SHOGUN 1x8 "The Abyss of Life" Reaction & Discussion!

[@tereoratapaitau3604]

This episode showed the definition of loyalty and how to trick everyone into thinking you have given up.

[@mcfearsun]

Even the viewers, I know he had me like 🤨

[@anas-432]

That’s not loyalty that’s madness

[@sewardquart9641]

​@@anas-432 Average westerner reply

[@coldfire22]

Hiromatsu is the ultimate samurai and friend. Him telling his son to live and serve Toranaga was a huge hint that this was all part of the plan. Hiromatsu dying served Toranaga's plan to have Anjin and Yabushige head to Osaka. Everything that happens is either part of Toranaga's plan, or he quickly shifts and reassess when needed. Even what is to come with Mariko.

[@julian-p]

his real life figure who he was based on "Torii Mototada" before his death, also told the same to his son. to serve their lord even if they don't awarded by it...the historical figure of Hiromatsu's son, Buntaro, actually was not Mariko's husband (real life figure name : Gracia). Gracia's husband was Hosokawa Tadaoki, the head of Hosokawa clan, a daimyo with his own fief, not a part of Toranaga/Tokugawa clan

[@upsetuloss]

Toranaga definitely planned it as you've stated, especially after his remarks later in the episode saying they were predictable. It's a callback to the conversation he had with his son about birds and men.

[@Run1tBackTV]

Still hard to ask a son to behead mo mayter the situation but it was the only play they had left

[@coldfire22]

@@julian-p Yeah.. um.. ok? Why are you replying to me? I'm talking about a character, not the real life person he was based off of.

[@julian-p]

@@coldfire22 because hiromatsu and the real one "Torii Mototada" both telling their kids to serve their lord no matter what. you mention it on the second paragraph of your original comment...best to check your own writing first before replied to another 😁

[@rantejimai7224]

“To deceive your enemy, you have to deceive your friend first.”

[@プリム兄さん]

正解⭕

[@officiallyallensanity]

Watch the seppuku scene again. when hiromatsu and toranaga were having a staredown. there was a very subtle moment where hiromatsu realized. both of them gave a subtle eye movement at each other.

[@Hikaru-Makimura]

their facial expressions are insanely good

[@sadpanda1787]

Hiromatsu knew he had to follow through if his best friends plans are to succeed. He took his own life for the cause. This episode showed us people's loyalties wavering, some people even questioned if loyalty was a bad thing, and here we have hiromatsu displaying the ultimate act of loyalty. Insane

[@hen913]

@@sadpanda1787 Perfect explanation. Loyalty was the main theme in this episode and Hiromatsu was the epitome of it. I DO wish they made it easier for audiences to understand there was a realization there on both ends but regardless I think it still comes across.

[@defnotatroll]

you know I'd rather not watch it again. haven't even watched it the first time lol, not a fan of watching people gut themselves

[@zy479]

That's like their hands touched each other for just a split second in a storm and slipped away quickly. Almost too subtle for anybody else to discover.

[@fukushimaben.sansantakasan]

As for the plan to deceive the people of Osaka in connection with seppuku, as any Japanese person would know, it was not a plan that had been decided upon in advance. They consider the ideas of others, think about the path they should take, and decide on their own actions. Even if you don't have a meeting in advance, you can know how to act because you can see the other person's feelings. Not everyone wants to die. However, there are people in a position to die in order to serve a good cause. In this case, the higher the rank of the person who dies, the more able they are to deceive the enemy.The man who committed seppuku "felt" that it was his turn, no matter what anyone told him to do.That is why he willingly committed seppuku. From a samurai's perspective on life and death, how you use your life is important. Seppuku may seem like a wasteful death to non-Japanese people, but that is not the case. In this case, by defying Toranaga and committing seppuku, he gives the impression that Toranaga is determined to surrender. And by deceiving Osaka here, Toranaga will have an easier time winning.His death was necessary for Tono to achieve victory. So his death was not in vain. In the Japanese way of thinking, since he died for his lord, his life was worth it.He senses that Toranaga's surrender is a lie, and when he considers why he said such a thing, he realizes that it is a ruse. So, after thinking about what he could do to make that plan even more perfect, he committed seppuku. He understands his role without being told and is willing to die for the cause. I thought that kind of thing was very Japanese.

[@88Cloud]

正しい理解に感謝します。 「katajikenai」

[@fukushimaben.sansantakasan]

@@88Cloud どういたしまして。

[@Charonic]

My feeling is that the show places two lines by Toranaga and Mariko to try to make this clearer to the audience: "Hiromatsu knew his duty well", and "I will not increase the wound by disagreeing [with your actions]". Toranaga was placed in a difficult spot: his generals were about to revolt, and any response he could've made would've either meant giving up on his plans or losing a significant amount of his military strength. By committing seppuku, Hiromatsu gave representation and catharsis to the discontent in Toranaga's court, and the shock and grief of the situation prevented the others from pushing. It is uncertain to what extent Hiromatsu actually "understood" what he was doing. In the West, "understanding" has a clear, logical, and conscious implication, but Hiromatsu's "understanding" here was probably more subconscious, intuitive, and emotional. Hiromatsu would not have known exactly the reactions his death would case, but had a strong sense of duty towards his lord (his "karma"), a deep understanding of the emotions and "fate" running through the court, as well as the significance of seppuku as a ritual and symbol of their culture. My feeling is a combination these factors compelled him to make the decision. A big part of this is about the Eastern conception of karma / fate, and Nagakado's death is particularly telling here. Nagakado's karma, just like Hiromatsu's, is to serve his lord, and similarly to Hiromatsu, there is no way that Nagakado knew that the best way to do so is for him to hit his head on a rock and die. In fact, Nagakado thought the best thing to do was to was to cut down Saeki in a brothel; he is, after all, an idiot. But despite not being an individual of any understanding whatsoever, Nagakado fulfills his karma and serves his lord better than any way he could've ever conceived. This shows us that in the Eastern understanding of the world, duty and karma are not merely things that one consciously chooses to act out, but are rather subconscious, spiritual realities. One way to make sense of it is to interpret karma as a desire or obligation that transcends physical boundaries (although I'm not sure if this is the right way to do so): Nagakado and Hiromatsu both deeply desired to serve their lord, and thus both end up doing so, regardless of whether they were able to do so consciously or not. That's why Toranaga honors them both at the end of the episode, even though one was a fool and the other was wise, because it is not their understanding of duty that is being honored, it is more about the depth of their karma or desire to serve him being fulfilled. So how much of Toranaga's "plan" was actually planned? How much was it was patiently waiting for opportunities? How much of it was pure luck? Hopefully this rather long-winded rant will be of some help for the audience, when we start to ask these questions.

