Shaper Machine - Involute Gear Cutting

Can you cut involute gears on a metal shaper machine? This video will show the process and setup involved in cutting an involute spur gear with a simple straight sided cutting tool.
The process is applicable to both imperial and metric series involute spur gears. In theory, a simple process that cuts a perfect geometric shape, as apposed to involute cutters which are compromised to cover a range of gears.
/ geoffreycroker
/ geoffreycroker
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[@1D10CRACY]

"An easy failure, is the road to success...."... I like it!

[@wakeupgeoff]

Mate I love the journey you took me on. I was devastated seeing that last tooth! Cant wait for the next iteration.

[@willc5979]

Spoilers bro

[@forrestaddy9644]

The process of generating involute gear teeth involves a formed cutter representing a single tooth of a meshed rack translated in synchrony with the blank roll at the pitch diameter. The Fellowes gear shaper worked via this principle but used a rotating cutter, itself having a generated tooth profile. I'm quite sure many a machinist passed the time watching long cuts musing the problem of making generated gear teeth with simple apparatus. The magazine article you referenced illustrated the tight band method but some improvement could be made - specifically indexing. Instead of returning to a reference location to index the blank (setscrews may move the hub relative to the shaft when tightened), I suggest you re-arrange things on your arbor. Pin the pitch diameter drum (the part the wire attaches) to the gear you're using as an index reference. Allow the drum/index assembly to rotate on the mandrel. Mount a hub with a shot pin that engages the index tooth space and lock it to the mandrel. The procedure: cut a space, traverse back to the starting point, pull the shot pin, rotate the mandrel/blank/index one increment, re-engage the shot pin, cut the next space, etc. The wire has elasticity suggesting it's stretch may affect the cut profile at varying engagement. I recommend the shortest possible distance between wire attachments - or a ribbon in lieu of a wire cable - or both. And leave finish stock. A light final cut will be less affected by the wire's elasticity. I suggest you acquire a gear tooth caliper. The old school vernier gear tooth calipers are still to be found but are expensive - in the $300 to $800 range. Import digital gear tooth calipers, while (yuck!) imported, work quite well in my experience. Heres an Amazon link: www.amazon.com/Machine-DRO-ME-CAL-GEAR-25-Digital-Calipers/dp/B00DS9IGQA This tool, though expensive, will enable you to grind your tool to the desired tip width and cut the tooth to width at the pitch diameter - and they have many other uses. The alternative is measuring pinswhich are not only more accurate but metrologically definitive. However, some study and calculation is involved in the use of measuring pins. Drill shanks of equal size may be substituted for gear measuring pins. There are formula for calculating compensation to be used for non-standard gear tooth measuring pins. Consult the Van Keuren Catalog #36. It has more formula for calculating measuring pin data than you really need to know but I reference it for the readers who delight in arcana. Gear cutting is one of the most technical tasks for a machinist. Anyone can chomp out a gear looking thing that may or may not mesh with a mating gear. But if accurately cut gears are to be made, a certain amount of book study, vocabulary assimilation, and calculation will be necessary. The Diametral Pitch and Metric Module gear systems are highly evolved and standardized resulting in a cookbook simple method of calculating the manufacturing data necessary for gear cutting. My high school math teachers without exception made their topic cryptic, boring, and excruciating to me. I graduated hating mathematics yet a few years later in my apprentice training, I managed to understand and work the many formulas preliminary to gear manufacture. So, based on my example, the computational side of gear cutting is within the grasp of most anyone with a need willing to study. Your set-up demonstrated the principles and potential errors of involute cutting on a shaper perfectly.

[@peterfitzpatrick7032]

Nice post Forrest.. 😎👍☘🍺

[@NoelBarlau]

Having put far too much time into thinking about this type of setup, it always seemed like a mistake to me to ignore the diameter of the wire when making the pitch circle diameter blank. This blank would be theoretically "rolling" down the outer edge of the guide wire, which would make it necessary to take into account the thickness of the wire when turning the blank. Of course there are many other variables, as you said. But this is one variable I've not seen mentioned before.

[@gplusgplus2286]

Didn't understand shit but your authoritative writing probably makes the above 100% correct.

[@robertunderdunkterwilliger2290]

Seriously dude, this is video art, its above and beyond instruction on a very high level! And the humor is just awesome!

