Shoujo Boys vs Shounen Girls: The Objectification Olympics in Anime and Manga | Video Essay

[@fann458]

There's literally a shoujo called "It takes more than a pretty face to fall in love" ... BECAUSE IT TAKES MORE THAN A PRETTY FACE TO BE A GOOD CHARACTER AND ML

[@Danny_Az]

I LOVE THAT ONE

[@eddieboston6540]

Yea nice cherry pick where the plot is the name. Be honest 90% of shoujo is about pretty boys with little to no character.

[@fann458]

@@eddieboston6540 even when it's about the pretty boy (like mizutama honey boy) it's not about the prettiness of the boy

[@spring6066]

@@eddieboston6540 just admit that you never actually read shoujo that much

[@BattlerUshiromiyaa]

​@@spring6066they are generally not very developed or complex to be quite honest

[@m.i7211]

18:20 As a Japanese it’s really interesting that yaoi has taken on a new meaning in English to refer specifically to gay hentai, because in japan yaoi is just an outdated way to say bl.

[@gaharajoke]

that's very interesting! A lot of terms relating to Japanese material have taken a new meaning in the West due to the English-speaking community using them as they prefer. :)

[@zainmudassir2964]

Thank you Japan 🗾 for making anime. Beautiful country too

[@kookkookkookkook8863]

i know!! throughout my life I've held the understanding that yaoi just broadly male x male, so i was shocked and scared about that was different, and I've been talking about specifically sex when using yaoi throughout this entire time 🤯

[@autumndawn8587]

haha yeah I personally didn't know that and I'd always prefer to use the correct terminology. The fact that it's still misused today is very weird!

[@mettahydrrr]

In Russian-speak community yaoi is also perceived like a gay-hentai, for other things we can also say “bl” or “shounen-ai”

[@monicacreator3168]

In shoujo, most of the time when men are objectified, they still have agency. They know they are hot, and know girls like them. In shonen, well, panty shots. Even when the women are away and they know it, they are not above panty shots

[@ryo4312]

did you watched fruits basket

[@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938]

​@@ryo4312that's why they saed "most of the time", a exception dosen't make the rule

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

​@@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938yeah that most of the time is false. Men in these stories both physically and mentally designed to sexualy appel to women.

[@BurningRubber454]

All men in shoujo are always 1 dimensional and are sex objects

[@noirekuroraigami2270]

yeah, lets not forget that there is a big portion of women who want men who can take control of the situation. A lot of women are turned on by it, and some women literally call men names for not "manning up" on a situation. I cried about my dead grandmother, and a girl called me a pussy. I have heard aunties and other women, literally say they didn't like this one actor because he cries.

[@wmucher]

Excellent presentation of objectification and the concept masculinity in shoujo. I have tended to watch and read more shoujo than shonen mostly because both male and female characters tend to be more fleshed out as protagonists, and present a richer depth in their discourse not readily available in shonen, which is mostly action oriented.

[@gaharajoke]

I agree! I really like both because sometimes you wanna switch off your brain and escape in the shounen world, but shoujo is where I go to experience the characters and their emotions. :) Xx

[@valhatan3907]

@@gaharajoke same!

[@starknight103]

​@@gaharajokeI have 2 ideas on what you can do for future videos they are anime related.

[@grimboi231]

​@@gaharajokeif you can and want to, can you check out jujutsu kaisen because it is ,to me, one of the few shounen where it has well written characters of women and men. One of the most well written, in my opinion, is Maki Zenin and her story is one of the best in the manga

[@BurningRubber454]

@@gaharajokeall she did was cherry pick and take shounen series out of context

[@Nice_Tree]

I feel like shojo as a genre has MANY problematic elements and layers, and male audience catch it and voice their subconcious discomfort about it. You had mentioned lookism as one of them. I can add that most shojo stories plays around social games. Like characters constantly expected to guess other characters desires, thoughts, expectations with a ton of miscomunication on top of that. (To be honest, some shojo manga avoid that and those are my favourite titles) So male audience has a valid concerns, but then many people conclude "oh, that means shonen and shojo are EQUALLY problematic, so that's not a sexism, since it's balansing each other". And that's a mistake, this genres aren't mirroring each other, they have different structure, tropes and completely different visual and storytelling instruments. To sum up, shojo deserves in depth analysis of pros and cons as a separate genre, not as an "inverted shounen"

[@gaharajoke]

Very good way to put it. Shoujo is not a monolith, it's a demographic category, and it can also suffer from poor writing and unhealthy plotlines. But the systematic objectification of women in male-centric media is a different issue!

[@dog_curry]

You can’t compare the implementation of toxic relation elements in stories for the sake of drama to systematic misogyny constantly upholded by the most popular battle shōnen

[@Nice_Tree]

@@dog_curry the whole my comment is about this two genre shouldn't be directly compared

[@dog_curry]

@@Nice_Tree true

[@Mr.Nichan]

You just reminded me of the joke that most Shoujo Manga plots would disappear if the characters actually communicated with each other and honestly.

[@zigzag8392]

Great video! I agree with your conclusion and I’d like to add a few observations. First, while it’s rare for male shojo characters to have their idealized bodies be prioritized over their other characteristics, it is a prerequisite that they have an idealized body. They’re all tall, slender yet muscular, hot boys. Second, there are a number of male “dere” tropes which proscribe masculine sexual behaviors to the female viewers. There’s the arrogant, pushy, “no means yes,” grabs her wrist because he’s not done talking yet types. Somehow this act of attention makes her fall in love. This can take the form of the stalker trope at worst, or a jerk at best. Then there’s the aloof, disinterested guy- until the girl makes herself romantically available type. Sometimes this guy is a loner nerd, and sometimes he’s a traumatized bad boy. Either way the relationship magically fixes their problems and transforms them into a worthy partner. Last there’s a guy who does one nice thing like loans an umbrella or tells a bully to back off, but is otherwise bland or unremarkable. Somehow this makes the girl fall madly in love. It ignores the time and effort to get to know someone and decide if they’re a competent romantic partner. All three types present unreasonable strategies for relationships which ignore the work it takes to date. Or it depicts abusive and possessive traits which girls must tolerate. It’s rare to see honest talks about their personalities or habits which harm the relationship and subsequent attempts to improve themselves. Instead we often get the “miscommunication trope” to provide drama in the story. This can create harmful expectations in both young girls and young boys watching these shows.

[@gaharajoke]

Yes, 100% agree with these observations! And unfortunately, these tropes exist in media across the world. These toxic love tropes have been misinforming young people about what a relationship truly is for years,,, to the point where even writers fail to see how these tropes are harmful because they find them attractive themselves.

[@hika8538]

I think a case could be argued is that the shoujos that utilize those tropes for characters and miscommunication as story plots fall under the bad/mediocre category and don't really become popular, thus not very worthy of comparison as a representative of the genre as a whole instead of the more popular series that generally are better

[@zigzag8392]

@@hika8538 I feel complicated about that. I do dislike the miscommunication trope and I dislike toxic male love interests. But depiction is not endorsement. I think Moral value is different from Narrative value. The judgment, of a story as good or bad, depends on your subjective values. You can write a story about a girl falling for trope-kun that takes time to flesh out the characters, give them complete motivations, explore their personalities, and change them on a character arc. There are some examples where it's used well and the story is good. While I agree most of the time it's mediocre/bad, I suspect that's because most manga is mediocre/bad. Consider my subjective values; I like character growth, creative worldbuilding, and personalities with more than one dimension. I dislike gore and shock value, flat characters that don't exceed their "dere" type, or cliché settings that exist to serve flashy action scenes. I don't mind fan service if it's part of the narrative, but I hate when it's forced. If a story has content I dislike, it can still use that content well. But that's me, and I know plenty of fans who are most interested in big fights and boobas. Different values. To get back to your point, I can think of a few series that use the toxic boy tropes I listed that are popular, and some that I consider good. For instance Nana, where Hachiko ends up falling for all three, is a story about getting burned by naivé ideals of romance. Fruits basket has the cranky "no means yes" types. "The angel next door spoils me rotten" was pretty popular but I thought it was bad. Even Domestic Girlfriend, a fine art dumpster fire speedrunning through romantic taboo bingo, is at least well-written and entertaining. If you agree that depiction is not endorsement, you might agree that a story's Moral value is unique from its Narrative value.

[@sheepsong5681]

Could you give some recommendations that don’t do those tropes and actually have a more realistic take on how relationships should be/are formed? I want to read shojo but you’re right that the tropes you summarized are the majority.

[@zigzag8392]

@@sheepsong5681 some of my favorites are: Kono oto tomare The flagrant flower blooms with dignity Insomniacs after school Skip and loafer My love story Toradora Princess jellyfish My dress up darling (not shojo and very horny, but it’s on theme horny and depicts teenage sexuality in an honest and respectful way.)

[@rinoakirova1548]

I remember watching The Earl and the Fairy with a female friend. The male protagonist was a terrible guy who manipulated and mistreated the female lead for most of the series (before he started his "fixing" arc), yet my friend would still say he was nice. Me: "He literally tried to kill her. Twice." My friend: "Sure, but he's handsome."

[@rifl-rex]

Yup

[@briochelover]

I think a major difference is that in shojo, the vulnerability or breaking of character of the male leads is super common and a big part of what makes them attractive/desirable- in other words the hint of depth is what intrigues the female lead and the audience into wanting to be closer to the character. It feels tied to the attraction too, because the female leads nearly always express a desire to want to know the male lead better, as if before they only liked them superficially as a pretty face but now is where the story will change into the more potential crush/love interest mode. Good example is fruits basket, where yuki is first shown to be a more nuanced character than nice hot guy in the scene of him and tohru shielding his secret garden- that scene is framed as a little bit romantic or at least hints the audience of a potential romance between them ( at least at that point in the story lol ). It does the same with Kyo on the rooftop scene as well. Whereas with female romantic interests in shonen, the first thing that creates the attraction will always be face, boobs, body in general, and her personality will usually be generally nice and submissive- and that's enough for the male lead to get flustered, but the main difference is that the scenes which further the crush/attraction is never really a break of character or show of weakness, it'll just be the female 'lead' expressing her already established personality towards the male lead- basically just being nice to him. Think in my hero academia, where uraraka is nice and supporting toward deku, which immediately established her as potential love interest. It works the other way round too, where the male lead is nice to the female love interest, and then she becomes smitten. But to me it feels a tad more shallow, because its not the discovery of a characters traits that creates the potential crush, its just attention from them. A lot of guys misinterpret girls being nice to them as them being into them for this reason imo lol.

[@briochelover]

To be fair some shojo do also have the stage of a male lead being nice to the female lead as the first step of the romance, but it'll develop from there quickly, as they find out more about each others personality. In shonen that stage feels more prolonged as female leads usually get sidelined anyway, so interactions between female love interest and male lead usually stay as wow she's so nice to me, how cute and her secretly crushing on him hard and acting nice out of that.

[@BurningRubber454]

Even though in shoujo series every male characters are 1 dimensional and are objects

[@ericbreaux6124]

I often see people say women prefer relationships so much that they aren't as visually sexually excited as men and that more people find women's features more attractive. Many women who often feel sexual would rather read about sexual stuff than see a sexually depicted male body. You see women sexualized and pursued much more often than men are by women. Even many heterosexual women prefer to sexualize their gender more than they do males. I don't know how they don't hate that the sexualization ratio vastly favors what those attracted to women want to see. I've seen many people of either gender say there's more ways for the female body to look attractive than the male and that curviness on women makes it easier to depict a female body in art, and gives more variety than the male. This difference of expression of sexual desire for one gender is often attributed to testosterone. Even though women have some testosterone, because that's what gives males our features, that would make sex desire more of a male than female quality. This disproportionate amount of expression of sexual desire or just appreciation of beauty for one gender more than the other has always made me furious. I can see no advantage to one gender being sexually desired more often than the other. That leaves more people of one genders desires less satisfied more often. This is something that makes it difficult for me to enjoy female beauty and is a reason I choose to stay single. That and many womens curves being largely fat makes it difficult for me to enjoy female beauty as much as I want and has given me depression. Fat isn't a material that gives a stable body shape, but very loose material stored in it and meant to be absorbed. It isn't a body part. It upsets me to think there isn't as much of a butt on men compared to women and often much less in the chest area of men compared to breasts for women to enjoy seeing.

[@zainmudassir2964]

As a straight guy thank you for breaking down feminism and explaining what women face which can be reinforced by how media shows and treat females.

