Shoshana Zuboff & Roger Mcnamee on Surveillance Capitalism

[@Infidelio]

I live in a house with a small living room. My daughter and I once joked about getting a sectional sofa, which would be way too big and not at all our tastes in furniture. I have never googled sectional sofas. After this conversation, I was deluged with ads for sectional sofas. Oh yes, they are listening. The husband of a co-worker is a lawyer who worked on a landmark case concerning privacy and Alexa. What he told me was chilling.

[@sandal_thong8631]

I thought it weird that your TV could listen to you. And I don't want my computer or a device like Alexa listening in either. I did have an experience like that where I'm pretty sure I didn't look it up on the internet, but got an ad or ads for something I talked about on a cell phone call! I forget what it was.

[@kendebusk2540]

I've been off Facebook for about 15 years now, mainly because it was eating up hours of my day and producing precious little in return. This was before it was common (?) knowledge about about the privacy issues. I am on NO social media at all; no Assbook, no Instashit, no TwitTwat. I do get many emails, but they have almost nothing of mine except that address and it reveals nearly nothing about me, plus I go through a VPN so everyone thinks I'm in Tokyo or Buenos Aires or Capetown from my IP address. Thanks, Al, for bringing this more out in the open than it has been!

[@garybezner6774]

Sometimes a 46 minute program is too long, in this case it was too short! Thank you for your dedication, to your audience!

[@ShannonJacobs0]

Why should my comments be any less repetitious than the google's offensive and unstoppable ads? Only one question for KZbin: Does anyone really think more frequent and more offensive ads can lead to profit?

[@christinaulibarri4777]

Thank you Mr. Franken for your guests and commentary.

[@jps0117]

What a great (and necessary) interview!

[@lulu6618]

Omg! I am so grateful for this channel! Really a great one! Thank you Al. Speaking the truth about our country.

[@DETROIT1948]

Al, The Truth and Nothing But The Truth.

[@AniBAretz]

This was foreshadowed by Robert A. Heinlein in "Stranger in a Strange Land."

[@paulgrieger8182]

I started a new job. FB suggested a friend - I looked at this person, and they are the wife of a new coworker. The *only* way that FB could have suggested her is - the FB algorithm harvested my coworkers phone number, and connected it to her. Does this mean that she got a suggestion that I might be someone she knows? Creepy and intrusive.

[@Atheistbatman]

So, make sure you keep checking and signing in and inputting info 🤪

[@royjohnson366]

Shaking head Loosened cheeks "goble blahga gerb" What the ___ are you talking about? Please use complete sentences, correct punctuation, & expand your explanation so that a reader might be able to understand exactly what you are saying. and by the way, Al, nous sommes begat.

[@mollysimmons2960]

Why are you still on Face-plant?

[@LADYKAT...]

Well that sucks. I'm sure you're right.

[@paulgrieger8182]

@@mollysimmons2960 because otherwise I won't have connections to my friends who are all over the globe, and my cousins.

[@b991228]

I was a believer in the idea that problems could be solved by relying on the will of the common good. The question though is whether the common good we are witnessing is the will of the people or the will of the quest for increasing capitalization?

[@thomaskremer4604]

... What do you think this extraordinary amounts of finance capital were born? They do it for decades. They do it since the beginning of capitalism. Their will is that democracy some times will be an episode like mosquito bites. Their present methods are more effectiv than ever. They try to hide them, they are very successful in doing so. But we are not helpless!

[@jaelo2314]

Rhetorical question, right? Many people do things, buy things, say things to be like other people. Should I own certain brands to be more like a majority of those around me? I hope not. But products are redesigned to appeal to those consumers.

[@artmusic2]

Shoshana's poetic words of both tech alternate paths & potential apocalypses. Mind-bogglingly great podcast. Mr. Al Franken --gratitude galore!

