Shocked that Statins do THIS in Muscles!

"High-dose atorvastatin therapy progressively decreases skeletal muscle mitochondrial respiratory capacity in humans" - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38385...
0:00 - New study surprised me!
0:29 - New study: Statins harm mitochondria
0:42 - Upfront caveats
1:07 - Study overview
2:00 - Statins decreased mitochondrial capacity
3:16 - Complex IV hit hardest
4:00 - VO2?
5:15 - Next steps
6:10 - CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

[@GeorgeP-uj8xc]

My mother was put on Statins as a healthy and active 56 year old because of high cholesterol. She started feeling horrible within the first month.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Sorry she didn't feel well.

[@clovermark39]

My Mum was put on them when she was 80 yrs and they are not recommended for people over 75. She had the muscle problems and started having problem with walking amongst other things. I perseuded her to come off them as I thought she would end up in a wheel chair. She is 95 this year and doing very well. Walks me round the shops every week anyway.

[@Oktaiktanktanski]

Same here. I also felt numb in a...dumb&dumber sense 😉

[@chandebrec5856]

Here's my n=1 result: I've been on statins for nearly 30 years (since Mevacor was the only choice). I'm 78 now, feel good. I can't deadlift quite as much as I could 25 years ago, but I can deadlift 2.5x my wife's weight :) As to aerobic capacity, I'm on a StairMaster for 25 min. 6x/week. P.S. after reading a bunch of other comments: if you want to read about every rumor and n=1 report about how horrible statins are, just go to a Nick Norwitz video that mentions them!

[@e365exercise3]

Every family member of mine has issues with statins. This was the reason I avoided it like my life depended on it.

[@Randsbutler]

My statin exp 5 years ago. 80 mg Lipitor After 60 days I could not sleep My arm pain in my muscles was not tolerable My prostate psa doubled My foggy head with odd pulse sensations After stopping within 2 weeks all the symptoms stopped

[@DK-pr9ny]

80mg is a massive dose

[@welanduzfullo8496]

why 80 mg, 5mg gets you 85% of the lowering capacity

[@Randsbutler]

@@welanduzfullo8496 that is what I didn’t understand and I didn’t know the difference back then. But 80 mg made me sick in so many ways I have friends here in Canada on 80 mgs of Lipitor and they just accept the suffering

[@Randsbutler]

@@welanduzfullo8496 I am on 5 mg now because my ldl is 9 HDL. 2 So far no side effects Hopefully you are right and I get my LDL lowered somewhat

[@lorraineandterryscarnivore1893]

Has anyone looked into statins affect on the heart muscle itself? Such as inducing heart failure after years of use?

[@ovenordstrom4601]

That would be intresting, because I have a lean body, first stroke at 34 and now 8 or 9 strokes, even if I have no soft or hard plack, eating healthy (keto), and now heartfailure, narrowing, because of statins? But no more statin for me….

[@petelavelle7987]

Which is EXACTLY why I stopped taking these 4 years ago..... The heart IS a muscle 😮

[@jewelbug8713]

Some stains require supplementation with CoQ10 because they can induce muscle myalgia and pain.

[@akhusal]

Statins increase the coronary calcium score, they increase diabetes which is a leading cause of heart attacks.

[@keithfrancis9293]

No because the facts will harm the share dividends of Big Pharma.

[@johndsmithkoipondgarden.878]

I have always been a very active person , after a month on statin drugs , it was all I could do to just walk. I stop taking the statin all my pain went away, I will never take another.

[@akhusal]

Statins use demonstes how cholesterol helps the body; you just need to look at side effects: muscles pain, increase in diabetes, increase in coronary artery calcification, cognitive and memory decline, increase in belly fat, increase risk of cancer etc. So cholesterol is important for muscle and brain function and preventing diabetes/heart disease/cancer.

[@clovermark39]

Good thinking.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

Yes. More than two million years of hominid evolution thwarted by questionably designed trials (mostly with raw data withheld) showing very low ‘Absolute Risk’ improvements which could be just statistical noise.

[@chandebrec5856]

Calcification of soft plaque is a benefit, not an adverse side effect.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

@@chandebrec5856 Think this paper from Japan needs some analysis then... Statins stimulate atherosclerosis and heart failure: pharmacological mechanisms. Harumi Okuyama. (2015) Expert Rev. Clin. Pharmacol.

[@edv9483]

​@@chandebrec5856Maybe so, but when your doctor sees your calc score of 1300, he poops his pants.

[@chargermopar]

My older obese friend had a lot of pain and mental obstacles while taking Lipitor. He improved greatly when on the carnivore diet and no statins. He died anyway, but I believe that after 5 bypasses and decades of eating duck food did irreperable damage.

[@888jucu]

I think being obese is what killed him and less about "duck" food

[@moparmissile]

Well Rick as a good point but is obsessed with ducks. Whatever he ate was what made him obese. So don't be a vegan or carb addict is my advice and stay well clear of that class of outrageous drugs that make a lot of money and cause great harm.@@888jucu

[@scp240]

High cholesterol is not a disease and by using statins you are merely treating the symptoms, rather than the disease of arteriosclerosis, which is much more strongly related to inflammation and insulin resistance. At least that's my understanding based on watching hundreds of videos and even reading a paper and a book or two. Lifestyle and diet seem to be the key to longevity, not prescription drugs. If you can't make the necessary changes, by all means you may need medication but side effects are to be expected with any drug.