[@Jumpoable]

@@Charonic Excellent analysis. The fool & the wiseman, karma & duty, fuzzy logic & ritual death harnessed as collective catharsis for anger & grief.

[@nawlsone586]

I wouldn't say sepukku is wasteful death, it's more of an extreme reactive choice.

[@nightkingengti3940]

Yabushige would not leave Edo aboard John Blackthorne’s ship unless he was sure that Toranaga was going to surrender. Toranaga wanted Yabushige to move the ship and the weapons, but it had to appear like it was all Yabushige’s decision and not a war move by Toranaga. At the end of Shōgun episode 8, when Yabushige and Blackthorne were already aboard the Englishman’s ship, Lady Mariko arrived with a message from Toranaga. Whatever Toranaga’s battle plan is, it involves John Blackthorne and his ship.

[@lrjw68]

This

[@okaforchidera3547]

This is smart

[@CulinVlau]

That ship looked Japanese.

[@Brendissimo1]

This is pretty spot on, except the Erasmus is still rotting in harbor back in Omi's fishing village on the Izu Peninsula. But yes, Toranaga's plan somehow requires both Anjin to be on the Erasmus and for it to be rearmed with its guns (and presumably the trained gunnery crews). However the elaborateness of this sequence of events leads me to believe that Anjin is in on the plan as well. Because if he was left to his own devices I see no reason why he would try to recover to guns if it meant he might not be able to leave Japan again. He's already been given license to leave Japan and take his crew with him, in this episode. He doesn't need the guns to do that, just men and supplies to fix up the Erasmus and leave.

[@carlart74]

@@Brendissimo1 if i was a 17th centruy sailor.. i wouldn't leave for open water or even coastal water until i had at least some cannons to defend my own ship.. just sayin'

[@sabsmcdabs7139]

Had tears streaming down my face at the end of this episode. Gah no! Such a great episode again

[@codywalsh2075]

My throat was sore the whole time 😭

[@genichiro77]

they don't miss

[@periwinkyyyyy]

@@codywalsh2075 me af because i was trying so hard at first not to cry but ended up crying anyways lol

[@codywalsh2075]

@@periwinkyyyyy after watching another reaction i cried 😭

[@blackman7186]

Hiromatsu knew the plan without Toranaga telling him and he just did his duty, That why he refused Buntaro to die as well so that he could be helpful to Toranaga in the future. He also said that believes in our lord even if it seems he doesn't believe in himself.

[@jbud475]

this thumbs up

[@internetgoat4831]

Exactly.

[@Hikaru-Makimura]

Yeah there was a "death stare" for a few seconds between Toranaga and Hiromatsu. I believe that was when they understood each other without even saying a word.

[@blackman7186]

@Hikaru-Makimura No, that was just their inner emotional outburst. Both knew the other's intention but had no choice in the matter, not even being able to speak their true feelings and just coldly watching each other despite being best friends. Hiromatsu knew all along. How much time do you think he has spent with Toranaga? Ever since he was twelve years old!! Do you think he wouldn't know after all this time?.

[@Hikaru-Makimura]

@@blackman7186 that's... exactly what I was saying.

[@keelyandere4956]

Lord Bantoro really going through the most this episode, first his wife refused to dye with him, then his dad's like nah son, you not dying with me either. He is in his rejection era

[@nont18411]

It’s his karma. He denied Mariko the chance to die with her dad. Now Buntaro himself was denied the chance to die with his own father. He wanted Toranaga to allow him to kill Blackthorne so Toranaga gave his permission in the cruelest way possible: to kill his own father.

[@ssotkow]

His father imparted his son the most important message that Buntaro needed to hear in his all-time low. To live... by having a purpose. The purpose is to serve their Lord Toranaga... when Crimson Tide commences.

[@gregwillson7952]

It must be awful to be everything your culture expects of you, to be a brave and cunning warrior, happy to lay down your life for the cause... and yet find no acceptance or happiness in any of it.

[@djsugarbear6715]

​@@ssotkow.......roll Tide

[@imgonnatouchyoun1gg4]

Nah fuck that guy, he deserved every pain coming through him.

[@julian-p]

old man Hiromatsu was based on historical figure "Torii Mototada". He served Tokugawa (Toranaga) since his lord was still a kid. When Tokugawa was running from Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido), Mototada volunter to be the rear guard, Even though he can run, In an act of loyalty to his lord Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga) Mototada chose to remain behind, honoring his friend & lord's request, and defend fushimi castle, which block the way to edo (His Lord's base). He defend it with only 1800 men against Ishida's (Ishido) 40.000. Their held for 12 days, killing thousands of enemies, until only 10 men remaining, including Mototada and then they do ritual suicide / seppuku. This sacrifice buyed time for Tokugawa to raise 90.000 troops and raise his army's morales to face Ishida (Ishido) at Sekigahara. Mototada's suicide at the fall of Fushimi Castle is one of the most celebrated acts of seppuku in Japanese history. In honor & battle, he is perhaps the greatest samurai. Mototada last words to his lord before they parted ways sadly knowing that they would never see each other again : "....I am resolved to make a stand within the castle and to die a quick death. It would not take much trouble to break through a part of their numbers and escape, no matter how many tens of thousands of horsemen approached for the attack or by how many columns we were surrounded. But that is not the true meaning of being a warrior, and it would be difficult to account as loyalty. Rather, I will stand off the forces of the entire country here, and ... die a resplendent death."

[@jalcome4201]

a series with better fight choreographers, we wouldve seen that. but alas, drama. Fine too, but real history is badass too

[@屁デニーズ屁]

Torii Mototada did not die by seppuku. He was defeated in a duel with Suzuki Shigetomo. For a samurai, dying in a duel is the greatest way to die, even better than seppuku. The truth is cooler than fiction. The bloodstained tatami mats from Fushimi Castle, where Torii Mototada fought, are still preserved in a temple in Kyoto as a testament to his loyalty.

