Short Seasons Are Killing TV

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Eight episode seasons are everywhere. The days of 22 episode seasons are long gone, and even 13 feels like a dream. So what happened? And why is an older version of TV worth defending? I go into it all here.
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[@narrator69]

When a second season doesn't come out for more then a year that just destroys a shows momentum.

[@alexworm1707]

Agreed, and thats why i dont watch new series anymore. I want to watch the last of us, but decided to wait. Sandman as well amd that shit still doesn't have a season 2. Watched witcher season 1 then 2 and then i said fuck it, which im glad i did, since that shit is getting destroyed and rushed.

[@SoapNugget]

​@@alexworm1707 Eh, TLOU takes a time jump for Part II, so the momentum is supposed to slow down. But honestly, just play the game.

[@plothole181]

I was thinking about this problem earlier and realized that this is really the fault of the binge release format. When shows were being released week to week (more or less as they were being made) the networks could usually tell before the first season even finished whether they were going to want a season two and the writers would know to start working on scripts for the new season before the old one was finished filming and they would have scripts to film after a short break, but with binge release the show was probably filmed in its entirety six months to a year before a single episode aired and the network/streaming service doesn't know whether its successful until a little while after that and then they take a few weeks to a couple months deciding if it was successful ENOUGH (by whatever mysterious metric) and only then do they do second season order and only then can work begin in earnest on a second season. Granted, there is the rare show that gets multiple seasons greenlit at once and I don't know what their excuse is (probably over reliance on CG), but it is more common these days for shows to get re-upped after the metrics have come in.

[@alexworm1707]

@@SoapNugget ive played the 1st already, and love it, the second i didn't get to it yet, waiting a good bargain lmao

[@Eric007M]

I lose interest and just don’t watch.

[@justinriley]

The problem is less that seasons of tv are too short. Rather, it's that too many feel like elongated movies.

[@14loosecannon]

This is a big problem with the Marvel Disney+ shows, most of them are essentially stretched out movies and don't have anywhere near enough plot to carry a whole TV season

[@Jumpboy5100]

I agree. It feels like all these shows should have been 4 episodes or a movie instead of 8 drawn out episodes. Me and my GF joke that every other episode of an 8 episode season is optional. Episode 2,5, and 7 are boring.

[@fortynights1513]

Could this be a byproduct of mid-budget movies being viewed less favorably? Ergo: If some of these were film ideas, could they have been released as films 10-15 years ago?

[@blakeconroy2187]

Anytime you watch a miniseries that starts off strong, but begins to drag after the third or fourth episode, you can pretty much guarantee that the series was originally written as a movie until a streaming service got ahold of it. Streaming services depend on you to keep watching for as many hours as possible because the less you watch, the more likely you are to cancel. Makes sense for everything to be a 8-12 hour miniseries rather than a 95 minute film.

[@yami122]

@@14loosecannon you could literally for some of those shows watch only the first and the last episode due to everything in between being useless bloat that Adds nothing to the story

[@faithfullyfaithless]

I think one of the (many many) reasons why Avatar The Last Airbender is so beloved is how it struck a perfect balance between its episodic "town of the week" structure and overarching "fate of the world" story

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Absolutely!

[@quinnholleman1547]

It also did "filler" like he talked about right because (other than a few examples), while they didn't push the plot forward, they explored the characters and world that helped make the experience as a whole better by getting the viewer more invested

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@quinnholleman1547I'd argue the show only really had 1 true filler episode "The Great Divide", which was so insignificant they completely skipped over it in the episode with the play.

[@quinnholleman1547]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I'd say "The Headband" and "The Painted Lady" also qualified as filler because they really didn't do anything for the plot, characters, or worldbuilding

[@MadeByIsmael]

The headband showed what life is like in the fire nation. It showed the propaganda being taught in the schools. The teachers claims that the airnomads had an army and when aang tries to tell her shes wrong shes like "theres no way you would know more than hour textbooks". Also in the headband, dancing is outlawed. As we see in the firebending masters episode, the original form of firebending is more dance like. The firebation surpressed the original form of firebending for a style more based on range and anger, similar to what zuko was using for the first two seasons. Wouldnt call that episode filler -ismael, your internet avatar historian @@quinnholleman1547

[@jayward8237]

By the time the new season comes out you have completely forgotten the previous seasons. You have to go back to remember what happened.

[@samahsaadi839]

I had to start watching recaps of the previous seasons on youtube for a lot of shows. Taking over a year between seasons is ridiculous.

[@ellengill360]

And it feels like time not well spent.

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

Only if you have tiktok brainrot.

[@sirBrouwer]

that by it self is not always a problem if the already airing seasons are good enough to have a few reruns. It also helped for those who missed the first airing of a episode to have a chance to see it again. As a lot older for TV made shows had to take in consideration that you are not always home when it airs. That did help if the series where more episodic in the basic as you could just miss a episode and still hook on again. But still don't wait so long that the original cast you used changed to much (in people or in age)

[@greyLeicester]

Series are now striving for excellent cinematography and overall quality, which takes a lot of time to fund, film, produce and edit... hence the long wait between seasons... 😢😢

[@williamreynolds423]

100% agree with the point about filler episodes. Some of the best episodes of old television would technically be considered filler episodes.

[@johnpatz8395]

I’ve got no issue with some “filler” episodes, and having several in a 20 episode season isn’t an issue, having 2-4 in 8-10 episodes is a big problem

[@michaelreynolds5773]

Been saying for many years: a movie is a date; a TV show is a relationship. TV execs are behaving like bad boyfriends.

[@LimeyLassen]

That's funny.

[@naomichadwick4223]

Or girlfriends

[@aascottie]

@@naomichadwick4223Nah I’m pretty confident they’re mostly men, don’t even need to look it up.

[@noobmasterruben5167]

Youre right, dude. I feel like nowadays, my family has watched Suits, B99 and Lucifer more than Stranger things because of those longer formats and because it feels like a relationship

[@TheFourthWinchester]

@@noobmasterruben5167 Stranger Things is one of the few great TV shows to come out of streaming. Bad example when they literally have movie length episodes.

[@oldman5247]

Short seasons of television used to be called miniseries.

[@nikidelvalle]

Actually no they weren't. A "mini" or limited series is a show created with intentionally one season with one story that ends withing a specific number of episodes.

[@chicagopete]

Awesome video. Great points. I always thought the opposite of the videos theory but man ya got me.

[@chrisjfox8715]

@@nikidelvalle some of my favorite modern day shows are intentionally only one season. Dopesick comes to mind

[@nikidelvalle]

@@chrisjfox8715 I agree, I also think limited series can be great :D

[@TonySpike]

A mini series is only 3 - 4 episodes long my dude Also no, in the uk a series is rarely over 8 -10 episodes, so no ....this is not universal

[@justinriley]

I miss when 10-13 episodes was the bare minimum length for a season of tv.

[@Markunator]

That wasn’t ever really the case for HBO, though…

[@justinriley]

@@Markunator Even with Oz having 8 episodes a season (except for S4), it never felt like a long drawn out movie.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

​@@MarkunatorOz was 8 but most of the others were 12 or 13

[@kamialexis4831]

Exactly . I even miss the 22-episode ordered productions

[@justinriley]

@@kamialexis4831 Here here

[@quintusaquila34]

To add to the why so many older shows are seeing massive waves of rising interest is that their episodic natures allow people too have a more laid back viewing experience. They aren't as time and attention consuming as other shows with more intricate plots. You can throw the show on and casually watch it while doing work or other miscellaneous tasks, and you don't miss much (due to typically being lowstakes save for the big event episodes). They also are comforting in a way, because despite being episodic (and sometimes formulaic) story wise you get to spend much more time with characters you like than you do on a series with just 8eps.

[@87isgeenpriemgetal]

It is more relaxing watching a show where each episode has a real ending, instead of ending with a cliffhanger so I have to resist the urge of having to watch the next episode immediately. Having a real ending makes the watching experience more satisfying to me.

[@carolitoffana]

I'm currently watching Bones, it's 12 season and I feel so happy when I remember that there's a lot of episodes still to come, I genuinely like so much the characters that I feel sad when they leave, current shows ends before I get to learn everyone's name

[@joannamarieart]

This is the biggest factor for me in my viewing habits. Many newer shows and even movies look interesting to me, but the mental energy I have to invest in them is just too exhausting for an end of the night casual watch while eating dinner.

