shadow philosphy

[@johnh2118]

It is always amazing to me that people who think this way are the comfortable, well-dressed beneficiaries of conflict instead of the blood-soaked, battle weary soldiers that inevitably pay the price for this philosophy.

[@SantomPh]

And they are all white.

[@thijsjong]

@@SantomPh So there was imperial Japan. The Mayas. The Aztecs. The warring tribes of the great plains. The Arab conquests. The Mamaluks. The Mongols. The Turks. The Zulus.. The Bantus etc.etc. There have always been cultures of different races subjegating other races and cultures. Sometimes killing whole cities enslaving them. It goes back to the stone age. All over the world. All races. It is just that the industrial revolution gave the white peoples a cutting edge over the others. Better cannons and muskets. And in the seond half of the 19th century steam engines. Africa was colonised after the invention of medicine that gave Europeans resitance to tropical diseases. It is a dirty game and Europeans were just better at it for 150 years. That time might come to pass. Maybe China will become the n1 superpower and American cultural influence will wane. But we never know. Over 50 years another superpower might be in charge that will neither be China or the U.S.A. that we did not even see coming. There is a cultural virus going around in the U.S.A. it is guilt and blame and it lead to nothing constructive ans just eats the nation up from the in side. It is like the country is commiting cultural suicide. Not my problem. Just an observation.

[@jonreese7066]

@@SantomPh not all. Africans were sold to Europeans in Africa by fellow Africans. Imperial Japan did it to Chinese, Koreans Look up Ghengis Khan Its not a white thing its a human thing.

[@patryn36]

Violence is the currency of life, without it there would be no life beyond a few microbes maybe. Humans are the only ones to whine about it when they are on the losing end of it.

[@SiwakSerg]

@@SantomPh It amuses me, how little one has to know to spit out such allegations. Were the Egyptian white? They were northern Africans, as they still are, and they enslaved Jew. "Let my people go" was about this particular part of human history. By the way, black people were set free almost at the same period of time when a very large group of WHITE(!!!!) slaves were promised this kind of freedom, got it officially but never obtained it truly. This led them to the Civil War and the subsequent victory over monarchism - this is how communism started in Russia.

[@Johnston212]

This just made me think of something that I wouldn't have thought of before. Rules 34 & 35 of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition: War is good for business. Peace is good for business. Even Ferengi, in the own messed up ways, understood the benefits of balance.

[@Brownshoe24]

Eilerson: "Nations rise and fall. Planets live and die. But corporations go on, through good times and bad, because it's all about profit." - Crusade (Racing the Night) - J. Michael Straczynski

[@zchen27]

There is no evolution if war is so constant that people can't risk change. Nor will there be evolution if the war goes so out of hand that everyone collapses back to the stone age. Chaos provides the impetus for progress. Stability gives the chance for progress to take place. Continual chaos will simply knock everyone further and further back down the ladder.

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

I wouldn't say balance so much as opportunism (which the Ferengi consider a prime virtue).

[@TimoRutanen]

The conclusion from those two rules is that status quo is bad for business.

[@haakonstenseth]

Shut up Quark 😁

[@IanPeon]

Just when Sheridan thought he couldn't possibly be more at odds with these beings, he heard them speak.

[@davesworld7961]

As an insect race the shadows in their pre tech age probably had to eat their siblings to survive the hard times.

[@Aivottaja]

The Vorlons were insectoids as well probably. Their energy forms insinuate as much.

[@patrickstivers7387]

@@Aivottaja I don't know how you figured that. The Vorlons obviously evolved from some kind of aquatic life similar to cephalopods based on what Ulkesh looked like outside of his suit. In fact, I imagine that they looked like the Thirdspace Alien before they ascended. Which make you wonder if the Thirdspace Aliens weren't just alternate reality Vorlons that went a different way.

[@chrism7395]

@@patrickstivers7387 agreed, the Vorlon ships are also quite cuttlefish-like. I'd find it quite funny if Deuce (the crime boss who used a Nakaleen Feeder disguised as a Vorlon) was inadvertently on the money with the true appearance of a Vorlon (my headcanon is that Vorlons and Nakaleen are evolutionary relatives like us and other primates)

[@etorres4u]

@@Aivottaja the Vorlon’s actual true appearance was more like an octopus. But as a psychic species they hid their true appearance to make them more like “divine” beings of the particular species they were interacting with. In many ways they were manipulative a-holes who never gave straight answers. The Shadows were bad, but Vorlons were just as bad.

[@Aivottaja]

@@etorres4u Exactly. Neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows were good. The younger races were just pawns for them to prove their own ideology's superiority.

[@matthewlloyd3255]

Of the two older races - I would suggest the Shadows were the more honest about their reasons for doing what they're doing. Justin and Mordin's explanation is quite truthful to what the Shadows had been trying to do for millenia. Whereas the Vorlons never truly explained themselves or their philosophy to their followers - the Minbari, despite presenting themselves as "the good guys" through their disguse as angelic beings.

[@TheCmac1966]

This is actually true. When Sheridan’s wife tries to convince him, she is honest. “I am not that person, but I could grow to love you. “ She could have easily manipulated him and lied. She didn’t. As reprehensible as survival of the fittest might seem, they were honest about it.

[@haakonstenseth]

Who is Mordin? His name is Morden not Mordin 😁

[@rocketsjudoka]

The Vorlons goal was order and they saw their role as providing direction to the younger species through order. That also meant manipulating them. The central conflict of B5 was Chaos represented by the Shadows with Order represented by the Vorlons. Ultimately both sides were rejected by the younger races.