[@BurningRubber454]

Because (sarcasm) that’s never happens to men

[@decidueyezealot8611]

@Supermobile4546 not even going to try and decipher what this means

[@BurningRubber454]

@@decidueyezealot8611 it’s mean it’s happens to men as well (more often then women)

[@xorbyc8149]

@@BurningRubber454 why

[@BurningRubber454]

@@xorbyc8149 feminism The media

[@oldramen373]

This is a really good rundown of the whole topic! One thing I thought I'd add was the difference in the role the opposite sex plays in the focus of shounen/shoujo. In Shounens the focus is always on the action: men vs men stuff and the objectified female characters with a half baked romance and no character writing are kinda just the "side show" to it all. Meanwhile in Shoujo, the protags relationship with the guys is usually one of or exclusively the primary focus of the work so theres a lot more effort put into it- giving the guys and the romance with them depth beyond objectification. However while this might just make it seem like shounens only objectify women cause its not the main focus of the writing, it doesnt hold up too well if you look at romances written for men where like most shoujos the romance and the opposite sex characters are the main focus like in many visual novels (even when excluding eroge of course cause that's theyre whole thing). Even when the female characters get fully fleshed out and are well written, they still tick more of the boxes for objectification than shoujos as its common to at least have one scene which serves only to give the audience a chance to look over the female characters' body with classic accidental pervert tropes like walking in on the girls changing or the characters falling on top of each other or upskirt shenanigans. Even stories like Clannad which largely dont objectify its characters still have occasional scenes or running gags about breast size. Additionally, although I have few examples to pull from given how rare it feels beyond like the magical girl genre that shoujos arent focused on the male characters and how they grow closer to the protag, these non-romance shoujos dont really treat their male characters like a "side show" the same way shounens do constantly. I think its pretty clear how imbalanced the portrayals of the opposite sex are between shoujo and shounen when you look at things from that perspective.

[@joshmoonXY]

Giving the audience a chance to view the character's body, it's not objectification. It's just sexuality and desire. We are sexual beings. Although I will say certain troupes are annoying. Like panty shots and the male character walking in on a female character while using the bathroom. I do not like those. But the creator/ writers showing the audience how attractive their male or female characters are, I would not call that objectification just seeing their body during less asinine scenes like shower scenes.

[@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938]

​@@joshmoonXYIn moust cases it is, espetialy when it dosen't come from the character's own decitions, but rather it's impose on them .(also it dosen't have to be a sexual thing, that depens on the way it's framed)

[@joshmoonXY]

@@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938 I disagree. Sexualization/ sexualizing is not objectifying. As for imposed on the character. Would that include the image of them taking a shower, or changing, and being exposed only to the audience classified as "unwilling" or " the character's own decision? Or do you mean character on character? Like walking in on the female character in the bathroom? If it's the former. I disagree. If it's the latter. No comment.

[@joshmoonXY]

@@hectorrodriguezgonzalez8938 It is not imposing of a character's nudity if it is just for the pleasure for the audience's eyes. Not any other character. I will also say some tropes of fan service are just cringe, tasteless, and just plain stupid, like panty shots. Don't like those no matter what.

[@Serocco]

I learned very quickly that most people will only criticize fanservice if it doesn't appeal to them specifically, but many people pretend otherwise. Nothing wrong with that but a straight woman isn't gonna enjoy Highschool of the Dead for obvious reasons. But she typically does enjoy Blue Lock or Sk8 the Infinity.

[@gaharajoke]

I actually agree with that! However, it's very common that female characters are used predominantly for fan-service, rather than being given depth and importance in a story, which is an issue across the world and not just in anime. Also, a lot seinen and josei (which are advertised to adults) portray fan service with underage characters, which is....wrong.

[@Serocco]

@@gaharajoke I can also say a lotta the same women who criticize underage female characters being sexualized, will not say shit when it's underage male characters being sexualized, especially if they're gay. Then again people have different limits. Some just don't want teenage characters to be sexualized at all, which ignores how 18 and 19 are adults. Other countries and cultures (including the United States for that matter) have 16 year olds as legally able to drive a car and work a full time job, as well as 16 being the average age of consent throughout the world. So the argument here is that infantilizing teenagers who are legally young adults is its own form of harmful and paternalistic behavior. Then there's another angle. What happens when it's a queer creator portraying their experiences as a teenager through teenage characters? What happens when you see people saying "no, that's wrong, don't show gay people's real experiences you degenerate!" It's uncomfortable to talk about but there is a very real sound argument that counts as censorship of the queer experience. I have my own opinions and preferences which not everybody will share and what I think is wrong isn't the same as other people. But that's why I'm bringing all these points up. It isn't as clear cut as we'd like to think.

[@Sage-H26]

Highschool of the dead was pretty alright it’s sad it’s not getting a second season or continuing because of the author’s death. But I do agree with everything you said here it’s honestly kind of annoying and let’s not forget how some will just not even look what the Anime narrative is about because it has fanservice and just immediately call it bad, heck there are a few not a lot but a few ecchi’s that write female characters better than any mainstream Shonen has and I know saying that is like kicking a hornet’s nest but it’s true. If one doesn’t like fanservice that’s fine I have no issue with that not everything is for everyone but keep it consistent don’t be a hypocrite that’s my golden rule in life. Don’t say it’s bad here and criticize fans for liking their series but then go to your series talk about how hot the male character is shirtless or husbando or something ya know.

[@immkk1125]

@@Seroccowhy not criticize the sexualisation of teenagers in general? like there no business for an adult to be drawing teenagers as overly sexualized no matter their gender. it’s wrong. and while some « fan service » targeting teenagers won’t be the end of the world, we gotta understand when enough is enough. like showing an attractive girl or boy with the « ideal body type » whatever that is doing something that would be considered hot based on the mc’s standards could just be a portrayal of the teenage experience which is okay as long as it doesn’t involve groping, unnecessary angles and sexual poses WHICH IS what happens in most shonen. not a lot of shoujou’s portray young men being assaulted which is a good thing compared to what’s been going on in shonen, and my personal opinion remains that an adult should not be portraying teenagers as sexual! never! the sexualisation of teenage gay boys is a huge problem especially given the fact that the majority of the consumers of such content are adult women, not teenagers, but i really do not think that this is comparable to the history of sexualisation of female characters in manga. it’s another facet of this huge problem, but not comparable not as in it’s less serious, but as in it doesn’t affect the same people. for example, the objectivation and sexualisation of female characters in shonen will affect younger male audience into finding it funny, sexy or hot to harass women and girls, and will teach the girls consuming such content to be ashamed of their bodies, to be on alert and expect being harassed as a normal thing. now obviously this won’t happen to everyone but those who will fall into this trap will have a hard time unlearning it. as for the sexualisation of queer people and especially gay men in eastern media, it will affect greatly queer people and how they perceive themselves especially if that’s the only type of media they’re allowed to have or have access to, and it teaches the people who aren’t affected by it (aka cishet women) to view gay men and queer people as entertainment and something that’s there for their own pleasure rather than stories to be told and actual human beings, which is also a huge problem and could be more compared to the issues of lesbian porn being consumed by cishet men in the west…btw from my own experience i noticed that this happens way more in yaoi/yuri (which is literally gay porn) than in bl/gl even if the sexualisation never actually goes away also from experience, most people will grow out of it and stop condoning such behavior or content, while most (mainly the adult fans) will try their best to defend the need for sexualisation and fan service even when it’s unnecessary and unfitting to the genre/theme. and imo these are the people who make it really hard not to just hate on every single genre out there, cause they will advocate for adults drawing teenagers in inappropriate situations and will consume that content no matter what.

[@Serocco]

@@immkk1125 The sexualization of teenagers is primarily market based. People typically (at least publicly) will find partners of the same age range mire attractive than other age ranges. A classic way for a series to remain timeless is to market it to teen or young adult audiences. A teen isn't gonna find a 50 year old attractive and vice versa. A gay man will not find women sexy, he'd rather sexy men so he will go for what appeals to him instead. Not everything will appeal to everyone. It's super easy to say "Not my thing" and just move on. No need to moralize. Especially when the characters being sexualized aren't real people. If we're talking about real teenage actors going through that in like a film or show, fuck no, unacceptable. But again, 18 and 19 year olds are adults. Do not treat them like delicate children. That's paternalistic and infantilizing. It's no different from "violent video games cause violence," when that is simply not true.

[@fraktaalimuoto]

Very nice analysis! I like especially that you first gave clear criteria what objectification means - that it is more than just there being eye candy and fan service alone. Context matters a great deal as well.

[@raoquani]

This is a very articulate video! You did a really good job putting all of this together. I hope more people watch this :).

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you so much for your lovely comment and I'm glad you enjoyed! :D

[@raoquani]

@@gaharajoke Of course! You're welcome :}.

[@JuniperGal-ek2pu]

I feel like when there’s a sexual imbalance, it’s a problem. Like how the female characters will be repeatedly sexualized and belittled to sex objects while the men are empowered and aren’t sexualized the same way at all. It creates an imbalance that alters our views on equality and women and men.

[@langmuir-hinshelwood1686]

I think the problem does not lie in the serialization/objectification of characters the way the sexualized/objectified characters are written. Most sexualized male characters are written as "strong" while most sexualized female characters are written as "weak". Kinda shows that in society, men want their women weak while women want their men strong. In shoujo manga, sexualized male characters are often depticted as superior to their female counterparts whether in intellect or strength, while sexualized women are written to be inferior to men especially when power scaling is involved. You could argue that writing women as inferior to men in battle shounen is more realistic because in real life, men are physically stronger, but this is fiction we are talking about. It is not like magic exists in real life so why not have female characters superior to male characters in battle shounen, whether they be sexualized or not. There are a lot of strong male characters that are well written whether sexualuzed or not but very very few strong female characters that are well written whether secualized or not. Why isn't there a female Gojo or Sukuna and why does Kaguya in Naruto suck so much.

[@milliondoller06]

@@langmuir-hinshelwood1686 because its up to authors

[@langmuir-hinshelwood1686]

@milliondoller06 true. The authors want to write female characters as bums, and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to change it. It is very difficult to be a good author and it is not something I am thinking of trying, so we just got to accept what we get, because we can't do better.

[@milliondoller06]

@langmuir-hinshelwood1686 I mean there all types of genres and authors that write with the female in mind but I see a problem with most of everyone including yourself. You refuse to venture out and watch anything else

[@langmuir-hinshelwood1686]

@@milliondoller06 like claymore, kill la kill, black lagoon, magical girl shows. I have ventured out and have only found only very few anime where female characters don't suck, but they do not have the same quality of writing as Guts ftom Berserk.

[@notthesimi]

As a female fan of anime/manga I don’t mind fan service and have enjoyed series where that is the major appeal. Your video brought up some really good points, and you were being very clear that you were basing your arguments societal views. Not individual situations. My issue with fan service in the anime/manga community is the hypocrisy/virtue signaling in the fans. On both sides of the genders. Boys who bash stories like Free!! while watching shows like keijo/prison school. Or girls who complain about the objectification of underage female shonen characters but have pictures of underage shonen male characters in suggestive pose’s/situations. As a minor nitpick Gutts from Berserk is not a shonen character. Berserk is seinen. Kentaro Miura mentioned in a interview that berserk is more shojo then shonen.

[@Sage-H26]

This is interesting because I always wanted to find a female Anime fan who didn’t mind the fanservice and have a conversation with them if you don’t mind. Now I do have a question do you feel that to many fans focus on the fanservice too much and don’t really see the story or the message the Anime in question is giving? Because I’ve seen a few fanservicey Anime’s that have done female characters surprisingly well for it being an fanservice series but it will get overlooked because they complained about the fanservice or fans of that series just focus on that aspect too much completely missing the characters growth, struggles or achievements.

[@gaharajoke]

I also like fan service when it's done with adult characters and when the character also gets internal exploration! Characters can be used in a fun way and be well-written. :)))

[@joshmoonXY]

Finally someone gets it

[@notthesimi]

@@gaharajoke my problem isn’t with shonen series having fan service characters that are the same age as the target audience. I would seinen series to stop drawing ecchi stuff about high schoolers. Things I wish manga would stop are illegal age gap relationships and all the other variants that are connected to it. MHA mineta is a horrible pervert that most of the girls, he does something to, get painful payback on. In the first season Tsu (frippery) nearly drowns him for touching her. Momo does nothing in the second season for what he did to her. Jiro (earjack) stabs him in the eye after catching him peeping. In season 5 Mina uses her acid on him. My head canon is that that this is the start of how he became the worlds most depraved villain.

