Should Declumping & Clumping Be Banned In The Pokémon TCG - Rant

Here are some of my thoughts on clumping and declumping
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#azulgg #pokemontcg #declumping

[@Mekkkah]

I suspect the circle diagram of people who declump and the people who shuffle insufficiently is a near full circle.

[@andrecastela8316]

the average dragonshield sleeves after round 1

[@lukestange]

fr dragon shield corners fold all the time

[@Hauki336]

trippin, ive used dragonsheidls for a long time love em

[@nicocchi]

On the one hand, Pokémon TCG Live does have a loading screen tip telling you to take your time when looking at your deck to figure out your prizes On the other you have like a minute to send life signals so you don't actually get to take THAT much time (By the way, those tips are also horribly outdated; they're telling you to play cards which have rotated out years ago)

[@isoldmymumforrp5371]

Allow to see your prize cards at the beginning of the game, saving 10 minutes. I really enjoy playing vs lostbox and watching the guy taking 5 minutes to write down 6 cards

[@Jadon.]

Agree. Should be shown face up, shuffled, and then put down. More strategic for both players.

[@tomweston3239]

​@@Jadon.Showing them face up fundamentally changes the game though - I'm not wholly against it, but a hisuian heavy ball style check has no impact but speeding the game up and I'm here fir that

[@Mekkkah]

@@tomweston3239 That's what Jadon suggested though

[@Jadon.]

@@Mekkkah I think he's saying revealing it to your opponent changes the game. I agree somewhat, but usually in the cases where prizing screws you over in a matchup it's going to happen regardless of the opponent knows. Seeing them let's you make calculated counterplay vs blindly playing and going "oh cool they didn't hit it"

[@sebashtion4917]

Thank you @AzulGG for discussing this people NEED to hear this. I’ve talked to many people in my local scene about this and i’m glad someone big is bringing this to the forefront

[@joshholt2877]

Just let the player look at the prize cards on the first search.Would help save time especially in a bo3 format would save potentially 2-6 mins in a match.

[@joshholt2877]

@@nmr7203 shuffle them and put them back facedown... just like heavy ball...

[@andrecastela8316]

@@nmr7203 play 4 hisuain heavy ball, easy

[@isoldmymumforrp5371]

@@nmr7203 With that argument, you can also ban heavy ball

[@isoldmymumforrp5371]

@@nmr7203 Judges or the enemy can Simply shuffle the prizes afterwards aswell.

[@yuseifido5706]

Or change prize cards to be token cards or tokens so the issue is entirely solved. That would also get rid of being screwed over by unfortunate prizing

[@MrLilwoodchip]

I’m a PTCGO player (RIP) and fairly new to the card community. THANK YOU for these simple etiquette videos. I’m learning a ton

[@huseyinbaba8140]

Pokémon should integrate something like an Hourglass That would solve most of the Problems💪🏽

[@bakasenpai9156]

Just pile shuffle mid game to declump your deck 😂

[@BimDoesStuff]

FAXXXX

[@cultoftyler9045]

it doesn't do anything. if it does, you are cheating

[@Machiroable]

​@@cultoftyler9045 wut, if the pile shuffle is effective then you're cheating... what type of logic is this?

[@cultoftyler9045]

@@Machiroable yeah, if it actually helps, you are cheating. because it shouldnt.

[@geezlueaze1951]

You and LDF be really speedrunning what you have to say or discuss in these videos. My auto generated subtitles couldnt keep up 😂 On a serious note, only time I see this happen at my locals is with Lost Box players, taking almost 2 minutes after a VIP Pass to figure out their prizes are and write down their energy count. Their 1st turn ends in 6 minutes 😅

[@imetzl9340]

Why would you watch LDF

[@treelayn6292]

@@imetzl9340 bc he wants lol that's how doing what you like works

[@Bizzozeron]

What a bizarre issue. In YGO its a rule that you will never rearrange your cards other than by shuffling them face down or with a card effect that lets you intentionally stack the top 3 or whatever. You wouldn't have any choice to clump or declump them other than before the match, and even then at every shuffle opportunity, your opponent is also allowed to shuffle your own deck.

[@willoz2317]

YGO is a completely different game, namely because there are no prize cards so you always know exactly what cards are in your deck. Whereas in PTCG, you have to figure out which cards are and aren't in your deck which means looking through your deck (when you use a search card) and going off of process of elimination to deduce which cards are in your prizes.

