta (leaving out Broly as he's anything but a regular saiyan). We know from Goten, Trunks, and Gohan that ½ saiyans are more emotional due to their human heritage which grants them access to bigger boosts when enraged. In the same way that ½ saiyans gain a genetic bonus, the Ultimate Saiyan would also gain more genetic bonuses and would be almost and entirely separate race from saiyans. An example would be Gorillas and us Humans

[@deadtheories4170]

Broly isn't the saiyan "peak" Vegeta is. Broly is a mutant of the species

[@CloudyDaze]

@@deadtheories4170 Hypothetically then, Ben could scan Goku and Broly as separate transformations and turn into the ultimate version of either one.

[@malikstovall970]

Let’s hope Ben doesn’t feel the tingle in his back 🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️

[@blesson5184]

There needs be a genetically engineered saiyan in super made with a concept of training for a million years in simulation with each battle consisting of near death situations and introducing transformations such as SSJ4 into an evolution of a saiyan as a base form gone through tens of thousands of battle . This base ssj4 saiyan will have the same multiplier as 10x ssj3 and able to stack ssj on top it calling it ssj prime 1,2 and 3. This saiyan will be genetically engineered to have high speed healing, enhanced learning and nearly unlimited endurance due to getting ass whooped for a million years and also able to adapt to any fighting techniques and transformation because of high learning capabilities.

[@reallyhimongod]

Maybe in the next arc frieza creates a genetically modified saiyan because Broly beat his ass so bad🤣

[@drakenpriest]

@@reallyhimongod Bio-Broly 2.0 lol

[@anidiot192]

Saiyans wouldn't even evolve in that scenario, they'd get stronger, but no evolution for them (see: super saiyan blue evolution for why I'm wrong on no evolution) they already thrive in that scenario, although it's a really good concept to have a villain be cell again, but more saiyan and trains for a million years.

[@AMV_KINGDOM_mv]

@@anidiot192 ? They would get super sayain form for a fact wether they would get god ki is up to debate because we don't know if it naturally and the reason I say that is because the oracle knew that their would be a super sayain god so idk if it hereditary or not of if you can learn it but we know for a fact he would be ss4 as that def apart of natural evolution and let be generous and say it take him 1000 year with beast Gened always on the Brink of death to transform into 4 which doesn't make any sense when you put it into context that like saying goku has to train for 1000 year to be ss4 but we know that's not true and while he constantly fighting he wouldnt be constantly fighting like the scenario the ultimatrix would give

[@FumanyuX]

@@anidiot192 the ultimate feature MAKES them evolve, so yeah they would turn into something superior of a sayan

[@Power-9Hunnid]

Dude who held the big bang vs Dude fighting Purple Tom shaking the macrocosm.

[@schemar17]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@MrPomegranX]

Is this the Dragon Ball Expert, Death Battle killer, Pin PIN!?

[@coreyrheams9123]

It indeed is

[@kumiq17]

**This turned into a long comment somehow** I mean as someone that watched both series Ben using Goku's DNA getting the S Cells to, he would be "Goku", but how it works is that he would be "Goku" at Ben's Age fitness and health. For example when Ben had the flu all his aliens had a transformed strain of the flu. So we need to assume adult Ben in perfect pyshical condition and health and even then that might not be enough with Goku's DNA for him to match Goku. I mean Hercule and Krillin are both humans, both are in "Peak" pyshical condition but one is definately stronger then the other. So we got to assume they are equal. Another thing to consider. Ben would have a tail. So if we assume many things we would have a Ben as "Goku" but as a "Goku" without Goku's level of skill, the knowledge of ki, or how to transform, and without Goku's way of thinking, although he would think like a Saiyan he would not think like Goku. Ben loses. Now Ultimate Sayian Ben. The ultimate forms are not 1,000,000 years of training. It's simulated natural selection in a hard environment. This can lead to some unique abilities and additional strength. That said, we don't know how hard a environment it simulates nor if it could proper use Sayian biology to the maximum. Although keep in mind this will probably be simulations of "Gokus" fighting in base form as gaint apes and maybe as far up as supersayian 2. The most I can see is the base being far stronger with more S Cells and a greater Zenkai boost expressing the great ape form while in a mutated base with the natural knowledge of ki control and the ability to go up to super Saiyan 2.....So basically a Goku like Canon Broly only he looks like SSJ4 and that's his base. He would not know how to fly, do the Kamehameha or fight but since he is a evolved Goku he should be able to learn those things pretty quickly like with flying as heatblast....does he beat Goku? Maybe. It depends how fast Ben grows and learns, and if Goku has mastered ultra instinct and what the power of that is. Also assuming Goku can't mess with the watch and the watch doesn't limit Ben. I do not see Ben having God ki though. Maybe he can advance to supersayian 3 but even as a ultimate sayian "Goku" I still think he would have to stay transformed for a month and train with whis to get God ki

[@TeeComedian]

I like your point about battle prowess, I've always seen Ben 10's fighting as more of a response to a threat than an active interest. Off the top of my head I can't think of examples of Ultimate Aliens that improved that skill of his, but it's been a while.

[@kumiq17]

@@TeeComedian Thanks. I mean Ben always has certain instincts and can learn what his body can do quickly but especially in the original show he struggled some to figure out how to use his aliens. He burnt down a forest as heat blast (and took a long time to figure out how to fly), he wasn't used to Canon bolt, he had no idea what to do with upchuck until he was told, he was not using diamond Head to his full potential and there is a whole episode about that. While he does get more used to learning stuff quickly as he gets older we do not see all of his battles nor every time he transforms. Every episode is a time skip in which Ben is using his aliens and training with them, as well as fighting common enemies. He just has Goku's DNA, not his body that has been trained for decades and is used to stuff like the kiaoken. Stuff that would never be simulated in the watch since it's not natural. It's a skill like sword fighting.

[@offthaweed7512]

The experience argument falls apart because of the existence of broly who’s training was essentially dodging wild animals and with his weaker father who taught him the basics at best(in terms of skill level compared to goku and vegeta)then he came to earth and proceeded to body both of them before he even transformed into a super saiyan.

[@kumiq17]

@@offthaweed7512 broly does not ruin experience. Broly won because he was simply stronger because his potential was so high and his ability to just keep increasing his strength. You can tell that he just fights nearly wildly. Yes he is a prodigy in fighting to but he is not that good and he had some training in that. Yes he had a weak person to train with but that person was teaching him technique not making him stronger Basically you can't say Ben by passes experience because there is one intentionally broken character in dragon Ball super

[@offthaweed7512]

@@kumiq17 but your ignoring the fact that Ben isn’t a trash fighter dude has been fighting since he was 10 years old and has plumbers training in CQC and martial arts. Then it gets hard to defend goku dealing with what is essentially broly on steroids with the ultimate feature broly got by with bare minimum training in comparison to goku and vegeta.But he was genetically gifted to the point his potential was a threat to the planet since his birth.The omnitrix makes Ben into a prime example of the species broly pushed 2 40 year old experienced martial artists saiyans to the point of fusion. So it’s like compare that level of power and let it go through zenkai boosts and adapt in a simulation for 1 million years broly was a forced to be reckoned with on a desolate planet eating bugs and drinking piss.(it’s scary to think about).

[@linkfan6555]

The ultimate saiyan would be basically a better version of broly, with all new abilities and improvements on the old ones, I’m imagining it looks like a much bigger ss4 with more features(Sorta like fanart of ss5 broly), for abilities I’m imagining the zenkai is improved in some way (Maybe it would work like doomsday’s ability) the ability to fight in any environment and adapt is also improved and there’s all new super saiyan forms (It would be much easier to break the ultimate saiyans limits and transform into a new form) on top of the incredibly strong base that looks like ss4, the fighting sense of the saiyans is also improved allowing the ultimate saiyan to improve even faster then someone like Hit or Super Broly. I’m sure there would be more but what I’m trying to say is that the ultimate feature of the ultimatrix isn’t just some unlock potential on Ben’s forms the ultimate version of a species is practically a whole new species, so the ultimate saiyan would be so evolved that it wouldn’t even be considered a ‘Saiyan’ anymore.