[@stevetonnesen3666]

Thank you for sharing the results of your research. I greatly appreciate your working on the topics that you do.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Appreciate you!

[@Ronlawhouston]

When I took statins, I just felt "achy." I felt like I was a very old man. It wasn't so much pain but more discomfort.

[@gabriellewilliamson5810]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@factsoveremotions6035]

My stepdad is 74, lean but was put on statins to lower cholesterol. He hated it. Said his muscles ached badly, was tired all the time and usually depressed. He stopped taking them after 8 months and feels totally normal again.

[@PorkchopExpression]

My dad was put on statins after a quadruple bypass. Before that he had low cholesterol, low blood pressure and an extremely healthy lifestyle. Anyway, he could barely walk while taking the statin drug so stopped it and feels much better.

[@dawnelder9046]

Look up the Korean Cholesterol Mortality Study published in 2019. Over 12 million subjects. No money from Adventist cult food industry or big pharma. Low cholesterol kills.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

Think this paper from Japan needs some analysis: Statins stimulate atherosclerosis and heart failure: pharmacological mechanisms. Harumi Okuyama (2015).

[@lobstermash]

I was taking rosuvastatin after a heart attack and got the muscle pain quite badly, so I couldn't really exercise. Changed to atorvastatin and reacted with breathlessness on exertion, sometimes severe,gasping for breath. Again, couldn't exercise. So I had a few months off and all symptoms disappeared. Now I have started on pravastatin and so far I have no problems. I have started going for walks again and feel pretty good most of the time. Moral: The different statins on the market are different. Don't give up too easily if you need them. Try again. There may be one that suits you.

[@hughmason7621]

It's worth noting and you might consider mentioning that atorvastatin and the other lipophilic statins distribute to many tissues in the body, including muscles, while the the hydrophilic statins, such as rosuvastatin, largely concentrate in the liver where their action takes place.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Different levels of hydrophobicity for sure. When I tried I was on rosuvastatin. This study looked at atorvastatin, which is very common

[@trentriver]

I am not a fan of statins, but there is also a small increased risk of prostate cancer in men who take long-term statins and when they do get prostate cancer, they tend to a higher Gleason score - i.e., more serious. Combine that with increased risks of DT2 in both men and women and the reason to take them just seems to diminish more and more. Thanks for your research - you and a few others are by far the best presenters on YT - and I've looked at a l lot of them! Please keep up the great work!

[@mystatinfreelife]

Can you point me to the studies for this? I tried to search and all I got were claims that prostate cancer was reduced by statins. I'm no fan of statins either, and the medical profession seems to be always looking for new excuses to give them to patients. I wonder if that's what's going on with the studies I found. (I haven't read them in detail yet.)

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

" you and a few others are by far the best presenters on YT" -- thanks to much! Who else do you like to watch, out of curiosity?

[@trentriver]

@@nicknorwitzPhD Physionic, Rhonda Patrick ... Gil Carvalho, ...

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Hey@@trentriver look what dropped at the same time as this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zmmsd6GrjM6fqqM

[@johnhogue9402]

@@trentrivercheck out Bart Kay. He can be a bit abrasive, but he’s the best on YT that I’ve found when it comes to properly interpreting studies.

[@gray45374]

Very clear, with balanced delivery. Thanks Nick.

[@IPMan-me6lo]

Thank you, it explained my own experience with statin prescription. I can agree, the observation of losing energy and muscle strength is real, and it will come up earlier or later on a lower dose of statins too. It takes me around two years to experience the downgrade on 20 mg atorvastatin. It needed only 3 weeks to feel better after stop taking it. I got statins as part of a standard prescription for high blood pressure. There were no cardiovascular or heart problems diagnosed at this time.

[@monnoo8221]

if statins get prescribed as part of treatment for high blood pressure, I assume in primary prevention == BEFORE a CVD event happened, then that doctor should be sent to jail, directly. It is NOT covered by research. There are some easy life style ways to bring down blood pressure 15 points within 4 weeks. But that would require thinking on the side of the doctor. ...which is not paid.

[@IPMan-me6lo]

@@monnoo8221 Tell it, the Irish GP Society. 😉

[@scotchbarrel4429]

Im digging the subtitles, good work Nick 👊

[@mystatinfreelife]

We're told over and over that "The benefits of statins outweigh the risks" as if that's an absolute, scientific statement. It's actually a value judgment and really should be up to each individual patient to decide. And for that, they need to get complete information. When I was on them, my doctor told me, when I complained that I couldn't exercise as hard as before, that I should just exercise less strenuously.

[@nutritioncoachjo]

I decided to give statins a try since my cardiologist didn’t like that I had too much plaque in my main artery. I tried half the dose the doctor prescribed and took it every other day and I still had bad side effects. The stains also rapidly increased my small ldl particle size and decreased my HDL/good cholesterol and this was in an 2 month timeframe. I stopped the statin and decided to go back on my Bergamot supplement and increase exercise. Small ldl particle are back down and HDL is back up. Triglycerides were unchanged with the statin and remained low. My experiment proved to me while it did lower my LDL, it made other more important markers worse.