[@lorenzomeulli750]

@@notthesimi The thing is, a lot of the demographic manga are targeted at are minors, both shonen and not. Or they are somewhat a "coming of age" story but the author still wants other elements. Personally, I don't mind fanservice (albeit. It's rarely a positive thing for me either) unless it's really out of place in the narrative at hand. I can "stomach" it, so to speak. Plus, fictional ages are really something I have never got why people get obsessed over. In an overwhelming majority of stories the Age the author write is just bs, it doesn't make sense for the characters or the way they act. If the characters act and feel like minors, then I feel the age-disgust effect (check, NGE and Asuka throwing herself in the direction of an adult man), but otherwise... Eh, the age feel like a random number to me. Yeah, the protagonists of Kill La Kill are technically minors. But nowhere in the story they feel like ones. They are over the top personalities that live in a society where your Place at School changes the livelihood of your family. JoJo characters as well. Do you see a minor when you see Jotaro? Or Jonathan? Or fuck's sake, Giorno is meant to be 15yo.

[@meanevie]

I'm really surprised you only have 4 videos up and I watched 2 of them before checking. I really liked your analysis on BL and this video which is why I wanted to see more- only to see you're a pretty new channel! I'm really excited to see more of your videos and they were very pleasant to listen to while baking lol

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you sm for watching (⁠人⁠ ⁠•͈⁠ᴗ⁠•͈⁠) I don't have an upload schedule so bear with me 😭 but I'm so happy you liked my videos. I also watch video essays primarily when cooking!

[@meanevie]

@@gaharajoke that's okay, take your time ^^ quality shouldn't be rushed after all

[@lordtette]

0:29 I made the horrible mistake of doing that, and I got hit with that line. I'm more worried the person thought objectifyinh women or girls was meant for teenge boys and didn't see how wrong that sounded. Some anime viewers conflate attaction with objectification. And they refused to split the two. Sidenote, for the longest I thought shounen was anime with powers and shoujo was without. I'm non binary and autistic; so growing up I didn't feel shounen was for boys, I thought it was for everyone but I had my gripe on how women were presented. I realise some men feel dysphoric when they realise woman enjoy shounen as much as shoujo. It's not in our dna to consume one or the other based on our gender. Add the sexism of looking down on shoujo as "inferior" to shounen.

[@danielgrezda3339]

As a guy hobbyist writer, I have been reading a lot more Shoujo manga recently and have noticed there is a lot more variety in the guy characters while the girl characters are more muted, by contrast the guy protagonists can be replaced by a stick of cardboard while the girl characters are far more varied (there are plenty of exceptions to this rule especially in the more broadly appealing battle Shonen genre, but once you read the less popular manga like isekais or slice of life manga this generally happens). If I were to put a finger on it, I would say that a writer usually tries to make the characters of their sex act like a usual person of that sex to make the story feel more real, and since they know more about being that sex it ends up being more like an average person of their sex. But when they try to write a person of the opposite sex, they have far less knowledge of the opposite sex and their character inevitably behaves less like an actual person of that sex and more like what they imagine from memory and fiction. Then you add in the sexualizing aspect and the characters of the opposite sex of the author are far more unique and less realistic compared to characters of the authors sex.

[@Pekaman66]

Speaking of lack of diversity in favor of idealized body types. I have noticed that there is more likely to be black/ and or dark skinned characters in shonen vs shoujo.

[@gaharajoke]

Oooofff the inclusion of dark skin in manga is a big discussion but yeah, there is definite lack of representation and a lot of time the representation is done incorrectly. Although I must say that the shoujo I've read lately have included a dark-skinned character 😂 this might be a coincidence though who knows

[@Pekaman66]

@@gaharajoke any recommendations I’ve actually been looking for some with black or dark skinned characters for my own research

[@gaharajoke]

In "revolutionary girl utena", anthi is a dark-skinned main character. In "Love of Kill", there is a dark-skinned side character, Indian Guy (I know it sounds awful but it's like a codename cause he doesn't reveal his real name). "Banana fish" also has several diverse characters. There's more but these are the ones I can think of right now! Xx

[@queenlolo1384]

​@@Pekaman66 Peach Girl and Revolutionary Girl Utena have dark skinned women.

[@reixiin_]

Fantastic video ❤. From my experience, people who usually say that Shoujo manga objectifies men the same way that Shounen objectifies women havent read/watch Shoujo manga or anime (besides maybe one work). As someone whos been reading/watching from both demographics for years, Shoujo manga tends to humanize and instill more nuance within boy characters rather than the opposite (regardless of genre). One aspect that would be key to criticize with Shoujo manga (especially romance) is the internalized misogyny through tropes like the madonna/whore complex (especially with the "pure" heroine and the bully girl), nasty age gap couples, or sometimes the lack of supporting girl characters in some series compared to guys

[@BurningRubber454]

That ironic since people like you defend the sexism/objectifion of men in genres like Yaoi, shojo, reverses harems

[@reixiin_]

@@BurningRubber454 can you please explain further with that generalized statement?

[@BurningRubber454]

@@reixiin_ im saying that people who usually say that Shounen manga objectifies women the same way that Shojo objectifies men havent read/watch Shounen manga or anime (besides maybe one work)

[@reixiin_]

@Supermobile4546 First, sorry I didn't clarify, but I'm not discussing Yaoi and Reverse Harems (although they're technically Shoujo). I'm talking more about mainstream romance slice of life Shoujo. Second, I was specifically speaking about when people compare guys being objectified in Shoujo manga being the same as girls in Shounen manga. It still isn't the same. Objectification relies on degrading people into an object, them only existing for their looks/something like that. Even if there is a, let's say, "pretty guy" in Shoujo Manga, he usually gets fleshed out, humanized, and has narrative autonomy. It's not only his looks that matter, but his personality, backstory, etc... also, these guys tend to be either 2nd lead or even sometimes the leading character. In comparison, Shounen manga tends to treat girls (not always obviously) like pretty accessories, they tend to be neglected (characterization wise) and they typically don't have full narrative autonomy to have a storyline outside of supporting the guys. Can Shoujo Boys be sexualized? Yes, and there's a massive problem with that, but that's not the same as sexualization/objectification.

[@BurningRubber454]

@@reixiin_ “pretty boys are fleshed out” Which ones because every male character in shoujo series only exist to be 1 dimensional sex object to the female viewers

[@zeakthetinysoviet3702]

Thank you for the explanation. As a wannabe Mangaka, this ought to be very useful in the future.

[@chipsalancienne3080]

Great video and great writting I'd only say that trying to prove that male characters aren't sexually ojectified in shoujo is kind of a no brainer since fan service for a female audience (in non pornographic pieces) isn't necessarily sexually suggestive to begin with. While the exemples you made worked against people who genuinly think male characters are sexualized in shoujo, I think what people really meant is that just like in shounen where female characters are written in a way that conveniently please the male audience, male characters in shojo are also written through a biased filter to please the feminine audience The difference is that in shoujo (talking generally) even if there's fetishization, there's still an actual effort to add depht to the characters in contrary to many male targeted audience anime where the writters dont even bother to write good female characters as long as they're hot (but that doesn't mean that there's no fan service or objectifications in shoujo, it's just not sexually suggestive!)

[@gaharajoke]

I agree! Of course, there's still fan service (even if it is less explicitly R-rated) and female audiences can equally objectify male bodies! It's just less common to add characters purely to undress them and give them no characterisation. ｡⁠◕⁠‿⁠◕⁠｡

[@chipsalancienne3080]

@@gaharajoke True

[@sharksfan232]

You know, I see this argument thrown around about how manga targeted at male audiences don't bother to give female characters proper characterization and I really want to know where it came from, because in the material I read, it isn't the case. Yes, there are manga where it is the case (looking at you, Naruto and Death Note along with a majority of the isekai shovelware), but most of modern male oriented manga do attempt to give their female characters proper characterization. I also think that when talking about this topic, there is some confirmation bias involved, like people see a female character drawn in a sexually attractive way and just assume that they are only there to be eye candy.

[@chipsalancienne3080]

@@sharksfan232 In basically every isekai for example But well, isekai is generally terribly done anyways I should've add "in contrary to certain type of male targeted audience manga where..." Because tbf even according to my own experience I've seen/read more animanga written by men with good female characters than the contrary I also should've said that in male targeted audience, authors can rely more easily on the attractiveness of a female character which tend to make some authors rely too much on the female characters appeal and looks rather than their conflicts or whatever In these type of shows, the secondary masculine cast is ALSO superficially and conveniently written but there's not the sexual objectification problem basically

[@marocat4749]

​​@@sharksfan232aruto actually does try and has not bad female characters, hell sakurais pretty decent when she isnt involved in crying about sasuke way too much, and gets to do anything else. Plus temari and others actually never fall in that. Naruto has problems writing most female characters but they arent bad characters. Sakura when allowed actually is pretty good and there are others like ino or hell even hinata or especially tsunade. Naruto is sakura crying about sasuke, pretty good, if they were given more to do , but even that happens.

[@sakura5sango6]

19:34 Actually... I need to add to this that is IS made to arouse female readers. According to what I just learned in university last course, the shoujo and shounen manga themselves live from moe, aka "the feeling of sexual attraction and affection for characters". Otaku people CAN feel this, just like any other person would feel it towards a celebrity they have a crush on. Tamaki, the psychiatrist who made the theory about otaku's sexuality and why they like otaku culture (which includes anime, manga, videogames, idols, novels, etc.), divides 2 types of "moe" (attraction for characters), which fit with the "male/female gaze" we name them here: the masculine moe includes physical attraction, scenes of the classic beach and the onsen scenes, alluring or embarrassing situations (such as a guy falling over a girl and touching her breast), sexy outfits, etc.... while female moe includes a more... "connection" moment, a more intimate one, not necessarily explicit. Basically, THAT kind of scene you chose is exactly what Tamki theorized aroused female readers xD He might be wrong in the way readers get aroused (female readers can get aroused by the semi nude characters they like, for example, and male readers can get aroused by intimate, non explicit scenes too), but the point is that those scenes *are deliberately thought* to trigger a moe feeling. Of course, YES, we could argue the "male moe" is more sexualized and problematic if it just objectifies the female characters.

[@sakura5sango6]

In fact, there seems to be a current in shounen to also include moe for girls... (at least I have seen that in One Piece when Oda decides to prioritize LUFFY'S TORSO over NAMI's sexy outfits, like it happened in two panels of Wano -the one with the enemies outfits and the bath one, for example....). Though, probably 'cause he is a male mangaka, he uses the "masculine moe" (aka sexy outfits, semi-nude bodies) for that purpose too :)

[@crystellik]

I don't think shonen moe is a bad thing

[@takemybloon1210]

Most of the time in shoujo the most you get is seeing the male lead shirtless, meanwhile in shounen you see basically everything AND it’s usually in the form of some kind of sexual assault

[@Alias_Anybody]

I personally see three different issues clashing to create the perfect storm of bad female representation: 1. (Male) writers unable and or unwilling to write female characters. I'm not gonna analyse all of Japanese culture for this but it's certainly a well known thing. 2. Publishers who demand that their series "gotta have hot babes" for marketing. Even if it's inappropriate, doesn't make sense for the work and or is against the wishes of the writers. Now, 1+2 leads to plots that are basically p*rn without p*rn as soon as female characters are on page/screen. 3. Main character fixation. Writers being unable to handle more that one (usually male) main character who always has to solve the problem or save the day. And then there are cases where the focus does shift - but not due to deliberate planning but because the writers of the adaption who prefer lancer-kun over hero-kun are metaphorically fighting with the original writer, and female side characters will only suffer further. TLDR; good writing is hard and you have to make an active effort to properly portrait different groups of people.

[@asagotchi]

I can't remember what popular shounen or seinen it was specifically, but I remember reading an interview with the author talking about how he didn't want to objectify women and have fanservice in his manga but his editors/publishers demanded it

[@star-miubin]

That reminds me of how Kinoko Nasu, while making Fate/Stay Night, originally wanted it to be an otome game (which is how we got Fate/Prototype)

[@violettracey]

Have you every seen a male character accidentally trip and fall and have their clothes fall off when they fall?

