Shooting Foam | How We Inject Custom Ski Boot Liners

[@mpix8302]

Yes, buckle the cuffs first top buckle then flex three times to get the heel back into the heel pocket, exactly how I do it and it works. Dives me crazy when I see so many KZbin boot salesmen/boot fitters telling people to buckle the cuffs second buckle and flex to put the heel back into the heel pocket, that method never works for me.

[@bergrud]

Its the best way. Second first.

[@Subie-Driver]

Back in the day when I was a downhill racer I bought a pair of Dynafit 3F Foam ski boots. I called them my Franz Klammer boots…he wore the same boots on the World Cup downhill circuit. Pure custom fit with custom orthotics. Those boots were like wearing slippers…so comfortable. I retired them last year…45 years of great use. Last year blew one wide open. Nothing beats a custom fit boot. Hope you enjoy yours.

[@MrJamesschro]

this guys foot looks just like mine, I understand his pain in trying to get a performance fit in any standard boot. As a kid I always had to suck it up during ski team, but as an adult I had to get a lot of custom work for my boot to get it comfy

[@lorenroot7667]

Man I wish your shop was closer 🙂

[@benjaminselfridge2001]

How many ski dogs do you think the liner will last? Thanks

[@Starthaus]

At least 3.7. Also, 4 bananas (depending on angle).

[@TeamStevers]

Wish you were within driving range. You are impressive with communication.

[@zyumbik]

Is it possible for you to share more info about the type of foam used in the process? I heard different brands use softer/harder foam but what foam is it in the first place? The closest bootfitter to me is about 5000 km and $5000 away and I'm not on a pro race team/no sponsors so I can't get my boots professionally fitted like local racers. I've been fitting my own boots for a while but I feel like I really need a foam liner for my very skinny heel and achilles, so I'm trying to gather as much info as possible.

[@Starthaus]

For the Atomic liner, they use a proprietary foam (they all do) which seems to be mid density compared to other foam kits we see.

[@nathantoney.1501]

Got my Dobermans at start Haus 12 years ago. Still hanging in there. I stopped trying to put them on and take them off in the lot and just drive in my boots. I SERIOUSLY injured my back multiple times trying to get them off after a cold day. They are a race fit plug boot. Zero warmth. I just use boot gloves with a hot hands in between the shell and the neoprene.

[@lorenroot7667]

Why these liners over a zipfit? Just curious. I own a zipfit, and it was a game changer, but I’m looking to step up in performance. Based on watching your videos I’ve gathered you really know what’s up. I’m currently in a Lange RX 130, which is great for powder days and off piste, but I want to move up a level for carving

[@Starthaus]

Oh we are huge ZipFit fans! A foamed liner is just another tool in the shed. Intuition, ZipFit, Sidas Thermal, Sidas Foam, Pulse Foam, (or even a new stock liner), each have their place depending on the skier and what we're trying to fix.

[@rickden8362]

At $375(Atomic web site) they're $100-200+ less than Zipfit, and $50 more than Intuition. I have concerns about how warm they would be, specially compared to Intuition. Having skied for 50 years and been through it all, starting with the original Zips in late 70's Nordicas, foam injected boot's in the 80's, Zipfits in the 90's and then Intuition liners; I would never give up my Intuitions they've been the best combo of performance fit and warmth. Been using Intuition for 30+ years. Racers and pseudo-racers may disagree but they're on a different planet.

[@Starthaus]

@@rickden8362 No doubt! Intuitions are fantastic- we hope to expand our offering from them when we have a bit more space. 🤗

[@Oldwiseguy-59]

Performance vs warmth n comfort- do these liners bridge that gap?

[@rickden8362]

I have my doubts. As someone who has skied for 50+ years and been through it all, starting with the original Zips in late 70's Nordicas, foam injected boot's in the 80's, Zipfits in the 90's and then Intuition liners for the last 30 years; I would never give up my Intuitions they've been the best combo of performance fit and warmth.