[@jacobwiren8142]

It's simply a byproduct of their respective philosophies. The Vorlons know WHO they are. They know it so strongly that they have to wear protection so that others' thoughts don't "contaminate" them. They know it so strongly that they don't understand what they want anymore. When Vorlons help people, it isn't because they "want" to help people. They do it because that's "who they are". They are the kind of people who help others preserve themselves. They are also the kind of people who violently retaliate against anyone who harms them, as we see later. This is all consistent with their beliefs, and is also the reason why they are enigmatic. To share yourself with another means allowing the other to change you. The Vorlons cannot allow that, because the "self" is sacred to them. The Shadows are the opposite. They know what they WANT. They know it so strongly that they have become illusory and invisible. All the better to avoid interference even from each other. They know it so strongly that they don't understand who they are anymore, and that they have become monstrous. "Desire" is sacred to them, and the "self" is something to be discarded. This is why they are invisible, why they use proxies for their capital ships, why they do not grandstand or play politics... and also why they are honest with Sheridan. They are sharing their desire with him in order to change him, and THEY SUCCEED in doing so. Sheridan is never the same after this encounter, and his decisions ultimately allow the Shadows to get EXACTLY what they want. They and the Vorlons depart the galaxy together, reunited with the First One, and Sheridan makes this possible. Sheridan also makes the decisions that lead to the destruction of the Centauri, which G'Kar requested. Everyone who spoke with Morden got exactly what they asked for: Lando saw the Centauri great again, G'Kar saw them ruined, Delenn saw Morden leave, Vir saw Morden die. The Shadows are a force of desire itself, and by their power desire is made real.

[@cepson]

"After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said - in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." - Harry Lime *Note: Harry Lime was the bad guy.

[@seanwieland9763]

💯💯💯

[@stormthrush37]

Sooner after this, Sheridan would share his own philosophy with them: gunpoint.

[@Coolman13355]

More like when in doubt use a nuke.

[@gregdeandrea1450]

NUKE point, actually

[@eryian]

@@gregdeandrea1450 yeah, Sheridan's answer, bomb Z'Ha'Dum with several nuclear missiles.

[@scottgodfrey7118]

No, more than that. He used their philosophy against them. If they truly believe in conflict having two of their cities nuked out of existence should, by their logic have made them stronger and better, so he was doing them a favour. Unless they don't believe what they preach.

[@MDE_never_dies]

So…..Conflict

[@thanishmathew1738]

Mr. Morden is a great villain

[@Bazookatone1]

He's got just the most punchable face, honestly, if he hadn't become the Shadowns agent, he would have been a great used car salesman or something. He's just so greasy.

[@shadow-js2hn]

@@Bazookatone1 shadows are richier than Eath trade companies alltogether.😁

[@TheKnightOfSmite]

@@Bazookatone1 Ironically the actor himself was a salesman lol

[@paulstone3590]

I always liked him when watching B5 as a kid. So he did his job well as a bad guy. I never bothered learning his name and what else he did in his acting career. Watching some clips today it dawned no me he is Italian. When watching these Scifi shows people focus on the show and not ethnicities. So that's a good thing. Something all people can get around.

[@mikeclemens795]

"Knocking over an anthill". That's downright chilling. Shows what they think of "lower life forms".

[@jmlaw8888]

One thing this series truly surprised me with is how elegantly it shifted from "the evil big bad has returned to threaten the galaxy" to the revelation that the younger races were being used. Used not even in a war but rather in a debate or a game of chess. Dont think Ive ever seen a sci-fi series address the imbalance between ancient and new species quite as well as B5 did it.

[@wallisparnell4464]

Lol….Therese people are lower life….lol

[@SonnyBubba]

While the Vorlons recruit Jack the Ripper to see who’s ready to fight the upcoming war.

[@hazardousjazzgasm129]

It mimics the conversation G'kar had with Catherine in season 1. That comparing the creature in Sigma 957 to humans is like comparing humans to ants

[@clairestark9024]

The ultimate issue is there effort is pointless, struggle occurs naturally, if anything they're too destructive so deny the chance to grow. For example they fast tracked the centari narn war to the point it was ultimately detrimental to both factions.

[@Aivottaja]

Exactly. Wars happen without the Shadows anyway.

[@ArconisDeusEX]

Yes but , they were trying to help the younger race grow to where they are. It took the first Races millions and millions of years to get to where they were. They wanted to make the youngers race get there faster. And this was their tool. Because its how they got there.

[@marianpazdzioch6632]

Except when race like Vorlons get involved and stop natural conflicts.

[@Aivottaja]

@@marianpazdzioch6632 That's why they were both told to get the hell out of the galaxy.

[@Tuberuser187]

@@ArconisDeusEX I don't think either the Vorlons or Shadows actually cared for the original goals, they might claim they did but it just seemed they where too busy just trying to prove each other wrong.

[@EpicNinjaShiro]

It's funny how the Vorlons were the logical group that suppressed their emotions and resulted in them getting out of control, while the shadows were emotional to the point they carried things out to "their logical conclusion". The first delays instant gratification for long term benefit while the second is all about instant gratification at the cost of long term benefit (like it being unfortunate that races were lost along the way), with instant being relative as they are long lived races.

[@crylittlesister6377]

Almost like Gen X vs Millenials 😄

[@AkhshamiKsyAksKhaos]

@@crylittlesister6377 ...if only it was so...simple... Bit by bit...generation after generation...eroding away the possibility...for decent beings... To what end?.. 😈...

[@Ryooken]

It's always about Yin and Yang both sides of the same coin.

[@dominicjohnson307]

The Vorlons and Shadows represent 2 sides of the same coin. They lost their way because they forgot that everything needed balance.

[@Ryooken]

@@dominicjohnson307 I think they lost their way not because of balance but because they didn't listen to Lorien and let the younger races find their own way.

[@Intrafacial86]

The primary problem with the Shadow philosophy is that they go out of their way to _create_ constant, unnatural conflict. If conflict is unending, when can you ever hope to write sonnets, much less enjoy them? If conflict is unnatural, are you truly made stronger, or are you just better at playing some made-up game?

[@Perplexum]

It's not constant, only every few thousand years. Most of the time they lie dormant and don't do anything at all, to let the younger races breathe and and grow from the previous conflict.

[@chrisbingley]

You should read some of the poems written in the trenches of WWI. Even when fighting on the front lines, there is still time for poetry.