[@BurningRubber454]

Have you see a male character that isn’t an object in a shojo series

[@gabi-y6r]

@@BurningRubber454 Here you have several shojo mangas/animes where the male protagonist is not an “object”; Kaoru hana wa rin to saku, kimi ni todoke, Insomaniacs after school, Lovely complex, Ore monogatari (there's also Skip and loafer and Ao no flag, but they're more like a soft seinen)

[@BurningRubber454]

@@gabi-y6r the opposite actually

[@BurningRubber454]

None of thoses series have actual male characters Try again

[@gabi-y6r]

@@BurningRubber454 Well, give me an example of a real male character according to you within the world of romance.

[@Nightly_Winter]

Interesting video, I really wish you would have also added serialization aspect and how it affects stories. As alot of shounen stories might be pressured to have fanservice and other toxic overplayed tropes in fear of otherwise getting axxed by their magazine, like Shounen Jump. Although I dont know how big the actual issue is on that front. Otherwise, one of my fascinations over the past decade watching anime has been how female mangaka write Shounen (like Fullmetal Alchemist or D.Grayman) and how male mangaka write Shoujo (like "My Next Life as Villianese" or Tonikaku Kawaii), and how they fit in their respective genres. Shoujo has always leaned more on the emotional and romance side where overcoming social problems, while Shounen tends to focus more on action, adventure and overcoming obstacles through physical strenght. People tend to think that Shoujo genre died ,but in fact what happened was Shoujo and Shounen have started to merge more and more in mainstream anime, with newer Shounen having more Shoujo-ish elements. Like deeper character personalities, more deep rooted problems, more side characters matter in the story and so on. With some Shounen even having definitive Female MC like Kakegurui, Claymore, Promised Neverland and Jojo Stone Ocean. I might be wrong tho, oh well still very interesting topic to think about.

[@chipsalancienne3080]

Is this the video I've been waiting for my whole life

[@justinjustin7224]

As usual, another great video. I wish I had the capacity for more nuanced feedback at the moment, but as things stand, I don't have that capacity; so for this video, simple praise is all I've got to give.

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you so so much (⁠ ⁠◜⁠‿⁠◝⁠ ⁠)⁠♡

[@LiIbeanbagbean]

When men are objectified, they aren’t seen as lesser and usually it’s not demeaning like it is for women. A lot of times the objectification of men is almost like, empowering (muscular, confident). The women are always shown to look like little girls and are always sexualized as submissive, soft, delicate, weak. There’s not a lot of specific outfits made specifically to sexualize men in anime. A lot of of me are sexualized and objectified in a dominant way in anime, whereas women in anime are always shown and look submissive. It’s ridiculous. It’s fckn disgusting. I’m so done.

[@ashutosh3613]

This was a fantastic video! Looking forward to more of your content .

[@autumndawn8587]

Amazing media analysis. I did study hegemony in my TV/radio/media course in uni and this is a great refresher and it actually is helpful to make certain arguments when it comes to the ideas of objectification in the media. As a feminist, this is very useful information to have. I also believe that true feminism is to take down the patriarchy that harms both women and men alike!

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you for your lovely commen! (⁠◍⁠•⁠ᴗ⁠•⁠◍⁠)⁠❤

[@campfire87]

Love all of your videos and really hope that there are more to come. Of all the video essays I've watched, yours are the most competent in dissecting anime through the lens of gender studies.

[@magnadramon0068]

I think you make some valid points. And I agree that shojo doesn't reduce men to their sex appeal the same way shounen does to women. At the same time you fall into a trap, I often see, were people compare only a narrow selection of shoujo aimed at young girls to shounen made for boys in their late teens. This is problematic because their are laws in Japan restricting what you can place in manga for children and they are way stricter on what you can put in shoujo compared to shounen. Manga for women and girls isn't divided into just shoujo or josei. It's divided into shoujo, josei, teen's love, ladies comics and otome doujins. Out of all of these categories only ladies comics and otome doujins are strictly pornographic, shoujo is subject to the most censorship, and teens love is the middle ground that can depict sex while still having a complex plot. There was a time when shoujo was less restricted and could depict nudity, graphic sex and even rape. This lead to parental outrage, and so now if a manga marketed to girls is too sexually graphic it automatically gets placed in the "teen's love category". Teen's love is a huge market in Japan if you look at sites like Renta! and Manga Planet there is mountains of it. But Because western fans still think women's manga just means shojo and josei it is less well known. So while I won't say your entirely wrong. Since even the most sleazy and sexually bizzare otome doujins tend to give male characters more depth than female characters in your typical shounen. The comparison your making is still off since your comparing media aimed at different age ranges. A more fair comparison would be comparing a ecchi series to a teen's love series. Finally BL does not equal porn it is not the female equivalent to eromanga, that would be ladies comics and otome doujins. There is some BL that is meant to be pornographic but that is called ero or hard bl. Stuff like Junjou Romantica might seem racy but compared to actual hard bl it is tame.

[@gaharajoke]

I agree with most of your points. But I chose to compare series that are aimed at young girls and young boys. My Hero Academia is a shounen and I compared it to a shoujo. I was very specific with what series I had in mind and I only considered shoujo and shounen for this video. My concern was mostly what was portrayed in mainstream animanga that all ages are exposed to. Although, I agree that Otome games can be an issue. I chose not to discuss it because this video was animanga focused. I also never said BL is porn, I said yaoi is.

[@magnadramon0068]

@@gaharajoke If your only talking about current shoujo vs shounen. That comparison might seem fair on the surface. But part of the difference is due to the creation of the "Harmful book acts". Which was created to punish shoujo manga publishers for showing too much sex in their manga. Shounen never received the same level of scrutiny because Japan's government has been way harsher on media for women and lgbt+ people in terms of censorship. There was even a attempt to ban BL from libraries, with the excuse that BL turns women into trans men. Also I didn't say Otome games I said Otome doujinishi. Otome doujins refers to a genre of self published manga made for women.

[@gaharajoke]

If that harmful book act only targeted shoujo, that greatly contributes in the discussion about discrimination against female-born art. So, I will look this act up! Also, sorry, I misread that. Xx

[@BurningRubber454]

They do Every male character are objects

[@txferretgirl]

I would say it's worse for shounen women than shoujo men. In shounen women rarely get a chance to shine, and if they do it's rarely. They only exist to swoon over the ML, or to be eye candy for readers. They often have no real agency of their own, require saving, or are just the tag along to say a female was added. In shoujo the men are sometimes the goal to reach, being 'out of the league' of the FL. They often have their own character, goals, and thing they wish to achieve, even if they are also there to be eye candy. Fruits Basket has a ton of good looking men. But all get time for us to see who they are and resonate with their character. They are people, not just hot men to surround tohru. Shounen often don't give much respect to their female characters, and often lack their own goals and character. They are just the hot or cute girls to surround and find the ML desirable.

[@9822703]

in porn people get naked aand bump uglies

[@BurningRubber454]

“Do it rarely” 99% of male characters in shojo are sex object with no personality

[@139G20]

then 9999999% of female characters in shonen has no personality @@BurningRubber454

[@gracequeeney3399]

​@@BurningRubber454I think you should reread shoujo series again because shoujo is empathy driven storytelling and shoujo's biggest theme is human relationship. It can't be shoujo if the main leads don't have personality or issues or backstory because emotion and character dynamic takes the front in the plot and the story centered around them. Ofc I don't mean shoujo is perfect. Many MLs in older shoujo series are problematic and outright scary.

[@BurningRubber454]

@@gracequeeney3399 had to get into a genre (shoujo,josei,reverse harems) that Misandrist/sexist towards men (every male characters are objects

[@Serocco]

Free isn't a shoujo cause it's an anime original series but it was directed by a woman for its first two seasons. She made it specifically for a female audience and it's the first time a non-BL anime series heavily sexualized its male cast for the female gaze. I like Free just cause it's ecchi for women, and it exposed so many people's hypocrisy it's insane. Straight men were outraged that KyoAni made an anime about hot guys. Straight women who opposed fanservice suddenly had nothing negative to say about the fanservice that appeals to them in Free. It was funny at to see in real time

[@gaharajoke]

Yes! Most of the time, people fail to see beyond their own biases. Free is a great example of male fan service and queerbaiting.

[@Serocco]

@@gaharajoke You could make a whole video about queerbaiting in the future using Free as an example. But it's a nuanced one because Utsumi was seen as kinda crazy by the male staff members and wasn't able to see her full vision come to light.

[@RhomniStJohn]

Straight women for a long time had been complaining about unbalanced fanservice not fanservice in of itself (though either kind can be distracting in more plot driven narratives). Free! was a balancing act and therefore somewhat addressed their complaints. That you call the reaction hypocrisy shows how poorly you were listening to the actual arguments.

[@Serocco]

​​@@RhomniStJohnYou proved my point for me. If someone dislikes fanservice, they should dislike all fanservice. They shouldnt be selective about fanservice just because it sometimes is made to appeal to them. Hypocrisy is inescapable when that simply isn't true for most people.

[@Solararisa]

"Straight women who opposed fanservice suddenly had nothing negative to say about the fanservice that appeals to them in Free." How do you know these are the same women though? That's straight up an assumption, lol. If anything, I saw more people pissed at Free for not catering to them, explicitly. Especially on reddit where ecchi anime promos are always heavily upvoted, and Free!'s promo art was downvoted to hell and back.

[@yoboihawj6976]

Its kinda dissapointing to see the amount of misunderstanding in the comments. The fact that people just cant accept that shounen is full of flaws and will white knighting it to the end by saying "well they do it too" is just sad. Why can't people just accept their are flaws that can be improved and move on. Im a shounen only guy but i have sisters that are shoujo fanatics. When i watch anime i have to hide, because theres a higher chance of a nude person beinh on my screen than there is for my sisters.

[@repli2991]

There's people who can't accept their favorite pieces of media have flaws, no matter how hard you try, it goes beyond this topic, I've seen people respond to criticism of their favorite anime saying: "Well, it's perfect for me, so f*** you!", completely avoiding discussion.

[@Naoto-kun1085]

Thank you for making this video! It always bother me how men will accuse Shoujo of objectifying men just as much as Shounen, because it's just not true! Shoujo treats men with way more respect and dignity than most Shounen shows to women! It bothers me when men who are driven by misogyny try to paint Shoujo in a bad light while glorifying Shounen! Your video was amazing, thank you!

[@forest6008]

you should totally watch the cyberpunk edgerunners anime because it is really good and i would love to see what you could do with that as a video

[@gaharajoke]

Yeeees I really like it! I actually love cyberpunk concepts and other futuristic crime shows, like Psycho Pass. I really want to make a video about them.

[@semma88]

Thank you for your video I thought it was really insightfull. The only critisisme I have is that in certain parts of the video you talk so fast that I can't keep up. It made me think that you don't have to rush, give people some breathing room to think about what you just said. Thanks again!

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you for your comment! Believe it or not, I tried to speak quite slow....I naturally talk very fast and I can't control it, but I'll do my best to slow down!

[@nuitarik]

@@gaharajokeI think they mean more the space between thoughts like for of an editing or scripting but I could be wrong that just my thought 😅 yes you talk fast but that’s not a problem if you give your thoughts time to breathe

[@semma88]

@@nuitarik I really mean with the speed of the talking, like sometimes i genuinely thought it was sped up.

[@nuitarik]

@@semma88 ohhh ok I like the fast pace so I wasn’t sure lol

[@Nana-kv6rq]

@@gaharajoke I can't believe you were trying to speak slowly in this!

[@addayang7456]

shoujo does not discriminate, everyone is objectified

[@princeOpalite3650]

Hey this is nice vid...let's see what else they posted and maybe even watch that other vid.....oh...this vid is the last post and that vid from "last year" (which would be two years from now) doesn't exist anymore....well that doesn't bode well...

[@DuskyPredator]

I would warn against looking for one for ones between "shoujo" and "shounen", they can have very different objectification. One type of objectification I often find uncomfortable is the brat stereotype characters. These are often young looking male characters that act in a way that feels like it fetishises young boys, while feeling very alien to what men act like. Like an objectification of a little boy that needs to be protected as just so innocent. I would even argue the character type of the boy who just loves the girl so much thst he can't think of anything else and will do anything to protect her, is a type of objectification. They might seem like they have agency because thry do things without being told, but narratively thei agency is being reduced by something like implied instincts.

[@crasht3nd031]

I love videos like this. Just well written and well explained discussions on what is harmful in media, specifically how gender identity is construed in popular media. And more than anything else, this video felt safe to listen to, as in it was just calm and non-conflict based. This wasn't a "gotcha" video for anyone believing shoujo overly sexualized men or anyone masculine leaning, this was just a super informative and nice discussion! Good job on this one!