[@julian-p]

@@屁デニーズ屁 🤣 where is your source for that??..the record is clear about that, torrii and his families kill themself...and also, the greatest honor for samurai in term of dying, is seppuku, died on the battlefield was below it. if a samurai died by duel or in a battle, his head got taken as a trophy, that is why before they died or got captured, they do seppuku. so their head can be proper buried or hidden. example of this, is when Nobunaga kill himself at honnoji, or when otani yoshitsugu kill himself after his army lost to kobayakawa hideaki.

[@forddon]

Sorry but Hiromatsu is clearly based on Hosokawa Fujitaka as Buntaro is based on his son Hosokawa Tadaoki Mariko is of course Hosokawa Gracia daughter of Akechi Mitsuhide.

[@julian-p]

@@forddon Hosokawa fujitaka was not a retainer of Tokugawa. indeed buntaro was based on hosokawa tadaoki, but the relation between buntaro and hiromatsu as father and son was clearly not based on relation of the real figures. Hiromatsu is clearly based on Torii Mototada, he who serve his lord since his lord was little, he who died buying time for his lord for the battle of sekigahara, died by seppuku. these are clear refferences of Torrii Mototada

[@ショコラタ]

“覚悟”のレベルが違う...。 この言葉の意味を今一度考えさせられた。

[@blackman7186]

19:02 She WAS loyal to her husband. When she slept with John, she was under the assumption that her husband was dead.

[@Gyc864]

Only took her a day to get over it though 😂

[@blackman7186]

@Gyc864 it wasn't just a day. It may look like that because the chain of events appears to happen one after another but I'm pretty sure a lot of time had gone by between the two events. Probably a few months.

[@jackson857]

Exactly. If she wasn't loyal she would have continued sleeping with him.

[@thomassavage-hx6ux]

based on that particular marriages dynamic loyalty was also an insult. acting poorly would have been akin to lowering herself closer to him. she could never accept being comparable as a person to him in her mind. and she would rather ask for death than give him the hope that would come from that comparability. so being loyal was not just a cultural action but a psychological coping mechanism. basically she is better than him in all controllable ways to keep her victims superiority pure.

[@CharifRocka]

​@@jackson857😂 ok. John loyal to his wife he abandoned in England?

[@panathenaea]

Blackthorn found out what it is to live for yourself…it can be lonely. Now he’s caught between two worlds allying with someone he doesn’t like

[@SutekhDaSteemroller]

He doesn't not like him. He respects him. They're similar people

[@panathenaea]

@@SutekhDaSteemroller didn’t he call him a sh*trace at their meeting? I don’t think he’s forgotten the murder if his crew member

[@BattleMatt]

@@SutekhDaSteemroller have you even watched the series? No way are they similar people.

[@ceezyjeffezy2213]

I think Lady Ochiba reflected Toranga in actions this episode. No one around them knows their true intentions. At his son’s grave was the first time Toranga voiced his plan openly. Only in front of a dead body did Ochiba allow herself to be her old self Ruri then quickly covered it up. Ochiba still doesn’t believe Toranga has given up until he’s kneeling but he has Mariko up his sleeve.

[@PROVOCATEURSK]

Courtesans don´t deserve such bad neighbours.

[@tonypee3465]

Dude... lmao

[@ssotkow]

The Pope just left the chat.

[@アキコ2003]

Lmaooo true

[@leonrussell9607]

Could be worse, could've been muslims

[@アキコ2003]

@@leonrussell9607 every religious cult would've been a bad neighbor, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist..every single one.

[@khaii13]

Toranaga keeping his mask up as Hiromatsu was committing seppuku is a God-Tier level of stoic self control. And the fact that he actually had to control himself like that means he's not just a psychopath. That close up on his face as thte head rolled to his feet...💔💔💔

[@SutekhDaSteemroller]

It's actually keeping poker face but you can clearly tell he's like " I love you brother and I won't let you die in vain" while saying "I will not yield to your wishes" in once expression.

[@vanyadolly]

Omi's character growth and reaction to Nagakado's death was one of the unexpected pleasures of the show. Even though Omi appeared to only be manipulating him, Nagakado's forthright character clearly touched him after all.

[@エリザベス桂-x5y]

皆んなが同じストーリー、同じ内容のドラマを視聴したが視聴者それぞれ解釈が違うのが面白いね。 文化的な要素が強いドラマだから日本人なら簡単に解釈できるシーンでも海外の人からは解釈が難しいシーンもあるみたいだね。 そこで皆んなが自分なりの解釈をコメントして理解を深めようとしている。 このドラマの最大の魅力の一つだね！

[@mobis3928]

それね。人によっては「お茶入れただけやんけ」としか写らんかったり。

[@ameliacraiig4193]

So, how do _you_ see it? Is Blackthorne privy to Toranaga's plan or not?

[@エリザベス桂-x5y]

@@ameliacraiig4193 何かネタバレになりそうな予感がするからコメントは差し控えさして下さい。 次回9話の展開を皆んなで楽しみましょう^_^

[@kunifumi5264]

「不可解」とか「理解に苦しむ」とかではなく、自分なりに考えて理解しようとしてくれてる。それがこの作品の持つ力だと思います。

[@ameliacraiig4193]

@@エリザベス桂-x5y Well, that comment wasn't helpful. This particular adaptation has veered away so substantially from the book in many respects, that speculating about how you think John's input or not in the plan will fare, IS NOT a spoiler - it's purely speculative.

[@dennist.8210]

Actor playing Hiromatsu is truly superb. His look, his voice etc all scream "badass" I was really sad to see him go this episode, but knew (from the final look he shared with Toranaga) it was all part of a bigger plan.

[@bwallatube]

discovered the FX official pod cast on youtube this week, very informative about Hiromatsu, probably going back through the previous eps

[@croscott]

only watching your guys reaction and hearing Hiromatsu's words to his son the second time ("Do not give up on our lord. Even when it APPEARS he has given up on himself.") I realised what he was actually saying! It was a hint to him and everyone present, basically, if you're second-guessing your loyalty to your lord because he APPEARS to have given up, that's exactly why you should STAY loyal because your allegiance is being tested, it's all part of the plan. wow, what a great character!!

[@Spec922]

I think Hiromatsu never knew until he already delcared to do the seppuku. He realized that Toranaga was faking it all when they stared each other down but since he already declared he would do seppuku he had to follow through now to fully sell the lie of surrendering.