[@makiah_s]

I’ve only been in the TCG like six months, but I’ve noticed some of my local players like to try to stall games by shuffling excessively, and I typically politely ask them to take their turn, There’s one guy in particular who likes to tie with me when he knows he can’t win the matchup, so he’ll shuffle excessively make small talk, and other things that generally waste time, and then, when we go to turns he’s like well I think I can win this stat in the other, and therefore we should tie So during a local OK cool whatever but if I get a hold of him in a cup or a challenge with those points it’s definitely not something I’m cool with And I had other players ask me to be more focused on the game when I’ve been shuffling and trying to make casual small talk, especially when I first got started because I was new when I was nervous and most of them were really nice and really respectful about it You know One of the things I practice IRL is getting better at checking my prizes without necessarily rearranging (clumping) cards b4 I shuffle, And I found that doing a six pile shuffle in between matches really helps prevent mid match clumps, And the more games I play in person the faster I get at seeing what’s in the deck within one or two reasonable passes

[@tot.musica]

I'm fairly new to the Pokemon TCG myself, but in YGO we call this slow play. Which, is highly illegal to do and can either cause game losses or in more severe cases, entire match losses/disqualification. Intentionally stalling for time is a dick move, even in a locals setting. Locals are supposed to be either chill, or a place you can sweat it out with fellow players who are all trying to practice for big tourneys. No one likes a slow player or someone who intentionally breaks rules. Even in locals, I'd call a judge. It's not to be a stickler or anything, but that type of stuff ruins my fun and other people's too.

[@richardfreire4791]

Players just need to acknowledge that checking your own prize cards no matter what the method you use should be done in a time efficient manner for both your opponent and your own sake because you should do it efficiently with your own time in mind knowing that if you take too long youre also wasting your own time in the match. After you do so its in both players best interest to shuffle your deck quickly and properly.

[@robertbrowne4951]

First search you should get maybe 45 sec to 1 min but after that time should be cut

[@Oakwin_mb]

It's kind of odd that pokemon is just having conversations about this now when "mana weaving" a very similar thing has been banned in magic for years.

[@huk6249]

I disagree with the idea of declumping. It kind of feels like mana weaving in Magic, which to my knowledge is still a banned practice. Yes, ideally shuffling should cancel out your rearranging of the deck, but you don't always do a great job at shuffling every single time. So there could be games where your tampering could have lead to you winning, or at least having a better game than you should have even if you lose afterwards. It just feels like people who do it do it in hopes that it will have some sort of impact on the game. Like, why do it at all if you fully believe that shuffling your deck will undo it? If you fully believe that your shuffle will potentially reclump your cards, why bother declumping them? It just feels like you're trying to cheat by doing it.

[@SailboatAqua]

I'd like a video on what things to check prizes for for each archetype/top deck now that mention prize checking

[@ashmarten2884]

Decimping should be illegal due to the effect it’s attempted stacking. Even if you sufficiently randomize, it doesn’t change your intent.

[@DDD-lx7uq]

loving this ranting content. keep it up

[@nathanzondlo7393]

Declumping middle of the game is fucked up, but before the game I don"t care. It's not like you couldn't have already done the same thing in your hotel room before you hit the convention floor.

[@SpritePony]

Declumping is something I have A LOT of experience in seeing. It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, honestly. It's like... Why are you trying to manually change your deck and possibly try to stack? Just leave your shit where it is. If it clumps up, either your sleeves are sticking together and need cleaning (or better sleeves) or you need to shuffle better. Should be gone, honestly.

[@ryanm8832]

The azul gg rant is one of the simple pleasures in life

[@steadystackin7250]

You should always have to offer your opponent a chance to cut the deck.

[@AzulGG]

you do

[@yoshi20012003]

Yes, it should be banned. People do it with intent to stack and cheat hoping people don't shuffle properly (although one should always cut opponents deck and shuffle regardless)

[@shany6527]

declumping is dumb. as for clumping, clearly it is the best option for prize searching but i would hate it if they added a time constraint to the first search of the game. I have a buddy who lost partial use of his left hand, timing him on his ability to grip and fan through his deck seems dumb. He can still adeptly shuffle, draw and otherwise use his cards as needed but he struggles with fanning his deck to be able to review his prizes. Add in a number of people that may have less visible disabilities and additional time constraints seems pretty non inclusive. one thing we have done that has made it interesting when playing with people from our lgs, is we review 4 of the 6 prizes, shuffle them and we don't allow exclusive prize checking. 5 times out of 6 those two prize cards you didn't get to review aren't that important but on occasion you find yourself looking for your last switch out to win the game and it's in your prizes. not certain this the best way to play the game but having the occasional wrench in the game is more interesting than not.