[@hapennysparrow]

This is truely frightening. I have noticed when I have a conversation with my family about any number of concerns, that almost immediately, that thread is picked up on my utube content. I feel spied on because I am. If Europeans addressed these issues, then so must we. So what do we do to push back, the small ones like myself, to see this intolerable situation rectified? Other than throwing away my cell phone, pushing my car over a cliff, and completely going off grid, what can we do to protect ourselves until the Government gets its act together and regulates the hell out of technology. I have to confess, the idea of AI freaks me out. Please do another episode that gives us ways to combat this monolithic intrusion into our personal spaces.

[@ShannonJacobs0]

KZbin intrudes with lying ads, flaming scams, and offensive propaganda? Great! Strong motivation to cut my time wasted on KZbin. But the EVIL google's insane idea is I should pay to waste more time? Profits from KZbin? ROFLMAO.

[@gijsjacobs166]

The problem in combating the notion of surveillance capitalism is with the fact that its dominance has already materialized in every nook and cranny of the world. It, alongside the neo-liberal mode of thought and production, is simply so dominant that it requires us to rethink our basic interactions with others and the world around us. But as a point of hope here in europe, as an architect i can see a trend towards a more local and diverse way of living as opposed to the globalized homogenous neo-liberal approach. This is expressed materially in things 'commons' such as urban gardens and co-housing projects. They are so interesting to me because they imply a completely new way of interacting, a way in which efficiency is no longer the primary goal... But its a long road to go for sure

[@CliveNDerek]

Reliance on technology right here, with the voice recognition transcript, created a number of gaffes, among them turning the words "Al, is . . . " into "Alice," and crediting Al's theme music into something composed by the "great Leo cocky."

[@patriciamartinez-lx8dy]

Enjoyed your podcast Al, very informative.

[@shazamshazamshazam696]

I recently read that one of the things slowing down page loading is the bidding for who gets to present their ad for your eyes/ears. I studiously avoid clicking on any ad when I am online, and do not have my phone linked and synced with the internet.

[@Valerie-mz4et]

Great information and by the by, these interviews could be a lot longer. More please!

[@ShannonJacobs0]

What kind of KZbin comment does the google actually censor? Hint: Seen a lying ad or BS propaganda here? Better not mention it--but just let it push you off of KZbin. Too bad the EVIL monopolists have eliminated any better websites, eh? No sale. No profit.

[@ateamfan42]

Anyone remember the old days when Google's motto was "do no evil"? Turns out evil is very profitable

[@pattykelly6621]

If you 'need' to use something everyday, there might be a problem. I don't have a smart phone, or a data plan on the phone I have. I used to be occasionally on Facebook, but that stopped in 2019. I'm not on Twitter or TikTok, never have been. I'm on Instagram maybe once a month. I know that 'they' are able to harvest a LOT of information about me just because I watch and comment on KZbin and I shop on Amazon. I get several emails a day with political propaganda, but I don't open them. What they know about me is enough. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a large footprint on social media. I think we all need to step away.

[@MyriadCreative1]

Great interview explaining the problem and its history. Apparently, the solution is for us to unplug as much as possible. But, we already knew that.

[@Pthomaspe]

Thanks Al, fantastic insight into such an important phenom, we must respond.

[@nannetteprata2715]

Wow. good, terrifying, scholarly, work

[@jimbergh7624]

2 thoughts. 1) I wonder what Google, who owns KZbin, is going to do with our metadata? 2) Does anyone else think that campaign finance reform is necessary to fix this and most of our political problems?

[@canyonroots]

I noticed the ads recently matching my thoughts. I assumed that media's algorithms found me. Actually listening to my speech is too much of an invasion of my life.

[@hughquigley5337]

I love how radical these guests are! Great podcast

[@rhondah1587]

What I personally think is the biggest problem today is too many have never developed critical thinking skills. Too many are apt to believe anything that fits their personal biases, fail to fact check or look for reliable data and aren’t really interested in hearing anything that contradicts their biased opinion. The fact that advertisers follow my preferences doesn’t bother me. I find it hilarious that most of the time they show me ads of stuff I already purchased so for them, they are failing miserably. 😂

[@sergegainsbourgii1852]

Killing critical thinking has been part of the plan. Look up what Bill Casey (dir C I A '81-87) said about ensuring that everything the US pop believes is false. Monopolization of free or underpaid labor/resources/markets is the actual foundation of the west's (& US's, especially) economy & is its addiction. Everything cultural, from politics to religion, has been co-opted to justify & enforce this. Integrity, ethics or common good is counter to this drive.