[@juvandy]

I don't think so. I think Hiromatsu was playing his role. Part of the point of the show is that whole eightfold fence thing. I think Hiromatsu's fences are just that good that this was all an act by him to convince Toranaga's vassals. Like Toranaga said, Osaka has to believe his defeat is real. It has to be so real that all of his vassals believe it- Yabushige especially. They will desert Toranaga so that he will be most vulnerable.

[@flonom944]

@@juvandy The showrunner spoke about this in the podcast. He said Toranaga's plan was for the other generals to speak out against him and commit seppuku, but didn't expect Hiromatsu to do it instead. But once he offered to do it, Toranaga had to go through with it to sell the lie. But I think they left it ambiguous on purpose, so the viewers could have their own interpretation of things.

[@TylerJovan]

⁠@@flonom944makes no sense. If this was the plan then he would have told Hitomatsu about it and made sure he didn’t initiate it himself. He’s his most trusted advisor and only friend. No way he would trust Mariko more than him. He told her the plan.

[@gwendee5070]

Death of Hiromatsu really hit me hard, watching all the good people around Toranaga who had their best interest in mind for him, this first guy and his son who stood up for him against Ishido insults and the regents, his men who wanted to go to battle but died in the earthquake, his son who only wanted to protect him, his best friend asking him to change his mind and fight, and goddaughter who is going to the castle to save the hostages... I feel so sad. he's doing this for a bigger cause- Japan!

[@LuigiGamesful]

​@@TylerJovan He didn't tell Mariko anything though. Mariko was surprised that he knew John went to Yabushige.

[@BillFinger27]

Absolutely amazing episode This is the first time (both Hollywood and Japanese media) that a seppuku made me bawl my eyes out.

[@wayneparker9331]

I read the novel "Shogun" in junior high school way back in 1980 just before the first miniseries premiered and I've read the book at least 30 times since (I also spent many years living and working in Japan, China and East Asia more generally). If you read the book very closely, what you learn is that Toronaga has this mental habit of categorizing his allies, vassals and the pilot Blackthorne as different species of hawks and falcons that he uses to catch prey. If you didn't realize it, falconry is his favorite leisure sport. Falconry is a great choice by Clavell to explain how Toronaga understands the other characters and views the world. I dabble in falconry and the very first lesson you learn is that those birds of prey are never truly domesticated. They will fly at your command only if trained and conditioned to do so after many months of hard work. And even then, there will come a day when the bird of prey decides on its own whim to simply not return to the fist. That's why the use of falconry by Clavell to illustrate Toronaga's thinking is more than just a fictional allegory; it's really how Toronaga has learned to think of the people around him. They are birds of prey, willing and unwilling, to be used to catch his prey and achieve his desired ends. Toronaga has the moral fiber and emotional empathy to think and recognize these people are fellow human beings with feelings, desires, etc. He does care about his people on a certain and honest level just as he loves his birds of prey. But in the end, he also recognizes that these human "birds of prey" are all flawed and at times make bad decisions that then lead them to seek self-destruction for no good purpose. In the book, there is a scene where Toronaga muses on the stupidity of people and you realize it's not arrogance but simply his understanding that he can't change people any more than he can change the personalities of his birds of prey. Recognizing that human flaws are inevitable, he has learned to accept his allies, vassals, etc. on their own terms and use that knowledge to achieve his one great purpose, to become Shogun. I should add that in the novel, Toda Hiromatsu doesn't commit seppuku or die at all. He's there at the end of the novel. This is one of many changes from the book that I strongly disagree with and it stems from the miniseries writers' trying to make a great story more dramatic when the original is already perfectly so.

[@mannythegrandfather2291]

While I understand your frustrations, I think Hiromatsu' death is perfect and further raises the stakes of the story

[@forddon]

I'm going to give the writers of this show the benifit of a doubt and assume they have never read a book

[@julioareck]

So you read the book at least 30 times, but you still spell the main character's name as Toronaga instead of Toranaga.

[@trentb3148]

I don't think Hiromatsu knew what Toranaga's plan was, but he understood what part he was meant to play. In fact, I think that was why he was probing Toranaga the way he was the last several episodes, because he wanted to understand what he was expected to do. I don't think he really understood Toranaga's plan until he showed that he intended to allow Hiromatsu to commit seppuku. There was just something about his facial expression that told me he was having a realization that THIS was his part to play. So there probably was no secret conversation between the two beforehand. He was Toranaga's chess piece, and he willingly submitted himself to be used as one. Well, maybe. I don't know. This show is way too layered for me to truly understand, but it's a whole lot of fun trying to.

[@mirikaku5811]

No,no, Hiromatsu was in on this. All his life he knew when the day came, he would serve his lord by his life. For the survival of the land. Hiromatsu knew Toranaga was not surrendering and he would be the key to make sure nobody found out. This is common with many Guardian vassals like Hiromatsu.

[@stephyworld8713]

18:18 the BOMBASTIC side eye, Criminal Offensive side eye 👀 that Omi gave to his uncle, and the latter reaction to it was hilarious. 😂😂😂

[@boemokmoss8521]

I LOVED IT SO MUCH...HE SAID MUCH WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHIN💀💀💀💀HE SAW HOW HIS UNCLE IS FULL OF SHIT😩🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@nont18411]

Toranaga: “It’s just a prank, bro.” The prank: 24:08

[@Unliveify]

[@Aragonsdick5170]

😂😂..

[@FatGouf]

Gone wrong

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

Not only do I think Hiromatsu knew but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was his idea to commit sepukku for his one and only friend. I do believe he was that dedicated. RIP Hiromatsu.❤

[@hawkthorn33]

This show... I mean just give them all the awards, even the ones they may not qualify for. Hell best musical. I think it was all a plan. Needed the extra push so that Blackthorn would strike out on his own. Hiromatsu acted as he did as part of the plan. Including telling Bunto not to give up. Hell even "Here is the land for your church, right next to the brothel."

[@theawesomeman9821]

petition them for an Emmy

[@aquilifergroup]

“Best musical”. 😂

[@jhansenduca1478]

I think it was necessary since who knows how many CCTVs Ishido has all over the place. The eyes of Toranaga and Hiromatsu were like a "goodbye my old friend, thank you for serving me". Nagakado's antics were not planned but gave Toranaga more time.