[@sirBrouwer]

@@87isgeenpriemgetal A good oldd school version in this is the still reruns of shows like the A - Team of Knight Rider. every episode worked on it's own. and it does not really matter if you first see season 2 episode 6 and then jump back the next week to season 1 episode 3

[@nobleherring3059]

That's a big part of what repels me from so much modern visual media in general. The expectation of commitment. That expectation that I'm going to be A Fan, and be dedicated to keeping with the whole thing and consuming all the related media and it's just like Dude I already have hobbies. Piss off.

[@ErmenBlankenberg]

Another frustrating line of thinking brought forward by contemporary big-budget shows is that people equate "looking cinematic" with "shots with big CGI things in them" and not with good blocking, staging and composition which lots of these big-budget shows visibly lack.

[@mustang8206]

I miss when episodes were actually episodic instead of just being 1 hour of what's essentially an 8 hour movie

[@malachilining2730]

So stranger things season 4 😂 they should've stuck with the old 4 act style of shoes that had commercial breaks because they have no clue of pacing

[@dm2060]

How would you like to see an 8 hour movie? Or should writers limit their creativity to 1 - 3 hours?

[@3ericw]

I like video games a lot and just like TV, both drifted to become more like movies. It's like movies were more critically regarded than games or TV so the people who made them started to model film

[@knilschbromen7147]

​@@dm2060 the lord of the rings trilogy is about nine hours long. Even twelve when you watch the extended editions. There are other examples like Star Wars, or the Nolan Batman movies. There is a format for such story telling, it can be done successfully.

[@dm2060]

@@knilschbromen7147 So you're willing to break a super long story down into 3 parts but not 9?

[@justsomeguywholovesberserk6375]

I mean mf Invincible is the prime example of that, they literally had 3 years to make a season and they literally just gave us the first half and the second half came after *4 MONTHS OF WAITING*

[@themoviemaniac_]

great point

[@maxpops8427]

To be fair Invincible episodes are twice as long as normal shows

[@stevenbobbybills]

​@@maxpops8427 Not really. Most shows these days have shifted to 40 to 60 minute episodes.

[@lukedebruijn1002]

prime example 💀

[@maxpops8427]

@@stevenbobbybills yes but Invincible is animated and animation takes alot of work

[@DParkerNunya]

The thing is, there is a balance that can be reached. Shows like Psych and Leverage are much more episodic than they are serialized, but they will still do both. Characters can recall and talk about things from previous episodes while the season has no real throughline.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Ah, I loved 'Leverage' and I couldn't agree more!

[@69johndz]

That's so funny. Me and my family just re-watched Psych...and now we are re-watching Leverage. Like minds......

[@sirBrouwer]

you had that all the way back the shows like the A team. As they where made in a time that you only could watch it on tv. it had to wok whenever it aired. If you would mis a episode it should still work when you hook back on. With a bit luck if it was a somewhat important plot point for a season they will re air it later but for now just go allong.

[@ellemonsters]

Leverage is probably my favorite series of all time, and I was very happy to get more of it with Leverage Redemption but it seems like even they're going down the shortening seasons path. Season 1 was 16 episodes while season 2 was only 12, I believe, and I think we'll be lucky to even get 10 episodes for season 3.

[@josiahferrell5022]

For me, it is The Mentalist. Perfect balance of the best of episodic, comforting, familiar repetition that flows perfectly into the occasional reminder of the overall story.

[@GLC48]

I remember watching a Clone Wars review video where the guy said that the show was “60%” filler, even though the Clone Wars is an anthology show.

[@albertoadolfolealroman8614]

Cosmonaut? Yeah, his takes can be pretty wild (still like him lol)

[@chrisjsewell]

Bojack horseman was amazing in having a long form narrative but also great experimental self-contained episodes 🐴

[@twincitiestara]

It took me watching beyond a full season to recognize why so many people loved that show so hard. Once it "grew the beard" it became one of the best shows on TV. I should go back and watch that first season again, because maybe I'll enjoy it more now that I know what it evolves into.

[@johnchedsey1306]

And that show would not last more than a season before getting canceled if it were coming out in 2024. Thankfully it appeared in a time when Netflix allowed for some shows to grow over time. Bojack is one of the best things ever put onto TV.

[@seraby7151]

@@johnchedsey1306 animated shows are cheaper to make that's why they tend to get more leeway, anime producers makes more money in netflix now than just releasing it in japan local tv.

[@Attmay]

@@twincitiestara and then they broke the punch bowl by killing off Sarah Lynn.

[@kevincoleman2092]

I think your point on individual episode arcs is so on point. One thing I've noticed over the past few years is that I can barely ever name a favorite single episode, even from shows I like. It's hard to even remember what happens in each individual episode.

[@FrumiousMing8]

This is so true and the binge model of releasing all episodes at once compounds this issue, imo.

[@bjiornbjiorn]

Subspace Rhapsody! Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is your friend. In all seriousness though you're right and it gets particularly annoying when they bungle the ending of a show. It's the whole "that episode was great but I have to remember that 35% of runtime was wasted because it never went anywhere" problem.

[@douglaswolfen7820]

I've lost count of the number of times I've managed to slip from one episode into the next _without even noticing,_ while binging shows. It's actually infuriating Sometimes I'll say to myself "I'll stop after this episode, there can't be long left". And then when I check? It turns out that the episode already finished and I'm ten minutes into the next one Where was the ending? Where was the resolution? What was the _point_ of that episode? It's so unsatisfying

[@Ruinwyn]

I find it so frustrating. I want to be entertained for 30-60 minutes and that is often the amount of time I can trivially spend focused on one thing. I can find time for couple of series with that episode length every week. But it requires the episodes to be entertaining on their own. And that missing one, won't cause me problems. I'm getting fatigued by big stories. When everything is a mystery, or conspiracy, or world ending event, they become mundane.

[@IcarusTyler]

Right? They all blend into each other. I think I noticed in Orange is the new Black after some episodes where I wasn't really sure what the point was. What was this episode about? Can I tell a friend? A bunch of stuff happened that advanced some season-long plots, but nothing cohered in that one chunk

[@sawspearenjoyer]

that one simpsons quote for that cowboy show episode “it lasted only one year but we did 360 episodes”

[@stellviahohenheim]

Yeah they used to just whipping the crew members to work all the time and not see their family

[@eph6640]

Tv is a more intimate medium, and having to wait two or three years for 8 or 10 episodes destroys that intimacy

[@kellymoses8566]

There is something really wrong when they can only make 6 to 8 episodes every TWO FREAKING YEARS.

[@ladyvignette]

Millennial here. I remember back when I had 2/3 shows every night to watch on network television. A lot of them were on the CW. Veronica Mars. Buffy, Angel, Smallville, Supernatural, Gossip Girl, The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, Stargate, Law & Order, The X-Files, etc. I enjoyed it. I don't enjoy waiting 2-3 years between seasons of Stranger Things or Wednesday, or taking a chance on a short series that never gets renewed. I'm considering canceling streaming and just rewatching my collection of TV-on-Blu-Ray/DVD and/or investing in more of them. (We just discovered the original MacGyver as a family and boy are those fun!)

[@Rumade]

In the UK, they used to show these on BB2 and it was great. You'd get home from school and it would be an episode of the Simpsons and then either 1 of the star treks, stargate, Buffy, Farscape, or something similar.

[@Matt-cz6ti]

The tradition for short seasons in the UK, especially for sitcoms like Fawlty Towers, is because very often the same person is the sole writer, sole producer, and star

[@username.exenotfound2943]

also john cleese knew or at least didnt risk dragging it all out to the point you were glad it ended also something like mr bean only has like 13 episodes but theres hundreds of funny clips from it

[@ludwigvanbeethoven8448]

That is true (although Fawlty Towers is perhaps in a class of its own as the greatest sitcom of all time famous for only 12 episodes by choice and crafted soley by Cleese and Booth). Other sitcoms of the era the length were more about behind the scenes reasons, it was very much a cost thing. When making Are you being served? David Croft only got one of the seasons commissioned because there was an emergency where they needed to fill a gap and he told the head of the channel he already had the sets and could make it on the cheap in a matter of days. There were roughly eight episodes per season. Allo Allo, also David Croft, started off with 6 episodes per season and then Seaon 5 has 26(!), mainly due to the BBC giving him whatever resources he wanted as the show had become a phenomena. But I'm not sure how relevant the sitcom examples are to drama. I don't think American television had anything genuinely comparable to the British sitcom genre until the 90s. If we look at detective/police shows and the boom in the late 80s, 90s and 2000s, Britain favoured 3 or 4x 1h30m adaptations of novels (Midsomer, Marple, Poirot, Morse) over multi episode original shows like Murder She Wrote, Law and Order etc.