[@yannickjohn6930]

Hello, I am a male who doesn't watch much anime period. I was to think about how shoujo doesn't feature more males who work out to be the heartthrob. This is my curiousity and jealousy speaking on how the shoujosei boys attract women better than shounen boys do. I did grow up watching Toonami on Cartoon Network and adultswim as a college undergrad. I now fully know about the male and female gaze of how characters go through with mediums. I somewhat do feel guilty about thinking all shoujo thinks about is expecting men be like the shoujo characters and K-pop idols. Typical stuff teen girls and adult women want in people. Somewhat difficult if I can't talk to random people in the gym or a restaurant. Asking for advice or recommendations or anything will be good. How can I bond with anime fans, regardless or demographic, about things I like to suggest without being too aggressive or insulting? Like My Hero, or Bleach, or hell Sailor Moon? Thanks for reading.

[@gaharajoke]

To be honest, the best thing to do is watch more anime and be open minded. Just because something looks like it's "for girls" doesn't mean that everyone can't enjoy it. Sailor Moon has a large fanbase including men, women, and everything in between. Broadening your horizons is the best way to be respectful and better at talking with fans. :)

[@yannickjohn6930]

I read and watched My Love Story about it's hulking main character. But what about more shoujo or josei where the male lead isn't pretty and/or skinny like said K-pop idols I mentioned? Manga has the author appeal of the Japanese and Korean standards or beauty. Any more recommendations?

[@gaharajoke]

well most manga characters (shounen or shoujo) are drawn to be quite small and thin and "pretty" I guess. This is a problem in the entire industry, so you won't find too many But there are some more diverse manga out there like "I'm kinda chubby and I'm your hero" or "manly appetites", which are shoujo boys love manga.

[@yannickjohn6930]

@@gaharajoke Okay, and non-BL?

[@zigzag8392]

It’s rare to find romance stories where the male love interest isn’t a skinny hot boy. In shojo the male character flaws are typically arrogance, poor communication, or romantic disinterest. In shonen romance the males are still mostly hot/violent boys, but you also see a lot of nerds(otakus) who become love interests. The otaku trope is criticized for wish fulfillment: the asocial nerd does not work out, learn to self reflect, practice social behavior, or confront their trauma, but they get the girl anyways. It’s a gateway to incel logic where men believe they are entitled to women’s affection and don’t need to make effort to develop mature male behaviors. My love story is a rare example where the male lead is unattractive physically but gets the girl by being kind and self sacrificing. Some other recommendations for you: these are series where the male characters work on self improvement, develop their personalities, and show positive masculinity. Kono Oto Tomare The flagrant flower blooms with dignity Insomniacs after school Skip and loafer Sweat and soap (warning this is about adults and it depicts the sexual parts of their relationship, it’s healthy but it’s explicit.) My dress up darling (often criticized for being heavy on fan service, but it does look at teenage sexuality with critical self awareness and the male lead responds to it in a respectful and healthy way.)

[@miyayume_eclectic_dream]

I gust re-watched Paralled World Pharmacy. We have a MMC and all female characters and other males as suportive cast. There is no wifus. Ellen, the tutor, does wear the most number of different outfits. She is gifted with big boobs. NEVER does she trow herself on him or wiggles like love-lunatic. There is action. There is MAGIC. So is this one shojo or shonen? Like to whom does the applause goes for not objectifuing anyone?

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I am not an expert in manga. At least for the novels I read, it is very annoying seeing how girls are drawn in manga. It is always with the male gaze. Their boobs being big. Having a naive or dumb young girl. Even if the main leads are smart or have other qualities, they have to be drawn in a sexy pose for almost no reason. Sometimes it takes me out of it. I do agree that boys in manga are objectified, but it feels like men takes their shirts off or are posed in a sexual manner less than the women do. Again, I am not an expert and I have not seen or read everything that may change this opinion at the moment.

[@milliondoller06]

maybe you were reading manga that cater to boys

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@milliondoller06 maybe. But some seemed to cater to both genders.

[@milliondoller06]

@gabrielleduplessis7388 that's them. maybe read them instead their are certain genre that going to cater to a certain demographic don't be surprised when it doesn't appeal to you

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@milliondoller06 the stories still appeal to me. We shouldn’t have to tolerate girls being put in compromising positions or seen as infantilized in any genre in my opinion. And manga, like any genre, is more than just don’t read them if they are not for you. There are still fun stories to read, but it doesn’t mean it is free from critique.

[@milliondoller06]

@@gabrielleduplessis7388 I know they are not free from critique. you could not like those types of things but like I said they are appealing to a demographic just don't be surprised when they have things for that type of audience. It is also the author's choice what they put in their stories that they find appealing in the stories. For example, Oda likes drawing sexy females in One piece. it just one of his favorite styles in the story. Most fans appreciate it but its not the most important thing in the series or think that's the only thing to the female characters. yes you could try and critique how it is used in the series but you just have no choice but to tolerate it.

[@KalicoKal]

comparing fruits basket romance to naruto and mha definitely not fair lol yes they are mainstream but lets be honest the entire romance sublot in those shows is just fan service for people trying to guess whod marry who in there head

[@gracequeeney3399]

Well furuba is more focused at coming of age journey and overcoming past trauma, the romance of each pairings are building up really slow even it feels like a subplot and fanservice cuz shipping culture is huge in female fans. Compared to other romance focused shoujo series, furuba clearly doesn't emphasize romance in the plot. But the biggest difference is, even if furuba doesn't emphasize romance genre in the story, it doesn't mean the romance doesn't progress at all. The progress might be slow and subtle, but it never stunted and steadily progressing towards the end. Compared to Naruto or MHA who's more focused in action so much that even if there's romance subplot, it got stunted for the most part and somehow just got resolved it in the last arc. Ofc not all shonen series like this, there's some good shonen series who have nice progress in the romance subplot like Yu Yu Hakusho, Dandadan and Sakamoto Days. The problem is the majority of shonen series doesn't do the same.

[@princeOpalite3650]

I feel like they should have used a more action based shoujo as an example so it's more fair...yes action shoujo exists it just...rare due to anime studios only wanting to adapt romance shoujos back then

[@tiagox3275]

As much as I disagree with the way you approached some points, I found this video to be very interesting, so thank you for making it. Being a degenarate bisexual male myself, part of me also seeks to see boys sexualized in media. Weirdly enough, I have better luck with that reading shounen and seinen manga rather than shoujo, as I've found very few that fit my tastes in fanservice (even though there are many shoujo and josei manga I love solely for the story and characters). I think there is reason to believe men and women, in general, are aroused by different things, the former preferring more "in your face" content/visual stimulus. I think authors can absolutely both lean on the fanservice side without sacrificing character depth. That said, it's a shame some of the most popular shounen manga have very poorly written women. I wouldn't be able to tell if that's related to cultural objectification, or simply the fact the authors are males with very little experience with women, thus are just bad at writting female characters without resorting to stereotypes. And I would argue, rather than criticizing the existence fanservice itself (as it exists because there's an audience), we should keep our authors to a higher standart of character writing. There is no reason you can't both sexualize a character while still treating them with the same depth you do the others, and some of my favorite stories do just that. That said, I'm totally fine with shallow stories with overly sexualized characters, even if there's a point even I can get bothered by the fanservice (looking at you Fire Force). At that point, I just know the story isn't for me and move on to the next. There are different stories for different kinds of people, and I think authors should be free to write pretty much whatever they want as long as the stories are released to the right audience. I can only speak for myself, however.

[@InternetSexyLoser]

Danganronpa does a good job of fan service while making well written characters. I heard the anime Fairy Tail does fan service to its female characters but that does not take away the quality of writing.

[@Dojafish]

You know what Shojo >Shonen. Not only it has more complex and interesting characters , plot and story on avarge . It also so much diverse from Shounen which is only action-comedy or harem most of the time . In Shojo it isn't only romamce , but also action , comedy , slice of life and so much more ! PS: i don't necessarily mean that Shonen is objectively worse than Shojo ,but when it comes to your avarge show its alot more better .

[@gaharajoke]

Exactly! One is not better than the other across the board cause there are SO MANY animanga to compare, but it depends on what you're looking for as a reader/audience. Shoujo usually offers more emotional depth and better character interactions, even when it isn't a romance. On the other hand, shonen is usually less character-focused and more plot/world-building-focused, which is something people prefer! :)

[@watonpekeuwu5792]

This is just straight up wrong. Yes, there's a lot of typical shounen like Naruto, One Piece, etc. But, Horimiya is also a shounen, Spy x Family is also a shounen, Koe no Katachi is also a shounen, Haikyuu is also a shounen, Claymore is also a shounen, Bakuman is also a shounen, GTO is also a shounen. The fact that you in particular have a specific preconception of what a shounen is or should be is your fault and not the demographic itself. People like you watch and or read only a small portion of shounen and generalize everything while trying to make it fit your criteria.

[@chipsalancienne3080]

​@@watonpekeuwu5792Agreed, a good story is just a good story

[@MahiMahi-yu5jo]

Wonder what you have to say about extremely nuanced stories like Trigun and FMA that are shonen, and Dark Gathering that is shonen horror but with a protagonist that is a 9 year old girl. Shonen is a large demographic, not a genre. It's ok if you don't like Shonen-perspective stories, but don't lump the entire diverse range into the vocal, bland minority. And yes, I read and watch a lot of shonen that are not Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, JJK Or Demon Slayer, and I find the shonen I read infinitely superior to the romantic BS that is the vocal, bland minority of Shojo. But that says absolutely nothing about either demographic

[@gracequeeney3399]

​@@MahiMahi-yu5joI think the majority of shoujo series that you read is just romance focused. Shoujo is demographic, not all shoujo are romance. Even few shoujo series have male protagonist and some shoujo series have low to zero romance in the story. But having opinion isn't a sin right? If you think shounen is superior than shoujo then it's fine cuz it's your personal taste and your right. But it also means that if OP thinks shoujo is better then shounen then it's also fine.

[@carbonizedchair4521]

I know this comment is a little fresh, but this video has great content, but unrefined presentation. I really like the following aspects of your presentation: 1. The meticulous description of objectification, its causes, and its effects in the first part of the video is beneficial for the audience in that it allows them to understand the topic at hand, and to understand why they should care about it and by extension this video. 2. The moments where you clarify that you did not mean to belittle other's experiences just because the systemic discrimination between the sexes is unbalanced is inclusive and prevents people from getting alienated from you, and by extension, the topic and video. 3. The inclusion and discussion of specific sources demonstrates not an absolute, but a certain degree of trustworthiness. The following aspects could be improved: 1. Background footage is often difficult for parts of the audience that haven't delved into the showcased anime or manga to see how parts of the footage are relevant to the specific subtopics. This is suboptimal because to fully understand those subtopics, relevant visuals can range from being merely supplementary to outright necessary for parts of the audience that have difficulty following spoken English alone. Examples include: At 2:30 and 4:29, the video talks about the negative effects of objectification while having beach footage and characters just doing random things. There are more examples, but they are easily findable. 2. The icon in the center of the video and other images obstructs, and thus obscures the background footage, which ruins its point as being a supplementary or critical aid of support to parts of the audience. Examples include 10:54, 17:00, and 20:26. A potential solution would be to partition each subtopic to have their own background footage. How practical that would be is beyond me. 4. In-text citations for the arguments made for specific subtopics are not present except at 10:50. This is suboptimal because parts of the audience may want to check want to check the validity of specific arguments by going to the source and checking its methodology, results, etc., either by its own or by using other relevant studies. 5. Timestamps or video chapters for specific subtopics are not present either in the video or its description. This is suboptimal, as parts of the audience may want to revisit a specific subtopic. Here are also some ideas for future videos: 1. A systemic feminist analysis of the heroines in the Ghibli films. I've seen videos or essays on specific ones from Princess Mononoke or Kaguya, but never have I heard of a systemic, meticulous analysis of Ghibli, yet at least. And hey, its relevant since a new Ghibli film just came out in Japan just 3 days ago. 2. An analysis of comedy as a means to counter systemic oppression or stereotypes about certain groups of people? Like in Komi Can't Communicate or some other similar title? I'm not too sure as to what a video around it could look like, but I'm curious to see where it goes (or not).