[@ant4812]

A good example of what happens when you have unending conflict - compare the level of artistry & craftsmanship of Scandinavian Migration Era/Vendel Era armour, weapons & jewellery with what was being made 200-300 years later in the Viking Era. The later stuff is crude by comparison. They'd gone backwards. Meanwhile in 8-9th Century Anglo-Saxon Britain, where there had been relative peace in the intervening centuries, they had a rich culture and probably the finest goldsmiths in all of Europe.

[@Vektab]

If you can’t write and enjoy a sonnet in 1,000 years or so, then it was never meant to be.

[@brianwhedon8442]

The Shadow Wars were originally 10,000 years apart. It had been that way for 100+ million years. The Vorlons creating telepaths violated Lorien's agreement and that started a 10,000 year arms race (telepaths vs technomages) that was to end in the Shadow War of 1000 years ago (also referred to as Valen's War). The Shadows were on the verge of winning again (with the Vorlons cheating) so the Vorlons brought in Valen and B4. The Great War of 2260 was just the continuation of the Great War of the mid 1243-1260

[@HoobriBoobri]

conflicts between humanity are needed only for whos who wants power over us! In every conflict there are to sides - one for slaves who fights and masters who provokes masses of people. But sad truth is that we must fight against people who wants to devaste and enslave us. And it is allways a victory of part of this rullers...

[@Moneor]

Justin: your kindly, social Darwinist grandpa

[@Aivottaja]

Mark Twain meets Charles Darwin.

[@cavok84]

Lol!

[@jmlaw8888]

Not really Dawinist. Darwin never dabbled in ideals of "conflict breeding strength". In fact his theory as often as not could show evolutionary success for the exact opposite. Say for example a non-aggressive organism that simply breeds too fast. Doesnt matter if its a prey animal, if its reproductive capabilities outstrip predation by other animals its succeeded in evolutionary terms. Or a creature that develops effective evading abilities. Strength and power have very little to do with Darwinian evolution.

[@hazardousjazzgasm129]

@@jmlaw8888 Darwinism =/= social darwinism

[@jmlaw8888]

@@hazardousjazzgasm129 Then its just social. Theres absolutely no need for the Darwinist part.

[@EternalDarknessAboveTheBlueSky]

No matter how many ant hills you kick over, they will never be able to be strong enough to withstand your kick. Any belief otherwise is just to excuse your need to kick over an anthill. You can't get stronger when you're dead. Being lucky enough to avoid a bomb or laser does not make you stronger. The ones that die make you weaker. Any thing said otherwise is an excuse to kill.

[@demiserofd]

That's not necessarily true. Eventually they might evolve into fire ants, and then they can keep you further away from the hill. Or maybe they move the anthill entirely underground, protected from your feet. Or they dig into solid rock, resistant to your efforts. You've gotta remember that long ago, humans were just small furry primates in the trees, unable to stop anything. Now we've conquered the planet.

[@lorigulfnoldor2162]

Not only that; there's also the fact that if ants ever evolve to the point that your kicks are not a threat to them, then they're in a direct competiton for survival against you; and, due to your efforts, they spent their "youth" as a race hardening themselves against adversity; and now YOU are this adversity for THEM, while THEY are "beloved students" for YOU... and suddenly you realise that you did not think this through, lol. So either you destroy them in the process of training; or you destroy them when they are a threat to you and your efforts go to waste; or you have grown your own very dangerous enemy. In any case, there's very little sense to do that. Except out of religious duty, yes, religious duty.... maybe they are simply fanatics?

[@paulstone3590]

Wrong analogy. Termites do build better structures when they are knocked down. And war is a catalyst for innovation and growth. But it also destroys many people who could have made significant advances to their race. I suppose a balance is needed.

[@LordTalax]

Was it the Minbari that said war doesn't prove who's right just who's left?

[@user-kq1hf5sv2l]

@@paulstone3590 And war is a catalyst for innovation and growth/ such a myth bullshit

[@crazedvole]

Funny thing about the shadows is all they had to do was sit back and do nothing and there would be plenty of conflict and *evolution*

[@jasonbourneistreadstone]

That's the thing: The show's creators even reference this in the opening monologue for the series: "last, best hope for peace". It's not like the other races weren't fighting all the time already. Everyone was fighting already!! It wasn't all sunshine and roses.. Peace and Love.

[@chadwickerman]

It probably wasn't enough for their vision. With the way things were, there were border wars, conflicts, squabbling, etc. but they would eventually be settled in courts, in the league of non aligned worlds, the B5 advisory council, et al. The Shadows wanted species fighting for their existence, desperate, being forced to grow, evolve, change, or be wiped out. They wanted species turning their entire collective will to surviving and killing their enemies off completely, only to come out much stronger generations down the line. They wanted the forest of sick and diseased old trees to be burned down so the seedlings could grow up stronger and better. Just a few conflicts here and there wasn't pushing their agenda.

[@Matej_Sojka]

@@chadwickerman A new forrest will not grow up if you go in with a flamethrower every time a green leaf appears.

[@desa415]

I grew up in Silicon Valley. The fantastic technology that came out of it was for business, medical research, communications, education, space exploration, and oh yes, the military. But mainly for the betterment of humankind. And it was relatively peaceful for the US between 1975-1990; the height of the Computer Revolution.

[@sunnchilde]

This is way too chopped up. This scene is gold. You are tearing up gold. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[@Cenindo]

Interesting profile picture you have.

[@casbot71]

If anyone finds a copy that isn't edited, can you post a link here?

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Jeff Corey - the actor who plays Justin - had a long history playing genre roles. My personal favorite was in the "OBIT" episode of "The Outer Limits."

[@Janovus]

Also Plasus from Star Trek “ The Cloud Minders.”