[@Ponera-Sama]

I maintain that the *normal* Omnitrix Saiyan would already be like Broly, because the Omnitrix turns its user into the absolute peak of the species they transform into. Neither form would naturally have God forms or Ultra Instinct because these aren't Saiyan transformations, but Ben 10 wouldn't need to go ultimate in order to have the immense potential of Broly.

[@zangetsu5221]

​@Nathan Terrelonge-Tillery Do you think the omnitrix, when scanning a single alien, references a list of all of that species members? Like it has to know about every single member to know what peak is? Like if it were to simulate a human, it would need to know about Usain Bolt to know how fast a peak human could run? It has a way of knowing the upper limits of any species, forces the genetic code to be capable of that limit, and basically power levels the alien in question to this upper limit. Saiyan's don't really have upper limits, as stated by quite a few characters in DBZ/DBS. So you could make an arguement that this would be a saiyan that at base matches DBS goku, as it would be 4D. 4D because infinite 3D. Also, this saiyan would have at least SSJ, most likely 2 and 3 as well, so stack those on top. There's also the fact that the Ultimate Saiyan isn't one Saiyan, forced to fight for a million years, this is one peak level Saiyan, arguably 4D, acting as the starting point of an evolutionary chain, with the evolution have a designed end goal, making this Saiyan and their entire following lineage as strong/skilled as they could be after a million years, generation after generation. Then, the end point, after thousands of generations of evolution, which Saiyans are rapidly capable of within a singular generation, the strongest of the new "Saiyan" race is the one actually utilized. I think Goku stomps just about any universe, with some exceptions, and I think this may be one of them, especially with Broly being stronger than Goku, living on Vampa his whole life, not really training.

[@nathanmontgomery1516]

Zangetsu if that’s the case how come Ben can’t scan mutations from his own species, oh wait that’s right he was never shown too nor was it never implied

[@jfproductions4141]

10:40 is still the rawest “ENOUGH” I’ve heard from someone in a while

[@jfproductions4141]

10:39

[@kotomixkyou]

I mean, it’s pretty head cannon to assume that in the one million years of genetic competition that there’s no singular event that ever triggers Ben 10’s version of the ultimate Saipan to undergo trauma or “triggers” for him to go to a different levels of super Saipan. You could easily make the argument that given Saiyan physiology and a million years of evolving would be a crazy amount of zenkai boosts. Obviously in the dragon ball universe the saiyans have to undergo trauma or certain events to obtain new forms, that’s called a character arc and plot progression. But if you just take the rules of the universe at face value, there’s no reason why Ben 10’s version of a saiyan wouldn’t have transformation forms. If you consider everything in dragon ball Super cannon, then the female saiyans that can just unlock new saiyan forms without any trauma are also cannon.

[@SneakyBeaky1]

Yeah, the ultimate forms are the aliens undergoing millions of years of the harshest conditions imaginable. Then at the end of it, they use what the alien evolved into to handle the conditions.

[@ArsayumTheThird]

I don't doubt that the "Ultimate" Saiyan would get the Super Saiyan forms, but would that hypothetical Saiyan's environment constitute enough growth that they constantly develop through out the whole one million years instead of capping out at some random century or millennia? Saiyans easily jump to being hundreds of times stronger via Zenkais and transformations, meanwhile I don't think any of the Ultimate Aliens in the Ultimatrix have even gone beyond 10x stronger than their original forms. Would the Saiyan just reach a point where they transcend their environment, or would whatever environment they're set in scale up and become more dangerous as the Saiyan grows in power?

[@TELEKINETICxBOLT]

no in a 1 on 1 fight he woudln t just have ultra instinct

[@TELEKINETICxBOLT]

yes Ben could turn into sayain, but he wouldn't have anything. no power levels no techniques no super sayian . which you have to earn.

[@SneakyBeaky1]

Rolando Carlos Manuel that's because the other aliens don't have benefits like Zenkai. These aliens most of the time aren't as strong as a saiyan, so a saiyan would most likely go through much much harsher conditions than the other aliens in the simulation.

[@jza3338]

Happened after this video but important to note that in the manga Moro copying ultra instinct destroyed his body

[@TuboReese]

If we're going by the guy who wrote that article's logic, ultra instinct isn't connected to the God's. If that was the case...... Goku would've unlocked that shit a long time ago

[@F4l3n]

Your "energy" (you hostile, my guy) prevented me from wanting to subscribe before this video, but your pointing out his UI timing issue cinched the sub going forward. 🤣

[@eltigreduarte8977]

I agree with your UI theory, it makes sense. Whis said Goku “broke his shell” when he unlocked UI and gained access to potential beyond his normal limits, so I feel like what happened is that UI somehow became attached to Gokus potential so when he releases that power UI comes with it, that would explain why he gets an actual physical boost

[@SuperNeospace]

I disagree, I think of it more like accessing his true potential without straining himself. Almost like ui comes with mystic boost. You know how the human body doesn't use most of it's strength because if it did we would shatter our teeth from how strong our bites actually are. So it just gives him like "true" control of himself. That's my theory

[@eltigreduarte8977]

dooby boody Thats what I’m saying, Whis states Goku had a deep reservoir of energy that he awakened to when the spirit bomb tried to kill him, so it’s basically Goku using 100% of his potential with no limits, and some way or another it seems to have attached itself to UI, so when he activates UI he also gets the boost and not just the dodge hax

[@bantuboi3131]

Broly calls all of this into question though. He had a transformation that was rivaling god ki, while not having god ki himself. So if Ben could become that kind of saiyan, he has a chance.

[@wowok1616]

Yup and it took a fusion to overwhelm and defeat broly's ongoing legendary transformation rampage.

[@amarjo351]

Broly is a genetic outlier tho the chance that ben would change into a legendary sayan is slim

[@amarjo351]

But then again if ben was able to scan broly (and the TRAIN for as long as he did) he might have a chance.

[@thewinger337]

Amar jo but the thing is that the omnitrix turns them into the genetic peak, so if broly is the genetic peak then umm, uhhh, he turns into broly or even stronger than him

[@bantuboi3131]

@@amarjo351 yeah but the omnitrix ultimate feature adds like 1 million years of evolutionary power to the transformation. Thats why Ben can beat the aliens he scans himself as. Hes automatically a stronger variant.

[@deonjoyner960]

I'm not going to lie, I had it in my head that with zenkai's taken into account along with the 1 million years of war D.N.A simulation. He'd clap goku, U.I or not. But i remembered the who "diminishing returns" from over training. (Like what goku was telling piccolo when he left the chamber). It's definitely interesting to consider.

[@zangetsu5221]

The mistake here is that the simulation isn't going to be one guy fighting in "doomguy land" this is a evolutionary lineage, and the whole diminishing return could potentially be adapted out in a million years. Plus the diminishing returns thing is more plot convenience than actual fact. In the TOP, both goku and vegeta get massively stronger, while heavily fatigued, to the point that they are both able to rough and tumble with Jiren, while being next to out of energy the whole time. Then there is Broly getting massively more powerful as his fight with both Goku and Vegeta goes on.

[@Lh0000]

@Zangetsu Would he even GET zenkais? Like you said it’s not one guy in doom-land, Zenkai’s only really apply to one person being put near death, this then brings out more of their latent power (logically this would also mean that the diminishing returns thing couldn’t be adapted out, since well, this limitation is inherent to the power up itself, you only have so much latent power, to draw from) so Ben’s ultimate alien wouldn’t actually HAVE any zenkai boosts, since the ultimate saiyan form itself hadn’t actually been directly put in any near death experiences. Also you explicitly can’t get zenkai’s from self inflicted damage, so since the ultimate saiyan is for all intents and purposes a part of the omnitrex, then the simulated evolutionary hell might count as “self inflicted” (and unlike with vegeta and krillin, there’s nobody else there to loophole it)

[@madslayer4197]

Seth has no chill and I love it. I'm dying!