[@甘夏-k3g]

Hiromatsu said 今生の別れにございまする translated farewell in subtitles but actually means goodbye for this life which means we'll see each other after/another life which is Buddhist reincarnation

[@aleckg5291]

Toranaga embodies that line from Sun Tsu’s Art of War - “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

[@rhonafenwick5643]

Absolutely. Though Chinese in origin, _The Art of War_ would have been very familiar to Japanese military men, and Toranaga not only understands the lessons from it, but also has the strength of will to follow those lessons absolutely.

[@mirikaku5811]

Hiromatsu we’re 100% in on this from the beginning. He as Toranagas vassal and closest guardian vassal since Toranangas childhood role was to protect and serve his lord. That means with his life. This is Japanese samurai code. A lot of the highest ranking vassals has done similar in order to secure the survival of their master.

[@l8niteowl55]

I really enjoyed your post episode dialogue, so many great thoughts. You guys rock!

[@dkykbb]

私も文太郎に可哀想と思ってしまったけれど、可哀想なのは鞠子を理解できない事が憐れだと思ったからです。そしてそれを最後に彼の父の広松から本当の答えを教えられてしまうとは。文太郎にとって本当の意味で残酷な生の始まりでした。

[@二コ-u9v]

侍の真髄と凄さを痛感しました

[@cgcmma]

Watch how Toranaga’s illness disappears and he has a pep in his step right after he wakes up.

[@kuma-y2r]

In Japan at the time, there was a custom called ``諌死'' in which a vassal would die to warn a lord if he failed. This led Osaka to believe that Toranaga was serious about surrendering, and that he was willing to do so even if his vassals died.　Also, the ``person who cannot die'' refers to Toranaga. Historically, Toranaga was a feudal lord, but since he was an only child, he always made many sacrifices to survive the country. That's how they made peace.

[@PROVOCATEURSK]

The old guy knew, he sacrificed himself as a part of the plan. Not a chance his best friend/general would not know.

[@mirikaku5811]

Correct, there are many guardian vassals that has done similar sacrifices for the survival of their lords. That is their ultimate responsibility and work. And it is considered highest honor to die for the cause.

[@jemilmuxlow7157]

Just listened to the official podcast and they said Toranaga was hoping the other vassals would commit seppuku but instead his best friend called his bluff. From what I understand it was not Toranaga's intention for THAT to happen but here we are it serve the same (maybe more convincing) purpose.

[@mirikaku5811]

@@jemilmuxlow7157No, Hiromatsu knew a day like this may happen and these people know exactly what to do! Torqnaga needed to completely deceive everybody of his intentions as there are spies everywhere. Hiromatsu did what he had to do.

[@jemilmuxlow7157]

@@mirikaku5811 you can say a hard No if you want. But listen to the podcast where a writer pretty much spells it out. And considering the original material Hiromatsu is not the one to die.

[@mirikaku5811]

@@jemilmuxlow7157I think this is more in line with Tokugawa Ieyasu and the culture and traditions around real Japanese War Lords. All around chess pieces and they are aware of their duties. Its based on James Clavell, but it has been redone to be more authentic in some parts and closer to the Tokugawa life story. Clavell is after all not complete expert in all things Japan during sengoku era..

[@SandUtil]

I think Hiromatsu guessed Tironaga's plan. I feel like they know each other so well, Hiromatsu figured it out and made a play to solidify his plan. I don't think Tironaga ever planned on sacrificing Hiromatsu, but he understood what Hiromatsu was doing when he started his act. You can see the tears in his eyes. That's also why Hiromatsu told Buntaro not to give up on Tironaga even if it looks like he gave up.

[@gameboyn64]

Mariko and buntaro's relationship is so interesting and sad. It started as an arranged marriage that mariko didn't want. Buntaro develops a possessive love for her. His possessiveness is why he refuses to "free" her whether it be seppuku or divorce. Mariko's unwillingness to show any affection to him created a deep seated resentment and jealousy that effect most of his interactions mariko and with people with relation to mariko. A comment that is kind of glossed over is when buntaro says that they were happy in the past. Buntaro say that they were happy but in reality he was the one who was happy. This stems back to buntaro's love being more about wanting mariko presence and affection than truly caring about what mariko herself wants.

[@ValentinasWatching]

No, I think there was an understanding between the 2. I don't think Hiromatsu knew. Not in advance, but they both knew each other so well when they looked at each other that they understood that this is what had to be done for the plan to fall through. He definitely was willing to sacrifice himself to save his Lord, his friend and Japan. And Toranaga was very well aware that's the kind of man Hiromatsu was. It's so heartbreaking how they look at each other. Fantastic acting from everyone.

[@3pcgi959]

I didn't like the series at first, like the first 2 episodes. But today, I love it. I love grand strategy. One of the best series. ❤

[@upsetuloss]

Toranaga was about to get attacked by his vassals, in order to stop that from happening and making it more believable, his friend had to commit Seppuku. It wasn't planned, but when he saw the vassal's intent and hostility, he had a job to stop them while playing a crucial roll in Toranaga's hidden agenda. If you watch that part back, he says "Quiet, this is between me and Lord Toranaga, that was a ruse that only Toranaga and him understood in the moment.

[@kmc4816]

Actually the grabbing of the swords was supposed to signify that they were about to commit seppuku but toranagas boy decided to do in their stead

[@upsetuloss]

@kmc4816 You should go back to the episode and listen as well as understand the full conversation because the vassals were against Toranaga surrendering and weren't going to go with him to surrender because they would be put to death also without a fight. A vassal clearly clutches his samurai sword, not his secondary sword meant for Seppuku before Toranaga's friend states what I said above to deter them and defuse the situation.

[@kmc4816]

@@upsetuloss brother they do a show after every episode and that’s what the director said. Toranagas plan was for the other lords to commit seppuku and they were about to

[@upsetuloss]

@kmc4816 You should watch for yourself and they try to interpret what the director wants to convey. I've literally watched the original movie and am breaking it down to you in detail, but believe what you want lol.

[@kmc4816]

@@upsetuloss I don’t think you understand. The director himself from his mouth said this. Like this isn’t a debate the director is literally telling you what his intentions are lol

[@redtaipei]

Toranaga’s own son (inadvertently) and best friend sacrificed on the chess board. That’s some expensive smokescreen but brilliant and puts Toranaga in a better position to checkmate his opponent.