[@kevinjasper6620]

True to a point. Without struggle, strife and discord a society will stagnat , and then die. There would be no reason to get better, to improve, to change. The question to be asked... Who gave them, whoever it may be, the right to decide for all the others. If you are self-appointed, then you are in error. It is not for you to shape and remold the future. Each must find within it's collective self the desire and the way to grow, change and improve. Now I know, this will lead to a very few superior races, while the rest of the cosmos drifts along is merry way. These few races then must be mindful not to interfere with the less developed worlds. This method is a more equal method to achieve ( the shadows) goal.

[@sanstx3987]

What a bullshit. There is another way, look what did John Fitzgerald Kennedy in the human history. Only the weak choose the war and suffering way because they fear the existens.

[@CrniWuk]

@@sanstx3987 It's a philosophy. Not one I necessarily support, but one nonetheless. It touches on Social Darwinism and conflict as source for invention. Survival of the fittest and so on. Again I am not a support of it but I think I have to make a defending case in the context of the movie. The Shadows are opposed to the Vorlons. Where the shadows prefer chaos the Vorlons look out for order. The shadows ask, what do you want? The Vorlons ask who are you? They are races with a history of 100.000 of years. I don't think one can apply a simple human minded perspective to their logic. Consider this. Imagine a human being was immortal and existed for thousands of years. What would be his outlook on life? Would he follow the same principles as most other people do? Probably not. Same if we would be talking about a human with immense power where he could do things no other human can do, like a sort of Superman. So it's not so much about who's right or wrong but the perspective. You do have some races in the show that supported the Shadows voluntarily after all. And in their mind their success proves them right. They are one of the higher races that managed to ascend trough this logic. Just like the Vorlons did with their way. In the End Sheridan finds a whole new way for him and the galaxy anyway where they decide to do it on their own without the Vorlons or Shadows. It's really good written science fiction.

[@amramjose]

Tell that to the millions displaced from Syria, Yemen...

[@Aivottaja]

Life itself is a struggle.

[@user-kq1hf5sv2l]

Go and die in struggles- all of you only can blabla from you comforts environments. Demagogues all you are

[@mattwho81]

Ultimately the Shadows were not wrong, but then neither were the Vorlons. Both sides had their position on how to advance the Younger races but the problem wasn't who was right and who wrong. The problem was both sides decided their way was the only way, they couldn't accept that there were other points of view. Their bi-partisan feud was the problem, not their philosophys.

[@y0uCantHandle]

Yes. Now get the hell out of our galaxy

[@Daktangle]

Mr Morden(sp?) exemplifies that. He completely brushes over how many of humanities accomplishments came from co-operation and unity, and not strife and conflict.

[@sword4005]

vorlon saying truth is a three edge sword your side their side and the truth

[@Hiraghm]

no, what was wrong was deciding they had the right to advance the younger _species_ .

[@Willaev]

@@Daktangle Few of humanity’s accomplishments came from unity and cooperation.

[@MrThemortgage]

Mr. Morden is creepy! Great acting...

[@sumanadasawijayapala5372]

Yeah, he wasn't the best person to try to convince Sheridan.

[@sneaksyranger]

Laura Ingalls Wilder had it rough after the prairie, I gather.

[@alicemi4155]

Unfortunately there always comes a time when you have to leave "the prairie" behind and face the wide world. Which is always older and meaner than you, child.

[@sneaksyranger]

@@alicemi4155 I'm going to hope that I am just missing a different joke instead of your trying to get snarky on a reference to Melissa Gilbert (the redhead) used to play Laura Ingalls Wilder when she was a child.

[@reelsoffortuneslotsplay4267]

George R.R. Martin of Game of Thrones wrote a great piece called "The Sand Kings" where this philosophy is demonstrated in it's most horrible glory

[@F40PH-2CAT]

Social Darwinism. It's most insidious aspect is that there's a grain of truth to it.

[@freewilliam93]

Should upload the whole scene....

[@Punnery]

I wonder if the people stuck in long-running conflict zones like DR Congo, Syria or Yemen feel like they're coming out stronger, with their economies in tatters and an incalculable human toll. Granted that progress (however you care to define that very usefully nebulous term) sometimes involves what some call "creative destruction" as new things supplant old things. Organizing wholesale destruction and unhappiness in the hope that somehow some kind of "progress" will emerge seems profoundly irresponsible. JMS seems to be implying a moral equivalency between the Shadows' approach and the Vorlons', but I don't think such an equivalency really works in the real world--it seems to put medical missions on the same moral plane as demagogues and rabble-rousers.

[@mmouse1886]

There's a pretty wide berth between the Civil Wars in intentionally flimsily put up post-colonial Governments and things like the Second and First World Wars. Inventing and mass issuing the radio throughout the planet and Splitting the Atom and using it for power in the sense of Strength of Arms and the kind that keeps your lights on.

[@user-kq1hf5sv2l]

@@mmouse1886 It was not because of conflicts

[@tompearce5418]

The Shadow philosophy was intended to be seen as monstrous. Realistically if the Shadows believed in healthy competition they could just as easily have opened a trade fair or an Interstellar Olympics.

[@rangodeldiablo]

What the shadows fail to realize is that the strength that they idolize comes at a terrible cost. Continuous, unending war and conflict may make people stronger, but if it keeps going without time for people to rest and consolidated what they have and are fighting for, they lose everything that they are. Their culture, ideas, technology, even their our identity will be destroyed. That is where order comes in, it allows beings to rest, recover, and take time to remember who they are, where they come from, and what they are doing.

[@kmarasin]

aka the answer to the question "who are you?" as opposed to fighting for the answer to the question "what do you want?"

[@mossing234]

The drell green vs purple conflict shows they do take that into account

[@brianwhedon8442]

The Shadow Wars took place every 10k years or so. The last Shadow War was interrupted by the arrival of B4 and Valen. That's why the Shadows and Vorlons were preparing for an end-all 1000 years later

[@spionsilver9626]

@@mossing234 drazi :)

[@Aivottaja]

It's not like races need help in finding conflict with each other.