[@ttf1298]

Throwback to that 3 way collab with kuro and chuck with the saucy intro

[@yashaoftheflames8475]

whose channel is the collab on?

[@justmixah3408]

Ameir Adil kuro

[@ttf1298]

I think it’s on seth’s main channel too

[@abunchofflipsaintwrestling7008]

I think that was the last Chuck and Seth collaboration 😔😔

[@jibrael5705]

Can someone link the collab please?

[@neilkirby6160]

Something else to consider is the Zenkai boosts that this hypothetical Ultimate Saiyan would be evolved to handle over the course of a million years.

[@Josh-sc1mr]

I would say UI is a transformation in Goku's case, Goku's appearance literally transforms. Also even if UI is mutually exclusive from God Ki, it has nothing to do with saiyans and therefore I don't understand how Ben would have any experience or knowledge to attain that form

[@MrJokerSenpai]

I think Ultra instinct isnt a transformation, but for a saiyan, it IS a transformation, none of the angels have silver hair/silver eyes, (angels have white hair not silver) and beerus' ultra instinct didnt change him at all. Saiyans power up and evolve through transformation, its built into their body to change form and adapt. I think goku's body transformed to handle the ultra instinct in a saiyan like way, making it a transformation, albeit a transformation that requires a certain "state of mind" to activate.

[@DiZTryr]

It’s a technique

[@delz5863]

@@DiZTryr did you even read his comment

[@oreoex-rwbyhater599]

A technique yet it changes your genetics like hair color and color like all other forms have. As erll as boost stats. Okay

[@awildkuribohappears5834]

Its a technique, gokus physical apearance changes due to his body naturally heating up as the fight went on, and the actual color diffrence is so the readers understand something is actually going on and its not just base goku. Quite like how super saiyan was originally made

[@underrated2064]

Wtf beerus doesn’t even have UI . Where did you even get the info from?

[@gxashxg299]

This is a goldmine of pure comedy

[@asimimran5083]

I personally think that if Ben had an ultimatrix and Saiyan DNA, the Ultimate for of a Saiyan would be Super Saiyan 4.

[@leirbag1595]

With no God ki to input and discounting UI, as it's mostly from the mind, then yeah. SSJ4 is pretty much the natural maximum potential of a Saiyan.

[@bulixsfnm3659]

Yea

[@Coolguy98765]

I think people are low-balling Ultimate. It represents a million years of evolution, so it would be a Saiyan completely unlike Goku or Vegeta. It might have Buu-tier regeneration abilities and limitless stamina or impenetrable skin. It could be literally anything.

[@asimimran5083]

@@Coolguy98765 that is true, it could be anything. Just part of feels that the "Ultimate Saiyan" would be something like Super Saiyan 4 if not the actual form.

[@some_shitposting_idiot3023]

@@Coolguy98765 too bad it's only put Ben at a level around the peak AVERAGE sayain since vegeta goku and any other super powerfil sayians are outliers. Also its complete retardation that the omnitrix would make the user the peak of a race considering the peak performance of literally everything changes all the time with evolution and metamorphosis

[@kingcreedo6010]

Beerus who is millions of years old=Hasn't yet perfected true U.I. Goku less then 100 years old=Mastered ultra instinct

[@purplecadence7390]

DADDY SETH. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH. I FUCKING LOVE YOU. YOUR INTELLECT. THE WAY YOU BREAK DOWN THINGS. YOU. AND YOUR CHANNELS. PLEASE. KEEP DOING THIS SHIT.

[@cracktoon_powerscaling]

Simp

[@AndrewAce.]

UI isn't Genetic, if anything, it's a learned skill and I'd have to be convinced that Ben would even be able to perform basic Ki manipulation let alone UI. All of these things are sold separately, even though Saiyans are inherently more talented fighters, they still need to acquire them for themselves. Even Zamasu, a prodigy among the Kai's needed much training to acclimate to Goku's body and even unlock a form despite the fact that he literally swapped bodies with Goku and didn't just copy his genes... _Ultimate Wukong_ (my name for him) isn't Ben's best bet in a fight against Goku. Also, Ben doesn't win against anyone, there are so many fictional characters who would slap him, Goku, and Superman all at once...

[@karlyn132]

Bro your like a saint! I missed this part of the steam cus I was working, but my goodness your here!!😁😁👏🏿

[@soka6732]

Also about the whole UI thing. UI isn’t a saiyan exclusive ability. By that logic, any alien he transforms into will obtain UI. The way that one obtains UI is very specific. Survival on a battlefield won’t do anything. Saiyans lives in war zones and it took until bardock and goku to obtain simply SSJ. The whole “ultimate saiyan” thing wouldn’t be a useful as he thinks. He would probably just be an above adverse saiyan, which is absolute fodder even compared to characters like krillin

[@holyzenith2229]

Honestly, there's a lot of variables here to give a clear cut answer about how an hypothetical Ben sayan would be, but people saying that it could copy all Goku's habilities, or even copying habilities from other sayans, because it turns you into a perfect exemplar of the species, with all the best habilities, to me is like to say that the omnitrix could give Ben all Kuririn, Master Hoshi, Tenshinhan and other earth z-fighters habilities by scaning a random passerby on the street. Or attaining reality warper powers by scanning a random person on one of Marvel Universe's Earth.

[@DCTRC]

Because it’s true. Gokus techniques become apart of his biology. For example, cell. A bio android Who was able to use Kamehameha has and destructo disc. As far as we’re concerned, the capture mode of the omnitrix scans, copies, and improves the DNA adapting it to Ben Tennyson. It’s very likely that if Ben where to use capture mode on Goku he would have his abilities, atleast the ones that don’t have divine origin, like things that require God Ki. And the argument of the omnitrix ignoring that is also unlikely because of the Data Dump that is given in capture mode.

[@holyzenith2229]

@@DCTRC That's not true. Cell has those techniques because of the data collected by Dr Gero spy robots. And even if they are, without Goku's mind even his cells can't actually reproduce his full potential, as proved by Ginyu and even Zamasu when each one stole Goku's body.

[@DCTRC]

@@holyzenith2229 the data collected was the z fighters DNA. Plus Goku black was proven to be stronger than Goku with his own abilities. Ginyu simply wasn’t acustom to the body, but obviously still had gokus strengh.

[@holyzenith2229]

@@DCTRC no, data is information, not DNA, Gero's machines filmed the fights and made calculations. And Ginyu never achieved Goku's full strength. Zamasu achieved a very high power because he had the advantage of time travel, so he had time to develop Goku's body power, but Vegeta said that he couldn't develop it's full potential without Kakarot's mind, so, if Goku makes the same Zamasu did, he would have better results.

[@DCTRC]

@@holyzenith2229 The TRACKING device given the name Spy Robot did indeed analyze Goku and the other fighters but in order to create cell he needed there cells which was also why the tracking robot was created. Another thing to note is that Ben will not Turn into Goku, hells become a semi hybrid Saiyan merged with a few parts of his DNA to become his own form, with more potential than Goku. Any DNA with capture mode would still be copied. Even if Ben didn’t have all of gokus techniques he could watch him do it and be able to do it instantly, just like tien and possibly cell. Let’s also not forget that mr popo was able to create a clone of Goku from clay and a strand of his hair.

[@Gruntled346]

Ultimate alien simulates the evolution required to survive in that hellscape after 1000000 years not the training of a single individual for that long and on top of it I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that Ben becomes pretty much the best possible example of any alien species he transforms into so... I guess Ben would turn into some kind of ultimate Broly?

[@crazeay3800]

I don't think so. I'm pritty sure he would have the DNA of a normal saiyan where as broly is a legendary saiyan making him a special case and not the norm.