[@crimsonghoul8983]

Sacrificing your 2 knights

[@Quetzietse]

The reason the crew is not wanting to rejoin is because the blame their whole damn journey on him: they have been talking and have come to the (possibly right) conclusion that Blackthorne *lied* about Spanish ships in order to get them to go to Japan, and when they finally got there, he abondoned them. He dragged them to Japan even when this wasn't necessary, caused their starvation, death, despair, improsonment and torture, and then they are just stuck on an alien island without an idea of what do to. They aren't 'living it up,' they have given up on life. He used to inspire them but now they see his 'inspiration' as manipulation, and they see themselves as pawns to him, not equal friends: their friends are there in that dirty tavern or dead in the sea, and all of that is Blackthorne's fault (to them). That he went there looking like someone they don't know, the clothes thing, that is just the icing on the cake really. I also think Toranaga knowlingly sacrificed his own son to buy himself some time, in the same sense that he sacrificed his best friend for this political theatre. We might want to include the first sepukku dude (Jiru's husband) and his infant son in this list as well. All this while loudly claiming he does not want to *ever* become Shogun. If I am right, Lord Toranaga is a truely fearsome man, and I fully understand why Ochiba no Kata is deathly afraid of him.

[@nowyouknow6023]

I mean , Osaka side knew Toranag is known for his trick,so Toranaga side need really strong message that Toranaga side really defeated. Let be honest here..marching straight to impregnetable Osaka is impossible,beside Toranaga is outnumbered too.. so a ct of suprise is the key..the gun ship back to Osaka is also part of the plan,and i believe his brother too is part of the plan. ANJIN Gun make way to Osaka without any trouble and suspicion, is the key.

[@masatoshinohara5142]

Moeka Sho who is in role of Fuji wrote in Instagram that she could not stop tears when she saw this episode in train. She had afraided to got too much attention of other passengers.

[@Jeton6]

Blackthorn's main goal was originally to establish direct trade between Holland and Japan, possibly England too. Defeating Catholics was ancillary to that.

[@conordoeseverything]

What an episode, just incredible all around.

[@gwendee5070]

Death of Hiromatsu really hit me hard, watching all the good people around Toranaga who had their best interest in mind for him, this first guy and his son who stood up for him against Ishido insults and the regents, his men who wanted to go to battle but died in the earthquake, his son who only wanted to protect him, his best friend asking him to change his mind and fight, and goddaughter who is going to the castle to save the hostages... I feel so sad. he's doing this for a bigger cause- Japan!

[@crimsonghoul8983]

I mean, he really doesn't have much of a choice here other than to play this game. Otherwise Ishido would have massacred Toranaga and everyone who worked under him.

[@silver-potato-kebab-]

Best episode in the series so far! This one had me in tears!

[@alcor4670]

24:53 It might seem that way, but no. Whilst unwavering loyalty and honor was part of the culture of the time, espionage of great cunning was also a part of it. Spies are everywhere, and almost every episode had touched on the subject. Toranaga had no choice but to keep his cards as close as possible, even to the point of distrusting the vassals that swore their allegiance to him. The Taiko knew this, which is why he said that "The man who stands at the greatest height is the loneliest man in the Realm." He was always surrounded by his men and his staff. There was now way for him to even pass along -- much less write -- a message to anyone without raising suspicion. I would hazard a guess that even Hiromatsu didn't even know what the plan was until shortly before he did his last bit of duty for his lord. But it was indeed necessary: every single spy in Edo Castle *_had_* to know that Toranaga finally conceded defeat and would submit quietly. Letting his closest friend die in that manner would quell any doubt the Regents had that he would *not* make a move at Osaka. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the final scene of the final episode would be him pulling a _Shogi_ board from somewhere, and inviting John to play.

[@P.Whitestrake]

I think Omi feels guilty because he was the one who pushed Nagakado to his death (sort of). He did influenced Nagakado to kill Ishido's emissary (Jozen) in episode 4.

[@GreyMagee74]

This the best episode of thr seas for me so far

[@hplovecraft8145]

personally, Toranaga's bestfriend's death was so hurtful because you can see both sides. His bestfriend had some faith in Toranaga that he has plans up to the signing of surrender,He just didn't see that the signing was just a ruse. Toranaga couldn't tell his bestfriend even if he wanted to because he had to sell that he really is surrendering and just hoping that his bestfriend could see beyond what's happening😞

[@JynxedKoma]

*Toranaga

[@aryabaditz3967]

he not plan to kill himself until other Generals bitching about the plan, he must step up n put other in silence n to make Toranaga can keep moving.

[@classicalmusicreplay]

#CANCELTORANAGA

[@JynxedKoma]

@@classicalmusicreplay *TORANAGA-SAMA!!!*

[@jonathanblaze1648]

This show is ridiculously good. The seppuku scene is the best scene so far in the series.

[@Geezman1977]

And imagine, later, his dad advises him to 'learn to be denied'. Their speech is so layered and guarded.

[@RobTheWatcher]

This show, man. I'm floored.

[@silver-potato-kebab-]

27:47 Hiromatsu knew, that's why he told his son Buntaro that he must live on to serve their lord, even if the lord may seem to have given up.

[@Flickaflackafly]

The one bad part of reaction videos and I feel bad for people that do them is that you honestly don’t get the full effect of the show as you would watching in private. Reactioners are so caught up in trying to always give commentary and reacting to such minuscule things that they often miss a ton of the show actually. Always go looking for a reaction video where they actually take everything in and not trying to blabber through scenes but never seems to happen

[@AmethystPaladin]

Toranaga didn't refer to Hiromatsu as a goshawk, that was Yabushige and the Anjin he was referring to. I assume Hiromatsu committed seppuku to convince Yabushige that Toranaga was going to surrender. Because Yabushige did not think that Toranaga was actually going to surrender until the seppuku. For whatever reason, Yabushige needed to be convinced of this. And Toranaga not stopping Hiromatsu and not relenting in his 'surrender', gave Yabushige all the proof he needed. Why? I don't know myself, admittedly.

[@internetgoat4831]

Really hard for them to pay attention when they're talking while the characters are still talking at the same time.

[@mirikaku5811]

This is the work of guardian vassals, for the greater cause to scarify their own life is considered highest honor. It’s a cat and mouse game of who will betray who in power struggle. In order to secure the survival of their lineage (lord) this was a destiny Hiromatsu knew for long time, when that day came, he would fulfill his ultimate service to his Lord, to save his life and survival of the land.