[@th3k1ngofchina]

Easily the most entertaining (and interesting) channel on KZbin. EASILY

[@PiefacePete46]

Geoffrey... having adopted your Myford ML7 series as my bible for my Super 7 "tidy-up", I finally needed to hook up the reversing drum-switch. At the end of that video was a link to this one, which I had somehow previously missed. It took me back many years, to sitting on a stool beside an inherited Acorn Tools shaper, which itself was on the floor because I had nothing strong enough to support it! I used it to make a Quick-change tool post for the Myford. I later swapped it for a Rodney-Myford milling attachment, which was a bit of a disappointment. Anyway, at 12:25 you produced "The Book"... I immediately turned to the bookshelf behind me, and sure enough, with its home-done protective vinyl cover was my long-departed Father's Thirteenth Edition from 1948! Memories... Thanks again.

[@EverettsWorkshop]

Rustinox shared this with me, and I'm glad he did! I had never heard of this method until he shared a copy of that Model Engineer article with me and sent me your link. I've been wanting to learn gear making and it would be even cooler to make them on my shaper, so thank you for sharing your experiences and results. Nothing was ever perfect in the first run, I learned a lot from what you shared here, thanks for doing that!

[@bearsrodshop7067]

what make is yours?? The Klopp 450 purchased Nov 25th 21, will be at our shop on Dec 4th,,,Going be watching all about shapers , and subscribing to others that own them (@@). Bear

[@kooldoozer]

How can 100 people give a thumbs down?? I am an engineer and a machinist and I learned a lot from this video. Thank you for making it.

[@cryoine7194]

they fell for the metric propaganda, notice the nice round number divisible by 10

[@joshward7896]

Did something like this back in '89.....I used a shaper and a dividing head with a 4 gear train. I was making a stub gear (3/4 pitch) The dividing head was a VanNorman with an input shaft that turned the 40 to 1 worm. It needed a spline shaft to slide through the generating gear train. I saw the pitch diameter problem right away.....good work on you anyway. Your production skills are among the best on KZbin.

[@jimc12]

Glad to see an update! Can't wait to see the rover complete.

[@renegademachineect.]

I've seen that tolerance stack up happen on a CNC indexer. They engineer rounded the degree on the on print. The indexer was a brand new replacement with a different style controller then the previous one. So we typed in the print degree and started running. It had roughly 100 2" long slots in it. After 2 hours of running and everything looking good I got the exact same result. It was not a good day. Great video.

[@volbla]

This is a commendable initiative. The people need to take back gear cutting!

[@tannerfriend7979]

I can't wait to see that Rover get done looking forward to the next part!

[@deanharris7149]

Haven’t seen the inventiveness and creativity since the classic, “This Old Tony” videos. I have to say, Bravo! Your answer is either a dividing head, or a rack and pinion set..

[@rebelba42]

11:54 This, the projects chosen and your authentic personality makes your channel top notch! Waiting for your next video is like waiting for a special present! Many thanks for sharing your great work with us!

[@jimsvideos7201]

I have no recollection of watching this the first time, but I'm glad I watched it a second time.

[@TBendez]

Really knocking it out the park with the editing Mr. Croker!

[@evren.builds]

Your sound design went from good to being awesome with this video. It brought a lot of joy in to my day. Thank you!

[@magnumpunch]

Instead of wire you can use a rack to run the indexing gear on. Rack fixed to the machine (with screws). You will index and rotate at the same time. I love your work and funny storytelling

[@arrindaley3714]

I was thinking the same thing, as long as you could adjust the height of the rack it shouldn't matter the size of the heat your cutting, just the number of teeth. So you could have a set of three same modulus gears and rack and be able to chance teeth counts. It should index better because it would be an average of the teeth it's using.