[@madlegend8834]

@@crazeay3800 ben can turn to chromastone who is very similar to broly for diamondhead species

[@crazeay3800]

@@madlegend8834 then from what I can tell its an outlier because Ben cant turn into the of other species "legendary" equivalent. Its been a while since I watched the show tho so if he can feel free to correct me

[@madlegend8834]

@@crazeay3800 chromostone is the legendary equivalent for the diamondhead species

[@crazeay3800]

@@madlegend8834 I know that but what I'm saying is I don't know if he can do that with every species in the omnitrix.

[@LuciferArc1]

I hypothesize that because saiyans use transformations to tap into their underlying power, its probably the same when Goku uses UI, it becomes enhanced into a transformation. Thats just my theory

[@UluvNacho]

Let’s think about it this way only one sayian has unlocked super sayian in the last 1000+ years 🤷‍♂️ think about it

[@AMV_KINGDOM_mv]

No see that not how it work every day would be zenkai boost for 1 million year it would be something they would probably go beyond anything it like fighting frieza everyday but he way stronger than you everytime

[@Eclipse1983]

Wasn't Goku's SSJ3 form acquirement heavily implied to have been a success because he was dead at the time because of the strain it has? That he might have never "unlocked" (at least as quickly) if he was alive. The first transformation always seems the hardest, and then they adapt it after holding on to the form? They seemed to imply that ssj3 more special in that regards. Was it still a drain on Goku in the ToP? I can't remember. UI definitely appears to be a transformation-ish. I always saw it different from the others, where the others are transformations to increase stats, I feel like UI in Goku there was a precursor to use/maintain it, and the amp was a requirement. Similar but not the same as the original God form. Whis didn't seem to recognize it at first which I felt was weird. He knows UI I would think he would have recognized it quicker. Both Jiren and whis comment about the "heat". Like normal transformations would be like the increase of energy to move an electron to an outer shell, where is UI the electron is already in the outer shell and the energy is instantly provided not to break the laws of physics type deal. Not great analogy but... LIke the transformation was required to close the gap to allow him to gain UI then and there. Maybe it's both, maybe the physical changes are just for viewer to easily recognize when he is using it.... Goku and Vegeta get stronger as they master their SS states, if you by pass the need to think the efficiency gain to power and speed would be quite large... I don't know. It's weird. then you have MUI. That suppose to be the pinnacle right? but how does MUI Goku stack up to Whis? There is gap there right? It's not like they would stuck fighting on par? Then the Grand Priest, Zeno. Especially with the manga's continuation...

[@NinjaRemake]

I'm just triggered he is referring to the "Ultimatrix" as the "Omnitrix"

[@NinjaRemake]

@Maurice Johnson Its not Seth's fault, he's literally quoting the dude exactly lmao

[@willyates8071]

Pagan Dude the Ultimatrix is the flawed creation of Albedo. Azmuth himself critiques the shoddy workmanship. The true creation that Ben 10,000 from the future in Ultimate Alien is the OMNITRIX, not the ULTIMATRIX.

[@thehighestorder2868]

@@willyates8071 Actually he called Albedo's recreated version of the ultimatrix a clever device

[@willyates8071]

The Highest Order No he literally said, “What shoddy workmanship” in that episode where the Ultimate forms fully developed their own consciousness. I don’t recall him saying at any point in the series that the Ultimate transformation was a clever idea.

[@thehighestorder2868]

@@willyates8071 That was the original ultimatrix ben used. I'm talking about Albedo's recreated ultimatrix in omniverse unless you didn't watch that series

[@soulmustdie3631]

Saw someone in the chat asking about “The Kin of Sparda”. If you’re seeing this, guy, Dante and Vergil are minimum Universal but I’ve seen arguments for them being multiversal

[@jordantinucci3509]

Apparently mundus was going to fill a infinite amount of dimensions with darkness so yeah I can see multiversal for them.

[@yachtdaniels3219]

Also the dude writing this article doesnt even know the ben 10 lore the ultimate feature puts the DNA through a 1 million year warzone but it's not a single person evolving like that it's a species so it's not the person living in the warzone but the species meaning it's a descended of the first 100 years of the war combatants its evolution scientifically for evolution to work it has to be a descendant the process this guy is thinking about is more akin to metamorphosis but it's not evolution so in short while the "Ultimate saiyan" would have super saiyan 3 ir even something beyond that and even stronger base than your average saiyan he would not have god ki nor ultra instinct cause it would be a 16 year old saiyan (that's how old ben was in ultimate alien) and not a saiyan who had survived a million years of war so UI at age 16 even if your species evolved and you've had 16 years of grueling warfare is pretty farfetched

[@thewinger337]

ok but the thing is that he would be a 16 year old war hardened version of BROLY this man would literally be BROLY or fucking stronger

[@mevincool]

Im honestly so lost on exactly what you were saying but with the whole ultimate sayian but basically ben gets a regular saiyan at its peak so basically a vegeta/broly type of high class warrior of jump then the ultimatrix puts it in a simulated battlefield where they would go through near dead experiences for a few million years or however long it was to unlock to greater form of power. Even with god ki i don't think goku would win with ssbkk ui idk but then again who to say that with the ultimate saiyan he doesnt get a zenkai boost aswell so it could very well end up like a broly situation where he will just overpower goku and i say that because goku doesnt finish off threats at all he likes to mess around and test their power which would end up with him losing because of it.

[@spec7923]

the Winger that’s still not very impressive, Goku at his strongest claps, Goku with no UI probably loses but it honestly depends cause they could’ve ended Brody at the beginning of the movie but let him get too strong

[@b.a.w5748]

The guy who wrote this article Probably thought the ultimatrix feature was like the hyperbolic Time Chamber but it more like how you said it just the DNA going through multiple processes of natural selection in the worst case scenario

[@AliceIsSleepy]

the Winger I mean... Broly is a mutant, so maybe?

[@martendo67]

Seth keep up the good work man , honestly wanted to see you uploading weekly to bi weekly...it was literal cancer always refreshing KZbin for new content from you I used to have anxiety attacks when you would upload...my girlfriend left me cause I hung up the phone on her when she told me her Parrot died to watch your Naruto vs the Espada...I love your debates and content man and I miss your debunks.

[@pablitorogel14]

Yeah, that's dudes wasn't the best argument but I'd still say a ultimate saiyan would beat goku. If we take a look at the best features of saiyans that come purely from genetics, we can take Broly's base strength, potential and ability to fuse ozaru strength to base with Goten, trunks and Caulifla's ease of transformation without a catalyst and with that saiyan having thousands of year of intense training would probably clap UI goku with ssj2. I know it's partly head Canon but it's hard without proper confirmed comparison of transformation boosts. The way I see it is that if goku felt that they had no chance against super saiyan Broly at the stage they were at, after Broly increased his strength many fold throughout the fight, a perfect saiyan would be many fold stronger than Broly by the end of the movie with at least an ssj2 multiplier and it's extremely unlikely that would be weaker than a ssb x20 goku and not a stretch that could beat UI goku.

[@Pauliyd466Gaming]

Ben wouldnt know how to use saiyan cells properly, would be another goku black situation..(remember what vegeta said while beating him down) Also wouldnt know how to use Ki properly either

[@emperorsunnyshore9272]

Pauliyd466 The ultimate would just be a saiyan born today, and that was turned into a adult with incredible potential. Broly already had some training with his father, and fought planet level creatures for food. The ultimate saiyan would just have access to ssj or ssj2. Nobody thought there was a form even higher than ssj2. Goku got ssj3 with training, and Gotenks got it because he saw Goku do it. Goten and Trunks already had some form of training to begin with unlike the ultimate saiyan.

[@Pauliyd466Gaming]

@@emperorsunnyshore9272 he wouldnt have access to any of ssj until he went through a moment of rage. Only a real saiyan knows how to use the saiyan cells properly..He would fail terribly..it would be like a captain ginyu situation actually.

[@pablitorogel14]

@@Pauliyd466Gaming You guys do know what the ultimatrix does. It scans aliens and then simulates the perfect form of the species DNA through war like conditions for a million years. Saiyans don't need to be trained to use ki. And like I said, saiyans have shown to be able to transform under moderate stress, war like conditions would be more than enough to bring out ssj2.

