SHINZEN Defines ENLIGHTENMENT

This is an outtake from the larger presentation (Part 2) of Shinzen's Mandala. During his presentation, someone asked him to define enlightenment - and he gave this Executive Summary - before returning to his presentation.
January 2001
www.BasicMindfulness.com
www.Shinzen.org
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[@siewkonsum7291]

Once, my Zen Teacher asked me, "What is Enlightenment?" I replied, "Sir I don't know what is Enlightenment. Even if I am enlightened, I don't know, because I don't know what is Enlightenment." My teacher smiled and said to me "Let's practice together." 😊

[@buddhistsympathizer1136]

I understand and respect that this is your own definition of 'Enlightenment'. For me, Stream Entry is only the first step. In the fetters path, this is the breaking of the first fetter (and the next two fall with the first). This leaves the rest of the seven fetters unbroken. I have attained Stream Entry - However, I do not consider myself enlightened or believe that I have achieved 'Enlightenment'. There is still suffering (4th and 5th fetters). True Enlightenment (in my own definition) is breaking all fetters - Arahatship. The end of suffering. The experiential realisation that all things are empty.

[@yogiveg697]

Wow! What's stream entry like??

[@willx1598]

You are hanging on to the idea that your suffering is suffering, when you feel whatever you may define as suffering don't believe your mind when it places labels as good or bad

[@alankuntz6494]

He's saying the exact same thing

[@Bakmoon]

Stream entry is a stage of enlightenment, however, and experiencing it is an experience of enlightenment.

[@alankuntz6494]

And I Keep on keeping on after that

[@paranoid492]

they are complete polar opposites of a state of mind.

[@yuchishih]

Felt sense of being the manifestation of an unique and continuous subset of all possibilities.

[@darrylhoff9974]

Loving the intellectual talk in the comments! But where is the love with some of you? Try to share your truths with some kindness and respect. We are human beings, not animals haha!

[@obliooberon3679]

Human beings are animals,kinda like discrimination or prejudice or denial...the internet is not human nor is it "life" man made like society....look at the species ,what they have done with thier intellect...

[@reddypraveen8230]

Does this go counter productive with individuality?

[@ioanamiruna4470]

No, you have the feeling that you can do anything. Not from a limited and conditioned space

[@sneedle252]

What makes the personality an entity "inside" you, as opposed to a quality?

[@mr.meeseeks3238]

Thought form maybe idk

[@mr.meeseeks3238]

Oh 7 years ago? How’ve you been friend?

[@Yoyourma]

What's the difference between atheism and enlightenment or are they one in the same?

[@mujaku]

That Buddha taught that in the five skandhas (the conditioned psychophysical organism) there is no self. But this is not, however, a denial of self. Far from it. The Buddha is saying that we should not look for self in what is not the self (anâtman) which is the psychophysical organism. Stream-entry is our entry into unconditioned reality which transcends the psychophysical order..

[@hellucination9905]

Could enlightenment trigger panic and anxiety? I got anxious when losing the grip of my self in this specific moment and clinged with all my power to it. I am not ready to let go.

[@InebriatedMonk]

It's just the ego holding on, move more into your soul and out of your mind.

[@shabegsingh1843]

@@InebriatedMonk anatman

[@AndreasDelleske]

You still imagine "you" have a "grip" onto an object you call "self" if I read you well. You even think you are able to "cling".. but is there a "clinger", really? Show us! Now! Who is the clinger? Who holds the grip? Is it the self or is it you or what else is?

[@iggyaztec]

the 'insight' of the stream-enterer is gradually habituated to by the practitioner, and the 'practical' cultivation (of this 'critical' insight) achieves its socio/biological-evolution as the resultant arhat. Their 'insight' into reality is nevertheless of 'one taste.'

[@zatoichiable]

It seems Budhism has no pointers. A belief, dogma, a destination. Just a path.

[@michaelmounteney2034]

In that case, what realises?

[@shabegsingh1843]

previously deluded consciousness -it's like wiping a dirty window clean and being able to see clearly

[@juliangiulio3147]

Yes. This is what I tell people. Or rather, it is prerequisite, and then the mind can go Naturally Still, and thenn Soemthign Else takes over, which we see has always 'taken over' :) But I would not call that 'persnality' (having been in a Gurdjieff school, I see persoanlity, I beliee like many do now, as the condtioned self, nothing really to do with our 'essence'... I would say the real alive whole Character is Genuine Individuality!

[@osmositeequilibria9903]

so the non-enlightened person sees self as a particle, the enlightened sees self as a wave. But wave-particle duality and e=mcsquared show that matter(particle) and energy(wave) are the same and interchangeable. So what absolute truth is it that the enlightened have discovered? They are seeing the self as just a wave, in the same way the non-enlightened are seeing the self as just a particle, so they have also not discovered the absolute truth that the self (and everything else is both). To say no it's not a particle, its a wave! Is to say no its not this, its that. However this vs that has no meaning when everything material is equal to everything(or no thing) immaterial, and the totality is one.

[@6Uncles]

you do realize that by wave, he means metaphorically right? Not in terms of physics.