[@CraigsWorkshop]

Here's an idea. Make an adapter for the end of shaper ram, that drives a crank that turns a spindle. Cylindrical grind a standard tool taper on the inside. Then you have a milling machine. Now all you need is to follow the existing instructions for making gears on milling machines... Really though - beautiful video making, an absolute inspiration. As for the indexing problem. I think if you look for and tighten up the inaccuracies of "the contraption", you'll do ok. I think you're on the right track and I wouldn't change anything major in your setup - just debug what you have. There is almost zero side to side force so solid levers will not be better than (potentially stretchy) cable. Just debug the setup, find the source of the error, I think. Cheers, Craig

[@peterfitzpatrick7032]

I think yer right Craig... superglue ? 🙄😂😂😂😂 EVERYBODY knows araldite makes a proper keyway !! 😏 😎👍☘️

[@CraigsWorkshop]

@@peterfitzpatrick7032 :-)

[@BlackBeardProjects]

Ahah! I swear I was watching carefully but I wasn't understanding how the hell it would have worked. Only at 10:08 I started to get it. Lol. How smart! Epic video mate, love the edit.

[@GeoffreyCroker]

Cheers Black Beard!

[@scottcates]

When outvolute teeth are called for.

[@TheMetalButcher]

So... use a rack on the sample gear for both the indexing and the locomotion. Those wires are part of the issue. The shaft should have some ability to slide, so you can slide the shaft and sample gear out, rotate it one notch, then mesh back into the rack.

[@peterfitzpatrick7032]

That sounds like a plausible concept !! 😎👍☘️

[@cjc1216]

Great minds think alike sir, i just wrote something very similar and then found your comment lol. Hopefully he sees and gives it a go

[@DoktorHalloween]

Was checking to see if someone else had thought what I was thinking. You wrote it so much better than I would have.

[@ReiniGrauer]

This is exactly what I was going to post. You could even have the rack on a hinge, spring loaded on top of the spur gear. To advance, lift the rack, rotate the part, and drop it back down. As long as the rack is parallel to the table, your locomotion and indexing should work fine. This would also let you change out the spur gears you are duplicating without having to mess with other parameters besides the height of the hinge.

[@jgt9261]

The rack meshing with the index gear will work very well; however, to cut any gear you would always have to have an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, and the same DP as the rack. Indeed, with your present set-up you need an index gear with the same number of teeth as the gear to be cut, albeit that it can be any DP or module. I think slipping of the wire drive induced by the cutting process is the problem, combined with the accuracy of the diameter of the wheel being driven by the wire. Perhaps have a few more turns of the wire around the wheel, and an index mark on the wheel and wire to ensure that they returns to the same place after the completion of each tooth. The diameter of the wheel, and the thickness of the wire need careful consideration and accurate measurement and maybe some trial and error.

[@clfung2008]

I never know that such a simple cutting machine can do gear cutting like that ! It is really amazing ! Thanks for sharing and looking forward for your next upload !

[@gdeathrow]

So looking forward to watching this develop. Fantastic work Geoffrey!

[@orionfleming6783]

I subscribed as soon as I saw the shaper. It got way better after that, you sir are a legend

[@jwaseman8487]

I work in a gear shop in the US and gotta say very cool man. Hats off to you for a great video and commentary. Keep up the good work.

[@SamuQu]

Timing belt maybe?, that being said, I think you're an artist, I really loved the lathe shots, the lighting, everything is perfect. And the humour, man, I was laughing or grinning the entire time. I worked the shaper for a while at my job, truly an amazing machine, I'm eagerly waiting for mk2, and starting to crank my brainshaft into how I could build a fork of this project.

[@markjames4474]

I had no idea what u we’re talking about in most of the vid, but I enjoyed it immensely. I’m very jealous of your tools and skills. Thanks.

[@porcelainbidet]

I love seeing the old Elliott drill press being used, even if it's only for a few moments. That back gear speed makes me extremely jealous.

[@bloodreighn]

New Zealands very own metal machining Channel , GREAT!

[@JoaoManFerCardoso]

Nice to see content from you again! As always amazingly edited. Keep it up!

[@jeffreysmith9369]

This is my favourite video of yours! Especially the ref to the handbook.

[@Nikkeftw]

If I was a really good review writer, I would write a long review about how awesome this video is with all its eeriness and effects. BRILLIANT! Im not even a metal-worker of anysorts, engineer or anything else related to it. I just have a general understanding and interest in these kind of things. Never worked machines like this. But you had me entertained and soaking up the content 100% of the time. 10/10 !