[@gaharajoke]

Thank you for your constructive comment and for voicing your suggestions for improvement so nicely! I am not a good editor so the content in the background is not meant to match what is being said. It's just something to play in the background, which is why I have my profile pic on it, as well. That being said, I want to improve in the future and have video footage that matches what I'm saying. :)) Also, I completely get the point about the citations. Most of my points stem from multiple citations so I don't bother to list them all as they are all in the descriptions (except for very specific studies that I want people to take a look at). But I will try to be include more specific citations in the future to help the audience navigate the references! Finally, thank you for your suggestions! They sound great and I'll keep them in mind. (⁠◍⁠•⁠ᴗ⁠•⁠◍⁠)

[@carbonizedchair4521]

@@gaharajoke Oh and uh I didn't mean to pressure you when I said hey this idea is relevant. I know video production is an arduous and time-consuming process, so the initial hype for that new Ghibli film may have already died down by the time it hits the uh "unofficial" channels in America.

[@gaharajoke]

​@@carbonizedchair4521no worries, I got you! Didn't feel pressured at all :)))

[@wvdk7911]

It's a good video and a lot of interesting points were raised. I've read and watched various shows and I like both shounen and shoujo. I find this a difficult topic to talk about with the many nuances that are involved in here BUT I do agree that the sexual objectification happens way more on the shounen side. While I don't really go for shounen for deep characterization in the first place it definitely does the female characters dirty even if I can like the overall show. I find this topic hard to talk about because I don't feel it's my place to do that in the first place (for a lot of these things) and as I hang around the gaming communities as well as some others I've heard many different viewpoints on these kinds of things which muddle the water a lot for me. What does not help is the inherent subjectivity, which makes me go into the 'what is problematic sexualization in media and what is not' rabbithole which I do not always find easy to answer as context matters a lot. There is also a lot of hypocrisy and biases flowing around as well from all sides (I'm not an exception either).

[@fixielle]

Could you add somewhere the animes that are played in the background? To this and the other videos

[@gaharajoke]

Yes. I keep forgetting to do that. I'll include them in the description.

[@sirnonapplicable]

I decided to check out shojou anime a little while ago, as I was going through a romance anime bender. Watched the first few episodes of My Little Monster, and yeah, I'm done. As dumb as Highschool DxD was, at least the ML never threatened to rape anyone.

[@zeanone9257]

Rape does exist in shoujo you just didn't dig deep enough shoujo is not just romantic stories

[@sirnonapplicable]

@@zeanone9257 I went plenty deep for me. I don't wanna know what kind of Lovecraftian horrors lurk below.

[@zeanone9257]

@@sirnonapplicable you don't have to dig too deep it's quite easy to find

[@iasked9392]

the first mistake is watching My Little Monster.

[@iasked9392]

How did you even watch that, i mean its popular i guess but they are plenty more popular shoujo that have the same school setting. My little monster is not the first thing you think of when it comes to shoujo. Heck, its not even top of the list.

[@twoshadesofochre]

Very well put together video essay! Felt like I was listening to a friend... ...Wait...B is that you???

[@technocrat9000]

Let me take a moment to mansplain. While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, I think focusing on physical sexiness is missing the forest for the trees, a little bit. It's commonly said that women focus on more than just physical appearance when evaluating the attractiveness of men (to a greater extent than the reverse), so this means male characters designed to interest and arouse a female audience has more than just faces and bodies in their "toolkit." You touch on this when talking about the stereotype of the pure modest nice girl, who isn't objectified by her appearance but more by her personality and role. But you've missed it's mirror image in shoujo manga: Eg. Rich bad boys. The F4 in Hana Yori Dango is a pretty classic example. Sure, there's far less soft-porn showing shirtless bodies compared to shounen works showing boobs and butts, but that's because the "soft-porn" is instead showing how rich they are, their high social status, their popularity, how they are huge jerks and get away with it, how they are secretly hurting inside, etc. By concentrating on physical sexiness, you're missing that it's just one part of a broader toolkit of attractive tropes that animanga uses as a formula. I don't know what the Japanese or anyone else calls it, but I'll just call it "Moe Theory" for fun. You can say that having big boobs or skimpy clothing is objectifying, but what about "is great at cooking"? Or, "is catastrophically bad at cooking"? Or "is excessively clumsy"? Or even "wears glasses"? I'd say they're all used for the same purpose, to attract readers who fetishize that particular trope. Having nice abs or appearing shirtless is just a small part of this technique in shoujo - social status and personality tropes are the bread and butter there. "Is obscenely rich", "is the most popular guy in school", "Is a rebel or bad boy", "Is tormented by a hidden pain", "Is secretly tormented by their abusive father", "is a tormented artist", etc, etc. How harmful each of these tropes are can vary, I guess. Sexy bodies and submissive roles are more harmful to women than say, glasses or twin-tail hairstyles, I'm assuming. Similarly, I don't think nice abs or a pretty boy face are the main tropes that bother men - money, success and social status tropes have more effect, probably. Along with "getting away with being a huge asshole." I get the feeling that you would categorize "Rich successful bad boy is secretly tormented by the excessively high expectations of his parents" as some sort of character development or deeper characterization, but looking at how such things are used in quite a cookie-cutter fashion in many shoujo works, I don't think they're much different than "big boob glasses girl is actually a huge ditz". Let's get to the objectification olympics. Whether this fits into your ultra-narrow three criteria for "objectification", I don't know. But in my opinion they are all the same part of "Moe Theory", used for the same purpose, and have somewhat similar effects on the group being depicted. Certainly those male moe tropes can again be described as patriarchy harming men, but it makes me wonder. Is there anything that CANT be conveniently put into a box of "patriarchy"? Is there any possible harm that women could do to men, that can be genuinely blamed on women, rather than, "men created a system that harms themselves (sometimes via women)" ?

[@139G20]

THIS. Oh my God thank you for putting this into words. As a woman I felt like shoujo is still writing men to appeal and with a lot of posts on how shonen writes female characters this topic isn't brought up much in shoujo because it's different aspect they're trying to 'sell', it's easy to tell how male in shoujo is written to appeal to female readers. Shonen female characters needs more depth of emotions and depth of characters on their own, whilst shojo male characters needs more variety in personality and goddamn background story (no, not a tragic past with family but ended up being the heir of a huge company past or a trauma with giRLs kind of past story) that is NOT for female's "I can fix him" desire or "I can depend on him" desire entirely. For shounen, sure, female with big boobs and butts with feminine personality may appeal, but is that what the character is about? Can't they serve more purpose or value in the story as a human? For shoujo, sure, financial stability or let's say both HIGH social and economic stability, muscular body, and tRaUma may appeal, but does it has to be that way for ML to be appealing towards FL? Can't they be someone who is fixed, earning enough money, and have an interesting personality?

[@elischmidt4501]

when people say men are designed to be interesting things for the women to act on.

[@miyayume_eclectic_dream]

Let ask this: What is WISH FULLFILMENT for girls and boy considering love interest? How high on the scale, if asked, will girl and boy say sex(y) and what that really means? Come one it is easyer for FMC to take care of wonded MC without a shirt, it is still a wish fullfilment hiden in more "logical" aprouch as she is safe... while a shonen has no problem wanting girl in short skirt fighting. In anime Horimiya she dates an average looking guy...untill he cuts hair and turns out he has edgy tatoos NOW he is cool [so sexy equal good looking, popular over night and other girls a jelous (not shown but let be honest)] In anime Kimi ni Todoke unpopular girl gets a good looking boy and he is serious and kind and doesn't care for other people opinions and stands beside her [what girl doesn't want that? over 6-packs?] In anime Eminenz in the Shadow the girls are all dressed in like a one piece tight suit ...sure it curves on all right places...that are their fighting gear...it is sexy but she is dressed [give me argument here ☺️] In anime I Got a Cheat Skill in Another World and Became Unrivaled in the Real World, Too [a fat boy becomes a model over night and gets 2 wifus asap...what avarage, small or fat boy doesn't wish that? ....like you sad gym but for the sake of looks] In anime Say I Love You [ it is the perfect depiction of first love a girl would dream of, yeah with bumps, but SENSUAL and not a horny note to it at all ] If girl/yound women were to want man that undress we will have that in anime... a shojo MC that has his shirt open the hooooole anime 🤔 would look sexy for 2 episodes. So the question is what sexy means to the intended audiance? . . . Excursion: And to make it even bigger anime is not only one doing it, like you sad magazines and movies, shows as well BUT also books: all men are good looking and labradors as they wait for the woman to choose them ...or after marrige finally she admits for the very first time in the book she loves MC [I read that book 😑 3 weeks ago; poor MC, yes he is hot].

[@reecenaidu6020]

9:36 Hold on. I have to stop here. I was patient thoughtout because you were being thorough, but suddenly it's just men who need to remember that appearing manly is internalised patriarchy? That BS. Women, even those who have been aware of not internalising patriarchy since they were kids, are still attracted to manly men (sorry for this short hand but you know what I mean). So we will continue to go to the gym and drink whey protein instead of eating. As will girls do their make up to appear traditionally feminine to the opposite sex. Soon all these studies (many of which are well intentioned) are going to be seen as a fight against our humanity, causing more mental struggles than those they're trying to solve

[@reecenaidu6020]

My better judgement is forcing me to watch this whole thing. 15:34 is where your arguement falls apart even further. It is the second time where, after you acknowledge the issues suffered by men, say that it isn't as bad as what women suffer because trust me bro. Internalised misandry is what it is. Not minimising male suffering? That's what you're doing despite your words, and your stuttering shows your compartmentalisation.

[@reecenaidu6020]

29:09 damsel in distress can be written badly, but boys should be taught to protect. They're strong, they're invaluable. If you want less men who are committing suicide, don't force them to suppress feelings out of their control. Men need responsibility, family, trust. Men want to be trusted, needed. They deteriorate without these things. This cold, calculating 'anti misogyny' rhetoric will never help society. It will only make it worse, as do all other negative-angled crusades. Yes, shounen sexualised female characters more than the other way around. We all know that. But young boys are more curious of the opposite gender in that regard than girls, naturally. The answer isn't to push anti-misogyny rhetoric. It it to teach boys respect, self-control, responsibility. This will create upstanding young men who don't grow to hate themselves because they're curious about the opposite gender. They won't have repressed curiosities. They'll be fully fleshed out human beings. Subjecting boys to female-based angles of education is giving boys a false dichotomy. Be a repressed incel who hates themselves for their curiosities and get lost in them, spiralling out of control and becoming useless to society which hates them despite making them that way, or becoming manly men gym bros. Please don't forget boys in schools. They're not just naughty girls. They're a different gender. Shounen is not misogyny (though some writers are, as are many women misandrous). It is for boys, who are not evil perverted girls, they are a different gender. If you are a girl, you cannot truly understand this, but you should at least try if you're really for gender equality.

[@gaharajoke]

I believe you grossly misunderstood what I was saying and consumed it in bad faith. I never minimised men's suffering and I literally explained how harmful the patriarchy is for men. However, I explained that in the patriarchy, women are considered lesser than men and second citizens (we only got the right to vote recently yknow), and that's why they have suffered more long-term consequences (not because men don't suffer). You also claim that we shouldn't teach "anti-misogyny rhetoric" but we need to teach men to protect women and be respectful. What are you saying? Men are not knights in shining armour, they are simple humans and need to learn to respect and co-exist with women and to respect them as humans. Same with any other gender. Misogyny doesn't just make men disrespect their wives, it makes certain men kill their partners, kill people of diverse sexualities, and identities. Gender equality is not just about men being better boyfriends. Also, academic research has long recognised that women get objectified more in mass media, this isn't an argument I just made up. Any sociologist would confirm this, all I did was applied it to anime.

[@reecenaidu6020]

@@gaharajoke There are parts of my comment that you have misinterpreted, and it seems like I may have misinterpreted some things as well. But we don't need to agree, both our thoughts were aired, which is what matters. I will say though that I did not consume your video essay in 'bad faith', and I think it's not fair to say such a thing to someone who listened to your entire piece. Discourse is always good. Dismissal isn't

[@Solararisa]

I think the term she needed to use was "toxic masculinity" which has been a big issue recently with the rise of public figures like Andrew Tate who has a massive fanbase of men who blindly follow his misogynistic and toxic masculine ideals. It's true that there are men and women who follow the typical gender norms of beauty for themselves, but it's true that patriarchy makes it harder on people who DON'T follow those ideals for themselves. Women who go to gym, lift and are muscular are often ridiculed for looking like a "man" or men who like makeup, have a slender body and don't have bulging muscles are belittled for being like a "girl". That's what patriarchy makes hard for people.