[@co1937]

I remember the hearings. The internet companies did a snow job on the Senate. I remember Clair Mckasil winking at the Facebook guy. It's hard for me to believe that Franken is not up on this.

[@markendicott6874]

Now that I've retired I think a good use of 30 mins of my day is to spend that time just clicking any random shit I can to drive whatever AI Algorithm has me in it's sights totally batshit with trying to figure out what kind of lunatic it's surveilling, and can it have a new assignment please. You're welcome internet.

[@CliveNDerek]

If it's already there for you to click on, it ain't random.

[@kagartoe]

Google always makes me sit through really long commercials every 2 minutes while watching Al.

[@shazamshazamshazam696]

My reaction is like Franken's, we knew but hearing the details is very disturbing.

[@lisaroy9291]

Fantastic interview on a most important topic. I’m curious to know if there are any simple ways we as individuals can sabotage the algorithms or at least mess them up a little, even if it’s seems stupid? It would be great to have a follow up on how effective the new laws in Europe are, and how that’s measured, etc. thank you for bringing us this information! ❤from 🇨🇦

[@danieldonaldson8634]

yes, don't use social media. But do it for the obvious ethical reasons: those companies are inherently anti-democratic, and what they do in weaker economies is far worse than what they do in the wealthy ones.

[@mpetry912]

One countermeasure is to use different logins / emails / names so data cannot be aggregated on a common user ID. Delete your FB acct. Disable promiscuous mode on your phone. Etc etc

[@kendebusk2540]

Use a VPN, you can "be" anywhere in the world and change it daily or hourly if you please from Istanbul to Cairo to Chicago!

[@sergegainsbourgii1852]

​@@mpetry912what's:promiscuous mode"?

[@btimec5290]

Love this discussion! I hope we can make big changes to combat big tech and AI. Thank you Shoshana.

[@randomaxe662]

Outdoor surveillance would require the victim to carry something (ie smart phone) to track and match you...unless you live in countries which already "fingerprint" your appearance with facial recognition.

[@shardsofcontent4829]

Absolutely brilliant content here, but the low view count makes me wonder if the frogs are already cooked.

[@spamletspamley672]

AI index: therefore AI am.

[@shahanullah-n6x]

You are our Hero. I am very grateful to you for enlightening us❤

[@valk5045]

Wow, one of the best episodes of a podcast I ever heard, painful that stupid shit gets millions of views and this will maybe get a few hundred thousand

[@btimec5290]

How true. Most people don't care, or are oblivious. Most discouraging for me, and empowering for big tech and fans of AI

[@mackymintle7806]

Jump ahead to why we’re “not fucked” 40:41

[@shahanullah-n6x]

I am with you. I don’t have no gadgets except iPhone which I leave at home when I am out and about. I have dumb phone which I will start using. I’m very angry with the tech company. They should compensate everyone whom they spied on and stop doing what they are doing right away.❤you people.

[@jamesleonard2870]

Interestingly KZbin decided not to monatise this 👀

[@hereigoagain5050]

Great podcast. Big tech is easy to defeat. Click sponsored links but don't buy the products.

[@martinlye2748]

Big brother is watching and the GOP is all in.

[@wocookie2277]

There was a society before all this technology. Call them on a phone, and get together. You know a whole bunch of families having dinner. The 70s and my childhood. Going for a vacation without any contact too the world.

[@chocolateclaire]

I can say definitely that I saw a trump ad on my feed that pissed me off so bad I screamed at my trumpy neighbors and they soon sold and moved. I became so upset I had to not expose myself toALL news. for 90 days before theelection. I say it should be illegal to collect or use personal private information. Make it illegal to possess private information. Just like child victims photos

[@canyonroots]

The internet knows me by how many thumbs down I have posted.

[@DETROIT1948]

Put yourself at one with the universe. Equality.