[@JohnDlugosz]

@@ludwigvanbeethoven8448 Before that, _The Honeymooners_ was designed by the writer/star Jackie Gleeson to be one season only.

[@bishbosh4815]

I'm always shocked by how few episodes of classic comedies there are, it always feels like there were more

[@JohnDlugosz]

@@bishbosh4815 That's because they are so dense with quotable moments and memorable gags.

[@BrendanJSmith]

It's honestly a miracle that Andor was given 12 episodes.

[@kkkkaue]

After mandalorian season 3 I didn't watched Andor because of this, but it was because of the bad taste in my mouth caused by Mando. Sopranos is 10 eps by season and to me is perfect

[@TabalugaDragon]

I wish it wasn't. The same story could have been told in 6-8 episodes. Almost nothing is happenign each episode. Instead of every episode having its own, separate story that plays the part in the bigger story, each episode is a tiny part of the main story stretched by endless, empty dialogues that don't move the story anywhere. If writers of Andor wrote Breaking Bad, Walt would only start cooking by the end of the season.

[@ytterbius2900]

​@@TabalugaDragon I feel like we did not watch the same _Andor_ lol

[@jonahudovc1009]

@@TabalugaDragon not all scenes are required to move the narrative forward. Character interactions and dialogue were one of the best parts of andor.

[@TabalugaDragon]

@@ytterbius2900 I'm afraid we did.

[@mechajay3358]

Not all TV seasons can be too long, but they also equally can't all be too short.

[@CLDJ227]

Yeah I've always thought that a show should have however many episodes needed for its story 🤔. I.E. if you have a story that requires 20 something episode then go for it. However, if the story clearly only 8 at the most then that's all well fine and good too 🤔.

[@thanosamazing72]

@@CLDJ227best comment tbh Totally agree

[@rayanvij3457]

@@CLDJ227 Well the point made in the video is that if your show only needs like 4 to 6 episodes you are better off making it a movie, as with so few episodes you are unable to take full advantage of the benefits tv provides.

[@ssshar2176]

If you are going to give us a 6-10 episode season, it should not take 2 years. Looking at you Bridgerton with very basic CGI and it was renewed for 4 seasons right from the start!!!!!

[@CappyLarou]

Tv used to be like your neighbor, now it's like your friend from out of town.

[@michaelpopely4408]

British TV has pretty much always had a trend to do 6 episodes with them being 30 minutes for comedy’s and between 45-60 minutes for drama’s and other shows

[@davidchristie6003]

And it has never felt too short to me. Being left wanting more is not a bad thing if you are still satisfied

[@just_delightful]

​@@davidchristie6003yea, bad tv is the problem, not season length.

[@ssshar2176]

Did they take years between seasons?

[@dunnowy123]

It's an American thing lol, Brits see 10 episodes and think that's long

[@bjiornbjiorn]

​@@ssshar2176 Generally no, the trend used to be closer to one series a year. I might be forgetting something earlier but the first one to have noticeably obnoxious gaps in its production was probably Sherlock (or maybe Luther). Sherlock certainly got more flak because, although each episode was around 90 minutes long, there were only 3 episodes per series.

[@fabvz5436]

Rewatching Supernatural now is a prime example. The 24 episodes a season with several of them a totally different self contained story is something else from what we have now

[@namenloss730]

I still feel like they dropped the ball after season 5. They had a good pace of episodic + long arc until then. Then season 6 just goes weird The leviathan season basically have no long arc (I think the leviathans are in 4 episodes out of 22)

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@namenloss730I agree. That was a good place to end it. The finale they went with really sucked. Whole show was dragged out for far too long.

[@entreprenerd1963]

@@namenloss730 - change of plan and showrunner. Eric Kripke had a plan for five seasons, then had to change his season 5 ending to allow a longer-lasting show for someone else to run.

[@namenloss730]

@@entreprenerd1963 i know, but seasons post Kripke were a bit of a mess

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

And I remember when pro-serial snobs would blast the series for its episodic format!

[@B1gBoyPants]

If you find an old show you like, there may be hundreds of episodes to watch. My wife and I got super into law and order SVU. We can watch a new episode every night and never run out of em

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Is that show still going?

[@B1gBoyPants]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp yeah, but we haven’t even gotten close to the modern episodes yet.

[@zunaidparker]

Law & Order, Law & Order Criminal Intent, Law & Order SVU, CSI CSI Miami, CSI New York, CSI Cyber, Sherlock, Elementary, Castle, The Rookie, Lucifer, heck even Columbo and Murder She Wrote, ... There are SO many police and detective procedurals that you could never ever run out of episodes to watch. It's the genre that just keeps on giving. And let's give credit to the OG of all detectives, the great Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[@thebajonqueen]

I've been watching law & order svu for 20 years! I never get tired of it! It's great! 👏🏻

[@loganmedia4401]

I once enjoyed Law & Order, including SVU, but wouldn't be able to stand it today. The cops are just such nasty, sleazy characters.

[@whom382]

Everybody on the Internet used to say "shorter seasons are better" though I never agreed. Well, the Leopards Ate Their Face.

[@DerrickSylvesterJamesJr]

no one wanted shorter seasons, they wanted less filler.

[@arcoirislagallinacanibal]

@@DerrickSylvesterJamesJr western tv doesn't have filler

[@DerrickSylvesterJamesJr]

@@arcoirislagallinacanibal yes we do

[@felicitasjuarez]

I think that is the reason why Agents of Shield has a larger place in my heart than Daredevil. I LOVE Daredevil, but I spend years and years with Agents Of Shield and the character progression is insane. What's even more, Agents had AMAZING episodes where they experimented and change tone or formula and played with our expectations of the characters. I remember exactly the episode's names (as opposed to Daredevil, where I can't single out any episode on it's own merit) and I still go back and rewatch them.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

And the show got better every season. Season 4 of Agents of Shield tackled so many different things and they were able to nail them. They did a better job of a secret invasion with the LMDs than the Secret Invasion show. That show was so good!

[@felicitasjuarez]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Another reason to give them time and let series find their footing

[@CharlesWorkPPL]

Agents of Shield doesn't get nearly enough respect for what it did.

[@twincitiestara]

Not every episode was a gem, but almost the entire cast was so very, very pretty that I didn't mind. Move over Mulder & Scully, it's Fitz & Simmons!

[@catalandustin51]

Season 4 is my favorite of the show. Then I'd be Season 7 where the said "F" it and just have fun with the final season

[@CinYinGo]

Yes, and making us wait 2-3 years for said seasons.

[@m1k3y48]

We got season 2 of HOTD, a bit happened, and now we wait 3 more years. Yay? These long waits are getting out of hand.

[@ssshar2176]

That’s my biggest gripe more than anything

[@stellviahohenheim]

Booohoo i don't have anything new to watch boohoo imo there's enough content in the world to last you several ilfetimes already

[@CinYinGo]

@@stellviahohenheim 💛

[@lpnp9477]

@@m1k3y48 and it was such a bad season good Good. It'd be okay if season 3 were coming later this year but it's not. So we're left with unresolved unsatisfying plotlines for five years. It's like they learned nothing from Game of Thrones.

[@Elite-0Zero]

Someone at work has started watching Lost from the start and said they were shocked at how much happened in every episode. And that's Lost they're talking about - a series where famously nothing got resolved week to week!

[@no_nameyouknow]

The first few seasons had plenty of resolutions, always there were more questions and eventually the questions outpaced the answers but the early seasons were peak network TV. There is a reason that show was a national phenomenon.

[@PatstarDeluxe]

@@no_nameyouknow INTERnational phenomenon! (But one I'll never watch again)

[@LimeyLassen]

Overall Lost is middling (it's basically a prestige soap opera) but most of the self-contained stories hold up really well.