[@Scott]

Nothing wrong with doing this before a game, or pile shuffling. If you do this during a game you should get a warning though.

[@robertbrowne4951]

I have no problem with the clumping and declump just when you take 10 years is when I say something

[@bugcatcherclips2072]

what sleeves are those

[@DKong1026]

What if each player had their own timer like in PTCGO / PTCGL ? Would that be any better? If someone is inefficient / slow while checking their prizes, that just hurts their time later on in the game / match.

[@ftb5786]

As someone who generally plays very fast, I'm a big supporter of this idea

[@boxkid759]

Judging nightmare.

[@miguelandrades3142]

You mean something like a chess timer? That sounds good in theory for fast / mid-paced decks, but not good for slow ones. I see your point

[@goozilla123]

​@@boxkid759how would this be a judging nightmare? You don't play on your opponent's turns like other tcg. There is no decision being made except like.. escape rope.

[@boxkid759]

@@goozilla123 well gameplay errors happen alot in tournament play. Sometimes these mistakes arent noticed until a turn or 2 after. The general rule of thumb is to rewind the game state so it's proper. What do you do with the timer then? You have no idea where time was at 2 turns ago. And giving a time extension wouldn't really be fair since one player may have taken way more time before that mistake was made because each player having equal time is the whole point of this right? We have a juniors division, these are little kids, I could for many instances where mistakes are made by lack of proper clock use. I also hate how the OC compared to how it is in Live. Lives timer system doesnt translate to irl play. You forget it shuffles your deck in less than a second. It orders all your cards during a search and everything is automated. 50 minutes for that Iive isn't a issue. You also forget that alot of decks just generally take longer to play due to how many actions are performed. These decks would get pushed out of the meta because they just don't have the time they need to execute their strategies. It also greatly puts newer players at a disadvantage because they just naturally take a little longer to make plays. Chess clockes or timers wouldn't be good in this game.

[@NeonTownExchange_Jack]

What about people writing down notes to figure out their Prize Cards

[@onedinoboi1795]

So if this is your opinion? How do you feel about people bringing a pen and note pad to prize check?

[@AzulGG]

I do it myself

[@enigmaticheart666]

This is cheating in every other card game, plain as. How is this even a discussion?

[@cultoftyler9045]

it doesn't do anything. it isn't cheating if you are shuffling properly.

[@amerillo1588]

What if we just allowed ppl to look at their prizes at the beginning. Shuffle em, then it's up to u to remember that info/write it down. Saves so much time.

[@Ryan_Loa]

are you supposed to know what's in your prize area? If not then yeah no

[@AzulGG]

ur not supposed to know but it's not against the rules to find out

[@erikbladh7464]

Rant videos make for both excellent content and excellent pasta

[@JO-iv7tl]

Prize checking is easier than people make it.

[@josealmanza3313]

Only 1 vstar marker per person lol❤

[@LeviairDragon]

Absolutely

[@rbb2543]

I usually declump and then go right into a 6 pile shuffle and the mash shuffle 7 times

[@makiah_s]

I 6 pile shuffle between every match, I’d call judge if some one 6 p shuffled mid game to get a ruling for our or the local scene in attending in

[@ZaphodBeeblebrox-sy8ey]

Any situation where you could declump is a situation where you are required to shuffle. If you shuffle properly, and actually present a randomized deck, then declumping should have no effect on the outcome of your deck. If it does, then you are not shuffling properly and are in violation of the rules. So, either it doesn't matter and you're wasting time, or it does matter, and you are cheating.

[@Binzob]

I can pile shuffle every time I go into my deck if you want? Cause that's the only other way to guarantee the cards will get declumped while shuffling.

[@ZaphodBeeblebrox-sy8ey]

@Binzob Tell me you don't understand randomization and shuffling without telling me. Pile shuffling is not a shuffle. It does not randomize. If you know it guarantees declumping, then you are not shuffling. I don't know what the specific rule is in Pokémon, but in Magic, you are allowed one pile shuffle at the beginning of the game to count your cards. Any more than that is slow play. Because like shuffling isn't shuffling. All you've done is cut the deck.