[@richardwalker2881]

Objection, one has to wonder if Gwen would actually be a more powerful user of the omni matrix, this is all because of one thing: magic, all this stems from Cthulhu himself stating that when possessing her "Ah, the second most powerful race ever: anodite" plus, from TV tropes, anodite is actually an std, which means that it can be passed on to other species, possibly enhancing some species, again them more op, like with atomix (have you seen both sol badguy, justice and dizzy at full power) and alien X (why hello there op magic users in the comics as well as goddess Madoka and sailor Saturn)

[@driveasandwich6734]

Yeah it is very much canon that Gwen would be a better OmniMatrix-wielder than Ben in almost every way.

[@linkfan6555]

The whole “Goku’s training is special so ultimate saiyan wouldn’t be able to surpass him” argument kinda falls flat with the existence of dragon ball super broly.

[@themastersofcomedy9277]

No because broly is different if you watched the movie so it still stands

[@cowmous9204]

Do any of you guys know the background music?

[@fishnutz5196]

@@themastersofcomedy9277 correct. Broly has a genetic mutation that allows him to access the power of the great ape while in his base and ssj forms. Although that alone doesnt explain how he manages to compare to god ki but the point still stands that Broly is a 1 in a million kind of sayian

[@jordantinucci3509]

Brolys a legendary ssj... he's also an oddity like kale so no it really doesn't

[@cowmous9204]

@Itz Puddle thanks bro!

[@tendaiball5598]

Honestly Universe 6 saiyans are probably the “ultimate saiyan” Edit: i don’t feel like responding to all the comments, here is my response kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWnRgomceLCNf7M

[@hotrodthe1]

I mean some of them literally use pocket knives for weapons so I don’t know about that

[@Aesirfollower224]

No

[@sebz8362]

They're doodoo butter

[@shawnsouth327]

Absolutely not

[@christiancinnabars1402]

They better get to becoming ultimate then, because right now they're not too impressive.

[@Warlord-dc5un]

The ultimate saiyan would just be the equivalent to cabba as cabba has no god ki nor knowledge of obtaining ssj but was able to compete with vegeta in base form (that had god ki) in the U6vsU7 tournament. At best is ssj3 like Seth along with many others agree on however that is still a maybe as goku had training with gods aka the kais and a dead body to achieve said form so goku had a certain training regiment along with other factors. The alien forms also affect the behaviour of ben so ben would most likely be a bloodthirsty, beastly warrior so it's gonna be the same as Rath.

[@ZuuFo]

Seth the computer program

[@balrogdemorgoth4741]

That '1 million year battlefield' is basically just how saiyans already lived so I don't see what it would change. If anything, it's a bit of peace that would have made saiyans stronger going by Cabba.

[@christiantepepa5614]

Someone really said UI isn’t god ki when it was confirmed in the manga that it is

[@bernardoliveira7672]

Someone really using the Manga when the Anime is vastly different.

[@IllegalJelly]

Bernard Oliveira ok but its hinted to be the god ki in the anime

[@jocoolshow]

@@IllegalJelly Its never been hinted to be god ki in the anime Literally everyone is able to sense UI Goku and the 'form' is more of a technique than anything else for everyone that's not Goku

[@christiantepepa5614]

Jo-Smooth even if it wasn’t hinted that it was god ki they never said anything about sensing his energy they only mentioned the heat he emitted while in the state

[@OmegaTheMyth]

@@jocoolshow My guy everyone and their mother comments how strong Blue Goku is half the time you really think the anime is consistent with who can and can't sense god ki??

[@FumanyuX]

Imagine Ben using a *green haired* Super Sayan. The Legendary Super Sayan is speculated to be some kind of mutation by King Vegeta himself, then, wouldn't the omnitrix be capable of producing the "perfect" sayan with similar kind of power? or at least with the ULTIMATE feature. Like, Broly, who is now canon, only trained with ANIMALS on Vampa, and AT BASE he was capable of handling VEGETA, then with his Ozary boost, WIPED THE FLOOR WITH SUPER SAYAN GOD GOKU. *AND THEN WHEN HE FINALLY TURNED SUPER SAYAN HE SMASHED BOTH SSB ASSES* like, that's an OP sayan prodigy, and the omnitrix could get to it, peak of the species, and the sayan special has shown to have IMMENSE potential, Freezer FEARED that. Freezer himself is a prodigy, he never trained until Resurrection F, so technically they have high potential in a sense that their unnamed race is born very strong, but sayans has shown they have a huge potential to improve (specially with the Senkais) ASWELL as an smaller, legendary chance of be BORN RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED, every 1000 years and that yarayara. Broly probably is that, his Super Sayan state is superior (unless you assume those sayans from the other Universe are identical to the regular sayans, then you could say it to be the "Super Sayan Berserk" transformation the one with green hair, but of the regular universe)

[@MakaveliTv35]

I believe UI is a transformation but only in the case Of Goku

[@na5567]

Yo that Ben 10 Saiyan edit is something I did like 5 years ago! Lemme get my actually good art in there willingly.

[@GetRightBray]

Well t omnitrix turns Ben into a prime version of whatever species so like his potential would be greater than or equal to goku

[@GetRightBray]

Actually you could easily argue Ben ten would slap goku because his potential would be greater than or equal to broly who showed that he could reach goku levels of power in short amounts of time especially if goku fight how he does commonly and allows Ben to power up

[@SRVaris]

@@GetRightBray Broly wasn't really a "normal" saiyan he is more of a mutant

[@GetRightBray]

Hokage Varis well u can’t really make that argument it’s kinda head canon as far as the movie showed he was just a saiyan with insane potential

[@GetRightBray]

We should like this a lot and try to get Seth to respond to this because genuinely I wanna hear what he’d say

[@GetRightBray]

And eve if you did want to make that argument it’s still within saiyan ability and he would turn into the prime version of that. Matter of fact with the function that puts the saiyan through the evolution process he wouldn’t even need goku to go easy on him

[@yungkiing1718]

10:03 Yes, I do believe it’s a transformation in Goku’s case but for whis and the rest of the angels it’s something that they are trying to teach to their gods of destruction

[@alienstar2088]

Though I can't agree that the answer as to why Ben could beat Goku with a Saiyan Transformation is Ultra Instinct, I can agree that Ben can defeat Goku with normal Saiyan DNA. The Omnitrix automatically changes the sample DNA into the best it possibly can be meaning that Ben will have the most physically adapt transformations when compared to that transformation's species. The only thing that held Ben back in the past against other aliens he had already acquired was technique. When Ben transforms he instantly gains the instincts of the aliens however, unless he uses them on a regular basis, he lacks the ability to maneuver properly within a transformation compared to an alien counterpart. Because of this feature and assuming that Broly is not a subspecies of Saiyan, Ben would have Saiyan DNA akin to Broly as Broly is naturally at peek performance in terms of Saiyans. There is nothing about Broly that theoretically can not be used by other Saiyans, at least judging how little we know about Saiyan biology. Not to mention that we can't make the excuse of saying "Goku has techniques and Ben doesn't" because Broly didn't have fighting techniques either and it still required a fusion in SSJSS to beat him in normal SSJ. But like Seth said, this debate has been over for a long time and there is real no need to bring it up again. Hopefully this will be the last we hear of it.

[@AliceIsSleepy]

Alien Star I mean... Broly is specified to have a mutation. He's a mutant, kinda like Freeza, so he is a "subspecies"

[@Cameron-qe7il]

@@AliceIsSleepy But considering its an evolution of the species over a million years, it could again produce a mutation like brolys or one that is even stronger.

[@willyates8071]

Goku and Vegeta are the peak of the Saiyan race. Broly is a genetic outlier. He did have basic combat training btw. Ben doesn’t automatically gain the instinct of the aliens he transforms into, he has to learn them first unless he’s already seen what they can do.