[@PiefacePete46]

@Bottleflask : Be careful... Be very VERY careful! Unprotected exposure to this type of content can result in your induction as a fledgling engineer! Then again, as you posted your comment three years ago, you are probably a fully-fledged engineer by now anyway. Have you made any interesting projects lately? You most likely qualify for the wall poster that says "A weak ago I cudn't evun spel 'Injunear'... and now I are wun!" Geoffrey's video captivated me too! 😵‍💫

[@Nikkeftw]

@@PiefacePete46 Haha, wonderful response. My title today actually IS Project Engineer!! I do work with a lot of engineers, but Im afraid I got my title without going to school as an actual engineer. I went down a automation programming path, and do the same work as several types of engineers do, but not the kind we are looking at here. So contrary to my original comment, I am indeed related to engineers now :D My last home project was making a spinning disk as flat as possible for my 100kg whiskey-barrel-bucket full of dirt for a literal tree, which is in my living room. As no one can stop me when I have a bad idea, I will say that getting the bucket onto the spinning platform ALONE, with tree in it, when it was done, was probably more of an engineering feat than making the "contraption" itself. However, I did indeed succeed, and wife lady was pleasantly surprised when she returned home. And I had bruises up and down both arms, but I enjoyed creating and assembling!

[@PiefacePete46]

@@Nikkeftw : It's interesting the paths our lives take... my son, who is in his late forties, has worked as a Programmer/Analyst since he left school. He has worked at the same desk for all that time, yet he has worked for six employers, in name at least. He has had more job titles than I can follow, including a recent one with the word "Architect" in it... he has never touched a drafting table, scale rule, or CAD program in his life... go figure! 😜

[@janosnagyj.9540]

12:21 "Americanos nr. 1 defense against metric propaganda" I can't stop laughing :D :D Hilarious :D

[@steelcannibal]

Made me laugh out loud as well! Love it!

[@MatthewHolevinski]

sweet jesus me either, i need air

[@jhoeaying6165]

Hahhhaha. Love it dude..😂😂

[@tomdiedrich8794]

Enjoying the videos and your shift from your traditional content!

[@Preso58]

Great video. Entertaining as usual. I like your iterative approach to the design challenge. If only I had a shaper, or room for a shaper. But, since This Old Tony made it illegal to sell them I have no chance.

[@stxrynn]

Very nice. I like the way you showed the geartooth profile. Never dawned on me it was developed like that.

[@andyk3950]

Great content as always! Thoroughly enjoy watching your posts.

[@malcolmrodwell5458]

Like all your videos, which I've watched a stalkerish number of times, this is brilliant. Thanks you

[@davidschaer8974]

Excellent research, excellent presentation! To echo others, i look forward to seeing the next incarnation of this technique!

[@ezzzzie]

great video!! this is such an interesting fact about the way involute gears were originally manufactured

[@jackhewitt7902]

A fantastic video showing the old way of doing things the mechanism you used is also very elegant in my opinion

[@robertpartsmade5832]

Sir , as always informative and expertly executed it is sometimes a bumpy road to success!! Brilliant way to start a rainy English summers day here in the 🇬🇧 Regards Robert Partsmade

[@debarra136]

Great video, thanks for taking the time to tinker and film.

[@TUTOROchainoilers]

Fantastic - so glad you are back making videos !!

[@RookieLock]

Dude, the intro was awesome!! Great video. Very informative. Thanks!

[@MrEyad1990]

Freaking finally . Never missed someones voice this much .

[@DDBerlin]

Wonderful. I found the same articles a few years ago and since then have the trial on my list.

[@burnerjack01]

Not only very informative, but I find your dry wit to be somewhat hilarious. I doff me cap to you sir! Well done.

[@CAPTIANKIPPER]

Loving the clickspring sample!

[@z3099943]

Lots of laughs from this video. Great stuff. Especially when you were getting the computer to run calculations. Thank you very much

[@wetdedstuocm]

Kudos to you for making this work.. Waiting for the follow up.. Peace

[@alpacker2955]

Classic Engineering Entertainment! Brilliant as always Geoff!!

[@grottonisred6541]

There are some clever guys out there and you sir are one of them. Perseverance is the key. I was brought up on gear geometry back in the day, it wasn't easy to understand then and I'm pretty sure things haven't changed. ...ah .....the mysteries of the involute...😫😫

[@masteryoda2918]

Well done! - loved the video . . for the first time I understand how these gears are cut like that. your suggested solution - is to use the index gear itself to with a rack-gear mounted on top of it - as the table to the left it rols the work piece - when you need to shift the tooth then it just shifts one gear notch up and repeat.