[@Binzob]

​@@ZaphodBeeblebrox-sy8ey Pile shuffling does randomise your deck though. If you're gonna argue it doesn't, you can also argue that all shuffling methods are not random through the same logic. And people aren't solely using pile shuffles, you pile shuffle once then throw in a few other shuffles of your choice. "If you know it guarantees declumping, then you are not shuffling". Brain dead logic. I know it guarantees declumping unlike other methods cause cards can get physically stuck together, so if you overhand shuffle or something you could do that 50 times and a group of 3 or 4 cards stay together. Is that truly random? Not really ay? And the cards you declumped can go back next to each other when you do your other shuffling method after pile shuffling. That's not the issue or the reason to pile shuffle. I don't give a shit if I draw the same card 3 times in a row, if I know they were actually randomised to be like that. And yes pile shuffling is slow play, I don't do it during games cause I don't slow play. I just pick out the clumped cards and put em somewhere else in the deck. Which is not an issue because deck is randomised right? And my opponent is even given the chance to ensure it's randomised, can even shuffle it themselves a few times as long as they aren't riffle shuffling.

[@wdililn]

@@Binzobpile shuffling isn’t randomization because there is knowledge about where every card is going. What makes riffle/mash shuffling random is human error with regards to forming piles and combining them together (we don’t create two perfect piles of n/2 every time, and we don’t combine the piles with each other in the same way every time) Perfect riffles/mashes are not random yea, but the whole point is that the player isn’t trying to make them perfect. Clumping is a possible outcome of a randomized deck, try a deck shuffler if you want to see how it can happen.

[@Binzob]

@@wdililn " knowledge about where every card is going" and who the fuck is gonna memorise that? Still gonna call a judge on you if you riffle shuffle my deck. I'll stick to pile shuffling at the start of each match or after siding, and declumping + overhand shuffling during games.

[@d_smittymane1443]

What sleeves do you use? 🧐

[@The_gogo_guy]

Love you'r contant

[@lolaepona9491]

Why are the vstar marker cards in the deck?

[@marcoscabezolajr.8408]

No reason

[@TobbsClare]

🤩

[@nelsonbabilonia4405]

In yugioh thats illegal cause it changes the game state and same thing with changing the order of cards in graveyard and i see it done in pokemon alot before using a card that takes cards from the discard

[@fakeout27]

everytime i see something like this it just makes me think how easier stuff would be if the tcg was just played through a client and not physically, cuts down on cheating significantly, and these debates never need to happen, as well as having faster games. i get tcg fans like traveling to go to the events and that doesn’t have to stop, but this game will never be truly competitive if we stick to the physical cards. but no one is ready to have that discussion

[@GoDzWarden]

People riffle shuffling Trading cards has always blown my mind

[@boxkid759]

What. Why.

[@GoDzWarden]

@@boxkid759 because why would you wanna bend up trading cards. I just mesh shuffle when it comes to trading cards

[@boxkid759]

@@GoDzWarden because to us competitors. They are simply tools used in a game which we are trying to win. Not actually used for collecting or meant to hold value.

[@GoDzWarden]

@@boxkid759 so if you got a deck worth 2k you just riffle shuffle it lol? Mesh shuffling is sufficient. Riffle shuffles are cringe n definitely rude to do to your opponents cards. At lest that’s how I feel

[@boxkid759]

@@GoDzWarden doing them to your opponents cards was never mentioned till you just did. That's irrelevant to what Im saying. And yeah. If that's what the deck costs it is what it is. Riffle is optimal and most of us just want that. Not cringe at all. What's cringe is playing this game and thinking your cards are safe regardless of how you shuffle.

[@imetzl9340]

Isnt hard to get each card in between each other card? When you riffle dont you think 2 cards might stay together over the course of 7 riffles? Pile shuffling into 7 piles at the beginning over a game would be the best answer to this, you gurantee no two cards that were together before stay together. Although if you didnt know they werent clumped before hand you may be clumping them. My argument would be if its not against the rules, doesnt add any time to a shuffle, and makes someone feel better through placebo than who really cares

[@AzulGG]

But like you said there is supposed to be a possibility of them staying together so at best it wastes time at worst ur deck is no loner considered sufficiently random or ur cheatting

[@imetzl9340]

@AzulGG Yea it might just come down to time. I tried keeping 3 different sets of 3 of same card and they separated after 7 riffles. I can see your point

[@wdililn]

The proved theory behind ~7 riffle/mash shuffles being sufficiently random involves exactly the phenomenon you described. Humans usually don’t recreate perfect riffles/mashes, and that’s why this method is considered random.