[@jaelo2314]

Robert you stand in good company, though most people are going to crawl over you to touch the coat of a false prophet.

[@kathyfaulk710]

I kept a rough tally of times between ads at my first run thru this interview. I did this because I was astounded by the number of ads compared to other youtubes I watch. There is an ad on average every 3.8 minutes (both video and the overlays). I went back to listen to the whole thing again to check my times and lo and behold!!! no ads! So from now on I will let the interviews run while I make my coffee and feed the cat and then sit down to watch it "a second time". and PS: Sandy Hook was a terrible thing, just like all the other mass shootings. But I am sure that if I click on one of the 10 times I see ads for signing some kind of Sandy Hook petition I will be asked for money. So no thank you. Petitions do nothing.

[@j.n.sloane]

If you change your browser to Brave, you won't see any commercials. Brave is built on a Chrome platform and it's great!

[@victorialeif9266]

The three of you should get together with Ralph Nader, and create a new series of discussions! It sounded to me like both guests were echoing what Ralph Nader has been saying forever! Be civically aware!

[@moxita91]

I hate to criticize almost as much as I hate it when people gloss over reality. The one mantra my brain glommed onto was when your guests said we're the "boiling frog" while boiling more frogs. Surveillance capitolism ? I'm well aware that people are capitalizing by spying on me. Have at selling my personal preferences for toilet paper to my local grocery store so they can, do what with that information 🤔

[@markhatfield8809]

"THEN DON`T WEAR A SMART WATCH, goofy ? !

[@davidwilkie9551]

So we wonder if the technogist who put a flaked stone knife on the end of a spear feels responsible for all the warfare ever since. It's an object of artifice, Artificial Intelligence that can be passed on and inflicted on innocent people forever. Think for yourself is basically self discipline over the ocean of outside information we do need a few tools of the mind to deal with, better Curricula seems to be the most efficient way to affect change. WYSIWYG, warts and all.

[@Johnconno]

Shoshana Zuboff, it sounds like a Tsarina breaking wind.

[@peege9000]

Aw man! EVERY episode is disturbing and frustrating.

[@sandy-mr5gj]

zero surprises here. zero privacy.

[@Never-mind1960]

I would say the loss of Air-America radio is what gave us trump. The only way to explain the fall from the high of Barak Obama to the low of trump.

[@kens2623]

Al, look at the Russian Oligarchs in London and Great Britain. You were talking about Brexit. I think 60 minutes did a piece on how they were controlling the British economy, bringing their billions to bank as well as businesses to Britain. They were buying mansions in London and Castles around Britain. The one Oligarch even owned one of the top soccer clubs. Lastly how do you think Britain was influenced to get out of the EU and Putin influenced the change in Britain using his Oligarchs as well as their money to influence Brexit. It was a training grown for what happened to our elections, tech and Trump as well as the far right.

[@direwolf6234]

mcnamee - with his venture capital funds hires talented aging bay area musicians and fronts a rock band called 'moonalice' that cover sixties tunes and try to create a 'dead' like experience ....

[@gdotone1]

this discussion shows the problem with these folks explaining anything. the problem is they don't know how to say yes or no, and then explain their answer. it's like, let me show you how intellectual i am, they have something to say and only want to say that, but still they have not given a concrete answer. you were asked a question by the host, silly us, that sounded like it could be answered with a yes or no. now the way they answered does not work well with the masses in this time period. republicans are short in answering and direct answering questions, depending, yes wrong too, but it did not take three minutes to hear their answer. then leaving to those listen another 3-5 minutes of figuring if that was a yes or no and then trying to remember the question. good grief. look, i don't want to put words in their mouths, but i am exhausted, having to wade thru their answer. ok, maybe, perhaps, i'm not smart enough, but, or, perhaps patient enough to listen. hey sorry. people are not saying they want privacy.they know how to do that. stop buying product. stop using services. people only care when they think they are inconvenienced, any other time they don't know and don't care. europe has no idea of privacy in the sense of the public good. the thing that europe has going for it is, that there several countries and several different languages clearly being able to confuse any issue. plus there are many politicians having all sorts of affairs and doing questionable acts they don't want others to know about so they will gladly talk privacy. the us politician just believes they won't get caught. examples: trump, insurrectionist congress people, etc.