[@willyates8071]

Kingdrago101 They literally only lose to Alien X, who Ben refuses to use. Aside from him, Goku and Vegeta wipe Ben 10 you’re joking bud

[@GVGINU]

I think the writer of this article/blog forgot one thing...Ultra Instinct isn't the natural progression of a Saiyan. And Goku had to be trained to learn how to use it and that came along with God Ki...since Whis also called UI the power of the Gods. That was a huge leap to assume that Ben would just get it.

[@djwards472]

Toriyama came up with s-cells. So you could argue that ben would have every transformation because the omnitrix would provide him with the maximum amount. So training wouldn’t really be a factor.

[@jordantinucci3509]

It isn't just s cells that are needed, Ben would need the training and emotional drive to unlock just ssj

[@djwards472]

watching To Much teamfourstar Debatable. Universe 6 saiyans needed back tingling. Goku mentioned that it was something like that as well.

[@jordantinucci3509]

@@djwards472 why would Ben know about that? U6 siayans aren't the same as u7 saiyans

[@djwards472]

watching To Much teamfourstar ok then trunks and goten. Explain them lmao. Ben doesnt have to know it. The omnitrix would spend 1 million years progressing their genetics. You think after a million years it wouldn’t realize how to tingle its back? Nice nerf lol. Ben only scans the race while the omnitrix does the rest.The transformation would probably be more akin to broly because from what we’ve seen its the strongest “form” like ability the saiyans have and the omnitrix becomes the perfect version of their race. P.S. i honestly disagree with the u6 saiyans being so different from the u7 saiyans because cabba was able to transform from rage too so its odd to say only the tingly back is different.

[@averagesky8549]

@@djwards472 S cells dont unlock god forms, so it doesnt matter lol

[@awolscopes8790]

Argues there you need something special special to transform when Gotanks and trunk go ss1 cuz it’s Tuesday and they are bored.

[@zeuxconors2185]

I mean broly is a legendary sayian and a result a genetic disorder or something like that. And he was whooping on goku and vegeta without god ki so I can see bens sayian Beijing that strong

[@willyates8071]

Ben’s Saiyan wouldn’t be as strong as Goku, Vegeta, or Broly. They are genetic outliers. His Saiyan would either be like the Saiyan saga levels of Goku and Vegeta or like Goten and Trunks power level. Goku and Vegeta are only as strong as they are because of training, which wouldn’t be encoded into their DNA. Put simply, even if he scanned Goku, the Saiyan form he gets will not be as strong as Goku

[@zeuxconors2185]

Will Yates the ultimate feature gets the most out of the species by simulating like a million years in an apocalyptic environment aka constant battle for sayian and being in near death situation very frequently. So I still think the sayian would stomp goku and vegeta.

[@adonisrobbins_nonis]

It would only make sense if was both a transformation and not one. Only because it’s a technique/state of mind it wouldn’t be a transformation. But because of the strength multiplier and the change of hair color it functions like a transformation

[@HC-gm4fo]

If Broly is any indicator of an Ulimate sayian it could be a good fight

[@reallyhimongod]

I mean he is the Saiyan of Legend so maybe

[@Gully2k]

Swagg Surfer if a legendary super Saitama in born once every thousand years then in theory (my own theory, so I may be wrong lol) The omnitrix or the ultimatrix puts aliens in battle field for 1 to 3 million years to make them evolve, think about how every thousand years he becomes and absorbs the power of a legendary saiyain and it would stack

[@drnebulae7578]

Ultra Instinct Defined: For a Mortal = Transformation. For a Deity = Technique. Evidential Factor - Ki Type. Mortals regulate God Ki. Deities have God Ki naturally. That's as simple as I can state it. Plus this is my interpretation of Ultra Instinct, so if someone differs...I'm not really that bothered. I just go by the anime and manga. My one main point to prove this theory if it's a theory in the first place is this. Whis and Goku. Whis uses UI as natural as breathing when fighting Goku and Vegeta. Goku uses it as a power-up for his senses and instincts, therefore gains a new look.

[@gabrielallen6827]

Broly didn't need to go super saiyan 3 to surpass Goku. And he is the ultimate version of a Saiyan

[@emperorsunnyshore9272]

Broly already had training and lived in a planet full of planet destroying creatures. Ben would just turn into a saiyan that was born today, and instantly turned into a adult. 1 million years of evolution will get you the best potential, but you wouldn’t have the best knowledge or physical capabilities without any training.

[@Lh0000]

Actually no, broly is t actually an ultimate saiyan, he’s a mutant offshoot of the saiyan, the omnitrex doesn’t actually have all the mutated versions by default (hell originally it wouldn’t even let Ben become a mutant at all) he would have to scan broly himself to get a broly-type saiyan. Another example would be the mutants from X-men, Ben couldn’t just scan some random dude off the street and become professor X, he’d have to scan a telepath specifically to actually get that type of ability.

[@otaku-il7cw]

@@emperorsunnyshore9272 lol omnitrix gives you all the fighting technique of the alien so ben always know how to use it

[@Odinfang]

Ben 10 and Goku crossover would be a fun sparring match to witness if only to see what an ultimate saiyan would look like and Goku witnessing the potential his race can achieve.

[@britishjack9931]

the ultimate funtion is forced evolution not training big difference

[@bbqseitan7106]

For Non-Angels, it is something that must be attained, in other words a transformation. It’s a state of being for the Angels, but for mortals they must ascend to it, or transform

[@tyrellturner5602]

This hypothetical saiyan form sounds very interesting. The concept of Evolving Saiyan DNA by replicating the mutations of 1 million years of fight. But it brings up some questions 1) Is this a scenario where a Saiyan gets the equivalent training boost of fighting for 1,000,000 years? Or 2)Is it a scenario where your seeing how the saiyan's would evolve over the course of 1,000,000 years if they were constantly fighting in an apocalyptic world? Because if this is scenario 1 then that could have the potential to be REALLY OP!!! Imagine a Saiyan with 1,000,000 years of Zen Kai's. Not to mention the combat experiance and training boosts they would gain in that time frame. And these increases in strength would of course be more noticeable as you start staking SSJ multipliers on top of it. Also despite the statement that SSJ3 is the pinnacle of a Saiyan's potential I find it hard to believe that given 1,000,000 years a Saiyan wouldn't be able to achieve a higher transformation. If the Omnitrix functions like this then I wouldn't be surprised if this hypothetical ultimate Saiyan has the power to mach or even surpass Goku However if the Omnitrix functions like it does in scenario 2 Its unquantifiable how powerful this hypothetical Saiyan would be because we have not the slightest idea how the Saiyan race would evolve given these circumstances. And since we don't know if things like Zen Kai's and SSJ can be passed down through genetics it makes it even harder to guess how strong this hypothetical ultimate saiyan would be.

[@555squad]

I just want to clear this up first, the Omnitrix can't do the evolution feature. Only the Ultramatrix, a temporary knock off omnitrix given to ben, had this ability. With that out of the way, the Ultramatrix works exactly like how you described in scenario 2. All of ben's "ultimate forms" go through actual evolutionary changes with the pretense that they are put through 1 millions years worth of evolution if they, as a species, where forced to fight every second of those years. Thats the reason why all the ultimate forms are physically different as well, and tend to strengthen some abilities while weakening, or even forgoing others. Prime examples, Ultimate Echo-Echo turns regular Echo-Echo's ability to hover into an ability to fly, his sonic abilities skyrocket in power (from city block level to planet + according to a old ben 10 scaling video), but he loses the ability to duplicate himself, while also become much larger (from about 2-3 feet to ~6.5ft). Ultimate Humungasaur, in a similar vein, loses his ability to alter his size from regular humungasaur while gaining increased strength, durability, a spiked tail, and the ability to turn his hands into bio-mechanical missile launchers. Thought I would put this knowledge and examples out there, feel free to do what you want with this information.