[@XaqNautilus]

You can't say statins are bad in today's world because that would be a career limiting move for you. Well played.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I didn't say that... I just was bold enough to report on peer-reviewed published data in a reputable journal highlighting a side effect of a medication... GASP!

[@uaebifvideo5472]

​@@nicknorwitzPhDSorry , he told you exactly what you're doing !!.

[@chad512]

More negative researching coming out on statins since GLP-1 receptor agonists show cardiac benefits. To justify the massive cost increase for switching from statins to GLP-1 receptor agonists, the risk reward narrative on statins needs to change to make statins a suboptimal choice.

[@XaqNautilus]

@@nicknorwitzPhD That doesn't make what I said not true.

[@dangallagher6176]

@@XaqNautilus You're implying that he is fighting against the institution and he is kindly reminding you that the institution doesn't need fighting against

[@robyn3349]

Thank you, Nick. I am on alert for statin adverse effects studies as I had a horrible experience with a statin. I had no muscle pain. I believe my mitochondria were severely affected in my whole body. For some reason (?), the adverse effects of statins has not been properly studied. My cardiologist did not report my symptoms.

[@AnneMB955]

Interested in any statin studies. I appreciate your analyses of these investigations and presenting them in a clear and not dumbed down way. 👏

[@oiputthatback7361]

My GP tried to put me on statins for HDL cholesterol , the look I gave her was worse than the statins she wanted to put me on, so much so she backed up six feet. Also my partner’s family member was on saying and can no longer walk with ease.

[@stevelanghorn1407]

Great, balanced explanation, as ever. Thanks Nick 👍

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I try :)

[@mark11145]

Fantastic tips. Really looking forward to your drills and training series. Just purchased my first pistol and your channel has been invaluable to me. Thank you.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

" pistol ?" not sure what you mean?

[@Malcolm-Achtman]

I've heard enough "N of 1" stories about statins causing muscle issues and memory loss to convince me that there's a problem. I took a statin (just 10 mg Lipitor) for a short time period after bypass surgery in 2016. I developed a stiff neck and had difficulty turning my head, which I noticed especially while driving my car, because i was struggling to check my "blind spot" when changing lanes in traffic. So I stopped taking the statin and my mobility slowly returned after about a month or so. My doctor wasn't necessarily convinced that the statin was causing my neck stiffness. But I was convinced because normally, I tend to heal quite quickly and this time it took a while. For example, one time (when NOT on statins) I fell awkwardly over another guy (playing hockey) and I must have twisted my neck somewhat because it was very sore and stiff that night. But by the 4th night It was already much improved.

[@robertwilliamson922]

I’m a 72 year old male, quadruple cardiac bypass, on 80mg Atorvastatin among a few other drugs. My left shoulder and upper arm has been in significant pain for months. Range of motion significantly lessened. Suppose to be getting an X-Ray and ultra-sound a few weeks from now. Thank you so much for your video.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I'm sorry to hear about your history. Hopefully I was clear I'm not providing medical advice and it sounds like you have good reason to be medicated. Also sorry about your symptoms. Hopefully you feel well taken care of by your doctors

[@robertwilliamson922]

@@nicknorwitzPhD Thank you for your kind words and videos. Best wishes.

[@scottorgan2255]

The risks outweigh the benefits

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Context context context

[@Maintain_Decorum]

The profits outweigh the side effects. 🤦‍♀️

[@briancavanaugh7604]

@@nicknorwitzPhD So please supply the context in which this trash is actually helpful to any great degree. I don't consider 10,000 doses needed to prevent a single MI event to be "worth it."

[@stevelanghorn1407]

Exactly👍@@nicknorwitzPhD

[@arnoldfrackenmeyer8157]

@@briancavanaugh7604 Brian you bring up a very good point. I never thought about in doses. But I am aware of the difference in Relative Risk Reduction, Absolute Risk Reduction, and Number Needed to treat.

[@arnoldfrackenmeyer8157]

And to think the heart is a muscle. Our most important muscle.

[@gstlynx]

Another great analysis.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Thanks!

[@RebekahBavryCPHC]

Very interesting! Thank you!

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

welcome!

[@powerguiller]

Statin lowers your choleterol, but it depletes your Coenzyme Q10, and Coenzyme Q10 is abundant in red meat but red meat increases your cholesterol. This is not a paradox anymore, it is a medical oxymoron.

[@monnoo8221]

every paradoxon is based on a wrong or self-contradictory procedure\assumption. Here: LDL is not bad. Its oxidation is. And that is easy to avoid

[@powerguiller]

that’s the main problem, health care systems are still pushing misinformation, and naive people are still believing them. I’ve taken statin my self a long time ago until it ruptured my knees.