[@cosmiceyness]

I’m tired of people saying Lost was bad

[@JOEYgrim]

The wife started watching Lost for the first time last night aha Said I'd never rewatch but have got sucked back into the first few episodes

[@ravenjmain]

The irony that when I was binging supernatural, I would roll my eyes whenever I found a “filler” episode. But now I’d take shows like that over the Disney short film shows any day.

[@nicolajohnson1887]

Yeah I agree and im currently rewatching supernatural

[@ravenjmain]

@@nicolajohnson1887 I think I stopped on season 12. I’ll probably finish watching the rest one day lol

[@nicolajohnson1887]

@@ravenjmain I'd stopped at 9 then picked it back up during covid.

[@TechySpeaking]

Every show nowadays isn't a TV show, it's a miniseries that should have been a movie that **might** return for a second season. Combine that with dumping all episodes at the same time, and Netflix knows you're going to immediately go to the next episode, you lose all episodicness.

[@sealionstudios8597]

My rule when it comes to TV is that (unless it's a really, REALLY well written show), 13 episodes, or at the very least 10, is the minimum that a season needs. Anything less than that is NOT a season of TV, it's a miniseries.

[@marcmarc1967]

Even worse, it's just a movie split into 6 episodes. There is no contained structure to the episode. It just cuts off at the end of a scene and picks up where it left off.

[@loganmedia4401]

@@marcmarc1967 Ongoing series have usually ended on a cliffhanger. That's not new.

[@loganmedia4401]

It's only a miniseries if it tells a complete story then ends.

[@marcmarc1967]

@@loganmedia4401 The main point of my comment was when I said "no contained structure to the episode". You can have all the cliffhangers you want, but the episode itself has to tell a complete story on it's own, separate from the "cliffhanger". Burn Notice was great at this.

[@LoveK1]

@@marcmarc1967Agreed!

[@jessrl8025]

I HATE this trend of 8 episode seasons with 2 years between each season. How do we get rid of this?

[@petermgruhn]

Stop calling it a "season" and then you won't expect it to behave like the seasons.

[@username.exenotfound2943]

stop watching it only way theyll listen however this has become the new normal so cant expect it to change now since if you "rush " them they'll just serve slop and go"well sorry lads you shouldn't have bullied us into releasing it early" which causes the bootlickers to say "i dont care how long it takes so long as its good" even if they are taking the piss

[@MrShikaga]

@@petermgruhn but they are seasons. With something like American Horror Story, you could call each season a series, and say “I am done” at the end whenever you want. But you can’t get to the end of something like say Severance and say “Well that was fun”. The story is barely started, let alone finished. It is a season, and changing what you are calling it isn’t going to make it more satisfying.

[@david2b4u]

Stop watching it until the whole series is released. A lot of shows are now not only less than 10 episodes but some even double down and only release HALF the season each year it’s getting ridiculous tbh

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@david2b4utrue

[@funkythor6457]

It’s even worse for animated shows, back then they were given 20-30 episodes. Now we get less than 10, probably because of budget, lay offs, crunch, and other current issues with entertainment atm

[@username.exenotfound2943]

vox machina was good, made 12 eps each season and released 3 per week and came out every January for 1 and 2(until season 3 but hey writers strike) but i do miss something like justice league but hey they can do this because we the consumers allow them to get away with it

[@username.exenotfound2943]

look at invincible season 2, it took 2 years to make and if you had seen anyway anime recently youll see its a bit poor(its fine for me but anyone whos seen lots of anime think its outright bad anmation wise) and they split the season up

[@SomeRPGFan]

To be honest though, most of these episodes were probably filler. Look at something like Sailor Moon where out of the 30 or so episodes per season, 20 or more could have easily been cut without the main plot suffering in any way.

[@username.exenotfound2943]

@@SomeRPGFan the filler was good though in avatar helped broaden the world and characters which would pay off later on and things that happened in filler could return something like person of interest, the best episodes were the "filler"

[@Void-pkm]

@@username.exenotfound2943 none of that shit is filler bro, if it happens in the cannon of the story its not filler, we use it anime because of long running series like one piece and naruto where they have actual filler that does not happen in the cannon of the story

[@ScottKorin]

So this is where I think Andor makes a lot of sense: twelve episodes, three archs. There is the overarching theme for the show, but you get thee stories that you can focus on.

[@twincitiestara]

The shift was a little jarring though. Each "arch" was abruptly abandoned the moment it had its episodes. There were times when I had to stop and ask myself if I was sure I was still following the same show. Still a pretty good show, but maybe 3 long straight-to-streaming movies would have been better?

[@sonny423]

​@@twincitiestara a lot of the arcs build on each other though. Cassian killing the guards in the first episode brings increased empire oversight to his home planet that lasts throughout the season. All the characters converge at the funeral in the final episode because their unique goals and plotlines have brought them there. the through-lines between arcs are subtle but they are there. I really liked the format and hope that season 2 is similar!

[@NinjaPieceLOL]

Agreed. I think having multiple story arcs per season is a great balance between episodic and serialization. Agents of Shield did something similar. Season 4 was broken into 3 story arcs. They all lead into one another culminating into an epic season finale.

[@inkermoy]

it also depends on if you give a darn about Andor as a character or not.

[@NinjaPieceLOL]

@@inkermoy Before watching the show, I didn't care about him at all. I could barely remember who he was. I wondered why he needed his own show. After watching the show, they convinced me. He's a great character.

[@Azulagirlboss]

The two year gap between seasons is making me lose interest and forget all the subplots. Shows like Bridgerton, Euphoria, The Boys come to mind.

[@Rgdarkchild]

This its really the subplots that take a major hit at some points i just stop watching shows because I don’t even remember what’s happening. And I don’t have the time to go back and watch the whole thing.

[@badbartigan8799]

Tv and streaming providers have convinced me to not even bother with a new show until it has 2-3 seasons done without a sudden cancellation that leaves stories unfinished. There are shows like that out there, but I’m no longer sitting through bad shows that happen to be timeslotted between two other shows I actually like. I now have the luxury to pick what and when I watch.

[@DudeDude-ou8mw]

I'm pretty sure that's how everybody loves Raymond and Seinfeld got watched. Not because anyone actually wanted to watch them, but because there was nothing else to watch during the times they were slotted.

[@wemdoe]

I’m not a big tv person, but I do remember watching Star Trek The Next Generation religiously as a kid. Captain Picard was my hero. It felt like the show raised interesting questions, while also being populated by a lot of characters you care about.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I really live the different sci-fi concepts they explore. It's my favorite Star Trek series.

[@sangeetgharai8171]

As an Indian, it's so surprising to know that Suits was actually not a big hit in the USA at the time of its release. It was absolutely HUGE in India, especially among college going students for the first 4-5 seasons

[@richarddoan9172]

Nobody knew about it when it was on the USA network. Netflix was the first time people saw it, and they were instantly addicted. Suck it, Captain Midnight.

[@nylohro4091]

The writer's strike also exposed a major problem as well in this new era, that the writers aren't as involved in the shows like writers used to be. Writers rooms are falling apart, they aren't working together or communicating as much or involved on sets.

[@primarybufferpanel9939]

24-episodes seasons might be too long, but a good 16-18 would be great. Also, episodic television is not something to look down on. It's a great way a create new writers. Perhaps we would have better writing now if so many shows weren't "prestige".

[@pravinthokal7629]

This is why I loved Agents of Shield more than anything Disney Plus has created except Loki

[@cstrand73]

When he mentioned “filler” or monster of the week, my mind went straight to X-Files. I loved it for those types of episodes. Flukeman, were-monster, and Tooms are what made the show

[@connor_who]

Like people give Season 10 & 11 hell for the mytharc stuff (probably rightly so) but even then the MOTW episodes of those two seasons are still great! The show wouldn’t be the same without them.