[@McRocket]

Shadow Philosophy: when your life is empty? Why not play a gigantic game with your nemesis (the Vorlons)? Using billions of inferior beings in a galactic experiment to prove that your way is better. Neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows did what they did for the good of the galaxy. They did it to entertain themselves...at the expense of billions of sentient beings. A gigantic pastime called 'Playing God'. ☮

[@lapidus9552]

"Release our potential nuts" Story of my life.

[@craig8399]

Vorlons and shadows are debating philosophy in these comments

[@raven4k998]

evolution will be served one way or another

[@veleriphon]

Who are you? What do you want?

[@raven4k998]

@@veleriphon Who are you? What do you want?

[@veleriphon]

@Raven4k Exactly.

[@raven4k998]

@@veleriphon you didn't answer the question lol

[@tompearce5418]

I wonder if Morden was thinking of this speech when the Centauri ripped his head off.

[@tsm688]

he'd been ready to die for a long time. really, he'd already died.

[@PatraGR]

The voice of Justin sounds the same as the intro voice of the English dub "Fist of the North star" anime movie

[@OrbGoblin]

Lol holy crap, that is an amazing observation.

[@razorburn645]

Damn now I'm picturing what B5 would look like in that style. It would be glorious.

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

I good question for the shadows is who was that knocked your ant hill.

[@valensigmund1957]

He speak the truth, evolution will be served, one way or another.

[@razak4494]

This is a very interesting point of view. The Shadows are correct. A lot of things we enjoy today are the result of war and conflict. Not just technologies but our freedoms. Most wars result in advancements in technology and strategy. The United States is a good example. Every war makes us better, stronger, smarter.

[@ethenallen1388]

Sheridan was building an alliance that would make all of the races stronger, and the Shadows were trying to destroy it because it threatened their dominance over the younger races.

[@ethenallen1388]

@Nihulistic99th The danger with that ideology is that it can lead to a people thinking that they not only have the right but the obligation to exterminate so called lesser races, something that really has happened on Earth at least once that I know of and probably inspired the creatures the Vorlon encountered in Third Space. Conflict can be useful, but it needs to be applied in moderation. A good example was when Garibaldi took over Edgar Industry. He brought in people with attitudes to help him shake things up, but made it clear that he was still the boss and would hold them accountable for their mistakes. "if you're right, you'll get a bonus. If you're wrong, I will have you for lunch." The problem with the Shadows is that, like the Vorlons, they had lost any sense of moderation they had one had. Kosh gave his life to help the Younger Races twice because he was looking beyond himself to consider their needs. The reaction of "Anna Sheridan" when she saw that White Star crashing down makes me think that she was far less willing to make a sacrifice than demand one from others, and it was because her masters no longer cared about helping the Younger Races grow, it was just an excuse to fight a proxy war with the Vorlons, and the Vorlons were just as bad. That was why Lorean and the other First Ones joined the Younger Races in calling out the Vorlons and Shadows. It was no longer a case of one side being right and the other wrong. It no longer mattered who had broken trust first. It had to end, and the Shadows did not want that any more than the Vorlons so they tried to destroy the alliance Sheridan was building.

[@mostlymessingabout]

... and a few people a lot richer... on the mountain of millions of dead non-Americans

[@AnonEyeMouse]

If that were true, how come your society is so broken and suffering? Healthcare, crime, political corruption, predatory law enforcement... Who gets the benefit of a parasitic philosophy? Not the host. Making war means you make war better. sometimes those technologies leak out. That isn't unique to conflict. When Germany and Japan lost in WWII BOTH were forced to agree to curtail any military investment. They essentially were limited to a homeguard style military with no expeditionary power. Instead, they became industrial and electronic powerhouses, dominating production for decades to come. Even today, German Engineering and Japanese Electronics are world leaders. Advancement comes where you put your focus and your rewards. Imagine what rewards could come if the focus was on removing hardship and woes and pursuing peace and understanding of both ourselves and the world around us? The C.E.R.N. particle accelerator was one such focus on knowledge. Modern computing was driven by games, not warfare. The desire for better graphics and smarter world simulations. The real driver is the thirst for more. It doesn't matter if it is conflict, knowledge, money, glory, food, comfort etc... it is the focus on getting more X and better X that keeps advancement going forward.

[@ethenallen1388]

@@AnonEyeMouse chaos run amok.

[@fredfredburger5150]

Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

[@FlyguyDePanam]

"Get the hell out of our galaxy" is the right answer to me !

[@DeathclawJedi]

Mr. Morden's actor was in the Pilot episode as a completely different person. I always thought it was a shame they didn't write in trope of the Evil Twin. Dude had the chops for it. He could have been a background guy that pushed to the front and the Baddie at the same time.

[@TheJSpiegel]

“Order versus Chaos. Choose one.”

[@richtea615]

The Shadow philosophy is basically describing nature and natural order.

[@dongilleo9743]

Except by getting involved, they are making it unnatural. They're not just promoting growth and evolution; they're forcing it, and picking winners and losers. Left to their own fates, the various races in Babylon 5 would evolve in time in their own ways. The Shadows are pushing them to evolve in one direction; the one way they think is important.

[@hazardousjazzgasm129]

No it's not, it's the same misinterpretation many social darwinists make of darwinian evolution

[@Robert_Douglass]

The greatest flaw in their logic is that with or without physical conflict, there would still be sonnets, science, exploration. This is not a result of the strongest killing off the ones who are not fit to survive -- evolution sorts that out rather well without our help. It is those who can think around the need for combativeness who record the sonnets, the equations, the locations of and paths to new worlds. All conflict arises from the selfish need for control, to deny others what you wish for yourself. Does anyone think it was a battle-hardened veteran of past wars that painted the Mona Lisa, that developed the General and Special Theory of Relativity? Was it a soldier that developed the mathematical formulae that showed us that time was a function of gravity, and that gravity was a function of mass? Those things were achieved without war.

[@tompearce5418]

War promotes technological innovation - but so did the Moon race.

[@tsm688]

@@tompearce5418 the moon race was basically a war with less death. the GDP of entire nations burned to accomplish technological miracles.