[@Oldwiseguy-59]

@ oddly been also skiing since 1964 and found that the intuition were the warmest last 10 years. I switched to the new Rossignol Vizion 120 for ease of entry and will wait to see how the liner performs in my East coast (read cold) skiing, then decide what to do with liners next year if anything.

[@rickden8362]

@@Oldwiseguy-59 Are you saying there's a significance performance gap with Intuition powerwrap liners?

[@Oldwiseguy-59]

@@rickden8362 nope, loved my intuition that I had in old boots. Moved to a different boot so will see how that liner goes before making any changes.

[@rickden8362]

@@Oldwiseguy-59 Did you have the powerwrap in your old boot?

[@nathantoney.1501]

Prior to injection, would a custom footbed be worth having in the liner first? No opinion, just curious

[@Starthaus]

Yes it would be weird to get a custom liner without a custom footbed, but we're not your mom.

[@Pgd10020]

Is Greg a racer?

[@Starthaus]

Gregg has a very narrow foot and is more suited to a race boot because of the last. Otherwise, no he's not a racer! (Except on mountain bikes)

[@seb.h.1905]

i wish we had that for snowboarding, i have an exceptionnally complicated foot, been hell to find an okay boot :'(

[@floz9718]

Why do people always use these foam pads (attached to the foot in this case) to artificially make more room in the liner (before heating or foam being injected in this case)? Isn't that completely counterproductive? The concept of a custom molded liner is that it shapes to your foot as close as possible so you shouldn't need to create even more space (air pockets) around the foot in some problem areas. I do not ski, I snowboard so I understand that the requirements of a ski boot are quite different than the ones of a snowboard boot but ime, any room inside the liner is bad, you want the fit to be as tight as possible to your foot without creating discomfort (= something pushing into your foot) - which is exactly what can be achieved with a custom molded liner. These additional air pockets, created by the foam pieces, prevent that from happening and will most likely just create problems down the line when the liner breaks in, creating a more sluggish fit, which in turn creates the need to buckle the shell down more again, which can create discomfort again. It can also reduce performance from the get go because the fit is looser that way.

[@Starthaus]

The end result is not a void of space but a lessening of pressure. Bony prominences on the foot have no give and can be quite tender, so creating space during the foaming process allows for the liner and boot interface to just touch without unnecessary pressure. All the performance is still there with the rest of the foot transferring energy through to the ski and the pads are lessening hot spots.

[@bergrud]

Nope. Actually did it yeasterday on some shift apex boots. Was sceptic. And they Are still painfull af. Kind of feel like i was taken for a ride. And will still need the shells blocked. Thats the only way for perfect fit.

[@redsock4843]