[@moderatecanuck]

Those are the ones who I remember most of the show

[@LakeCoffee]

I miss longer seasons, but mostly I miss the variety we used to have. Yes we have lots of different types of shows now, but today every show tries to be some deep, dark, gritty, deconstructionist, realistic subversion of expectations "prestige TV" show. Gone are the fun simple comfort sitcoms that were all over CBS/ABC/NBC/Fox ect. Gone are the positive humorous USA Network "Blue Sky's" shows like Psych or Burn notice or White Collar. When all you make are shows with 6-8 episode seasons every 1-3 years. The only types of shows you will get are high budget shows that take them selves so serious that they sink or swim on being a #1 rated success the day they are released or they are a complete failure. We need to bring back a healthy mix of the fun, comfy, 30-60 mins episode shows where you can just sit down on the couch and relax and not have to try to follow complex plot lines and just enjoy some fun entertainment. This is also the reason the tv shows on the streaming apps that have the most viewed hours each month are mostly all old shows from the 90s, 2000s, and early 2010s.

[@FrumiousMing8]

I recently did a rewatch of Psych and it's so good. Quality all the way through to the end, imo. I recommend it to people all the time. That and Leverage. I think people sleep on Leverage, it's one of my faves.

[@justjoannak]

Yeah, the decline of sitcoms angers me

[@LakeCoffee]

​@@justjoannak People love to look down on sitcoms as low quality trash tv. But they are often some of the most watched and most popular shows on TV. What we need to bring back is a more balanced mix. Where we have network style episodic 15-23 episode shows with a new season every year. Combined with a mix of less frequent 6-8 episode, 1-3 yrs between seasons prestige tv shows. Basically what we had in the 2000's with network/cable tv shows along with more prestige type tv shows from HBO, Starz, ect. This model can still work in the streaming era. It will require ads to be brought back into the picture as that is really the only way long episodic many season shows can realistically work. But I think the trade off is worth it.

[@senflyer-]

I feel like this has been happening in multiple industries. Movies must be blockbusters. Shows must be prestige. Games must be AAA or games as a service or open world. But while there are indie games and indie film, there's not much indie TV that I know about. I think this is creating gaps in the market that people notice subconsciously but aren't sure why.

[@christianhardtofind6349]

Yes, I agree so much. That's why I'm going back to so many of the shows from the 1990's-2010's that I didn't watch when they were originally on, since the entertainment value is just so much higher than today's content!

[@at0mly]

I feel like there was an era in the early 2000's where TV really hit its stride and shows managed to straddle this divide really well. Stuff like House, Lost, Buffy, DS9, etc all did it really well switching between a monster of the week (or ship in a bottle) episode while also keeping the entire plot arc moving ahead. I think another aspect of this that has been lost is that a lot of these shows were being actively made while they aired and could respond to their audience/feedback much more quickly.

[@loganmedia4401]

Buffy had passed its peak by the second last season. That would make it a 90s series. I don't think they should respond to audience feedback. They should make what they want to make.

[@LoveK1]

@@loganmedia4401they’ve been doing that and look what’s happening.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

100% The WHOLE point of a TV series was that it was the cheaper alternative to films. Which meant it cost less to produce for the people making it, but the viewers got a lot MORE of it as a result. Because they were cheaper and less money could be spent, it meant to make TV good, it had to be well written. As shows have gotten bigger budgets, they got shorter seasons because they're not TV series any more. They're elongated movies. They try to play to the strengths of movies - visual spectacle especially - now and in the instances where what the audience essentially wants is an elongated movie (such as say, a book adaptation that adapts EVERYTHING like in Game of Thrones seasons 1-3) this can work well. But the unique selling point of the TV show is now gone. You're not getting the long form content. You're not getting the episodic novelty. You're not getting the good writing. You're not getting the comfy background noise.

[@Attmay]

And now movies and TV look interchangeable.

[@Shaderaygun]

I'm a late millennial and I hate the "TV as a long movie" format. By the time I get half way through a season, I start getting bored. How much longer is the plot going to drag out? I love shows with self-contained episodes that have a beginning, middle and end with a satisfying resolution. You mentioned Kolchak and it's one of my favorite TV shows. Monster of the Week shows are one of my preferred formats and it sucks how little you see of it now.

[@The-Entelechy]

I hate how the miniseries took over the television format. Anything under 10 episodes where the show requires setup is just not worth it. They may lead with an +hour long episode. But they cheat it out by combining the first two episodes, elongated intros/recaps/credits, and variable episode times. Episodes 4-6 usually end up between 20-30 minutes. Then they just produce it like an 8 hour movie and cut it.

[@RhiKlowho]

The UK manged to master the under 10 episode format. Shows like Happy Valley, and Shetland are great examples. On the streaming side, Good Omen work great as with its limited run time, and while Sandman could have used more episodes in its first season. It was cleanly able to adapt to arcs, and 4 stand alone stories in 11 episodes. Its not an issue with the format it's execution. Not every show needs 13 to 24 episodes a season, not every show needs 10 or less.

[@loganmedia4401]

Has mini-series taken over? That would be a relatively small single set of episodes that constitutes the entire series. Offhand I can't think of any series that typically have a duration of only 20-30 minutes for the middle episodes. Usually the range is more like 45-65 minutes, sometimes with a longer first episode and often a longer final episode. Sure in the old days they could have artificially cut this into a bunch of 40 minute episodes and made the number of episodes higher, but now they don't have to.

[@MrMark1Smith]

I've yet to finish this video but i wanted to say, for the past few months the short season had been bugging me so i've been binging a bunch of old network tv, and as you made this video live i've come to a conclusion so this is serendipity.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Same here

[@Mikhavoc]

"...i'm taking DS9 every time" brother me too, regardless of context

[@erisi236]

Imagine the best Star Trek: TNG episode being stretched out to 10 episodes where nothing happens in episodes 2-9

[@willvgo2950]

Yeah, but Riker finally got to throw rocks like he mentioned back in season 2.

[@rossorat2306]

You mean Picard Season 2

[@boomr334]

'He killed 16 Checkoslovakians. Guy was an interior decorator'. Golden age of episode tv

[@planetgodzilla473]

I think a good example of blending episodic and serialized storytelling is Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated. Every episode has a new monster and mystery but there's usually a side plot that advances a overarching story that builds up to the final few episodes where some crazy stuff happens.

[@justjoannak]

Yeah, I see that

[@joshuadzz]

arrested development s4 but better? lol

[@TiredHighProductions]

Great pick. I think Steven Universe is also great for all of your mentioned reasons. Plus I love the background art and color palette. As the show goes on there's the occasional 2 part episode, sure. But even then the characters continue to move on to the next thing, with the last episode just being a part of the lore now. And yeah, that sort of format helps it keep its episodic monster-of-the-week format mixed with side plots mattering in the grand scheme.

[@jordanread5829]

Burn Notice does that too for the first 5 seasons at least. The A plot is more episodic with Michael helping some random while Sam and Fiona are usually in the B plot, which is the ongoing story. She-ra (2018) has a mix where the early half of a season (or season 2 for the season 2 and 3 split. Thanks netflix) is more episodic while the latter half (or season 3 for the 2/3 split) is more serialized.

[@JM-yg1kz]

​@@TiredHighProductions you mean the show that famously spent most of its time kicking around a village on a beach learning about frybo than address that the world was gonna explode?

[@hellsapoppin9326]

This is the first Captainmidnight video over 20 minutes long 🍿

[@claytonrios1]

Usually in anime we expect 13 to 26 episodes of TV. But in America nowadays we're usually expecting 8 to 10 if we're lucky!

[@CritLoren]

tbf anime is less than half the runtime of a standard american TV show though

[@tubguinace]

@@CritLoren There are plenty of 20 minute per episode American TV shows that are given like 10 episodes a season

[@claytonrios1]

@@tubguinace Just look at Batman Caped Crusader for instance.

[@mustang8206]

Imagine watching anime 💀

[@ProjektTaku]

@@mustang8206 dude, its not like most western shows are actually better, its basically at the same level as anime, so chill out.

[@jacobjames5727]

I don't want shows to go back, I want shows to go everywhere. I am tired of living through the episodic era, then the prestige era, then the serialized era, then the ... I want to go through the tv does everything era. I want 4 episode overarching stories, 15 episode half hour story of the week, and everything in between. Make show types and lengths based on story and character needs, not based on the current cool thing.

[@TBS.tudios]

5:44 I LITERALLY was watching “I love Lucy” as this part of the video played

[@Ryan-ud6vn]

The last season of It’s Always Sunny really stood out to me. Took way too long to come out and was too short. The next season feels forever away, and I feel they could lose a lot of the audience because of it.

