Shooting at distance vs reducing loads and shooting up close. How much does it really matter???

Just going over some of the bullets I have tested and my results as well as addressing some of the miss assumptions about close rang reduced load testing.

[@kentuckywindage222]

My buddy and I were shooting water filled milk jugs at exactly, (by my Vortex Razor 4000 range finder) 1000 yards. He with a 300 WM 26" barrel, me with a stock Savage m10 24" heavy barrel. He with 215gr. Bergers @ 2950 give or take, me with 175gr Matchking @ 2750 give or take, (1100 + fps, so I knew it was way beyond its limits. Still deadly accurate though). We could see my hits through the spotting scope and phone recording. His would jump of course 4ft in the air exploding. After, we went to check around and inspect the target area. Nothing left to find of the Bergers. Interesting to me was 2 or 3 SMK 175gr in the embankment. They were bent like a banana. Not one but all. I have shot for a very long time, but only now, after your explanation of nose up did I truly understand why they were like this. I just never really considered your description. Anyway it showed me why Matchking bullets are target bullets. There was tip deformation also but not a lot. Nice video Keep'em coming.

[@Rocktalk101]

another great video Josh!

[@kentuckywindage222]

This guy just brings it to where average people fully grasp the explanation. Some awesome video's.

[@Yelladog78]

Funny that Hornady takes credit for discovering the tips melting/deforming, a Nosler rep told me about that issue in the late 1990's.

[@EdAb]

Thanks for the excellent video!

[@biggs8729]

I strongly believe rotational stability matters when shooting into gel and live animals. Hornady, Hammer and other bullet manufacturers feel the same. Very interested to see a fast twist v standard twist test on low velocity bullets. Thanks for doing the tests for the rest of us.

[@simplemindedfella]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGHRnYNjnqyShac

[@simplemindedfella]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKe3naCllL1ob5Y

[@simplemindedfella]

Rotational stability absolutely matters, and different bullets lose it at different rates, more so after impact in gelitan, depending on how they mushroom back. Hope you enjoy the couple videos I did testing the theory showing as long as the bullet is stable RPM's really don't matter after impact.

[@RogerSnell]

Now, that's some interesting stuff.

[@simplemindedfella]

What I've been really looking at and digging into recently has been very interesting. I did forget to mention some of how the plastic tips do indeed melt in flight but the copper is not getting hot enough long enough to really make much of a difference and why some of these new aluminum tip bullets I say new but badlands has been using them for years hornady just started using them, it really could make a significant difference especially with ballistic coefficiencies.

[@calangel]

I have an order of custom Bulldozer 2 coming for my Howa mini action 20" in 223/5.56 heavy barrel. It's a custom 60gr, and should have a BC that rivals the 73gr ELD-M, but should get 3200fps or more. I have a few custom parameters that make my bullet a bit different. The lip of the hollow point is thinner, the stem of the aluminum tip is shorter, and the broaching goes closer to the nose walls, each of which makes the nose more "fragile." The back of the bullet is practically the same length and same bearing surface as the 55gr bullet, so it allows for the same friction and internal case capacity as the lighter bullet. The 55gr bulldozer 2 went into the synthetic gel block 5.5-6" before the expansion began. My changes should bring that number down some. Again, I'm aware that this distance in gel isn't the same as distance in tissue, but I would like to see the expansion happen sooner for use against lighter bodied targets.

[@simplemindedfella]

Whitetail deer and larger you want to see several inches of penetration before a bullet opens up that way it's doing its damage in the chest cavity not prematurely. Gelatin is not the same as an animal you really wanna look at what's happening between the 9" mark and 12" mark and that's what's gonna primarily be happening in the chest cavity of medium to large game. I'm excited about some of the new designs badlands is talking about in regards to the bulldozer 3 and tip design for faster expansion but more so lower velocity expansion. It sounds like your custom bullets have some of those designs in it.