[@wizrom3046]

That was the cleverest, most interesting, failure I ever watched for 17 and a half minutes. 👍😉

[@GartenOHM]

Im at minute 3 and i Love you for this video ! You Are doing magic in my eyes. Great inspiration. Luckily i have a shaper !

[@galvedro]

Brilliant! Awesome content, awesome production! Kudos!

[@ErikBongers]

Thanks. This inspired me to create my own contraption. A flattened and reduced version of yours.

[@jmtx.]

Awesome journey from concept to cutting!

[@robguyatt9602]

A not shy Aussie here. You done good. Clever. Funny too. I like.

[@c.j.1089]

Exactly how I expected my first gear cutting attempt to go! As I was watching you make the guide to fit into the gear teeth, I thought it might be a lot more accurate if your tool did not seat all the way into the teeth. You should cut an angle that is shallower than the depth, that way it will exactly find the midpoint every time. It might also be a good idea to load it with some spring tension.

[@PhatPete111]

I got all giddy when i see you now was out, and then sad, knowing i need to wait on the the kids are sleeping, too enjoy it in the fullest, Well done!

[@pouyan225]

Loved the video! cutting gears the old-school way is super attractive to me. somehow it's very trendy nowadays to make everything super complicated and pretend as if it can't be done without thousands of dollars of precision equipment. but people did it back in the day using rudimentary tools and sometimes with better results than what some achieve using fancy tools.

[@PiefacePete46]

@Pouyan : The more I watch modern machine tools perform digital magic, the more I am in awe of the craftsmen engineers of old!... how did they achieve those things?

[@NathanNostaw]

Love it, I can sure see the subtle influence of the other great channels. Look forward to MK2, 3, 4 and beyond. :_

[@jbkltc4469]

i have nothing to add in tearms of gear cutting knowledge, but i must say i really like this project and your video of it!

[@lakerfan82k3]

The intro of this video was fantastic. Love the Mr. Pete samples. You should drop a machinist electronic album. Lmao

[@bostedtap8399]

Excellent engineering at its best, and sadly worst, looking forward to V 2. Thanks for sharing and best regards from the UK.

[@machinist1337]

I love the video, I love all the great comments about how to improve on your design. me personally, I would have used the shaper as it was intended. grind/buy a gear cutter that you need. without a shadow graph it would be very hard to precisely match the grind needed. buying the proper cutter, mounting it to the spindle you made and taking .020 step downs from z until full depth is reached. then rotating manually to the next tooth and repeat. they actually make gear cutting heads that you can mount to your planer. they have a series of graduated dots and you turn a handle to get you exact rotation need for next tooth. anyways loved the video anyway, single point radius cutting on a rotation is pretty cool.

[@TheBudynwaniliowy]

Me and my girlfriend are binge watching your videos from time to time, they are briliant, can't wait for the second part!

[@CaskStrength777]

I wish I could find a woman that binge watched machining videos with me. That's a truly special person you found

[@thomaskessler4585]

...and after finishing “this little problem” I would be excited to learn how to shape (generate) internal gears ! Not kidding... Thanks for your interesting video.

[@michaelhayward7572]

This is good. Not heard of this channel before. Subscribed. I'm in the process of making a 40T gear on my Boxford 8" shaper using a H/V 6" Vertex Rotab. DOC will be the trickiest bit i reckon. Wish me luck. That Viceroy looks like a modern squared off version of the old Royal / Alba / Elliot 10" shapers. Regards, fellow shaper freak,

[@89RASMUS]

Interesting project. Replace the wire and wheel for a rack and pinion and I think you will have a greater chance for success. And perhaps integrate the dividing mechanism into the pinion as well. A simple way could be to have the axle running freely inside the pinion and have the corresponding dimples, depending on the division of the manufactured gear, drilled into it and a locking lug on the pinion to engage into said dimples. If you use the same pitch and module on the rack, pinion and gear to cut, I guess you could just step the pinion over for indexing.

[@nathanmatthews9315]

First off, great video, very inspiring! Reading through the article a few times, I notice it says the tool should be made "to the form of a rack tooth", which makes sense since rack teeth have straight sides. According to the Machinery's Handbook, and if my math is right, that would make the tip width = (0.5 π - 2.5 tan φ) / P. (P = diametral pitch, φ = pressure angle). For instance, for a 24 pitch gear, the tip width would be 0.028". Can't wait to try it myself!