[@ethenallen1388]

500 years after the events in Babylon 5 there was a second Earth Civil War which plunged humanity into a dark age it took them thousands of years to climb out of. How does the Shadows' philosophy of survival of the most violent account for that?

[@ethenallen1388]

@ I don't know anything about that. The war I'm referring to was mentioned in the forth season episode "Dissembling of Stars" and was between a faction that wanted to annex systems belonging to other members of the Interstellar Alliance of Free Planets and the pro Alliance people and would have taken place sometime in the 2700's. As for a dark age caused by a "Drakh Plague," an earlier scene on "Dissembling of Stars" featured a very old Deleen putting some detractors of Sheridan in their place and would have happened in the 2300''s. There was no sign that Earth was in a dark age then.

[@brianwhedon8442]

All the other human worlds survived. Earth was "punished" and it rebuilt and returned to the stars. That's exactly what the Shadows wanted. They survived. They became better.

[@ethenallen1388]

@@brianwhedon8442 Just because one extreme is bad, it doesn't mean the opposite extreme is good. It was never a case of one side being right and the other wrong. It no longer mattered who broke trust first. "Helping the younger races" was just an excuse for the Shadows as well as the Vorlons. That's why the other First Ones had withdrawn until the younger races were ready to make their stand.

[@brianwhedon8442]

You asked how the Shadow philosophy applied with humanity. The Shadows saw great potential in humans and viewed them as their perfect servant race. In the same way the Vorlons manipulated the Minbari. The Shadow way was not specifically violence; it was evolution at all costs. Even 500 years after the Shadows had left, humanity was still proving itself to be their true heirs.

[@tonynelligan1930]

no ever said growth was painless, and recall kicking over the ant hill that was the civil war.it doesn't take a minute to fix what we damaged in 4 seconds.

[@cerseimystiquelaure9843]

Mr Mordern is Lord Littlefinger

[@cantinman6365]

The thing is, both sides have a valid point, they just both took their philosophy to the extreme.

[@cedo3333]

A philosophical moment in a SF tv show that was a great moment this one! And that's a true philosophical movement with backing evidence for this. The problem is you need to kill a lot to attain those progress. The shadows are Darwinist lool At their core that's what they say, even in an advanced civilization the right of the strongest and fittest is better than other. About the facts i was talking about, during the 2 WW, in the humanity history there was no other point of time during which the technological level increased that much. But is it moral, worth to kill billions for that? that's at the end the true question and i won't answer ^^

[@Whalewraith]

It would be great if they redid the CGI for this show.

[@Kirpich981]

В сериале заключается более глубокий смысл. Прежде всего столкновение идеологий. Это как две сверхдержавы, как например СССР и США во время холодной войны. И та и другая сторона применяли методы теней и ворлонцев. Пример северная Корея и южная, то есть сталкиваются в борьбе две идеологии. Южная Корея воюет с северной Кореей-это война, это психология теней. Но внутри этих двух стран на вершине власти преобладает психология ворлона, потому что это дисциплина, порядок и нормы правил согласных каждой идеологии. Поэтому можно сказать что тени и вороны очень хорошо дополняют друг друга и самое важное они зависят друг от друга. Сериал Вавилон 5 с очень глубоким смыслом.

[@Srindal4657]

There is one flaw in this reasoning. Evolution doesn't just come from conflict. It comes from raw experience and you can have experience in just about anything. The day someone decided to make a telescope and look through it into the sky was the day that man experienced the first of many experiences. There was no conflict in that. Just curiousity. Once you know everything culture stagnates. No more curiousity. Vorlons and the shadows miss the point. It's not about identity or conflict, it's about raw experience and where it will take us. The question should be "what have you experienced?"

[@benjaminjones2231]

Yet they're traumatized and suspicious of all the other people around them.

[@Ama-hi5kn]

I believe in the evolution theory. And I realize that for humanity to evolve there are sacrifices to be made. I can only sit by the wayside an spectate. And hope I made a difference.

[@daniels7907]

What's interesting about this is that we already see here (and it is explicitly stated later on in the series) that the Shadows (and the Vorlons) no longer really understand their own ideologies. Look at this place! Z'ha'dum, the home world of the partisans arguing for chaos and war. But this pre-Human, Lovecraftian nightmare city is extremely orderly! So are the Shadows themselves. Their plans are complex, multi-layered, and encompass innumerable details and people from entire species to individuals. They advocate conflict, but do not seem to practice it themselves. If anything, they appear to have a highly-structured society.

[@haakonstenseth]

Hello Shadows ☺ I am the new Q from Star Trek and you Shadows and the Vorlon and the first ones shall cease to exist hahaha 😁

[@bear8696]

he bought their argument so much he just had to give them a present. the gift of big explosion!

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I always thought it was kind of dumb. The Minbari are massively more advanced than humans and would have easily destroyed humans if not for the last minute surrender. That was due to technological (and possibly numerical) advantage, not due to having evolved somehow. Wherever you have one race substantially more advanced than its opponent, the opponent race will lose; not due to failure to evolve, but due to an insurmountable technological gap

[@Grahf0]

They may not just be referring to biological evolution. Technology and scientific understanding also "evolves" over time. Look at the atomic weapon, biological warfare, or even things like our understanding of cold-weather exposure, many of which either came after a war, or were brought about by increasing hostilities or war. Most of the efforts relating to the examples above ramped up in many nations during World War II, even if some of them were initially conceived 20 to 30 years prior. If you consider when the first Shadow War happens, it is at a time close to when the humans of Earth are having their crusades. You can see that Minbari ships in the flashback sequences or time travel sequences are different than what the Minbari use in the present day. The amount of time between then and the present, combined with their experience fighting the Shadows, had to have had some sort of evolutionary impact in terms of their technological advances. Tactics also advance, and military doctrine also advances when a country is leading up to wartime and beyond that. The Maginot line that France settled on was completely useless when defending against the invasion from Germany's attack near the beginning of World War II. I have read various sources that stated that the tanks France had at the start of the invasion were pretty good compared to the German tanks of the time, but the way France used them made all the difference. Combine that with the call for drawing down the military by many people and constituents in France, and they were doomed to fail in fighting off the Nazi advance from the outset. If any of this is garbled or just can't be understood, I apologize. I am drunk. 🥃

[@Jason987262]

True. If the technology gap had been a lot closer the outcome of the human minbari war would probably have been a stalmate negotiated peace. Technology was the only thing the Minabri had over Humanity.