[@co1937]

Snowden warn us of this years ago. Go back & watch his videos.

[@Clem62]

Is it AL Franken or AI Franken? Think about it.

[@christopherdaly1399]

Utter dystopian - speak no more - now i know why my feelings don't matter

[@62426637]

Should we own our own algorithmns?

[@FisherIsle]

we know about al franken! the kind of person he is...

[@davidwitzany5852]

5:00

[@yuuka926]

Facebook gave us Donald Trump....the copium

[@danieldonaldson8634]

Really, what is the surprise, and do we think that it was somehow better before? Capitalism is based on creating conditions under which no realistic choice exists for the majority of people other than to enter into economic exchanges that are inherently, and statistically bound to produce disadvantageous outcomes for them: i.e. they are forced to sell their labour for less than it's value. Sorry, but Marx got this one right. This form of constraint is about information, but creating a credit-based system and promoting over-consumption, banks and other companies have been assembling more than enough data to always have market advantage over people in every day society. Surely it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that if we follow this back through the rise of anti-labour organization laws and union busting, or the patterns of development in industrial factory work, or the way of colonialism, or of slavery, all the way back to the origins of capitalism with the Enclosure Laws, this pattern of non-negotiable, unequal and exploitative relations embedded in labour markets has always been the way. All it boils down to are changes based on the available technology and levels of social development. How a prof at the Harvard Business School acts as a champion for the citizen, an institution devoted to the apotheosis of Capitalism is more interesting question…

[@j.e.sprucefarmer5157]

Very good point from Shusana... 💐 sorry, but the interviewer unfortunatly tries to sidetrack many times on Trumps presidency, that is not the reason for the big failure, but one of the result. Tipp: Johann Hari, Stolen focus. 👍

[@chinookvalley]

Al, please talk about the reports coming out about the vaccines that harmed millions of people who were, "following medical advice". How different would it be if Trump hadn't dumped the protocols Obama had in place for just such a situation we saw/see with the COVID-19 pandemic? A lot of people were harmed, for life, by the vaccines.

[@mikereisswolff4662]

Listening to Shoshana Zuboff's contribution to this discussion was disappointing to me. I couldn't shake the impression of a hippie stepping out in front of her ivory tower for a short break. Thanks to Al who constantly tried to break through to the meaning and consequences of what she was talking about. But even he wasn't able to lead her to a more fruitful recommendation about how to get out of the grip of social media algorythms (and their creators) other than trying to copy Europe's GDPR. I've found Max Fisher's book "The Chaos Engine" more insightful.

[@westtexas806]

I wanted to listen to shoshana zuboff but I'm not going to listen to these two boys.

[@westtexas806]

@@leebrock4783I've listen to many of her interviews and read her book. She is very intelligent and I value her opinion.

[@westtexas806]

2 years later I'm surprised you are still acting like someone attacked police officers. The only person hurt was a chick who was unarmed and shot by government. Dude should get sued by Jan 6th people.

[@leebrock4783]

You're drunk, right? Just say "yes" and move on.

[@westtexas806]

@@leebrock4783 no it's been proven unless you watch CNN I guess. It was an unauthorized tour of the "people's house" the house we bought and paid for.

[@Brianbeesandbikes]

I've seen footage proving your claim false. I'm no fan of how both dem and gop parties are owned by elites, but excusing kkkonservatives for such cult- like methodologies is a whole new and dangerous flavor of crazy

[@GlenaGarrett]

@@leebrock4783 Maybe he's drunk on orange kool-aid?

[@westtexas806]

@@Brianbeesandbikes I've never voted for a republican. If you have footage showing a protestor injuring a cop. Send the link. I've watched over 40 hrs of footage for a democrat think tank. And there is zero proof of protestors injuring a cop. Non of them that went into the building even had weapons. 2 had pepper spray.

[@jeweltee69]

Propagandast

[@briancattani5109]

i'm a frog and I jumped the hell out of the US. Thank god I did.