[@giuseppebonatici7169]

as a side note of muscle function, I found a study in pigs that shows that supplementing with malic acid made their meat redder, and increased oxidation and antioxidant capability in muscle. (that was searching in how I can make better sodas (cleaner, keto, potentially nutritious), and malic acid tastes is like half the taste in some fruits). Pig are quite close to humans (omnivorous mammal) and people in fruit heavy diets are eating tons of malic acid so it cannot be that risky. It is also part of the citric acid cycle so it make sense that it could enhance mitochondrial function if there is a shortage of some malic acid intermediary. So I though: wth, lets try it. that was like 3 week ago, and I have been ingesting low amount of malic acid in custom sodas (and malate salt to reduce acidity) and I it seems to work in a subtle way. my diet is currently a mess (and deteriorating) and it should only make things worse. (malic acid at moderate concentrations is known to make the mouth hurt for unknown reasons, independent of acidity. all organic acids (especially citric, malic and fumaric acids) can damage teeth enamel)

[@1pcmedic]

On LIPATOR, my fly fishing casting arm hurt so bad because the muscle would not heal after a full day of casting. Not knowing what the problem really was, I rested my arm on the console in the car and told my son to pick up my hand/arm and move it all around, NO PAIN. As soon as I did the same movements the pain was excruciating. Stopped LIPATOR, pain gone in about a week. Got switched to CRESTOR, after a few years all of a sudden my legs drove me crazy when I got into bed. Being active all day I couldn't feel it, but at rest my focus went right to my legs. Couln't get comfortable, kept moving them and changing positions. The feeling I had from the knee down to the foot was like if the whole area was covered by a giant blood pressure cuff, then it was pumped up just enough to feel some pressure. Got off CRESTOR and went to Zetia and Welchol (an intestine coating medicine) so far so good, I have hereditary high cholesterol........ I told the doctor, lock me in a room, feed me salads for a month. If my cholesterol is still high, its my body and that's the way it goes.

[@katharinemorrison4326]

I wonder what the effects are on the most important muscle of all, the heart.

[@josefinecarlsgart]

Mechanisticly speaking it's spot on. 👌

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

TYVM!

[@comptytom]

I in my 70s have had to give up on statins due to muscle weakness, cramps, and mental fog. They've called it an allergy. I think I have neuropathy issues too.

[@studentaccount4354]

I am glad you are speaking up on this. I think cognitive decline might be associated with some pharmaceuticals, not necessarily statins. The problem with these meds is that they are too reductionist. There are multiple causes of CAD. Maintaining proper weight, exercise, proper nutrition, work life balance etc. TYVM ❤

[@OIOnaut]

That Oreo T-shirt is hilarious ;)

[@nwolinsP]

I take high dose statin and go on bike rides and have not seen a lose in power.

[@vadimesharak726]

Lipitor is known as the reducer of ACVD in absolute scale in 0.6-1.8% range on all doses. The very same time, it is known as TD2 promoter at 3.6% range, as well as hemorrhoidal stroke about 4.5% at high dosage. Neither cardiologists nor family doctors know it. Fanny think, it is in the full drug prescription information available for free...

[@susangrande8142]

Umm, I think you mean “hemorrhagic stroke,” not “hemorrhoidal stroke?” 🙂 But you make a good point. Yes, docs probably don’t pay much attention to the risks of T2D or stroke.

[@jewelbug8713]

My husband had a small (but serious) hemorrhagic stroke 2 months ago and was in the neuro ICU for 3 days. They gave him Lipitor (he's type 2 diabetic) and heparin shots x 2 (until he told them he didn't want them anymore and refused). They stated the lipitor would help clear the debris post bleed. I'm sure they had this knowledge you mentioned and chose to order these anyway . . . For reasons. What do I know? I'm not a doctor. But I am a nurse and could not WAIT for him to be discharged. Of course they're going to play the CYA game and hit him with heparin because they wouldn't let him out of bed until the physical therapy team came to see him and get him up and walking. So hey, if the heparin caused him a bigger problem (ie., another bleed), all the better for them. He'd get an extended stay with even more pancakes to go with his uncontrolled diabetes . . . That is, if he survived (sigh). Fast forward, to today; he no longer skips his BP meds, takes his BP 3x/day, took the statin until followup pcp visit, changed to a low-carb, zero grains and no processed foods diet, and got his Requip increased, bcs his RLS was so bad he hadn't been sleeping well for over a year. Lack of sleep increases cortisol, which increases BP. Refined carbs increases insulin, and chronically elevated insulin increases BP. Lack of sleep increases appetite due to increased cortisol. Eating carbs exacerbates RLS. Uncontrolled RLS causes a bad night's sleep.

[@MusicByJC]

I think part of the problem is "high-dose" statins. While there are certainly some people that will have high LDL even if they adopt good lifestyle changes like exercise, healthy food, lose weight, etc. I believe many are on high statin doses because they depend solely on the drug to reduce LDL. I had high cholesterol over 4 years ago. I started exercising, lost weight, and change my diet. My cholesterol dropped substantially but was still at or above the high normal range and stayed their after a couple of blood tests that were over 4 months apart. I wanted to reduce my cholesterol further so I went on low-dose statin of Crestor 5mg every other day, which brings my LDL to 70 or below. I have been on for over 18 months and feel great. The doctor warned me about possible muscle soreness but have noticed nothing. I weight train and haven't noticed any difference before and after, except that I have gotten stronger over time, like one would expect when lifting continuously for 18 months.