[@Grahf0]

@@Jason987262 The Minbari also had thick skulled, boneheaded determination. Sorry. Drunk again.🥃

[@hobanagerik]

Vietnam.

[@crazedvole]

@@Grahf0 The irony of the Maginot line was it that it *did* work. The Germans knew they could not take it head on. So they went around it. It forced them to go through a heavy forest, knowing that there was no guarantee that the tanks would be able to make it to the other side. The Germans had to take a chance on their invasion failing from the outset because the Maginot line did what it was supposed to do. Just not in the way France hoped it would.

[@SechsVerehrer3-qd9fu]

Her mimic at 0:09 …chilling

[@craig8399]

Personality I think the shadows philosophy is correct without conflict and chaos society and technology would stagnate. But what's the end goal? When does evolution end? When do you become the superior species? (if there is such a thing)

[@TomUK737]

I don't think there is an end goal, I think its like what O'Brien says in 1984 - power is not a means to an end, its an end in itself

[@tompearce5418]

Technically the winning race exterminates all others.

[@mostlymessingabout]

Is there a Vorlon philosophy video? Need that for perspective

[@Aivottaja]

Watch the scene where Delenn and Sheridan, respectively, talk to the Shadows and Vorlons. The Vorlons basically tell Sheridan: "We know what's best for you. Why resist us? You will do as we say or die if we demand so". So yeah, they were no better than the Shadows.

[@brianwhedon8442]

"There is only order and obedience."

[@etorres4u]

The problem with the shadows was that they used used war as an end and that would bring endless suffering and death. They did not understand that people are not ants and on an individual level people did not want to suffer or even the possibility of death and would instinctively see them as an enemy. They should have been more subtle in their approach to conflict. The Vorlons on the other hand represented an almost autocratic option in which whole species were forced into conformity to create a stale “peace”. They were just as bad as the shadows.

[@tsm688]

what did the vorlons actually do in most cycles? aside from plant a few telepaths, and give stuff to the minbari, the list is very, very thin. until they go off the rails of course

[@etorres4u]

@@tsm688 the Vorlons represented the opposite of the shadow's chaos. They believed in a stagnant "order" with no space for growth. They worked behind the scenes to prevent any species from gaining the upper hand over another, to the extent of suppressing any species that became too powerful. This is also why they stubbornly refused to give useful information when asked. They did favor the Minbari, but only as an instrument to further their own needs as they still refused them crucial technology and information until it was absolutely necessary or they had no choice.

[@tsm688]

@@etorres4u and they did this by doing what ... anything?

[@etorres4u]

@@tsm688 the vorlons manipulated the younger species without their realizing it. They also genetically modified many species in order to create telepaths as weapons against the shadows. While not obvious, Vorlons were just as bad as the shadows as they desired “order” at all costs. To them “order” meant everyone should do as they were told. The shadows were war and death due to chaos while the Vorlons were were “peace and order” at the cost of stagnation and collectively living a meaningless existence in a galaxy that never changes.

[@dadab22]

A flaw in the shadow's philosophy is that evolution only happens through conflict. It's a common mistake, that evolution is something that happens in responce to something. However, that's not how evolution works at all. It's not a machine that starts and stops. It's constant, always happening, and never moving in a singluar, linear direction. Mutation is, afterall, random. Most importantly, evolution results in adapting to the current enviroment. By upsetting peacetimes, to intentionally manufacture conflict where it would otherwise not occur, that isn't actually promoting specialised evolutionary traits. If anything, it's actually disrupting and hindering evolution. You remove one "weaker" species, and the entire ecosystem can collapse. If the shadow actually understood evolution in practice, rather than it in theory, then they would know that the best way to encourage evolution is to do nothing.

[@CRAZYUNCLE117]

The fucked up things, they're right. Proof? Look at the technological advancements made from the beginning of WW1 to the end. The introduction of hundreds of advancements, to include wireless communications and aircraft evolution. Even more is the advancement of airpower after WW2, where propeller driven aircraft became absolute in four short years. However, I can't abide by the insane loss of life that came out of the conflict. Most of which was a side effect of the conflict, not the conflict itself, and even happened long after. Sort of a butterfly effect.

[@eamonnca1]

The guest actors were very hit-and-miss on this show

[@TishaHayes]

See, the shadows had the right idea!

[@alicemi4155]

They had no idea whatsoever, otherwise they would have gained eternal bliss a long time ago. But they were as clueless as anybody else. And ugly.

[@gh5902]

It’s almost like the shadows knew bout those races the vorlan super gate contacted

[@hydewhyte4364]

Say what you like .... they're not wrong.

[@EdwardTCBlake]

Gone to the stars, split the atom, written sonnets. 🤦‍♂️

[@James-hs3tu]

So they like to start fights. Like a school BULLY

[@The_Gallowglass]

I mean, they're right. Conflict makes us stronger. So does cooperation. Complacency and stagnation are death. How many people want to read a book or watch a tv show or movie in which there is no drama? No conflict? There are no adventures without conflict. We're all a bunch of miserable domestic sheep teetering around mediocrity.

[@mobulis]

Your overlooking the middle ground, competition.

[@ThexBorg]

Except the people in the room advocating war and blood are never the ones to fight and die.... and the Shadows are the puppet masters 🙂

[@5tarasm]

Shadows' idea sounds like social darwinism. I hate that theory as I see that the rich people gathered all the resources and make most of the population suffer from poverty and hopelessness. Lots of talented young people have few chances to get better life without available education, medicine.