[@braveravier2565]

I personally have no problem with declumping. In Cardfight Vanguard we pretty much all declump. Having all triggers stacked is 100% game changing. Better safe than sorry.

[@bbexceed]

Declumping is illegal in VG tho, it's considered a form of stacking in official events

[@braveravier2565]

@@bbexceed I have never in 9.5 years of competitive VG heard that

[@bbexceed]

@braveravier2565 if you want an official ruling, Bushi Floor rulings "3.12. Placing Cards in sequence" states this if you'd want to verify yourself

[@bbexceed]

@@braveravier2565 If you want to check the ruling it's "3.12. Placing Cards in Sequence" in Bushiroad Floor Rules.

[@Binzob]

Anyone who has an issue with declumping needs to really get over themselves. Like yeah people who aren't trying to cheat will do their best to shuffle properly, but I aint riffle or mash shuffling my deck, and neither are you. I am willing to pile shuffle but do you want me to do that mid game? No right? So I'll just declump if I see 3 of the same card stuck together. And also waste of time? Yeah like 2 seconds so it doesn't matter. We all know non-obnoxious shuffling methods don't work 100% efficiently anyways.

[@starlazar699]

he says "declumping is NOT illegal" "declumping does nothing" "declumping is not cheating" "it doesnt matter if you declump" and then says "you should not declump" literally u just said it doesnt matter and it's not illegal, and u shouldnt tell people what to do because u dont like it

[@sh1nypantsgaming661]

Ability used markers should be banned. Removes the possibility of human error by not forcing players to keep track of what hasn’t be used already.

[@nathanzondlo7393]

Dmg dice should be banned. Removed the possibility of human error by not forcing players to keep track of what hasn't be damaged already.

[@nathanzondlo7393]

VSTAR markwrs should be banned. Removed the possibility of human error by not forcing players to keep track of who hasn't used their VSTAR already.

[@JO-iv7tl]

I don't care others use them but it bothers me when he wants me to use them in game too. He acts like I'm cheating when I played long enough I don't need them.

[@fluxdesiqn97]

@@JO-iv7tl its to protect you in case of a judge call that you can show you've used or not used an ability if your opponent tries to shark you out of a win. You don't need markers anyway you can just rotate the card but markers don't allow you to accidentally rotate a card you haven't used.

[@JO-iv7tl]

@@fluxdesiqn97 yes I rotate the cards.

[@Drew-ix5ih]

honestly bro you dropping the bag hella, biting the hand that feeds you with cheap parlor tricks. let me put it as simply as i can for you. pokemon is putting on a show and you are on the stage, if you wanna go against the establishment, cool. card player to card player, there's a game with much higher stakes and where pulling off tricks against the establishment pays way more, its called poker at the casino, but you'll get your fingers chopped for "i'm just declumping bro". but see, gambling is something we don't want to say is happening here when all these people assemble in these halls with their pokemon cards, really it's just a dog and pony show and while you're a talented card player you find yourself rising to the top, and doing so you fall under scrutiny of the viewers, any seasoned card player can watch and see with two eyes plain as day what's unfolding on a pokemon card stream. and appropriately it's called for what it is, idk how you don't get that, the audience absolutely watches and is like wtf is going on with all the stacking, now maybe they don't play pokemon and understand the importance of allllll the BS you just explained, but never the less to do what yall are doing is BOLD to say the least, you all know better bro. Now you can make a video and screech into the void of the internet all you want, it's not a good look at all. you ask me bro, you're the one on that stage, you're the one in the position to set an example. idk if you know this but there's a ton of little kids that love pokemon and see you as someone to look up to, don't paint yourself up as a poster child for the kind of folks that are quick to call these simple games a path to shiesty cheating casino gambling, ruined kids who have no grasp of honor. The win by any means neccessary attitude is often a tact attributed to a cheat my friend. and there's a ton of folks who would use this video to paint you up as the poster child of what happens to kids playing shiesty gambling games. but i imagine it's gonna take a while for this to sink in for you, so just carry on.

[@slugger4073]

What are you smoking and where can I get some?

[@AzulGG]

I would say who are you but I think what are you is more appropriate

[@Drew-ix5ih]

@@AzulGG not smoking enough to play pokemon "professionally" and try and pull the wool over some kids playing a childs game. definitely not enough to sit in front of a camera and try to explain the nuances of cheating, lmfao. the autism is outstanding.

[@ftb5786]

You're aware that your opponent can shuffle your deck afterwards right? Also it's considerably harder to pull of slight of hand shenanigans with sleeved cards