[@Corkfish1]

Same here. I've been bodybuilding since I was 25 and haven't noticed a difference. As you age your cells don't absorb or transport cholesterol as well. So you end up with too much. No one wants to take statins anymore than anyone wants chemotherapy, but sometimes your back is against the wall. I'm 65 and and my dad has been on statins for 30 years. He's at the gym right now doing pushups.

[@catharsis77]

The composition of our LDL seems to be what is important as far as cardiac risk goes. Seems like one could have a 'lower' LDL and it's composition be such that it is more potentially risky than that of someone with a 'higher' level of cholesterol but healthy LDL.

[@KenJackson_US]

Years ago, the word "data" was correctly treated as a collective singular noun like: sand, hair, grass, water and air. It should never have been changed. We should say *"this data"* instead of "these data". Don't worry, it's always possible to pluck one item out of a collective singular noun: a grain of sand, a strand of hair, a blade of grass, a molecule of water or *a piece of data.*

[@muleface1066]

It would also be interesting to see a longer term study. I don't know of anyone prescribed statins for only 8 weeks. Would mitochondrial function continue to decline or would it stabilize at some point? And given the age demographics of statin users, how much frailty might be attributable to statins?

[@raykinney9907]

Certainly is consistent with my N of 1 experience over years of increasing statin use, with many perceived health parameter declines accumulating, including very serious muscle pain. doctors strongly 'suggested' that I should NOT go off them, even for a few month test period. Finally, i reached a desperate point of calling total 'BS' to their claims of 'evidence based' insistence. After stopping, I rapidly improved, over six months.

[@raykinney9907]

And, upon asking them to cite their specific research supporting their insistence..... they declined to do so, saying their protocols came through med schools, and therefore were the best evidence. I asked them to cite this, and they still declined to do so.

[@juliebrady8583]

A doctor I know came off statins due to muscle pain. He's still healthy 20 years later. He did change his diet.

[@diablominero]

I personally will never take a statin, but it's not because of side effects. I personally derive psychological benefit from having a few drug classes I'll always refuse on principle, and statins seemed like a pretty safe choice because they have minimal benefits.

[@alane3983]

Interesting and disconcerting. I’m on low dose statins and they are working well to control LDL. No muscle pain. I’m an active and fit 63 year old with normal bmi and good muscle mass. I strength train and run and don’t have any specific issues. This study does make me wonder if there is a degradation in my aerobic capacity due to the statins but I am improving, slowly, all the time. Not worried at this point but will keep an eye out for new information.

[@natalieclausson4339]

I would be interested in hearing your opinions on this paper: The Incidence of Adverse Drug Reactions in Patients Treated with Statins in the Emirates: A Retrospective Cohort Study.

[@Xraller]

I’m convinced that statins are causing cognitive decline. As soon as he started taking them he started having problems.

[@brendabowers2320]

Same here with my 75 year old, quad bypass husband. Thing is he doesn’t see what’s happening like I can.

[@katesmiles4208]

Eight weeks strikes me as too short to give meaningful results on the accumulative impact or benefits of the drug.

[@richardmoeller3143]

I have a few friends who have been on statins for years and they went and had CAC scans and theirs was high.

[@chandebrec5856]

Calcification of arterial plaque is a positive side effect of statins. Calcified plaque doesn't cause clots and the resulting heart attacks or strokes. Soft (non-calcified) plaque does that.

[@richardmoeller3143]

@@chandebrec5856 there’s nothing positive about calcified plaque. You don’t want any calcium period

[@doloresgarm7021]

@@chandebrec5856 Calcification certainly isn't a positive when it becomes so thick that it blocks blood flow. I have 3 stents to prove it.

[@richardmoeller3143]

It also affected my memory, I started forgetting names etc.

[@chandebrec5856]

Hmm, lots of people report that symptom as they get older, regardless of statin use.

[@tommydinob]

Nick, can you comment on the findings of the Cleveland Clinic in February, that referred to niacin and increased cardiovascular risk? They’re now claiming that niacin metabolism results in a compound referred to as 4PY. And that said compound drastically increases vascular inflammation and atherosclerosis. They indicate a two times increased risk of infarction. Do you believe this?

[@Jaji1948]

I experienced extreme muscle pain and symptoms just like dementia when I was on statins. I told my doctor who said, I quote, "Your numbers look good, keep taking the meds." Thanks, but no thanks.

[@JasonBuckman]

I lost 25 lbs of muscle from statin-induced myopathy. No pain, but I was extremely weak.

[@vince1229]

Statin induced muscle loss and pain can be misdiagnosed as sciatica.