[@supertigik]

what you refer to here is a more advanced stage of enlightenment

[@halweststar]

Physics is something and enlightenment is something else

[@skyjuke2006]

In my opinion when you follow ethic values, you are full of joy and you are heart-centered, than you are enlightened! But there are other ways to achieve that...

[@doedelhai2010]

Shinzen young claims that stream entry is enlightenment. This is odd given the fact that Theravada Buddhism´s understanding of enlightenment ist arahatship, the final stage of spiritual progress.

[@6Uncles]

The questioner asks what Shinzen defines as enlightenment. He's using enlightenment to refer to stream-entry, the first stage. Nothing is odd here - he's simply defining his terms and is well aware of the 4 stages.

[@buddhistsympathizer1136]

I agree - I also agree with David Wu. For me, Stream Entry is only the first step. In the fetters path, this is the breaking of the first fetter (and the next two fall with the first). This leaves the rest of the seven fetters unbroken. I have attained Stream Entry - However, I do not consider myself enlightened or believes that I have achieved 'Enlightenment'. There is still suffering (4th and 5th fetters). True Enlightenment (in my own definition) is breaking all fetters - Arahatship. The end of suffering.

[@Yuna69able]

Its even possible that the monks who taught shinzen don't understand enlightenment. Even from a reputable place in japan that he went to. Its not such an impossible accusation they aren't enlightened. Why not? Its hard for a lot of people to understand even famous prominent modern day seekers and such who claim to know it and teach it don't....

[@vaibhavg7139]

This is a crap definition. Any intense trauma can remove the sense of self, leaving us with emptiness. Without embodiment of consciousness we are only left with a state of derealisation and disassociation. Like as if we are floating in nothingness. Universal, impersonal Consciousness needs to recognise itself as this emptiness and embody the space.... almost becoming a new self thingy!

[@mihugong3153]

Yeah, I mean Shinzen was just starting giving a talk and so just told it super briefly. I mean, he knows the difference, in another video, he describes in-detail that seeing "the ox" (emptiness) is only the first step, you have to "learn to ride the ox", meaning integrate the no-self experience truly.

[@Yuna69able]

buddha never said "stream entry" or in fact you need to meditate at all to see the truth. No meditation is required to see ultimate truth. You just need to look at it. There is "no self" because the "self" changes shape. Everything changes shape so you couldn't have a "self" all by itself.

[@cosmofox]

Yuna69able Please. Please stop your pontificating. It is so painfully obvious that little upstart smart-mouths like yourself are not enlightened, not spiritually mature by any standard, including Buddha's.

[@GreenwooddPop]

Hello. I'm familiar about the Buddhism from watching Shinzens and Yuttadhammo Bhikkhus videos here on youtube, so it's good to keep that in mind I'm not expert. In one of Shinzens talks he said that we all are on a spiritual path whether we are aware of that or not and meditation is like a vehicle along the road or a tool that is useful to understand oneself at surface and deeper levels. Otherwise it's a much slimmer chance that one will realize ones true nature. So in a sense, you are right. One does not need to practice meditation, but it can be very useful to develop mindfulness skills to inspect self, which at first, for most of us, feels solid and disconnected. I'm curious did the context, in which the Buddha lived, differs from todays modern westernized culture and would that possibly influence the way he approaches his teachings. Around 1:08 he says "...you realize there's never been a **thing** inside you called the self" and later he says that self is an activity called personality. So both of you don't really disagree with each other, at least in my mind. One thing good to realize that theory is a theory. As I develop more skills and understand self better the theory, not changed a bit, but the context that I view it from is a bit different. Different teachers may use different terminology, but refer to the same thing. Talking specifically about the enlightenment, Shinzen uses metaphor that it is a many sided jewel and one teacher may emphasize one side of it than the other. Sorry for long post.

[@Yuna69able]

Here is what Buddha would say. Imagine you held a pot of gold up to the Buddha. Most people would crave a pot of gold wouldn't you agree shinzen? Buddha laughs because its not a real pot of gold. The object of desire isn't real. Why should you crave something if it isn't even real to begin with? Remember the pot of gold is not real because it will change into everything else. You know how people say "I am one with everything"? So remember that gold will change into a tree. The things you crave aren't real!! That's what Buddha would say. Not "there is no self inside of me".

[@osmositeequilibria9903]

Yuna69able you mean the things you crave are impermanent!! They are real alright!

[@Yuna69able]

it ain't real! NOT REAL. LIKE JELLO. OR CLAY.

[@osmositeequilibria9903]

what do u crave then that isn't real?!

[@Yuna69able]

This is not correct and I'm calling it. That is not even what a Buddhist would say. Enlightenment is seeing reality is not real and being free from the delusion that it is in fact real. Buddha uses the word "form". So if you are substituting "form" for "self" then that's still a really weak statement for a new comer of the topic and is misleading to the newcomer.

[@buddhistsympathizer1136]

What is meant by 'not real'? True Buddhism would state that things are empty. 'Reality is not real' can be viewed as a self-refuting statement. What is 'reality' if not what we consider to be 'real'?