[@censorshipsucks9493]

Hey look, it's that guy.

[@timrobinson513]

Arrh! Evolution doesn't work that way!!!!! Create chaos life adapts to chaos, create order life adapts to order.

[@cyrusol]

Order ain't eternal. Everything inevitably drifts towards chaos.

[@magua9563]

Vorlons are the nurture kinda guys who are very willing to be up the nature Shadows.

[@stevengardner3192]

ok these guy are nut cases

[@Matej_Sojka]

Problem is they do not know when to stop. How long they did this? How many races survived them? They have few client races like Drakh, but every older race is few in number and hiding from them. Minbari survived last war, but they would not survive next cycle. They remembered too much. Same problem with Vorlons, any deviation from their intended order of things is dangerous for the race involved. There is no accident in the fact that Minbari have a cast system and obedience is required.

[@tompearce5418]

Also the Minbari were a deeply conservative race who frowned on dissent and preferred isolation to interaction.

[@seanwieland9763]

After all, it’s not that awful. You know what the fellow said - in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

[@AbuMaia01]

But did they have Michaelangelo, da Vinci, and the Renaissance, BECAUSE of warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed? Or in spite of it?

[@haakonstenseth]

Excuse me I got a warning that one of my comments was removed for violating the rules on KZbin, but I add a link from a website contains only about Babylon 5 and is that a crime?

[@johnpauljones9310]

The Shadows are Darwinians.

[@orius03]

Something tells me that Justin likes omelets.

[@Nonsensei436]

"Some are lost along the way". Yeah and then there's the ones the Shadows exterminate, like the Markab. Hey Shadows, how are the Markab supposed to evolve when faced with a disease that is 100% contagious and 100% fatal?

[@tsm688]

cultural change should have saved them. still a shitty thing to do.

[@TomUK737]

I dont think it was ever implied that the Shadows killed the Markab - the Dratha plague could have been native to their world

[@Nonsensei436]

With the shadows active in the galaxy, an ancient plague suddenly resurfaces without explanation? Just the knowledge that the shadows are out there manipulating the younger races is implication enough.

[@MuscleboySV]

The fatal flaw with the Shadow philosophy, from what I'm seeing, is that they think evolution NEEDS a servant.

[@luangu]

Darwin approves.

[@TangomanX2008]

I wonder to what extent did Nienuhr's Christian Realism influence the lore of Babylon 5?

[@debravalreyes2033]

Devide and conquer

[@haakonstenseth]

Ed Wasser (Morden) are you quite sure what you are saying about The Shadows? 😁

[@robwalsh9843]

What do you want? vs. Who are you?

[@puncherdavis9727]

I think this is what the democratic party thinks like. In fact I am pretty dam sure of it. Ain't their a song called inch by inch?

[@Hammerhead137]

So why haven't we pulled a Za'ha'dum on them yet?

[@tsm688]

have you ever tried asking a democrat what they think, instead of telling them what they think?

[@gregstewart5081]

Its the sonnets

[@sarashellsing]

who ever wrote this scene never studied evolution then again the shadows lost their way long ago so that kind of makes sense

[@Janoha17]

The point was that both the Shadows and the Vorlons had gotten so caught up in fighting each other that not only did they fail as First Ones in guiding the younger species, they don't even understand why they're fighting anymore.

[@sparrowlt]

the problem is that the shadows did had a point.. unpleasant and morally wrong but a working point.. The Earth Alliance grew in power and achievments with its 3 main conflicts (Dilgar war, Minbari war and civil war) while the Centauri had lied dormant without conflicts that they reeceded until the second Narn war where they kicked back at power.. and the Minbari were the most powerfull but had been on a whole different level for centuries and had not moved much from there (as they were on the top).. same for the Narn who went from a small pacific relativy low tech culture to a large warring empire in the span of their planet ocupation due to fighting the Centauri

[@victorselve8349]

Well Evolution has nothing to do with this, it is a natural process independent of intelligent thought. This is philosophy. Wherever conflict increases the rate of progress in a society and if the pain and suffering resulting are worth it, that is philosophy. A difference of opinion. Evolution acts on those who fight, it acts on those that work together in perfect harmony without a shroud of conflict. It doesn't have a goal or a cause. It doesn't strive for progress or regress, it wouldn't even understand the concept.

[@dalethelander3781]

I'm pretty sure JMS has a handle on evolution.

[@Mark-xh8md]

You want to know the worst part? The Mr. Morden has a point: Nothing has driven human civilization forward, like the myriad of wars we've had. No, I don't support the Shadows!!! But one has to give credit where it's due.

[@dongilleo9743]

There a scene from some movie that I can't remember the title of, but it talks to this. The character goes on and on about all of the inventions and technology that have been invented and developed because of war. Then he mentions that Switzerland has been at peace for five hundred years, and suggests the only thing the swiss have invented was the cuckoo clock. But given the choice, many would chose to live in Switzerland. It's a peaceful, prosperous, safe place. They get the best of both worlds: all the inventions and technology available, and peace and tranquility.

[@Unit-3475]

OMG ! JUST LEAVE US ! ALONE !

[@drewx10]

Thanos, the Shadows, and Fascist went to the same school of philosophy.

[@cartoonking461]

Its just tv folks

[@Da40kOrks]

Broken window fallacy.

[@HarPlayer]

It was a game 2 them. The Vorlans n Shadow's. Also they want 2 try there new weapons they think it's up 2 them how Races Evolve !!!!!!!

[@robertjackson3552]

shadows war is good for business vorlons Peace is goo for business

[@cyrusol]

Ferengi rule of acquisition no. 34: war is good for business Ferengi rule of acquisition no. 35: peace is good for business Ferengi are clearly way ahead of Vorlons and Shadows.

[@francisshortjr]

Evolution 🙄

[@hawkstringfellow]

Hes right but its crazy todo it on a massive Galactica scale

[@HappyHands.]

I feel like the old guy used to sell pillows in a past life