[@calangel]

@@simplemindedfella it does, actually. I wondered what he meant when he said "you have the new drill bit" for the bullet. The parameters I wanted would bring that 5.5-6" I saw with the 55gr BD2 down to about 4-4.5" like I saw when I modified the tips of the 55gr BD2 I had. It really only fragments in gel when it impacts above 3000fps, so close in shots against broadside deer and turkey (we can use rifle against turkey where I live) with extensive trauma combined with the ability to hold together like normal at lrangs beyond 100yds is what I was looking for. I think he accomplished his goals, too.

[@gearguidesguns571]

A few years ago, I did a Cull/management hunt in Zimbabwe with my 22-250 and a 375. In the 22-250 I shot the 55 grain Barnes TSX loaded from Double Tap ammo as I didn't have time to reload before the trip. I shot over 90 animals with this load (3700 fps at the muzzle in a 1:12 Twist barrel) from 25 to 275 yards). No animals were lost and I only recovered a few bullets (32 to 37 grains recovered). Most of the animals shot were Impala. I also shot a few smaller Wildebeest, Baboons and a warthog. The 60 grain Badlands should do a good job for you on deer, etc. in a 22 Cal. The 80 Grain Badlands would be good in a 6mm ARC, Dasher, etc. And the 100 Gr Bulldozers are good in the 6mm Creedmoor, 243, etc. By using these smaller copper bullets, you can effectively and humanely hunt with smaller calibers than is possible with target type/lead core bullets.

[@calangel]

@@gearguidesguns571 absolutely! It's also interesting trying to convey this to those who are only accustomed to using lead core bullets, as the idea of using a 55-60gr 22 cal bullet for dear is iffy to them. My bullet is actually finished. Total weight is 58.9gr, and it's about 0.990" in length. S.G. of 1.67 in a 8 twist, 20" barrel at roughly sea level. Jason's estimates for BC down to 1500fps (750yds) is 0.350, but at 224 Remington hunting ranges the BC is expected to be at least 0.38, which is astounding for a 22 cal of this weight. Work up with N133 and Benchmark both yielded 3220fps easy, but I like the load density with N133 as it's about 90-95%, but both showed no pressure even when I heated the cartridges to 115°F to simulate hot weather. All that's left is shoot groups.

[@gearguidesguns571]

@@calangel It sounds as if you have a great 223 load. I would way rather have a premium mono, 55-70 grain 22 caliber bullet for hunting than a thin jacket/lead core 6mm target bullet, ranging from 100-110 grains.

[@samuelpope7798]

I have a 35 year old Sierra reloading manual that describes the limitations of reduced load testing. It can assure you that a bullet will expand down to a certain velocity but it tends to be conservative when it comes to establishing minimum velocities at actual ranges. Sierra may be wrong about that but it's hardly a new theory.

[@simplemindedfella]

I would have to read the article and look at current test and studies to see if there was anything that was truly wrong in it. RPM's is one of the biggest differences and that changes with every different load and its slight variations in velocity as well as every rifle that has a different barrel with different lenths and twist all will have drastically different RPM's and the effect is extremely minimal if at all on how a bullet performs after impact. That's how they can get away with shooting the same grain weight bullet out of something like 300 AAC blackout (subsonic in some cases) as well as shooting that bullet out of say 300 win mag, PRC, or ultra mag. There is no perfect test and there is no way to test all potential variables. Here is a video showing some differences with bullets impacting at really similar velocities yet drastically different RPM's. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGHRnYNjnqyShac

[@samuelpope7798]

@@simplemindedfella Well I watched that video and all I can say is none of those were spinning very fast compared to 150gr full power 300 win mag. I think that spin is not that important in low velocity cartridges like 300BO But that isn't the point I was making. I was simply noting that the idea that reduced load fired at close range doesn't accurately demonstrate the performance of a full power bullet at long range is not a new idea. Whether or not it's true or not is a separate issue.

[@simplemindedfella]

@@samuelpope7798 You are correct, every rifle with its load has to be shot at that exact distance no other rifle can be used or other load with that bullet as well as exact temperatures elevations and humidity for that level of accuracy. That is absolutely correct reducing loads is more drastic of a difference primarily just in RPM's but also BC's and temperatures the bullet get to because of drag friction. There is no way to perfectly test a shot at distance or close range for that matter because no 2 rifles are a 100% identical.