[@timothy5988]

Can you elaborate more regarding this issue. I'm a 62 year old male who has been a distance runner for over 40 years. My cholesterol is "borderline" 230....my GP put me on a statin 2 years ago....I began suffering with severe sciatica that makes running very painful...deep in the glutes and lower leg numbness. GP claims it's a disc issue...and that might be.....I don't know..but I've never had back or sciatica pain like this

[@mleii1169]

Any research showing a reversal of this impact when statins are stopped? Also, you mentioned one of the side effects with statins being muscle pain and cramps, is there a good resource to understand the mechanism for that? I don't take statins, but every now and then I get muscle cramps and twitches in my calves and feet that my Drs don't seem to be able to figure out. In fact they started up again a couple of weeks ago. :( Electrolytes are fine every time I get tested so fairly certain that's not it. I haven't figured out a correlation yet either. :( I'm in decent shape for my age, though I know I can get more fit, so I'm puzzled as to what might be causing this and so going down various rabbit holes to figure this out. I have an appt in July with my new GP so having a bit of things to research here would be great. So far as I can tell there isn't a pattern. I thought maybe it was elevated calcium due to Vitamin D intake, but I've cut it out and that didn't make it go away and the blood tests showed that while I was at the higher end of the range I wasn't above it. It also tends to happen more when I'm just sitting still or sleeping in bed at night, when I move around I don't get the twitching, though I have had strains so bad in the calves that it seems to cause injury for a few days. Anyway, not looking for medical advice, just what areas of research I could do here to narrow this down so I can not get set back in my exercise.

[@ArcoZakus]

"... Electrolytes are fine every time I get tested …" One of the many videos I have watched about magnesium (I don't remember which) explained that our bodies control the level in the bloodstream well enough that it is not always a good indicator of a deficiency in tissue. (If it is low in the bloodstream then it definitely is a problem.) The Dr. in the video suggested taking a supplement for a few weeks to see whether the symptoms that might be caused by a deficiency, like muscle cramps, improve. I tried that but saw no improvement. I suspect that any problems with circulation might keep the muscles from getting what they need even when blood tests look OK. Do you have any symptoms of chronic veinous insufficiency? Despite standard medical advice that CVI is the result of genes and age and can only be "managed" (symptoms treated with procedures and prescription drugs) not cured, I have seen significant improvements in mine since eliminating sugar intake and gradually shifting my diet to reduce all other carbohydrates and increase fats. Muscle cramps not eliminated, but occur less frequently and less intensely even after stopping the magnesium (and potassium) supplements. No telling whether there's any cause and effect there or just coincidence. (N=1, YMMV.)

[@mleii1169]

​@@ArcoZakus I appreciate the feedback in your reply as it is helpful. Magnesium "shouldn't" be the issue as the test came back fine and I had been trying to raise using an electrolyte supplement and didn't really notice a difference. I mainly got tested to be sure, and nothing seemed to help and it keeps happening now and then and I'd like to know why as it causes strains and limits my exercise when it happens. I suppose a red blood cell test might help get at this, I had one MANY years ago, though not sure it really told me much of anything back then, and not sure it tells you anything about what's in muscle or other tissues. To be fair it does seem like it's getting a bit better now, still twitching and sometimes "almost" feels like it'll cramp but haven't cramped/spasmed for several days now. But I would still like to figure out why so I can see if I can solve it. I used to lift a lot when younger but even then I'd get to a point where muscles would start to cramp up or get really "tight" or stiff and cause me to get reset as I'd have to take time off. And I even cut back on how fast I increased the load and it didn't seem to matter. Back then I was doing a lot more protein powders and a lot more carbs so not sure if that had an impact on the muscle stiffness at the time. I will look more into CVI, though a quick read it seems like I might have the opposite problem, I get it sitting or laying down and standing up or moving around "fixes" it for me whereas it seems to say you get pain when standing and goes away when you raise your legs. Though I have also found running compression socks helpful. I used to use when I was training for a marathon, about 5 or so years ago, and was getting cramps and soreness. That and for a very long time I've had no hair on my lower part of my legs which I've always found odd, been this way forever, figured I just wore off the hair with socks or something but maybe I should look more into that. I also thought maybe it was Peripheral Arterial Disease given it's symptoms but a ankle-brachial index I did on myself didn't seem to indicate that was an issue. Though would be better to have my Dr do it just in case I messed something up. Though it's a pretty easy test to do, only difficulty is I'm using my home BP device and not sure how well it works for ankles. As far as diet goes, I'm mostly low sugar/carb as it makes me not feel good GI/etc wise when I do eat it. I've done carnivore and keto but even then I'd get this.

[@mleii1169]

It does seem that it could be CVI based on more reading, the mention compression socks helping. Though it does mention daily exercise helping, I was indeed doing that though maybe not strenuously enough? I walked almost every day for 45-60 minutes, not flat ground, all pretty much hilly walks. And I normally don't notice any calf or foot pain when walking, though after a calf spasm it is pretty tender and can feel a bit of pain. While I don't think I get edema that much I do notice that my socks often show their markings in the skin for a bit longer than I'd expect, especially the compression socks. I might have some varicose veins, need to look closer as I don't normally look at the back of my own calves. LOL Oh and I sit A LOT, hence why I try to get in daily walks, I work from home on my computer all day so I'm sitting. And do notice that just getting up from sitting helps so maybe it's just all the sitting I've done, also since forever as I've worked on computers for a very long time, almost my entire career. So I'll definitely have to dig more into this. Thank you. Not sure I recall reading about this before. Maybe I need to look up every thing that can cause cramps and just try to rule them in/out. If it were electrolytes I'd expect it to be everywhere and not just my feet and calves.