[@nebelnoob5086]

I wanna mention though that a lot of modern adaptions and Mangas general (shounen) have way better depictions of female characters. Am example is Radiant. And God, please watch it, it's great. At least the second season

[@gaharajoke]

Thanks for the recommendation!🥰

[@segevstormlord3713]

What girls are interested in in their sexy boys is going to be different than what boys are into in their sexy girls. Boys are _generally_ more visually-oriented, and girls are generally more emotionally oriented. That said, a lot of shounen-ai exists because girls like pretty boys who like other pretty boys while wearing very little clothing, too, so....there's that. Fiction entertainment is fiction entertainment. And anything you're studying here is really just based on one simple principle: "sex sells."

[@gaharajoke]

In what way are men visual creatures when it comes to watching anime? Both men and women and any other gender watch anime, hentai, read manga and erotic manga. And they both need to be hooked by a good story. If you're implying men are more visual creatures, then surely they only read manga for the pretty pictures or the 2D girls with boobs....which is not a good look on men if I'm honest, mate. Also, "sex sells" huh? And you think that's due to some sort of biological reason or because capitalism has contributed to the pornification of the female body for profit? Just the phrase "sex sells" can be analysed in multiple ways and via many sociological avenues. But I suggest you start with the basics.

[@segevstormlord3713]

@@gaharajoke You have a very argumentative tone, but I do get where you're coming from. I think that the female body has been objectified (as have children's bodies of both sexes) throughout history, and it's not a good thing. "Sex sells" is an old, old mantra in advertising: if you want to draw attention, put a pretty girl in a swimsuit or other such sexualized presentation on your product. Want to get past the fact your anime sucks and still get teenaged boys to watch it? Boobs! That doesn't mean all anime that use fanservice automatically suck (Shinigami Bocchan is actually surprisingly good and very sweet, for example), but it is a crutch that many use. Boys are more visual creatures; we're more easily aroused _just_ by the physical beauty and sexiness of the female form than women are by the male form. That doesn't mean women aren't attracted to men's appearance. If they weren't, shounen-ai wouldn't look anything like it does. CLAMP wouldn't be nearly so chok full of prettyboys in all their works. Some of the shots you show in your video - such as the shirtless twins from Ouran High School Host Club - wouldn't be part of the shoujo anime. However, nearly-naked guys aren't going to push quite so many otherwise low-effort manga or anime onto girls as nearly-naked girls will onto guys. Girls tend to be more attracted to what men DO rather than how they LOOK; you can see this in the variations on the archetypes that apparently are common enough in Otome games to make it into the anime about them that have been coming out lately. The archetypes are distinct from the female archetypes in male-focused renai. Boys and girls are attracted to different things. Boys are MORE attracted to visual stimuli than girls, but that doesn't mean girls aren't fond of eye candy. I'm not sure what point you think you're disputing with me, either, as what you said just drips "I hate the very thing that makes my lifestyle possible," and says the point I made is "not a good look" if it's true, but you at no point dispute it nor even really...give a reason for your argumentative tone. So I'm a bit confused what you _think_ my point was, since your counterpoint feels like you walked up to me ready for a fencing match, and then promptly threw your sword into the wall to your left and declared victory.

[@gaharajoke]

You managed to say so much without explaining anything or providing evidence for your claims. I don't have an argumentative tone, I am responding to your initial arguments, which were dismissive to the discussion I made. Imagine trying to make me look like I got offended by your silly comment 😂.

[@hiro_444]

@@gaharajoke b*tch he's not trying to make you look offended, you do look offended, how else do you make up mental gymnastics like equating 'visual creatures' = 'only wants to see boobs, that's not a good look'. Bruh💀💀

[@segevstormlord3713]

​@@gaharajoke If you're not trying to be argumentative, you should probably avoid saying things like, "Imagine trying to make me look like I got offended by your silly comment." It reeks of "the lady doth protest too much," for one thing, and calling it "silly" when you took the time to respond is where the sense that you're feeling argumentative comes from. I _could_ spend hours looking up articles to back up my claims, but if you're not arguing with them, I don't see where I need to "provide evidence for [my] claims." You haven't...actually refuted anything I said, other than to call it "silly" and to say "it's not a good look, if true," which is where I get an argumentative tone without...actually knowing what it is you're arguing against. _If_ I have offended you, it was not my intention. I didn't even think I had. Which is why I didn't use words like, "You seem offended." As for me not explaining anything, I am sorry that my attempts to do so apparently convey nothing to you. I don't know how to explain what I said or meant any more clearly. If you have specific questions about what any particular thing I said means, I am willing to try to elaborate, but if, when I explain what the phrase "sex sells" means, and how it is not a ju--ah, rereading your precise question - "And you think that's due to some sort of biological reason or because capitalism has contributed to the pornification of the female body for profit?" - I think I see where you find my answer to it inadequate. I will try to answer it here. My apologies. Sex sells for a biological reason. Humans are wired to respond to sexual stimuli, both in an overt vulgar fashion and in a society-shaping reaction to members of the opposite sex. Men _do_ respond to attractive women asking them to do things. Even when they know there's no actual offer of sex or romance or other real intimacy on the table. Men will do things if they think there is a chance that it will make a woman think positively of him; it's the first step towards attracting a mate, after all. Women, similarly, are wired to be pleased when men are attracted to them, for the same reason. Sex sells because humans are wired to want it, both on a crude, physical level and in a broader relationship sense. Everybody is different, of course, but commercials aimed at men will often have sexy women hawking the product because it will draw the man's attention and associate using the product with sexy, attractive women being into guys who do that. Capitalism doesn't really enter into it except in that advertising takes advantage of sex selling. Advertising is, of course, not exclusive to capitalism, and if you want to discuss the objectification and productization of sex (women's and others' bodies included), that's older than capitalism, by a long, long shot. Prostitution and sex slavery are ancient and, tragically, still very real today. Did that answer your question more adequately?

[@celineqoujaq2175]

11:57 12:48 21:47

[@mirroredhour]

Objectification is derailing the conversation in my opinion. It should be more about the character writing and it's safe to say male characters in shoujo are written with so much more nuance and depth than female characters in shounen manga, sexualization definitely playing a role into that.

[@gaharajoke]

that's what.... objectification is about

[@fictionlover695]

Who's the boy in your profile pic? Is he from an anime or manga? Pretty.

[@BurningRubber454]

Ha no Every male character in shojo are there as sex objects

[@birdup2141]

it often takes away from my enjoyment of a series when any character isn't given personality or sexualized, sometimes I can ignore it but then you get things like fire force or mha (I genuinely think it would have been a better story if uraraka defeated bakugo in the tournament it would have been so cool) and these two series actively pissed me off with how they did these things

[@scroptels]

Requiem of the rose king is still trash, don't at me.

[@Elder-ot3xr]

I only know that women are sexualized in shonen but i gave up on finding out if men are sexualized in shojo, i have no idea what women like, sometimes people will say women are attracted to the personality of the guy, muscles or some other time it would be hands that turns them on . At this point i don't care anymore and sadly this video did not help.

[@gracequeeney3399]

I'm a woman and a huge fan of several male characters like Gojo, Megumi, Nanami, and used to simping Kirito. In general girls and women seemed to attracted toward the quirkiness or personality in certain male character. And if he has handsome face and hot body+nice voice, then it got sealed for eternity. Or if they are a real hottie such as having handsome face, good body, and radio person-like voice. The hotter they are, the more tolerable his fans with him. You will wonder why Bakugo or Gojo or Sukuna has huge female fanbase despite being literal as*h*** and even psychopath? It's because of they're quirky hottie or a hottie with quirky personality.

[@rochipapaya4839]

It’s funny that you mention that because this shoujo mangaka had said before that she chose to write shoujo because it’s way more difficult to figure out what girls actually wanted and I guess she liked unpredictable responses lmao

[@bluegamer6474]

at 24:49 you say "adibanga" which isn't a word. There were other several non words you used. Your accent is incredibly difficult to parse and sometimes straight up impossible as in this example. If you have a script (you definitely do) use subtitles. Please. They will increase the value of your videos tenfold. I know it might be insulting but it is true, your accent is really thick and at times it seems like you merge words together. I mean I still got the broad strokes of the video but it does really take away from the experience.

[@ericbreaux6124]

I often see people say women prefer relationships so much that they aren't as visually sexually excited as men and that more people find women's features more attractive. Many women who often feel sexual would rather read about sexual stuff than see a sexually depicted male body. You see women sexualized and pursued much more often than men are by women. Even many heterosexual women prefer to sexualize their gender more than they do males. I don't know how they don't hate that the sexualization ratio vastly favors what those attracted to women want to see. I've seen many people of either gender say there's more ways for the female body to look attractive than the male and that curviness on women makes it easier to depict a female body in art, and gives more variety than the male. This difference of expression of sexual desire for one gender is often attributed to testosterone. Even though women have some testosterone, because that's what gives males our features, that would make sex desire more of a male than female quality. This disproportionate amount of expression of sexual desire or just appreciation of beauty for one gender more than the other has always made me furious. I can see no advantage to one gender being sexually desired more often than the other. That leaves more people of one genders desires less satisfied more often. This is something that makes it difficult for me to enjoy female beauty and is a reason I choose to stay single. That and many womens curves being largely fat makes it difficult for me to enjoy female beauty as much as I want and has given me depression. Fat isn't a material that gives a stable body shape, but very loose material stored in it and meant to be absorbed. It isn't a body part. It upsets me to think there isn't as much of a butt on men compared to women and often much less in the chest area of men compared to breasts for women to enjoy seeing.

[@gracequeeney3399]

Yeah female is easily desired and objectified due to patriarchy traditions, while male has to be either handsome or muscular/fit to be visually desired and objectified. I personally think that's because men could be seen as attractive if he has unique or fun personality or if he's rich so the bar between two genders to being desired is so imbalance which is circled back to patriarchy traditions for millennials.

[@coffeefrog]

I think your segment on the objectification of men is sorely lacking the obvious perspective: The het female gaze and how common it is for men to be treated by women as hunks of meat to be dehumanized, catcalled, or even touched without consent--especially nowadays. Just look at the recent scandal between booktok and the Seattle Krakens, characters like Mindy Kaling, or most romance novels. These are not exceptions to systemic sexism; they are a part of it.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

Now that I think about it, boys over flowers and meteor garden (yes the same story, but still) is an example of men being objectified. While the main 4 guys don’t always get the zoom on camera angles or the panning like the women do, the female characters in the background constantly follow them around, take pictures, or bully the competition because of their fanatic love for them. They act cool and maybe sometimes like the attention, but you can see how annoyed they are with it at times too. I bet some of the internal monologues involve, “just once, can we walk to class without this mob following us everyday?”

[@gaharajoke]

Their purpose in the story is not being JUST eye candy and the girls fangirling over them eventually get criticised. So, no, I wouldn't say that they are objectified. Being objectified is not just being popular with the opposite sex. It's about how the character is used.

[@samuelardelean7037]

Kaichou wa Maid-sama, Ouran Host Club, Fruits basket, Akatsuki no Yona, Chihayafuru, Kimini todoke. What do they all have in common? The fmc is a "not like others girls" and one or multiple hot/cute guy(s) find her special. Akatsuki no Yona is reverse harem, Yona has conflicted feelings for her cousin, (Suhan?) but she doesn't asks Hak, Green Dragon, blue dragon or white dragon to "keep the distance". Yellow dragon and flower boy are the only ones that don't try to get her attention or at least yellow dragon since his tragic backstory. Yona wants to be a strong independent woman while liking to be pushed against the wall by Hak. The same with Kaichou wa Maid-sama, she has around 6 guys that like her despite being poor, flat board and bossy, and the definition of tsundere. Highschool DxD is not harem since Issei loves Rias 🤓 or nisekoi is not harem since raku likes onodera, spoiler he ends up with chitoge the tsundere gorilla. 🤡🤡 Every shoujo is reverse harem to a point, and don't negate it, there are multiple guys interested in the same girl until she chooses, that's when the tag flies out the window, shounen has boob phisics while shojo has the pretty boy army. The most disgusting anime, I believe it is shojo, imo is Orange, fmc can send letters to her past self to save her first crush from death even if that means she might never marry her current husband and deleting her child's existince. I like Shojo animes, Bokura ga Ita made me cry and frustated me with the cliffhanger ending, I would pay the author to finish Nana, I want closure. Shojo tend to focus more on the character development but saying they are better than shounen is a stretch, shounen usually focus more on the mc and his close meaningfull ones and have incredible power systems while shojos must have sob story for every character and little to no power system.

[@gaharajoke]

Oh dear..