[@tyrellturner5602]

Sposin Thank you that was actually VERY helpful. I’m not very familiar with Ben 10 lore/scaling so you’ve definitely cleared up some questions

[@555squad]

@@tyrellturner5602 no problem :)

[@bigapple9510]

@@555squad Actually, I think that it works on both ways. Ultimate Humungousaur did say that his mom tried to eat him when he was still an egg, and the ultimates did try to kill Ben for making them go through the evolutionary process, which I don't think they would do if they were just born the way they are.

[@thaddusbone2077]

I always thought that the "Ultimate Sayain" would be an Akari Sayain or LSSJ ( Since Broly is the genetically strongest Sayain) as a base. So when Ben goes ultimate he gets an Ultimate Broly with 10,000,000 years of Zenkai's and possibly SSj 3. I don't know if Goku could deal with that. Especially if we take the Super Broly movie into account.

[@fxd4163]

He couldn’t scan Broly and if he did he couldn’t adapt by the time Broly crushed him

[@thaddusbone2077]

@@fxd4163 He wouldn't need to scan Broly. The Omnitrix makes the DNA of a scanned alien the prime of its race. Even if the alien scanned is not the prime of the race itself. (The two greatest examples of this being Kicken hawk and Bullfrag who look like evolved forms of there species without the ultimate feature btw)

[@thaddusbone2077]

Actually you where right 😂 he would have to scan Broly to get that transformation the Ultamatrix makes a copy of the alien scanned and not the prime example like the other Omnitrix.

[@aurelionsolph]

Omnitrix copies only base form goku as an alien saiyajin.. You can't access transformations like SSJ1 to SSJGSSJ if you cannot control ki.. or you don't know how ki works.. KI COMES FROM THE SOUL not in the body! As ben10.. Is a human he doesn't know how ki works.. Onmitrix only copies base common aliens.. That doesn't have ki You need to learn ki Training before you can access transformations.. So BEN 10 omnitrix is useless 🤣

[@bulixsfnm3659]

Big facts

[@Vanderhike]

but there is the ultamatrix

[@SneakyBeaky1]

The later versions of the omnitrix will get a DNA sample of an alien and turn Ben into a prime example of the species (most likely DBS Broly) and will give Ben the knowledge and base instincts on how to use the alien’s abilities (Ki Control).

[@aurelionsolph]

@ and transforming and ki control is hard for a human to control.. Even in the DBZ saga.. You cant manipulate ki if you dont learn to control ki.. Dumbass all saiyan learns how to use ki manipulation.. From start up until now.. When you transform there is certain level of ki power and emotional ki triggers to go SSJ OR Kaiken or pull stuff like ki blast.. All dbz characters even normal saiyans goes from that

[@aurelionsolph]

@.. As for ben he cannot access ki in the body if he dont learn to ki control manipulation.. Even you cant fly as a saiyan if your dont use ki.. Dumb ass.. WATCH dragon ball kid goku to DRAGON BALL Z saiyan saga.. To frieza celk buu arc.. And db super.. Ben can only access a normal ki.. And doesn't have any KI BLAST OR FLYING because as a human KI LEARNING manipulation before you can ACCESS POWER.. 🤣😂 Ben transform into a goku with power level of 10 hahahaha.. Garbage power level 😂🤣 How can he win 🤣🤣🤣

[@pizzavictory113]

A intro in Xenoverse 2 Basically sums up how I feel about this argument. Gogeta SSJ: When your wide open You get hurt it doesn’t matter how strong you are. Even if Ben is stronger in Ultimate saiyan. He could leave himself Wide open Or get cocky (Which lets be honest is part of his character) Then he would lose the fight especially Against Opponents Like A bloodlusted Vegeta Or Beerus. Hell goku In SSGSS got Severely Injured By A laser gun Because he wasn’t paying attention.

[@lilfingertoe6213]

His stream background always make me laugh my ass off

[@bestman3960]

I think ultra instinct is a state of mind but when that state of mind come into contact with saiyan biology a saiyans body transforms to keep up with the state

[@justinjohnson3666]

And besides the pure saiyan form (think broly) another thing that’s not factored in is the saiyan tail and all of its potential power and the natural power up it provides....a million years between the two in the harshest environment let’s not forget the zenkai boost... I’m a huge dragon ball fan but because I’m a fan I know this isn’t as clear cut as people make it out to be

[@Lh0000]

Actually no, zenkai boosts are a none issue since Ben isn’t actually being brought to the cusp of death for a million years the omnitrex is just simulating how a species would evolve to survive in an extremely harsh environment given a million years time. So no Ben doesn’t get a billion zenkai boosts. Though yeah it’s not exactly a black and white “goku rofl stomps lol” though I’d still place my money on goku 6.5/ten high dif

[@bigapple9510]

@@Lh0000 No, Ben himself may not be, but the transformation definitely is. Cue Ultmate Humungousaur's statement "My mother tried to eat me when I was still an egg" Or why the Ultimate Aliens tried to kill Ben because he and Albeado essential tortured them. If they were only a byproduct of their entire species being forced into constant war, then they wouldn't act like they themselves experienced the millions of years.

[@Lh0000]

@Big Apple That humongosaur like actually kinda proves my point, it’s simulating there evolution, it’s not doom guy fighting the armies of hell by himself, it’s doomguy’s family line if he started a family in hell. In all likelyhood the ultimate aliens were just plucked from the end of the million years, while the species simulation continued for a million years, the ultimate aliens themselves only experienced there lifetime at the end of those million years....

[@udonnauchegbu2018]

Since the Omnitrix creates the apex of a species, I think a reasonable realm of power for a Saiyan tranformation without God Ki would be Cabba the during U7 vs U6 arc. Cabba was on par with a Vegeta who has already surpassed a SSG Goku that can clash with Beerus with the universe being under threat of destruction. Considering that the only difference between both universe Saiyans is their tails, they should be genetically the same. Meaning that Ben should have a base Saiyan that is Universal Level +.

[@WaveOfDestiny]

Seth you mentioned doom guy land, trust me you do not want to attract doom fanboys they are worse than master chief fanboys, i've heard arguments that could rival flat earthers

[@coreyrheams9123]

That is very scary

[@dezkightz]

As a doom fanboy...can confirm...there are some real idiots over here

[@milesandrews6711]

What do they have some universal shit?

[@WaveOfDestiny]

@@milesandrews6711 worse

[@milesandrews6711]

@@WaveOfDestiny damn, do they really have the outerversal shit like I've heard coz I thought that was just a rumor about doom fanboys

[@ajr01-x6e]

I think that Ultra Instinct is a form and a technique. Its a form for Goku, and perhaps any Saiyan due to their biology, but for Angels it is a technique and probably most races that are Destroyers. The technique itself might not require God Ki, but the form Goku takes seems to have God Ki. Vegeta basically confirms it when Pybara says he can't sense Goku's ki, Vegeta responds by saying its probably because he's using Ultra Instinct and that he naturally can't sense such godly ki. Edit: Some evidence to support that the Ultra Instinct we see Goku use as unique to Saiyans could be the fact Whis didn't recognize it right away. I'm not an expert, I only watched the anime ToP, but Whis initially didn't seem to know what he was looking at when Goku transformed. But when he was able to evade Jiren, Whis realized Goku must've been using Ultra Instinct. I think if everyone who used Ultra Instinct gained that aura that Goku had, Whis would probably know right away what Goku was doing.

[@albu8620]

No body can debate Seth since now he’s named an expert 😤

[@nearmart7208]

Ultra Instinct for Goku is literally a transformation which AS A RESULT allowed him to reach the state of mind required for dodging the moves, hence why he gets stronger when using it. The strain from getting beaten hard and getting a Spirit Bomb thrown on him while he was at his lowest made him transform, and the state of mind came as a consequence of his transformation, much like many of the Saiyan race's transformations. They're a pretty reactive race, gonna tell ya.

[@tlcsons2125]

Seth pin this if deku destroys all of fiction

[@justinjohnson3666]

What about the pure saiyan form....like Broly....why wouldn’t Ben 10 have access to that?? A million years training in pure saiyan form

[@TheMasterBlaze]

The dude who wrote that page/article does realize the ultimatrix was destroyed, right?