[@conorjohn490]

Fun (irrelevant) fact: while playing our main protagonist in The Shield, Michael Chiklis also starred in TWO Fantastic Four movies.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

And he was fantastic in all 3

[@zypalitra8080]

Old English Sci-Fi used to have a budget of 65p and two rolls of double-sided tape and was consistently releasing 26 episodes a year, whilst still being some of the best and most ground-breaking television of all time. Modern television has a £300 million budget and can't do more than 8 or 10 at a push.

[@anthonylulham3473]

I was terrified of a man in a sleeping bag in old doctor who. The sleeping bag was wrapped in tin foil and had some slime and was crawling on the floor but still. Sleeping bag villain was very upsetting to young me.

[@zypalitra8080]

@@anthonylulham3473 Closest thing I can guess that you're talking about is the Wirrn Larva from Ark in Space

[@velemamba260]

I fully agree with this video and it's point. I absolutely loved She-Hulk as a show. I grant you it wasn't the best thing Marvel has produced, but it actually FELT like a TV show. I was so surprised when the Blonsky trial was completed in one episode. I was like "wait, this isn't going to be aseason-long arc? We're just... done with it? And moving onto a new case with a new plot? Amazing!" I think I felt this most with Ms Marvel. That show should have been longer and full of high-school drama, funny hijinks, family drama, all of it. The cast of that show was great and we should have gotten so many more episodes to spend with them.

[@twincitiestara]

I would gladly trade some production value per episode for more episodes of Ms. Marvel balancing her commitments to High School, family, community, and her secret identity. The "main" season arc of that show was NOT what was great about it!

[@velemamba260]

@@twincitiestara Absolutely. If it had been up to me, I think the season should have been building to her brother's wedding. That's what I thought was happening in the beginning. It feels like a natural point to build to. It's a major family event where there can be maximum fallout from the clash between her hero responsibilities and family responsibilities, with lots of drama and emotion, all of it. The second season is where you get into the origin of her powers and the weirder, esoteric stuff, so you can throw her for a loop after she eels like she's got things balanced after the first season. It could even work around The Marvels with only minor tweaks. Have that movie be what introduces the possibility that her powers come from a far stranger place, a setup that can then be explored in season 2.

[@jigokuruler36]

I would argue that all of this are the symptoms of "binge-able" series

[@hellper198]

The real problem is that networks and streaming services, cancel a show the moment it does not immediately significant increase viewer numbers or an increase in subscriptions.

[@Attmay]

That has always been the case. NBC under Brandon Tartikoff and Grant Tinker was the exception, not the rule. Fox canceling a show either too soon, too late, or never is the rule.

[@balldalt]

Yup. Even the successful shows they just cancel after one season if it's not a massive success. It makes no sense because most successful shows do better after their first seasons. You have to give a show room to grow.

[@arcoirislagallinacanibal]

iirc netflix cancels any show that isn't an immediate hit after the first two weeks, which is how Inside job was cancelled even if it got discovered and became on of the most watched series on the platform after a month or so of the release

[@LoveK1]

And I baffled by them doing that because people are working more than they ever have and they release so much content. They don’t even give us a chance to to find and watch then tell our families/friends before they cancelled it. And at that point, what’s the point?!

[@rayanvij3457]

@@Attmay No but from what I've heard shows like Seinfeld took a few seasons to really find its footing. It was the big it hit it is today first season. it took a few seasons to get there. Some of current shows that were canceled after 1 season because they were massive hits after 1 season may have gotten there in the latter seasons.

[@ber23rk]

a random pic of Andre Braugher made me tear up. RIP Captain Holt

[@josephteller9715]

The Short Season is following the model that they took from the UK (where 6-10 episode season in a year was the standard for many years before it came into the American market). The problem is we don't even get that number of episodes each year, it can take several years between each 'season' and that is what is terrible.

[@csigunner5087]

Love the DS9 call out, because DS9 really was at the forefront of the melding of an episodic nature and serialization. TNG and TOS before it were highly episodic, with very few callbacks to previous episodes, but in star trek DS9 really paved the way for a sort of serialization, while keeping the strengths of an episodic nature. With massive arcs like the klingon/cardassian war, Dominion incursion, and later the Dominion war DS9 really made something worth watching in order and coming back to regularly. Whereas most TOS and TNG episodes can be watched out of order, and you don't really lose much for skipping some episodes (or in the case of TNG season 1 lol)

[@Crlarl]

The longest running conflict in _Deep Space 9_ wasn't the Klingon war, the Dominion war, or the Maquis, it was O'Brien's suffering.

[@graceisNERD]

I also very passionately feel that there should be a return of weekly releases. Drop one episode every week for even 8 weeks, and that’s people talking about your show for 2 months. People getting invested and excited to see what happens next. Building anticipation and retaining viewers. People talking about “this week’s episode.” Weekly releases build and sustain fan bases as well. The decline in fandom has been massive, and it’s because new shows are here and gone in moments. No time to grow on people and become a part of their lives. There’s a real lack of staying power.

[@Jon0387]

I don’t mind the ten episodes a season model. I remember being frustrated with all the filler episodes from the 20+ episode seasons back when they aired, especially when they did the clips episodes. What’s killing my interest in tv lately is the 3 year gap between seasons. I don’t think there’s a single show I regularly follow anymore like I did in the 90’s through the 2010’s.

[@danschwab6173]

I think the show that really epitomized what you are conveying here was "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", especially the earlier seasons. Season 3, probably its best, had the overarching narrative of the Mayor and Faith, that served as an umbrella for the serialized story building up each episode to the inevitable climax at the end of the season. But I think one point was missed in your video, and why I illustrate the following examples.... mixed in were "filler" episodes, such as "The Zeppo" and "The Wish", that focused on supporting characters like Xander and Cordelia. Buffy wasn't the focus (and barely even in those episodes), and we got a deep dive into the traits, fears, and motivations of her entourage that weren't typically in the spotlight. Not only did they stand on their own, they were some of the best in the season, added to the lore of the show, and gave us a better understanding of her friends that enhanced their appearances moving forward. And they still maintained the season's pace and overall umbrella story. Look at "Hush" from Season 4. Very much a "filler" episode, but the best of the season and Emmy Nominated. Buffy, outside of the first season, had 22 episodes each year and never felt padded. Force me to sit through "Rings of Power" though, with only an 8 episode run, and I'm bored by episode 2. I too would like to see us get back to shows like "Buffy", or "Battlestar Galactica".... something that has a narrative endgame but at the same time can take some room to tell individual, interesting, structured CHARACTER stories that showcase others in the ensemble and make us care for them. I appreciate this video, and I'm writing this because I agree but just wanted to add a few more thoughts and examples.

[@FrumiousMing8]

Dude Buffy was such a fun show that blended a creature of the week with season long narrative arcs. They could get creative, weird, and even profound with the format. I also loved Battlestar Galactica. I rewatched the series last year and it was fantastic. I remember it was seen as a cringey show for nerds and still holds that reputation a bit. But I'm convinced if it came out after Game of Thrones, people would've loved it. It was an intense genre show with morally grey characters trying to survive in a soul-crushing environment. You can't tell me it wouldn't do numbers if it was released during or after the GoT craze.

[@brianalice]

He mentioned Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine, which more or less had the same mix of serialization and episodic episodes as Buffy, but with even bigger, series-long arcs. Stargate SG1 had the season-arc approach of Buffy, too. For me, that whole period was the sweet spot for TV, especially genre TV.

[@patientallison]

Buffy, Stargate, Gargoyles, Charmed, etc. The mid-season episodes would often have a mostly self-contained plot but they would still push the main story forward in small ways. Like the episodic story leading to the discovery of a mcguffin that can be used for the season arc, or it turns out the episodic story was actually part of the big bad's master plan that will come up later. I regularly find myself going back to late 90s-early 2010s shows for that reason

[@SoapNugget]

Buffy is legitimately my favorite show ever made because of this. Even the filler episodes added to the plot.

[@platform14]

Came here to make the same point and was glad to see others bigging up Buffy. Agree that was such a great approach where each season wrapped up that year's story and still came back with something fresh in September for more! I couldn't imagine the frustration of being a young person now and just never knowing when or if your favourite show will ever be back. How are they supposed to create fandom? No wonder marvel peaked around endgame. Three releases a year like clockwork. Compared to how unreliable TV shows have become, it makes sense that people latched onto this approach (until it overwhelmed people and fell off).