[@CamHart-oj3do]

This study like others suggest that statins, (prescribed to protect the heart) can damage muscles. So with the heart being a muscle, can one suggest that statins may have the potential to damage the heart, while lowering LDL-c levels?

[@WhereNerdyisCool]

Lipitor made me pretty achey, like DOMS after a workout. Switching to Crestor made that all go away. But I’d be curious how that experiment works for Crestor

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Thanks for sharing! I've only ever tried Crestor. Would love to see the comparison!

[@carolj.3175]

Do you have thought in Zetia? Im likely LMHR which my Dr knows nothing about of course. Wants me on it wven though I'm only 270 total & really good HDL. Thanks

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

my next n = 1 series of experiments after OveoVsStatin may or may not include Zetia ;)

[@PardieDiem]

I was on statins and for the first time in my life I pulled a muscle. It took a couple of months to heal. That's my control group. Never again. By the way, isn't the heart consider a muscle!

[@joeymartoni]

Thank you for your work.

[@garylacoursiere4413]

I am a 56 year old high performance powerlifter on 80 mg of Atorvastatin. Do you think there is a possibility that the statins are taking away from my peak performance? Since my peak performance is well-documented and repeatable, what would be a reasonable washout period to test if I'm stronger without statins? I'm not suggesting that I stop the therapy, but maybe I should be cycling off prior to competitions?

[@samelder7530]

It'd be interesting to see a study at a lower dose - 20mg, for instance (which seems to be more common). And with non-obese/sedentary subjects. Just to evaluate the differences.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

ya... I want all the subgroup analyses too :)

[@IonTrone]

the #1 health benefit of statins is a drastic improvement in the health of the profit margins of their manufacturers :)

[@StripedCheeseBread]

Both of my parents were put on statins for a short time. My father zocor. Muscles hurt within the first month. My mom fought her doctor on it, so she took 1/2 dose 10 days before her lab to make the dr think she was taking it lol. Shot her bilirubin up and the internist stated to cease the crestor. My mom is like “told you so.” Both parents are of different nationalities. Why do you need statins when you can get a grain mill and make all carbs fresh that will more than likely lower the cholesterol?

[@peterfaber7124]

Does this effect also happen in the heart?

[@DCGreenZone]

PQQ, MitoQ, CoQ10 others to recover Mitochondrial health and numbers.

[@TteokbokkiNari]

Being a LMHR on VLCD but having terrible mental health on higher carbs puts me in a conundrum. I also likewise know what stains have done to both my parents so I avoid them even though my doctor keeps asking me whenever I see him for some routine labs. I hope I am not wrong and that being a LMHR won't shorten my lifespan as a young person so that I'll live to 40 years old tops but otoh I'm more likely to end my life way before that if I am on a higher carb diet to lower my cholesterol so..

[@monnoo8221]

you don't need higher carbs... where do you start, and what do you refer to as "high"'? and carbs in which form?

[@wendykircher6490]

Love the Oreo shirt!

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

get it! get it!

[@kevinkelley5438]

It would be interesting to see what happens when taken off the statin for a brief time to measure their mitochondrial function and see if they notice any difference in how they feel. I think they may not notice the difference as they are likely very sedentary and are accustomed to a certain level of lethargy.

[@lobstermash]

My experience, shared by many commenters, is that the symptoms disappear quite rapidly - noticeable improvement in a week or less.

[@nancysmith-baker1813]

You know what yhis tell me . I need more good fat not less . Thankyou for the vidio and all those that commented how statins made the feel .

[@markiangooley]

I was on Lipitor for years when there was no generic version. No apparent effects whatever. Perhaps I got lucky. Type 1 diabetic and I guess my doctor then thought I needed it.

[@crazitaco]

Again, it is very important to acknowledge that there are some people that should absolutely be on statins. I have familial hypercholesterolemia, and that means that without statins, even when I was at an normal weight, my LDL was 295! Literally off the scale. With FH there's a inherited defect that prevents the body from clearing fats properly like in other people, so it just remains there indefinitely and oxidizes, causing damage. And to fix this issue, I only have to be on a low dose of around 20mg. In my case the statins are replacing what my body is unable to do on its own. Both my grandpas had heart attacks, one died at the age of 60, while the other had to get a stint, so I sure am not taking any chances. That's a very different story from someone who has high cholesterol due to obesity, they can get their cholesterol into a normal range by losing the weight, and that would be the healthiest option for them.

[@jacobdebernardi4385]

I'd like your thoughts on the use case for statins, because all I know right now are the drawbacks.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

What about this study of high cholesterol being common in exceptional long-livety. Shunsuke Murata (September 2023) Blood biomarker profiles and exceptional longevity: comparison of centenarians and non-centenarians in a 35-year follow-up of the Swedish AMORIS cohort. Quote: For example, we found that a higher total cholesterol level was associated with a higher chance of becoming centenarian, which stands in contrast to clinical guidelines regarding cholesterol levels...