[@dan32321]

The showrunner explained The Scene in the post episode podcast. He didn't explain it super well but basically Hiromatsu took one for his men and his lord. Toranaga was expecting the protesting lords to commit suicide -- which they were preparing to do as one grabbed his sword. But Hiromatsu made the unilateral decision to step in and sacrifice himself for them, given that they had also served under him as well, while also providing the ultimate ruse for Toranaga. If his best and most closest advisor has committed suicide, then he surely has to have given up. And Toranaga couldn't step in, or the entire gig would have been up. It's an incredible, incredible scene.

[@enc69]

The discussion on Ochiba was so great. She’s incredibly hard to read, and there’s a reason they gave us some insight on her relationship with Mariko as children. She’s played the game with such caution, and for so long, it’s arguable that she has the highest stakes of any character in the show. We know the eventual alliance proposal will rely on that dynamic and Mariko’s move. I’m so damn excited for next week. This episode felt the most like GoT.

[@forddon]

Ochiba was the Taiko's consort (some say 2cnd wife) The Taiko killed Mariko's father, mother and all her siblings and was the person she was hiding from for years. The Taiko also killed Ochiba's father, mother, brother, step father and other relatives too numerous to mention but she still had two children by him. Childhood friends? maybe not

[@enc69]

@@forddon so much tea, such little screen time left to do it justice 😭🙃. I wish this was going for another 5 episodes

[@takashiharu-bx8be]

If Hiromatsu had not raised his voice in that scene, all of Toranaga's servants who opposed him would have had to commit seppuku. Hiromatsu assumed this responsibility himself and believed in Toranaga's true intentions. His death was not in vain.

[@TheHankamer]

Always great but there are always more important issues than one's self-interest such as saving the integrity of your home or, more important, your country. Both Torannaga and Maruko are being unselfish whereas John only thinks of himself. He could care less about Japan. Your reactions are always great. Thank you. 😀😀

[@VVoude]

Watching this episode as soon as possible in the morning was huge mistake 🤣 So much ugly crying.

[@RullXov]

The actor playing Hiromatsu was excellent in this episode..

[@kristianharada9514]

Goshawks are extremely fast and low flying raptors. It's actually pretty fuckin cool to watch them hunt

[@bentatefan]

I think we can look at Toranaga’s description of Blackthorne. A hawk that immediately attacks his prey. He’s not a hawk that circles high above patiently waiting.

[@kurremkarmerruk8718]

Yes, I was looking for this comment. Toranaga knows how to use his assets. When he "releases" Blackthorne, it's like taking the hood of a bird of prey. Potential spoilers: he wants him to be a threat that only he can call in.

[@haroldgreen2251]

That is how he sees each of his people.And the most dangerous the smartest is the female peregrine

[@maichin3916]

For the sake of a conspiracy... At the same time, if Toranaga rises up in arms, it will be a battle to commemorate Hiromatu. This will further boost everyone's morale.

[@thedarkblitz]

YES, indeed theres like 3 ways to say the same thing in japanese, the formal way, the VERY formal way and the informal way

[@cis4659]

I had a thought of hiromatsu didn't know the plan until the end but hoped toranaga to have or do something, that's why he told buntaro to believe even tho it seems all is lost. idk, just a personal take on the scene.

[@gerrittlighthart]

The subtitles when Hiromatsu says "You will know what it is to be denied" are so interesting to me, because what he actually says is 「死を許さないものの気持ちがわかるであろう」or "You will know what it is to be denied death," which perfectly mirrors what Mariko has been denied for so long. I wonder why they decided to subtitle is that way.

[@vishalnimkar8246]

Achara Toranaga said that Yabushige and Anjin are goshawks…and not Hiromatsu… Bye Hiromatsu…I really loved that actor and his character in this series…

[@GhostWatcher2024]

A side note: in the book, Blackthorne spent a bit more time with his old shipmates...and left disgusted at them. It was hella abbreviated here with the 2 minute exchange with just 1 crewmate that ended in a beatdown... but it had the same effect: Blackthorne is not Japanese but he's also no longer part of his old crew...he is stranded in between and his last hope of getting the band back together and leaving was in that moment destroyed. In the book he spent time chatting with rhe whoe crew and became increasingly disgusted by them living in their filth and lice and only wanting to drink and fornicate with no interest in leaving... an attitude only a year ago he would have shared in. His disgust at them was disgust at his former self. I think i recall them blaming him for being stuck in Japan, but i dont remember it being that scene. In this episode, it wasnt so much his disgust (save for taking off his outer robe and chucking it at Solomon in disgust and the filthiness) but rather it was the crew who withdrew from him and an instigated fight. Still, the end result is the same.

[@bigpainbiz1459]

Hiromatsu is Toranaga's best man. And Toranaga had never believed Yabushige according to Toranaga's spy working his ass off in the town Izu. It should have been Hiromatsu to go, so the scene really meant Toranaga's defeat to Yabushige. Yabushige was on two sides, both on Toranaga and Ishido, and Ishido also knew what kind of a man Yabushige is. So what Yabushige has saw right there really is legit spy info for Ishido

[@Abbadonhades]

I think Mariko never loved Buntaro. This was an arranged marriage which she expressed strong dissatisfaction with, from the start. That it was a way for her father to remove her from danger, didn't truly enter Mariko's mind until Toronaga brought it up in conversation. On the other hand you have Buntaro who admired Mariko even before they were married, and has loved her with a fervour throughout. And then there's Mariko's shame and sorrow over the loss of her family, that works to further alienate her from her husband. They have been a bad match from the beginning, and it's only Buntaro's deep love for Mariko that prevents him from seeing that. Conversely it is not surprising that Mariko and Blackthorne came together. Blackthorne has been totally reliant on her, and at the same time he doesn't have the preconceived notions or knowledge of her personal shame. Mariko is liberated from her situation when she's with him. She can express the charm and intelligence that she might have to hide in other peoples company, and they are able to bond through conversations about their children, cultural differences et cetera. At least that was before the whole situation became so dire.

[@camillemayers103]

This is my favorite episode so far. Toranaga is playing 3D chess!