[@sheep1ewe]

Great video! Yes, this is indeed the reason why there so often are at least one of those old shapers left in a corner of even the most modern metal workshops ;) Unfortunatly i cannot realy help You but i think something that can lock a given position for each turn possibly would help...

[@Alanbataar]

First video of yours I've watched, and I like it! The production values & editing are top-notch! You're like the Antipodean This Old Tony. I'm also a shaper owner. OK, I'll admit, I haven't read all 289 (at the time of writing) comments. And I've only cut a few gears, and they didn't turn out that great either... so with that grain of salt.... Here are my meager suggestions: a) Decide which is more important, the outcome or the exploration. If the outcome is what you want... it's vastly easier to create a gear hob on the lathe, and then make the gears using the hob in the lathe. It cuts all the teeth at once, and doesn't require high-precision indexing, only low-precision "gashing" which is just roughing cuts to get the hob started. b) If the exploration of cutting gears on a shaper is more important, try these things: 1) If you have a gear with the correct number of teeth (diameter is irrelevant) get a rack that matches the the pressure angle angle and pitch. Use the gear rigidly attached to the indexer shaft, and the rack is stationary and rotates the indexer as the table moves. This eliminates the wire lash-up which is suspect on repeatability. 2) This is a heavier lift, but if you have the means to produce a multiple-toothed cutter for the shaper (you could, literally, split a hob down the middle... you'd just need to figure out how to hold it in the clapper box), that will both speed up the cutting and help make the tooth spacing more regular.

[@GeorgeStamoulis81]

Man, I really love your videos. I so wish you could make more of them.. Cheers :)

[@dillongreaves9452]

Did he die

[@joycethomas8868]

Nice work. I watch the whole video. Greetings from Akron, Ohio, USA

[@zukowski2023]

Awesome job for taking a wild assed dive at it! I am looking forward to see the "next step". Good Luck! Great videos by the way! ( P.S. I think "Tony" would be impressed, know I am..)

[@MrAllanwinks]

Brilliant video, I can’t wait for the next episode😍

[@J0nnyGT]

First I just say what a great series of videos you produce. In response to your request on ideas on how to make the ‘thing’ into mk2, I think the issues relate to rigidity and the possibility for the cables moving slightly each time carrying error into the work. What my make one solid post with dovetails to mount solid to the shaper with a shaft through the centre to allow you to mount the index and material. Alternatively if that’s not possible this could be a great excuse to buy more machines.

[@trongytrong5845]

Nice, very enjoyable video. Well done

[@jameshanoomansing1442]

you are very skillful....well done

[@eamontreanor1363]

It's been a while mate, nice to see you posting again.

[@mrayco]

Very very satisfying video I love it very very much thank you. Waiting for more

[@infoanorexic]

appreciate seeing your perspective on this device. I think (???) you may have brought one aspect to the setup into ... well, less muddied at least ... water for me. Looking forward to V 2.x

[@christopherwarner3]

Hoping all is well, channel has been quiet and we're looking forward to another build video 👍

[@Doughboy1941]

This video is the definition of "where there is a will there is a way". Can't wait for version 2.0. Regards, Silas

[@GeoffreyCroker]

Haha, cheers Silas

[@boonetesterman]

Just found your channel! Love it!

[@Theamerican606]

Your videos are the best!

[@BalancedLugger]

Superb. Absolutely brilliant.

[@omarbz8681]

You got a new sub dude, because you are such a great mind reader

[@ivanpetrov8600]

Amazing work! Thank you very much!

[@Redchrome1]

You're a brave man and you make me feel stupid by comparison. Excellent well done!

[@kenshelhamer9816]

Excellent explanation!! Thank you.

[@truthseeker1623]

Total and utter brilliant love your logic or ...but your mind will find a solution as errors are there to help us find solutions. GREAT STUFF.

[@Valeriyanich]

Oooooow boy! That`s awesome! We may name it "колхоз", but thas is a true spirit of engineering! Keep her steady!

[@stupid-handle]

Nice method you spot there!. Now I'm left thinking of ways of acheiving the same with the lathe.

[@owenvinall9970]

I enjoyed your video and your easy going approach.Subscribed. Owen