[@chandebrec5856]

There was a Nov. 2023 online correction to be published in the Apr. 2024 paper edition of the journal. The correction contains this: "Having high cholesterol neither increases nor decreases the probability of living to 100 years of age." PMCID: PMC10828262

[@RichardAMorris]

The Q in your model of the ETC is made by the enzyme HMG-CoA reductase that statins specifically inhibit In the cytosol. And acetoacetate is made by the same enzyme in the mitochondrial matrix. AFAIK No one has looked into whether statins can transit the mt membranes.

[@grandpaseth3779]

Is this kind of muscle damage reversible when people go off of statins, or does the dysfunction persist permanently? Any studies looking at that or reason to believe one way vs the other?

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I'd certainly think reversible. Mitochondria are quite dynamic!

[@mmulholland06]

Would this statin effect on mitochondria in muscle cells also happen with mitochondria in all cells?

[@macoediv]

I tried to talk to my Dr. about the Oreo experiment. She rolled her eyes and said, we only read peer reviewed papers.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

It was peer-reviewed, and co-authored by a lipidologist with >30 years experience

[@macoediv]

@nicknorwitzPhD I know it was. She did not even try to listen. she just kept saying baby aspirin statin is what you need.

[@Mat_Gallusman]

Are statins helpful or necessary in some way ? Many say even in secondary prevention they present no benefit at all. Well...

[@pikachu2003]

I can lower your mortgage… by making you bankrupt. Sounds like Statins to me!!!

[@bradleyboots687]

Statins have really screwed up my life. They ARE bad. Before, I could "work through" muscle weakness and build back up. No more. The pain never goes away.

[@wolfrahmphosphoros5808]

I'm so sorry. I'm never gonna go on them. regards.

[@richardmoeller3143]

What benefits of statins??? There are none… I went on statins and it made me feel very weak, my doctor changed my medication and the cardiologist raised my dose within a month I felt weak again and I started peeing reddish brown, I quit immediately told the doctors to pound sand , started taking Natto kinase and never felt better my blood pressure dropped and it’s never been over 115/ 75 since!!

[@nwolinsP]

Damage to the circulatory system can bring your vo max to zero.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

This is true

[@christopherellis2663]

I can't imagine why anyone would use them

[@hkluft]

i have fh, i’m 32 male, very healthy, about to start 40mg astorvastatin after the doc watching my ldl for a few years. i’m kind of scared starting, but having fh it seems the way to go until alternative medicine is more widely available

[@susangrande8142]

Please, what is “fh?”

[@chandebrec5856]

@@susangrande8142 Familial Hypercholestereolemia -- genetic condition that causes very high cholesterol levels.

[@hkluft]

@@susangrande8142 familial hypercholesterolemia

[@straightgarb]

When should someone take a cholesterol lower med?

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

You know what I'm going to say... talk with your doctor... hopefully doctor is open-minded and not too paternalistic

[@straightgarb]

@@nicknorwitzPhD 54, 6 stents, carnivore.. when is someone going to talk about genetics.. 280 total cholesterol since I have been 20.. never changes... Low HDL, high LDL, Trig 60, ... I workout everyday...

[@johnswanson2863]

I've watched several close relatives and friends discontinue exercise within a month of starting Statin therapy because of prolonged post exercise fatigue and discomfort and a prolonged recovery time. Begs the question: Is eliminating exercise worth the reduction in Ldl????

[@Wings_nut]

For the same reason I would never eat a sleeve of Oreos, I would never take a statin. My PCP recommended a statin even though my CAC score is zero. I told him I'd fire him if he mentions it again.

[@seth101-hv4st]

But a sleeve of Oreos would at least be tasty!🤣

[@janedough6575]

My dad was put on statins when he was in his seventies and physically active and healthy. Within a year he could barely walk. But I’m not a doctor.

[@salleone6387]

Could this by why some people have a higher risk of diabetes on statins?

[@sportysbusiness]

I must have missed something, what are the benefits of statins?

[@YeshuaKingMessiah]

Shocked when they’re known muscle wasters and have so much muscle pain associated with them? Ok

[@Corkfish1]

I'm on 80mg and haven't noticed a difference. I'm 65 and still look better at the beach than most guys half my age.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Love that you're doing well! Again, data are data. Not saying you should or shouldn't do anything. This is just one paper. Take it FWIW and if you're rocking it and happy... who am I to say otherwise?

[@adelarsen9776]

Statins makes T3D, Sarcopenia and Osteoporosis worse.

[@jacksonjstewart]

Is it possible that these likely untrained, metabolically unhealthy eight people suffered loss to APPARENT mitochondrial function as a result of the study (i.e. frequent muscle biopsy, perhaps reduced physical activity during the study period)? Is mitochondrial function DYNAMIC (i.e. potentially quickly rises and falls with interventions) rather than an INTEGRATOR of fitness (like HbA1C is for glucose?) - if dynamic: isn't it possible that this finding is interesting but spurious?

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I think it's highly unlikely these were spurious results. But as mentioned in the video, there are limitations of this study and long-term impact not entirely clear.

[@pmccord9]

8 subjects in 8 weeks of obese people who are possibly not very active. Let's see what a long study with lmhs or simply active subjects over months does to their subjective responses. I'm lmhs and various statins made me variously weaker. However I have a very high calcium score, so my cardiologist keeps insisting and I have to wonder.