[@biggs8729]

@@simplemindedfellaI followed the link and I think this test could be done better. Use a 1:12 308win and work a load down until the bullet loses stability and tumbles in gel. Then match the velocity of the same bullet in a 300blk with 1:7 twist and see if the bullet stays stable in the gel. Use a bullet that expands at very low velocity.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Thanks

[@simplemindedfella]

You're welcome

[@martinfernandez5005]

Great video! I was considering filling the open tip of a match bullet with low temperature flux and catching the bullet to see if the bonding process was possible due to the heat generated by the rifling. I decided against it because non bonded bullets normally have hardened lead for mushrooming and bonded bullets are pure soft lead adhering to the jacket. I didn't want to pencil game. What are your thoughts? I was thinking of using a high BC bullet short enough to stabilize in a slower twist barrel to avoid having to upgrading my barrel.

[@simplemindedfella]

I don't think it would get hot enough for long enough to bond it.

[@martinfernandez5005]

Tampering with an already finished product might not be legal too.

[@simplemindedfella]

@@martinfernandez5005 not illegal, definitely assuming all liability on one's self if something were to go wrong. Just not worth it in my opinion.

[@jrnbakken4348]

Another great video! Thanx!

[@simplemindedfella]

You're welcome

[@DakotaDinwoodie]

Hello Sir, I've been following your content for a couple years now and I really love what you do for the reloading and hunting community. I have a question for you. I just got a savage 99 chambered in 303 Savage. (basically 30-30) but given that it has a rotary mag I can use whatever high-bc bullet I desire. With a velocity of likely 2100-2300, which 165-190gr bullet would you suggest to give the most reliable expansion out to 200 yards? Thanks!

[@simplemindedfella]

Because it's a rotary mag you're not concerned of one shell case detonating the 1 in front of it so yes you can can use a more modern bullet but you will need to take into consideration bullet seat depths and case capacity start low with your loads and work up. Not shooting passed 200 yd with the average muzzle velocity of 303 savage you are going to want to use something that expands fairly quickly. I would recommend sticking with soft point round nose bullets like the gun was built around I think those would work best for you.

[@DakotaDinwoodie]

@@simplemindedfella I ordered 50 pieces of brass, some h4895 and a bunch of 110gr hornady CX bullets. Should be able to push them to 2600+ and have an extra unique set up in a 108 year old rifle! I ordered some interlocks SPs as well in case the stubby coppers don't do what I want them to, I'll return to the cartridges roots. Should give me reliable expansion out to 300 yards, estimated 1850fps and 850ft-lbs at 300, with 24 inches of drop. That'll be my extreme limit for the open sights. Probably won't shoots past 100.

[@Lure-Benson]

In the Savage 99 you should use the Barns TSX bullets like a 165 grain will make the 303 Savage an amazing deer killer

[@DakotaDinwoodie]

@@Lure-Benson in a 300 savage? sure. but i have a 303 savage. why would i use a heavy copper? they require high velocity to expand compared to a lead core. i couldnt get the 165 much faster than 2100fps id guess, which would give me an effective range of significantly less than a 110gr copper going 500-600 fps faster.

[@travismckenney407]

Please do a test on the Federal Powershok Copper rifle. I use them in 270 win

[@simplemindedfella]

Good suggestion. I don't have any and need to get caught up on ammo/bullets that have been sent to me for testing. I'll see if my local shop has them and might want to sponsor a video. Good luck this season.

[@travismckenney407]

@@simplemindedfella I used them on a buck opening day here in Maine, at 150 yards they were devastating. DRT

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

A call/email to Bryan Litz would probably save you a bunch of money and headache, and give you lots of scientific data to put out in your videos.

[@simplemindedfella]

What little data that seems to be missing out there that I'm looking for I fully plan on over the next few years (because some of that stuff is expensive) getting my own equipment and doing my own test. I do have people I talk to that are professionals in the industry when I run into things that I just can't figure out. I take what I learn from them and adapt my test accordingly because I want my videos to be just raw data that people can see for themselves.

[@kentuckywindage222]

@@simplemindedfella ⬆️This⬆️