[@kingrollypollyvii5565]

You do realize that Goku can't activate UI at will, right?

[@TheMasterBlaze]

@@kingrollypollyvii5565 Yes, I am aware. I watched the tournament of power, but I feel more qualified to talk about Ben. Like that means anything, but still.

[@redinfinitygamer8811]

@@kingrollypollyvii5565 But now in manga he has UI Omen at will

[@doggo5239]

I always considered ui a transformation becuase 1. His eyes change 2. Hair spikes up 3. He radiates heat 4. After it wears off his body starts yo get surrounded but purple and black lightning. Of course to even access it you have to have a state of mind, which is why it can be called a technique to at the same time.

[@Lh0000]

I mean, I think it depends on who uses it, like beerus and whis use it as a technique, but goku and presumably any other saiyan who achieves it, use it as a transformation.

[@tinyrobot6813]

I mean kioken is a technique but joke still changes in appearance that's really common in anime it's a good visual way to show that this is different then other thing

[@kick3n3mini]

Alien X has presented way better casual durability feats than Goku. For example, Goku with guard lowered = laser can hurt him. Alien X with guard lowered tanks the universe being destroyed. Even Ben without Alien X tanked a big bang. His final villain in omniverse was a 4D being with multiversal level time hax and survived the big bang being blasted at him. Ben also met 5D beings and some beings on an even higher dimensional tiering that see the omnitrix as a toy. Goku has universal+ or low-multiversal attack potency at best, while Alien X at bare minimum is universal+ due to him needing more than universal levels of energy to recreate the universe, which he did casually. The art style changes happen due to Alien X's race who exist beyond space and time and it affected all universes, not just one. Even a 4D character like Prof Paradox threatened infinite timelines if his power was unleashed.

[@Monbeasto]

Seth I need your opinion. Toph vs Azula. I keep seeing everyone say Azula but I happen to think toph. Toph has better defense and attack potency. They both share mastery and are both prodigies. Also they both are patient when it comes to bending. I dont think one character could overwhelm the other , but I do see why someone may say azula can overwhelm thoughts.

[@vasilipanagiotopoulos1139]

Seth, if saiyan transformations and ultra instinct are genetic, ben would be able to unlock them since the omnitrix is using samples of goku's DNA, IDK thats just my thought after watching the video.

[@marlonfarias.]

In my opinion Ultimate sayian would probably be something like ss4 but is just headcanon

[@Raven_The_Unkind]

Ultra Instinct is definitely a Transformation but its Not a Saiyan Transformation so Ben wouldn't have access to Ultra Instinct just like he would get the God Transformations. He would only have access to the Super Saiyan Forms

[@jarrodkent716]

Ok. So I agree that the boost isn't really definable. But could the zenkai boosts he'd receive over 1,000,000 years of surviving an apocalyptic event that his previous self couldn't. How strong could that Saiyan's base get, regardless of transformations? Is it reasonable that it could get to a point where he could still bang with Goku? And if transformations matter , where would ultimate Saiyan Ben fall off? I think I'm like a year late, and maybe there's a more recent video going even more in depth on one of the channels, but I am curious about these things now.😅

[@kanga2468]

There's a few reasons why Ben 10 would beat Goku and it doesn't include Ultra Instinct or any sort of saiyan transformation however. The whole Ultimate Saiyan results is based off speculation. No one knows what saiyans would look like with a million years to adapt to apocalypse-like ecosystem. With the new information we have now thanks to DBS Broly, we can have a more accurate guess. Take Planet Vampa as our "apocalypse climate" Broly has been on planet Vampa for roughly 42 years (since Goku passed by the planet 5 years after he and Paragus arrived). You could low ball it and say he's the same age as Goku, but that's still only 37 years in the harsh climate. We can already see that Broly was able to stomp God Goku and Vegeta in his base form after the ToP arc. It wasn't until they went blue for Broly to need base super saiyan to handle them. In the end it took a blue fusion of both Vegeta and Goku to take down Full Power Broly. Keep in mind, this is only after 37 years (minimum) on an apocalyptic planet as a saiyan that was born on Planet Vegeta (And after Paragus cut Broly's tail due to not being able to control him in Great Ape form). Now imagine a saiyan adapting to that climate for million years. You don't need God Ki, nor Ultra Instinct. All you need to do is take what makes Saiyans the strongest warrior race in the universe and amplify it. Saiyans are able to use something called a Zenkai Boost in order to get stronger after a near death experience. We see that Broly got stronger the longer he fought. We see Goku Black do the same thing. Now scale that up. Also, with the evolutionary advantages, he'd most likely still have a tail. If we want to bring GT into this, this could mean that although he may not reach SSJ3, he can still reach SSJ4 (Like Vegeta). The biggest difference between SSJ3 and SSJ4 is that there is very little to know power loss to maintain the transformation, which is why SSJ4 is superior and you see Goku use it more than he uses SSJ3 in GT. But even if you don't use GT, Ben 10's Ultimate Saiyan would still be leagues above Goku in base and only get stronger as the fight drags on.

[@jet6660]

This is how I see it, normal saiyan ben would basically be a perfect potential saiyan, but he wouldn't naturally have super saiyan. he would still need to train and ether have some one show it to him or have something push it out of him. When he eventually gets super Saiyan, his perfect potential would make him a legendary super saiyan. Once Ben got LSSJ he would most likely not gain any other forms because he wouldnt be challenged enough to need them unless he had to fight Alien X's race and they would be to strong for him survive a fight at that point. i doubt Ben would reach Goku's level because of the fact he only has a saiyan body in short bursts and none would be able to train him. Now Saiyan X is a nother story. After a million years of evolution under constant war Ben's body would be constantly be in near death states, giving him constant Zenkais. Each generation would get exponentially stronger, making it easier to unlock the Saiyan forms. Eventually it would get to the point where ben would constantly be in LSSJ and if it become easier to unlock Super Saiyan each generation (the trunks and goten S-cells thing) i think it would get to the point where one saiyan would be born with LSSJ as its base. I think that would keep happening withe the next levels of Super sayain till it hit its peak, Legendary Super Saiyan 4. That would be Ultimate Saiyan Ben's base.

[@kingrippzard2027]

Ok from what I understand wouldn't the ultimate Saiyan just be really buffed up base? Kinda like Broly. Unless during those million years the Omnitrix simulated that somehow every Saiyan is now a super Saiyan or at least has the ability to do so it wouldn't make sense. People forget this isn't one Saiyan training for a million years. This is the Saiyan species evolving for a million years. And let's say you have a Broly level fighter at the end of this. What would they do against UI Goku? The manga established Goku can just use UI now. So unless he's using alien x I don't see how Ben wins personally.

[@jessieomahony8101]

Just a question but if transformations actually change your form then wouldnt god form have a different type of DNA? I'm not arguing one side or the other I'm just saying wouldnt Ben be able to copy his god form. Seriously not looking to debate. Just asking a hypothetical

[@Lh0000]

I don’t think so... I’m not sure either way, but I’m fairly certain the gods aren’t actually “born” and thus there powers wouldn’t actually be linked to there genes, as an aside alien X is part of a full on species, so they do actually reproduce naturally, so that could explain why the omnitrex can actually get alien X despite it being a reality warping god.

[@slumpgod1459]

I personally think for a saiyan to use ultra instinct it has to be used somewhat as a transformation but at the same time I feel like goku only achieved it is cause of his training with roshi and also on kami's lookout where he was trained to clear his mind in a fight. The omnitrix brings out the full potential of an alien and while transformed you have the knowledge on how to use all of that aliens abilities so most ben could do is go ssj3. With that said Goku has trained how to fight his whole life while ben on the other hand hasn't trained anywhere near as long as goku so even if ben can go ssj3 he would definitely lose in a fight against goku. One example is the fight between goku and caulifla, she was transformed and still barely able to keep up with a base for goku.