[@ラムネ-n9s]

When Hiromatsu says to his son, ``what it is to be denied,'' he is referring to Toranaga. He hoped that his son would one day understand Toranaga's suffering and remain loyal to him for the rest of his life.

[@immortal5626]

Nope he talking about him denying Mariko

[@jemilmuxlow7157]

​@@immortal5626that's what I thought too

[@joshrandor4371]

These actors are amazing....wow

[@FURIOSA175]

Toranaga gave a church site next to the brothel area. This means not allowing the construction of a church from the beginning. Hiramatsu's seppuku is not begging for his life, but a plea in exchange for his life. Loyalty refers to vassals like Hiramatsu. The emotions of this episode are also felt by Japanese people. The content was quite risqué, difficult to understand, deep, and interesting.

[@buntado6]

He "allowed" it, but knew that the father would not want to build the church if it has to be next to the red light district. The geishas on the other hand would not care, they aren't the ones with moral objections based on a belief system.

[@khaii13]

Small Tidbit: Omi was always playing both sides with his uncle, once conversation with Kiku and, even if shaking, he willingly signed that pledge to surrender.

[@haroldgreen2251]

Omi is youngest advisor but only one who sees that Toranaga would not give up always scanning others and thinking it through

[@ミルク-i1r]

家臣１人１人が殿の考えを読み 家臣の行動が殿を導き 殿を生かす

[@andrewward5891]

The priest wasn’t much help to Toranaga since he couldn’t coax the Christian regents to Toranaga’s side. So Toranaga made good on his promise to build a church but stuck it to the priest by putting it next to a bordello.

[@kazuya2306]

Damn torennaga told his son to not trust even him as a father😂 in last episodes .....intentionally or not he became a part of torennaga plans😂

[@AmanCreatesArt]

I think Hiromatsu is the one that proposed his part in this to make sure Toranaga's plan would go through. On a re-watch it seems to come through that way in their eye-acting. Only Hiromatsu, Mariko, and Toranaga are in on whatever has really been going on...

[@Drifter101z]

The Best Series since Games of Thrones. . .The Plot and Storytelling is IMPECABLE. . .

[@zyo00wv]

great acting un this episode especially for buntaro

[@bentatefan]

Mariko is loyal to her father’s memory & wishes and Toranaga.

[@BioluminescentTree]

It's NOT "Asian" culture. What the hell is even that. It's Japanese culture. And of that time at that, though many things are still true to this day. Very important distinction.

[@rhonafenwick5643]

Yet there _are_ a lot of cultural commonalities between the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean spheres because of their millennia of history of mutual influence and conquest. Just like there are things that tie American, British, and Australian people together into a single broad "Western culture" even though all of those peoples have their own distinctive individual cultures as well. A lot of people don't understand that culture isn't a simple matter of "you're either X or you're Y and that's that"; culture is multilayered and complicated.

[@hplovecraft8145]

Buntaro and Mariko is a vicious cycle: He beats her because she's cold, She's cold because he beats her.

[@bazanime]

Technically we only saw one instance of violence which was fueled by the presence of the anjin. The main animosity seems to be that he denied her wish for a long time and she didn't want to be married to his family to start with.

[@JoeRandoms]

bruh this ep was perfect. so many beats hit, such good acting. good ish

[@AllInTheGame01]

Massive S/O to the Actors, Writer Shannon Goss & Director Emmanuel Osei-Kuffour who knocked this episode out of the park! 14:29; Achara as a Brit got the Billingsgate reference :)

[@P.Whitestrake]

33:23 To be fair to you, for sailors or pirates in the 16th to 18th century, every crew who lives or lived on the same ship was counted as the same countrymen regardless where they originated from. Be it from England, Netherlands, Ireland, Kenya, or Spain, the ship is their country. So, you saying those Dutch pirates/sailors were Blackthorne's countrymen, you're not wrong.

[@ShakaZ3D]

This episode has put me firmly on Buntaro's side, and he deserves better than Mariko. That was heart-wrenching and disgusting what she said to him. He showed his heart, and she stabbed it immediately with no remorse. Shout out to Hiromatsu. I shed some tears when he committed himself to Seppuku, and it absolutely had the most meaning. He had been my favorite character from the very first episode outside of Torunaga and it hurt my soul to see him go

[@yoshitun1459]

Buntaro is an abusive asshole though. This was made apparent even before we see him beating his wife. When Mariko and his son show fear around him in their first appearance all together. Just because he wants to be better now because he thinks their dying just shows his character.

[@leonrussell9607]

​@@yoshitun1459kinda marikos fault

[@ShakaZ3D]

@yoshitun1459 no no Mariko is not free of blame. She has approached the marriage with a dismissive attitude from the beginning. She has treated him in this manner for 14 years. Just because he has an intimidating presence doesn't mean he abused them. You are reacting emotionally to one scene, of which she was absolutely the one in the wrong as she was guilty of infidelity and then had the nerve to chastise Buntaro. She has been a hypocrite from the start, and that's due to her belief in Christianity. This has caused her to waver as her loyalty has been called into question by many people. She has never fully committed to the understanding of how to treat a husband. She has probably not once even tried to help him deal with the emotional trauma he experiences due to war. She created that monster by proving her disloyalty to her people by accepting an outsiders faith, and her disloyalty to her clan by not even given that man the common courtesy of a loving woman to come home to and share his vulnerability with the person he loves. The man deserves better, and it's a shame to see a Patriot treated like that.

[@ShakaZ3D]

@dylanrodrigues it wasn't a stranger. Buntaro is the son of Hiromatsu. A name she herself commands respect. A well known, honorable family. She had no respect to Toda clan and

[@max14719]

I really hate to see Hiromatsu go. His character is just too cool to die.

[@adlerzwei]

Trying to rizz up Ochiba is like trying to pet a deadly viper with your bare hands. The lady is scary as hell. 🫣 And also Buntaro: wife, please let’s die together. Wife: no Buntaro: 🥺 … Buntaro: Dad, let me join you in death. Dad: nope Buntaro: 🥺

[@crimsonghoul8983]

Because Buntaro kept denying his wife the same thing and made her suffer and not feel happy when he was around.

[@vielbrz]

For a woman who always wants to die and says she'd rather lived a thousand years than die with him..wow..that is on another of level of rejection..

[@Gomennachai]

この広松の死、虎永の決意を理解できない人は進撃のエルヴィンの事も理解はできません😢