[@NA86737]

The problem is not short seasons it's having seasons that are 16 months to 2 years between. Really what needs to be done is the Freeform/ABC Family model of basically continuous production where they have a season really split up into two seasons relased in 2 parts over a year. You can still have the serialized storytelling in 6-8 episodes but having a production of 12-16 episodes that allows for a 3 month break in production before starting the next production. Also, the creators need to have at least 3-4 seasons sketched out in terms of the plot. The big thing also is the streamers and cable networks need to put their ass on the table and greenlight multiple seasons (similar to what This is Us got after season 2 of basically 3 season renewal).

[@mr.goodboi2780]

This is my exact opinion. They need to get better at making them come out more frequently. If it has to be in 2 parts of 6-8, so be it, and I prefer knowing there's more on the way soon-ish in about 4-6 months than 2 whole years away.

[@justjoannak]

As someone that watched Freeform throughout the 2010s, I absolutely agree that format is awesome and we need to go back to it

[@AndrewAnstrom]

I'd say a big reason why this doesn't work for big budget shows is because the actors are expensive and you cannot keep them confined to that one show year round.

[@NA86737]

@@AndrewAnstrom Hence why TV was never meant to be big budget. I'm tired of the "it's got the size and scope of a movie" TV was never meant to be that size of a production. You can tell an epic story in TV and have it be on a medium to low budget (The Shield, Rescue Me, and Breaking Bad) were all epic and large novel series that were shot at this level even when the budgets got higher in later seasons it was not GOT level budgets which created a ridiculous years between seasons.

[@AndrewAnstrom]

@@NA86737 I was just explaining the reality of the situation... these shows have gotten too expensive for that type of production.

[@slapwagon]

The way modern shows are written I don't think any problems will be solved by having even more episodes of them

[@felicitasjuarez]

I can't believe people are watching Suits more than it's far more superior cousin: White Collar. That was a "case of the week" show that was always so much fun, with an intriguing serialised plot sprinkled in that made it suspensful and so so worth it at the end of each season. I was obsessed with that show.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Does White Collar have a good ending?

[@felicitasjuarez]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Cliché ending. Not that good, not that bad. Good enough to be satisfying tho.

[@erraticonteuse]

White Collar doesn't have a member of the royal family in the cast.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@felicitasjuarez honestly, that's good enough for me

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@erraticonteuse you've sold me. I'll check it out

[@plnkblue]

5:16 I feel like the streaming stats shown here for shows is similar to streaming numbers for albums. The more songs an album has, the more time is spent listening to it, and the more cumulative plays it racks up over time. The same could be said for these TV shows; if a season of TV has 8 episodes that add up to roughly 8 total hours of runtime, it's going to have a significantly lower number of overall minutes watched than a TV show with three times as many episodes to a season, and twice as many hours of content to consume.

[@mr.t107]

This is why I love House MD so much. So many episodes, episodic format, yet it still manages to tell a powerful story and show enticing characters

[@randomuser-xc2wr]

should have ended after season 5, the last three seasons were torture to watch.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Nostalgia is a big one but i think the real answer is background noise. If you want to have something on while you do chores or take a nap, you turn on something you already like and know and won't mind missing parts of

[@D4C_LoveTrain1]

guilty lol. I just put on something like pirates of the Carribbean or star Trek reboot while I work.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

If background noise were the answer then why wouldn’t people be picking episodic reality shows like Chopped, Judge Judy, Kitchen Nightmares, etc. those are so formulaic that you hardly even need to look at them

[@brianalice]

I think it has more to do with parasocial relationships. Rather than just playing background noise, I’m hanging out with my friend, Chandler Bing. I can spend time learning about life with Data or quipping with Xander. With so many episodes and so many tones, they feel more real than movie characters. Spending lots of time with them tricks my brain into thinking they’re part of my life.

[@AndrewAnstrom]

​@@D4C_LoveTrain1i do this too, but my picks are the Simpson's, American dad and RedLetterMedia videos

[@michaelahurt]

@@brianalice Yeah, this is pretty well documented. People with ADHD, anxiety or suffering from depression-- which seems to cover like 90% of adults at this point -- all find comfort in spending time with TV characters in that way. The nostalgia can just add to that or be it's own thing. But it's definitely a _combination_ of parasocial, nostalgia and ambient TV. It just depends on the person and your mood. A lot of shows can do them all equally well or simultaneously. I'd add another usage for those shows as well: relaxation TV. Shows that combine an engaging enough plot with a safe and predictable low stakes environment. Or as my wife calls them "pallet cleansers". Old sitcoms you didn't watch or don't remember are perfect for this.

[@ianhamlett8839]

The thing I think you're missing with Suits being at the top of the charts is that "minutes watched" works perfectly with mediocre TV from back then. Most of those minutes are in the background while people are vacuuming and ironing. You don't put premium TV shows on for that. Also, those old shows were made with CONSTANT recaps written into the script, for viewers who had just tuned in after an ad break.

[@Attmay]

And WB is creating fake accounts to prop up the viewership of those two terrible sitcoms. I never heard a funny joke on either one of them. Not one.

[@roneteus]

I feel like Poker Face captured that balance perfectly. Each episode is like a mini movie like Columbo, but there's a running arc slowly starting to develop in the background. Also, post-season 5 my favorite Supernatural episodes were probably the standalone ones. I miss those.

[@EricTheKartoonKing]

What’s this “we” shit? We didn’t ask for this. Stranger Things did it successfully and then every studio exec thought they’d just copy paste the format, without actually thinking it through.

[@owenflibbert8019]

I think “we” is the market since Stranger things was pretty much the most successful show ever and tons of other shows have seen huge success with the format during that time period

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

It really should've ended after Season 1, or just been an anthology like originally planned

[@zacharymccoy7091]

Streamers wanted their shows to have budgets of big blockbusters, but sacrificed the length of the seasons. Now TV seasons feel like they're done in a blink of an eye.

[@david2b4u]

And let’s not forget the suits in charge also want them to only release half the season every year bc longevity or something-.-

[@TabalugaDragon]

0:37 I'd add Agents of SHIELD to that list. It's like No Man's Sky of TV shows.

[@technobladeleakedclips1827]

One man's lie

[@TabalugaDragon]

@@technobladeleakedclips1827 if you haven't checked NMS since 2016, then yeah. It got like 20 free updates since then and completely turned around. It's an excellent game now.

[@TabalugaDragon]

@@technobladeleakedclips1827 it was in 2016, but received an overwhelming praise since 2018 and it keeps delivering free, major updates since release. They updated the planets and immensely improved the space stations in this year alone.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Great show

[@TabalugaDragon]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp it is. Super underrated due to its weak beginning. It's not perfect, but it is truly incredible at times.

[@1anonymousb]

I'm surprised you didn't mention a show like Burn Notice. To me, it had the perfect blend of episodic stories mixed with season long stories. There were others with a similar format like The Librarians, Leverage, etc. They were definitely palate cleansers among all the intense shows.

[@marcmarc1967]

Burn Notice was the perfect blend. 80-90% episodic, whit a hint of the main story-line added in.

[@maliciousmath]

The idea that a show's worth is measured by how many people binge it within the first weeks it is available is not good for anyone. It doesnt give time for people to coordinate watching, talk about episodes on their own, or to give a show a chance after they hear about it from friends. My experience is that I have a busy life, and I hear about shows to watch and might have time the next month. By the time I watch, usually I know that the show is cancelled with many unresolved questions.

[@cpsemple]

Dexter did pretty good at establishing a season-long arc but managing to remain episodic to a solid degree.

[@justjoannak]

Absolutely agree regarding S1-5 & 7 and it has 12 episodes per season to boot.

[@lpnp9477]

@@justjoannak up until new blood which was 10, but at least it was wrapped up. Not especially well mind you but nothing was left lingering really.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

​@@lpnp9477was the new Dexter show good?

[@twincitiestara]

Dexter came out 18 years ago, when mostly-episodic TV was still the norm.