The custom liners from the Dalbello DRS WC are very thin-walled. The idea behind this is quite obvious: a liner with the lowest possible material thickness will retain its original wall thickness for a very long time. A thicker and therefore more comfortable liner may fit well at the beginning but will then lose wall thickness much more quickly over time, with the result that the shell then feels too big and the foot begins to slip and wobble in the shoe. The foam liner used in the clip above looks much bigger than the original liner at first glance. And this has to be the case, otherwise you wouldn't be able to inject additional foam. Accordingly, the shell must of course be chosen much bigger than if the original liner were used so that you can even get into the shoe with the more voluminous foamed liner. The boot fitter is therefore using a shell that is actually much too big for the customer's foot. This can also be seen from the fact that he does not make any adjustments to the shell itself (at least that is not mentioned in the clip). The DRS WC is so narrow with a last of 93 mm at Mondopoint 26 / 26.5 that very few men and perhaps only a few women would be able to wear the original shell in the exact length that suits them without immediately experiencing massive pain. The wall thickness of the shell is significantly thicker than that of a normal ski boot, so that appropriate modifications, such as grinding, widening or bulging, are possible. This boot is a blank in terms of its shell and it is assumed that the shell is always individually adjusted to the athlete's foot. In combination with the very thin-walled original liner, you get an optimal fit, pain-free but with the highest possible directness in terms of delay-free and undamped power transmission. So you step into a shell that is far too big, which has not been processed in the way that this class of shoes should be (plug boots), just to have a comfortable and pain-free feeling for a relatively few days of skiing. But because the foam is foam and not reinforced concrete, it will soon give way and lose volume and you will have to buy a new, foamed liner, because you will of course have no grip in the shell that is far too big with a non-foamed race liner. Even the very thin-walled original liner is so compressed after long use that the shell, which originally fit perfectly, feels too big. With my Dalbello WRC, however, this only happened after four seasons and therefore about 360 days of skiing, and that is already significantly longer than the total lifespan of plug boots is designed for, and in the meantime the long-tortured shell has also given up the ghost. Perhaps not all the details are disclosed in the video above and I am happy to be corrected and educated if someone here has the appropriate arguments. My new Dalbello DRS WC M (Flex 150) are already waiting in the room next door, the shell was adjusted by the boot fitter, but only after the sole and shaft canting and the installation of the lifter plates, because this of course changed the position of the foot in the shell. With the very high-quality original liners from Dalbello these things are as comfortable as slippers, although the foot could only move in the shoe if bones were to break.

[@Starthaus]

Ummm, short answer- This video is not about Dalbello, or plug boots, or making plug boots more comfortable. Generally speaking, we would not put a racer in a custom foamed liner unless they insisted. Also, that shell is very much not stock and has been modified prior to the foamed liner. And you are correct, custom foam liners will not last as long as other options out there!

[@redsock4843]

@@Starthaus This makes a little more sense to me at least. So, you have an athlete with a very narrow foot and thin lower leg, who obviously wouldn't find optimal support even in a tight race boot shell with the liner provided for it. The shell is not adjusted to the foot but to the foam liner, which is possible with a race boot due to the wall thickness, and then in a second step the liner is foamed to give it the optimal fit and fills all the places with foam that would have been too wide or too big with the normal liner. You get a pretty good hold in the shoe for a while, but you have to accept that you'll need a new foam liner again relatively soon if you don't want to lose this good hold. Or can a foam liner be foamed several times? That would of course be a very economical and functional solution. But I suspect that this isn't possible and so the whole thing seems to me to be very labor-intensive and probably quite expensive.

[@leighdexter7493]

@@redsock4843 You got it. And no, once foamed it's set and is what it is forever. Can't be remolded like thermal foam or re-corked like ZipFit. Re the economics, this Mimic liner is $415, foaming and install included- in the long run when considering the durability, it's not really that economical but the reward is a short term perfect fit with no break-in. For some customers, that's exactly what they want! Thanks for the comments Redsock, and happy slkiiing!

[@redsock4843]

@@leighdexter7493 👍🎿😎

[@gallardoo9]

over the last 50 years ive had so many different boots, hard foam flexible foam air bladders combinations of both and this looks even worse then any of the old ones I have owned seems a bit cheap those stick on pads vs full foam fit.. just my 2c

[@Starthaus]

Not sure I follow. The stick on pads are to address hot spots, then they are thrown away after the foaming. We get great feedback on the Sidas and Atomic foam kits!

[@virus56777]

To bad they don’t make flex on comps. Anymore.

[@Starthaus]

You can thank the private equity firms trying buying up all the the ski brands for finally killing off Flexon/Full Tilt.

[@gian-andreamayer2093]

Der hat jetzt von Anfang beim abkleben vom Fuß bis zum Schluss ALLES falsch gemacht. Der kann man mal eine Schulung bei mir machen, das würde ich Ihm empfehlen. Und wenn das die Lieferanten so gezeigt haben, dann haben die auch keine Ahnung von Schäumen.

[@Starthaus]

We'd love to hear how an entire industry from multiple disparate brands have this wrong. Drop us a line- [e-mail]