[@qu3stining_]

💀💀💀💀💀

[@BurningRubber454]

Sexism/objectification of men

[@EnigmaticLich]

Makes sense that men aren’t objectified the same way because women’s sexuality doesn’t seem to lead with looks; women need to like the dude first

[@gaharajoke]

POV: You have never talked to a human woman.

[@EnigmaticLich]

@@gaharajoke lmao couldn't be more wrong but go off

[@eddieboston6540]

No he just needs to be hot or she won't give him the time of day.

[@BurningRubber454]

@@gaharajokeyou clearly hate men

[@wolfiewoo3371]

Slow down! You talk way too fast, I have to watch the video at 0.75 speed

[@Nana-kv6rq]

Yes, please talk slowly so that we can understand what you are saying!!

[@joshmoonXY]

Fan service is something everyone can enjoy. There are people who like attractive, male and female bodies. I feel is asinine to try to make people to feel bad aboutt by labeling it as "objectification". Human desire is human nature. It's sexuality. We are sexual beings. We like sex.

[@gaharajoke]

i explained in the first section of the video the harms that objectification causes and that objectification isn't just "human desire". If it was simply human desire, women wouldn't be so hated, slut-shamed, mother-shamed, exploited, stalked, and even killed for their body.

[@joshmoonXY]

​​@@gaharajokeyou missed my other point. I said I having male and female characters with attractive, and desirable bodies and appearances (fans services) is not objectification. I am talking about what audience enjoying seeing how the characters look attractive.

[@joshmoonXY]

​@@gaharajokeas I've said. Fan service is something everyone can enjoy. By fan service. I meant that the male or female characters have physically attractive face and body AND the audience liking the characters, physical appearance, male or female, and finding their appearance appealing to their preference. What I'm saying is that should not be labeled as objectifying male or females for liking how they look physically. It's sexualization. Not objectification.

[@joshmoonXY]

@labibaohi What point do you think I'm trying to make?

[@joshmoonXY]

@labibaohi My point is. Fan service is not objectification. Fan service is something we can all enjoy. Also don't think it's right to call an attraction of someone's physical body (male or female; fiction or non-fiction ) as objectification. But I mainly talking about anime

[@Mr.Nichan]

There's certainly a viewpoint that female sexuality is different from male sexuality: Specifically I mean the evolutionary psychology idea that males have a stronger desire to have sex as much as possible and with as many women as possible to have as many children as possible (obviously not actually, but they're closer to that direction than women), while women have no evolutionary reason to have sex more than once every 9 months and try to have sex with men who will protect their children both while they are pregnant and after they are born. (Again, what I'm presenting is just a contrast of the evolutionary pressures. This doesn't mean there aren't also overlaps or that the actual resulting psychology perfectly follow even a more nuanced description of the evolutionary pressures.) From this perspective, conflating sexualization with objectification (i.e. dehumanization) and in particular the idea of thinking of the opposite sex as "pieces of meat" or "sexual objects", is symptom of male sexuality that is less likely to apply to female sexuality, and that includes your first and third criteria. You're second criteria is interesting in this context, because this "evolutionary psychology" viewpoint implies that diminishing personhood is a side-effect of men caring less about it for their sexuality, but that they don't actually care as much about women acting in any particular way (like being submissive supportive or whatever) outside of being "sexual" with them, compared to how women should care more about men's behavior, which could "suppress personhood" in a more abstract way by encouraging unrealistic behavior centered around women, and that's something I think you actually do try to argue doesn't happen as much.

[@geager2]

Show me a woman who would sign up to only have sex once every 9 months

[@gracequeeney3399]

I personally dislike the viewpoint because it's like animalistic behavior in the wild or survival of the fittest environment. And so it dehumanizing humanity as being no better than wild animals out there which is entirely wrong.

[@joshmoonXY]

@@gracequeeney3399 technically. Humans are animals too. We are mammals. We are primates. We are a part of the animal Kingdom.

[@JoJoboiWav]

Everything you said about male characters applies to female characters as well, whether it is in shojo or manga anime. I see a lot of hypocrisy since you seem to assume most shonen female characters are straight up ecchi characters when that was never the case

[@enterurnamehere27]

Dude, do you even fully watch the video?

[@cookiediangelo8511]

I think there are 2 main reasons why the guys in shoujo manga and anime have more personality: 1) Because shonen stuff sell more, oublishers are more picky about making a better show where the guys have personality i order to be seen, it has to be better. 2) Because of the biological differeces between men and wome and reproduction, men can have kids with whoever but women have to be more picky and know the man they chose and make sure he will protect her and her children, therefore the priorities of shoe and shojou shows are reflected: shonen the girls are more objectified and there is emphasis on fightig and protecting, in shoujo the love interests' feelings are very important ad while there is dager ad fighting, the main girl is protected, though she will also fight.

[@cadethumann8605]

Regarding point two: so, men are "naturally" shallow with their tastes (focusing on physical over character) and indecisive when it comes to partners? Meanwhile, women "naturally" prefer the characteristics and intimacy of their partners whilst choosing carefully who to be with? Even as a man myself, I am more interested in stories that use the "female gaze" where women aren't stripped of their dignity just to appeal to stupid fetishes. So, even with this appeal to nature fallacy, there's no excuse to portray either sex as an object. In the end, no matter how many differences we have, men and women are both human with personalities.

[@cookiediangelo8511]

@@cadethumann8605 That's fair. These are all very general statements that of course don't apply to everyone. Personally, I don't really like shojou that much and prefer stuff made for guys. While I usually hate shonen because of the annoying protaganists, shouting, and dumb way of looking at the world, most of my favorite books and anime are stuff aimed towards guys. I think that oversexualized women are a product of lazy writing more than anything else.

[@cadethumann8605]

@cookiediangelo8511 I find myself the opposite lately: I'm more interested in various shojo works. Granted, there are many that are rather dull and shallow but there are a number that show a level of maturity and depth not seen in most shonen. And I'm not referring to just romance (though, it does seem that it tends to be handled better there than shonen) but other genres in the demographic. To be honest, though, I hate the idea of separating by demographics as I think they should be a universal human thing.

[@cookiediangelo8511]

@@cadethumann8605 I completely agree. The best works of fiction can't be classified as for men or women. I've never been that into romance, though that could be because I went to an all girls school. My favorite anime is attack on titan and manga is vinland saga. These works are both masterpeices and I am obsessed with attack on titan. But aot does not handle romance well lol.

[@cadethumann8605]

@@cookiediangelo8511 I mean, I wouldn't want romance stories to just involve romance. Have there be some other conflict be it external or internal. For instance, have there be a non-romance-centered problem where the leads have to contend with. An example that comes to mind is Fruits Basket where there are multiple traumas and personal problems everyone is facing. Even when it's just between the two leads, you can also have internal conflict or character struggles that they have to work on. For instance, My Happy Marriage has the heroine, Miyo, striving to heal from her years of abuse and learning to love herself. After all, romance is just one aspect of socialization.

[@KateeAngel]

Fictional characters aren't real people. I will objectify all of them 😂😂

[@seraph_dalgon_9216]

Finally, someone that understands the inherent hypocrisy and finally points the finger at shoujo. Thank you

[@gaharajoke]

you gotta fully watch the video

[@ShadowwingMD]

Well it seems like your attempt of beeing "neutral" kind of failed. At least from my point of few! On one hand you are fangirling over the boys that are good looking and where them beeing shirtless is no problem at all, because it is secondary to the more important character. That is beeing the defenceless hurt individual. That emotional damsel in distress that is rescued by the understanding girl that helps him overcome it. It is totally fine if good looking man are shirtless because that is "normal". On the other hand it is a problem that female characters are portrayed as good looking? Yes the breast that are many times way to big are a problem. But that aside where is the problem of showing off a good looking girl? Many of the girls you complained about have character! Those without do not get a fanbase. Just because it is not the type of character you can connect with, does not mean they do not have one. You complained about Hinata from Naruto. I do not remember her beeing overly sexualised. If I recall her story correctly she was the over protected shy girl of a nobel family, that had a character arc that turned her into a confident woman, a strong fighter, a good wife and a loving mother over the corse of Naruto, Naruto Shipuden and Boruto. Yes she was not the main Character in any of these shows. But she had her arc. You complained about Sakura as well. Yes they did her a bit dirty when they dropped the whole genjutsu skillset she was suposed to have. And yes she was a lot of the time kind of useless. At least early on! That gave her motivation to train and she too became a force to be counted upon! As well as a medic to the rescue! She too overcame a lot of her own problems. But when woman complain about female characters like Hinata and Sakura, all they see are the failures but not what actually achived by overcoming them. So your judgement feels unfair to me. One of your points was that woman are more affected by these depictions of "good" looking characters. Yet why do so many woman get so many matches on dating apps where a man only get a few? You seem kind of stuck in your bubble and I challange you to break out of it. Get in touch with man and the struggles they have. You do not seem to know them. A lot of the time woman are a lot more judgemental when it comes to looks. At least in my experience. They are harsh, they shame man, if the man that trys to aproach them is not to there liking. And you think man are the sole problem... One of the reasons is that a lot of woman have expectations that are to big and unrealistic compared to what they have to offer. They often go for the best man that exist and they do not care if that man is out of there range. If that does not go well, they feel treated unfair and in turn treat other man unfair. So woman also have some responsebilety. And blaimg man for everything is not a solution. So get real and grow up instead of escaping into your bubble. Maybe this channel might get you a fresh and more balanced perspective on male/female gender dynamics: www.youtube.com/@CourtneyRyan It is not in light of Anime, but rather dating and the problems that occure within it. Since you are making assumptions on the impact on society in general, maybe getting a more balanced impression on that first might help. To finish this off: Your analysis is flawed by your way to limited point of few. And you barely touch the surface of this topic. To be fair the impact of popculuture on society is a complex one. I hope that you do better if you touch this topic ever again.

[@gracequeeney3399]

The topic of this video is sexualization in media targeted towards specific gender, in shorts female chara in shonen (young boys demographic) and male chara in shojo (young girls demographic). The difference between the sexualization in both demographic is quite huge as explained in the video. If the main reason behind it is patriarchy culture or not then it's up to everyone. I think you missed the point of this video but ofc there's nothing wrong in expressing opinion right? Unless it's misinformation or outright hate speech obviously.

[@ShadowwingMD]

@@gracequeeney3399 So are you arguing that the shirtless male that is in shape like gigachad does not do anything for the ladys? That it does not set beaty ideals and expectations going along with it? Expectations that might be problematic if they are not met in real life? Just for reference: I've been called things for not looking like gigacad by inmature woman, that were rather crule. I've been told by woman that certain behavor was "ok or not" depending on my looks alone. So forgive me that I personally fellt kind of offended by the stance of the videos creator. "The boys looks are totally fine, there is nothing dangeros here, but the female depiction! Drive out the devels!"... I am not saying there is nothing to critesise, but beeing one sided like I recall this video to be is beyond me. Are you arguing that the "emotional damsel in distress" and the "phisical damsel in distress" are so much different? In both cases there is someonme needing help with something, they have problems deeling with. I think the creator of the video is biased and does not recognise the different kicks the respective audiances get out of the material. Especially with characters like Sakura and Hinata in the "over sexualised woman" video. I have not rewatched the video before posting this comment, so please do not judge me for not pointing towards specific points that were mentioned, but they wer portrayed fine as far as I remember the show. I do not recall them showing more skin than the male characters in Naruto. But you are right oppinions might differ and there is a right to voice them. That how discussions happen anyway! By voicing differing oppinions. And I hope you were not trying to invalidate a different oppinion by your missinformation sentence, since that might be the death of conversation and the reason for hatespeach to exist.

[@janifaafrin]

I am sorry but I felt like I am attending a never-ending lecture on a psychology course. People will be more interested in your video if you use easier words and cut out irrelevant information.

[@DaedricThot]

Bruh get a dictionary, everything they’re saying is making sense.

[@enterurnamehere27]

Dude, those informations are relevant

[@eddieboston6540]

Ok boys like to be the hero get the girl. Boys also like the woman body where i see nothing wrong with that. Shonen is fake it has zero affect on real women if a boy thinks a girl acts like they do in anime yes so girls do but not all he is to blame for being stupid. You wouldn't call porn aim at men sexist. Shonen is aim at young boys not girls and the mangaka in that diamgraph aim for those young boy readers. Yes women can be better written but it needs to be found out if it's her writing or her lack of fights. Now a woman like choice to pick the man she wants. Some women have very high goals and they to like hot men with nice bodies. Shoujo is aim at women just like i said for shonen mangaka aim for that dimagraph.