[@lpnp9477]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp it's worth a watch, better as a whole than the worst seasons of the original run. The ending is bad, arguably worse than the original ending but they're doing more anyway so it doesn't really matter

[@IsaacV24]

I think a great comparison is Andor v Acolyte: Andor was a 12 episode show that was allowed to have multiple story arcs with multiple different characters and storylines that come together in a satisfying way that makes you want more. Acolyte is an 8 episode show that only focuses on one storyline (maybe two depending on how much you count the flashback episodes as their own storyline), thus making it harder to focus on multiple different characters and thus making it so you’re not really satisfied with what you watched nor are you really excited for what’s coming.

[@AnthologyOfDave]

Now let's never speak of The Acolyte again.

[@Devil-Made]

Be careful. Disney is watching. They’ll call you a bigot and a racist if you don’t like their product.

[@bjiornbjiorn]

The Acolyte as a TV show was very meh: some good points and some bad. It certainly wasn't the worst Star Wars project I'd ever seen. However, it suffers from terrible pacing that causes huge problems for audience retention and the story as a whole. It's how you end up with weird things like the flashbacks feeling disconnected from the main story to such an extent that viewers like yourself might consider it a separate arc. If nothing else, it was interesting to see a project with a plot that simultaneously felt like it had been stretched out over too many episodes and yet also rushed. I'm starting to think that 8 episodes might be the opposite of the Goldilocks zone for modern TV.

[@chrisheimva4857]

@@bjiornbjiorn Acolyte really had the stink of something that started out as a movie, then got awkwardly stretched out to 8 or so eps, much like Obi-Wan. Which is a shame because the show had potential and gave us some legit great moments and performances; but it felt so hampered by the streaming show format.

[@mattmurphy7030]

@@bjiornbjiornif the acolyte wasn’t the worst Star Wars you’ve seen then wtf was. Rhetorical question

[@dh3913]

This makes me think of the Abed quote from Community "It’s TV; it’s comfort. It’s a friend you’ve known so well, and for so long you just let it be with you". I'm taking it out of context but the "it’s comfort. It’s a friend" part exist BECAUSE of the long seasons and the getting to know the characters so well. When TV just acts like elongated movies it loses that.

[@nctrns]

I think Fringe and Person of Interest are great examples of how to blend episodic and serialized content. Both started as case of the week shows, dropping hints for the overarching story here and there, and then ramping up the serialization after they got people hooked.

[@randomuser-xc2wr]

Watched both but ended giving up on when the serialized story took over. I gave up on Fringe with the last season...I just didn't care to sit through even one more season of that.

[@toonboy2041]

With most people watching old shows on streaming services, it makes sense why shows like Futurama got revived in the first place (even though they really didn’t need one), but shows like that are watched because people miss shows that were like Futurama, not because they wanted MORE Futurama

[@muuchoo]

Can we all agree that 12 episodes is a fair number of episodes for a season? Not too many, not too few…

[@mike91mdk45]

I'll cosign that 👍

[@DeanRockne]

It depends. Half hour comedies are better with longer seasons.

[@lpnp9477]

@@muuchoo it's too few

[@zoeybarter3246]

Very much depends on the show

[@ethankillion786]

This is not something new. HBO has been doing short seasons for nearly 30 years. The reason networks did 22-24 episode seasons was to make as much ad money as they could. It was not an artistic choice as so many people with rose colored glasses think it was.

[@trumpetbob15]

But that's kind of the point now though, right? All these streaming services putting ads in SHOULD be looking at why broadcast networks had long seasons as opposed to the HBO model. Instead, we get whining from creatives when fans don't tune in. Why would I? You keep shoving ads in everything and not giving me anything in return. So screw it, I'll wait!

[@KamenSentaiMetalHero]

@@ethankillion786 Except HBO shows weren't this short. They were often 13 episodes. Also, the whole 8 episodes thing is also not an artistic choice, it's a financial one because the studios want to save money as much as possible.

[@neutral_narr]

You can say the same thing now

[@LoveK1]

But they weren’t making people wait 2 or more years! It was a new season every year. That’s the difference. Clearly you have those rose tinted glasses on and can’t detect the red flags flapping.

[@sc0rch009]

Strange New Worlds and Poker Face stick out too, not for having long seasons, but because of their mostly non-serialized structure with such strong writing. It's funny that some of the more adventurous writing now on TV is happening on shows that embrace old-fashioned tendencies. I hope the trend continues. And I wish SNW would have 15-20 episode seasons...

[@TrueMithrandir]

yes! Poker Face was the first thing I thought of when watching this vid!

[@robertrulebirtannia]

In 5 years, The Boys has released 32 episodes over four seasons. Contrast that with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which released 144 episodes over 7 seasons in 6 years. I've enjoyed The Boys a lot, but a two gap between extreme short season just isn't great for sustaining audience interest.

[@existential_]

Can you imagine the new rumored season of 24? It will be called 8 instead and follow Jack Bauer during a 9-5 office job.

[@KamenSentaiMetalHero]

@@existential_ I been rewatching 24 throughout this year. That sounds terrible.

[@existential_]

@@KamenSentaiMetalHero 🥲

[@Malik_Maverick]

Waiting 2-3 years for 8-13 episodes is crazy 😅

[@lovecraftianleviathan8918]

13-episode seasons were perfect. Buffy’s 22-episode seasons were great-in the early years. In seasons 5-7 they really struggled.

[@danschwab6173]

And that's because seasons 5 - 7 they started to get away from the episodic nature of the show and focused too much on the overarching story. Season 7 especially.... and it was the series' worst.

[@lovecraftianleviathan8918]

@@danschwab6173 Yes, but the standalone episodes they did do in those seasons-Shadow, Listening to Fear, I Was Made to Love You, Flooded, Life Serial, All the Way, Doublemeat Palace, As You Were, Same Time, Same Place, Showtime, Potential, The Killer in Me, First Date-were pretty lame, especially compared to seasons 2-4.

[@brianalice]

Didn’t half the writers or producers go to Angel? Then Marti Noxin and Joss Whedon were left with fewer checks on their worst tendencies?

[@danschwab6173]

@@lovecraftianleviathan8918 Definitely agree. They had a different vibe to them, and weren't fun like seasons 2 - 4. The show really should have ended with Buffy's death in season 5. Weren't Buffy and Angel split between the CW and WB networks at the time? Buffy on CW, Angel on WB? Must have made it awkward for network execs at the time.

[@danschwab6173]

@@brianalice I don't recall how involved Joss was with the Angel series in terms of writing. I kinda thought he was "meh" on the whole thing and I've never really heard him talk about the show. I think he moved onto to Firefly, etc. by that point.

[@scottwooledge6387]

I am rewatching Lost (my third go around) and I am marveling that they had 25 episodes and still we felt starved! lol Lost is an interesting show in history of tv as it was the last broadcast tv show to penetrate the zeitgeist and be very broadly popular and appointment tv. And a big part of its success was that it took a very long time to do a very deep dive into the characters. We don’t get to know characters as intimately now as we did Jack, Kate and Sawyer.

[@goobfilmcast4239]

Lost sucked

[@TheFourthWinchester]

Ah, Lost. One of the best shows ever made.

[@scottwooledge6387]

@@TheFourthWinchester it’s amazing it was produced for ABC. But it’s also clear the network was feeling a lot of pressure to offer “prestige tv” level shows. They actually did a really good job balancing high quality and the mass market limitations of relatively small budgets and huge episode counts.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I never actually caught it when it was airing, but I wanna check it out. None of the new stuff interests me at all.

[@platform14]

Lost was professional tease TV. It jumped a shiver of sharks in its final season (ninja temple and magic cork) and the "nothing mattered except each other" pay off was poor and manipulative. Having watched year to year, week to week, and speculated on forums inbetween, I've never felt like I've wasted my time and lifeforce quite as severely.

[@guilhermevasconcelos252]

That's a nice insight on something we need more people talking about. I heard it started happening after the 2007 writers strike, when studios agreed to pay writers more per episode, but standardized less episodes per season in a shady move to avoid losing money. Also, I think sitcoms took the biggest hit because it's a genre that requires intimacy with the characters more than any. Because of that we ended up with very funny shows like Great News being canceled after 2 seasons due to failing to create an engagement with the audience and Apple TV+'s promising Mythinc Quest trying to shake things up so early on that it forgot to lay ground for comfort first. That's why people, even younger generations, keep turning to Friends and Seinfeld to get some laughs... They're relyable.

[@UzzyT.]

I was talking to one of my friends about this, I want 22-24 episode series back!