Should engineered stone be banned completely in Australia? | 7.30

[@ash-is-napping]

As consumers, we can help. We are about to do our kitchen. Our bathroom has engineered stone (we didn’t know) but we will be making a different choice for our kitchen. We stand with the workers who are being put at risk. Feel for these people who became sick before we knew, but we MUST act now that we know.

[@xkimopye]

As a tradie, thank you. I will do the same whenever I do my kitchen

[@Friendlyfirefish]

Are we doing the same with bricks?

[@xkimopye]

When Dr Karl said concrete dust was as bad as asbestos (might be an exaggeration) I knew I had to quit plumbing. The amount of houses being built on concrete slabs is insane, and when these houses become 20 years old people want renovations on them which means grinding huge amounts of concrete with doors closed so the dust doesn’t got through the rest of the houses. The dust is so thick you cannot see an inch in front of your face, and you cough up thick concrete mucus for the rest of the day. I’d like a ban on houses being built on slabs, and bring back suspended flooring on stumps. Protect the next generation of young tradies.

[@SiliconBong]

Protect the next generation of young tradies. 'kin oath !

[@terrencebushell9588]

I was reading about the Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster where over 700 workers died from silicosis due to poor working conditions, lack of personal protective equipment, dodgy practises and cost cutting. It's almost 100 years later and people are still dying from this entirely preventable disease...what a disgrace...

[@anthonycumming]

I worked in a factory with no dust masks or anything breathing it in..the lunch room where I worked was exactly the same as what he explained 3 years I worked full on with this I was 20 till 23 doing this job we also had to grind MDF bords with no dust masks my lungs are terrible now... I'm now 40 I would always have a shower at the end of the day and cough and sneeze up so much of that crap it I still remember the taste.. when I asked about being safe to breathe in or not I was told it was totally safe...I will be getting my lungs checked now

[@byza101]

Why didn’t you buy yourself a respirator. I’ve been working in the building industry for 30 years. One of the first thing I bought myself was a respirator, you gotta look after number 1 bro.

[@anthonycumming]

​@@byza101I never had the education of ppe back then...I can't even be in dusty areas now without it having an effect on my lungs I have I'm missing quarter of my left lung from this

[@marble204]

It’s all about money and greed, these engineered stone companies knew this product was a danger to the tradies years ago, I worked as a stonemason for 44 years, mainly using marble, I came to Australia in 2006 I was tested before hand for my Australian visa in Ireland, I had lung function and chest X-rays on my lungs and was given the all clear. I had never used these products before and was never warned of the massive difference in silica content. I was diagnosed with silicosis in 2020 and left the trade and will never return to it. Caesarstone now producing a stone with ONLY 40% silica is too little too late. Ban this engineered stone for good and save tradies lives.

[@tungphamthanh1273]

Have you use ppe while you work with it or not? If you didn’t protect yourself dont blame for the product.

[@marble204]

You give me the impression of one or two scenarios, you either have a vested interest in engineered stone or your ignorance is startling I’ve always used PPE, it protected me for years when using Marble (3%) silica but not being made aware by manufacturers or employers that engineered stone contained up to 97% silica gave us no chance and that is is why so many tradies are suffering from this disease.

[@therealrussellsmyth]

@@marble204well said

[@tersy9862]

I love her scientific explanation, you get what you get 😂 The comparison to asbestos is totally stupid because it was relatively easy to ban asbestos as a material. Banning engineered stone almost does nothing to prevent silicosis. Working with concrete which is everywhere. Can also cause silicosis. Are we going to band drilling cutting and grinding concrete? I think not. What was needed was better regulation in the kitchen benchtop industry

[@KiwiCatherineJemma]

(Having grown up in NZ but lived a good chunk of my life in Aussie also...). Most kitchen benchtops I've seen are Formica (ok registered trade mark, or another similar product, some folks call it Laminex) benchtop with a stainless steel sink. This place I live in now, a rental flat, is 40 years old and never had a renovation/remodel. The Formica benchtop isn't quite like new, but still in plenty good condition. All-in-one Stainless Steel benchtops with integral sinks, yeah seen a handful, things like workplace lunchrooms, where a robust long lasting counter-top is needed. Sounds to me like those Aussie politicians that have refused to ban Engineered Stone already, perhaps received a few big envelopes of cash from those paid Lobbyists in Canberra, eh ?

[@jeffreystorer4966]

Most trouble with old school kitchen lament is because it's not sealed, underneath a couple' coats of quality undercoat stops it absorbing moisture

[@ozwrangler.c]

Not sure my kitchen is worth this risk. PPE is a last line of defence against hazardous materials, so comments that blame-the-victim are out of line. PPE fails at times and humans make errors.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

MDF in in the same league as engineered stone and they almost banned it 20 years ago. That is why both have the same PPE requirements and to this day very few installer follow the require safety procedures

[@ether4211]

​@@IndenturedKZbinSlaveMDF does not contain RCS dust which is what causes silicosis. There is no safe level of exposure to RCS because it is so fine it can lodge deep into the lungs. All your claims mean is that the manufacturer misled the regulator into thinking engineered stone was as safe as MDF. Now we know they were wrong and we are facing an epidemic unique to people working with stone - not wood.

[@gregpointing7228]

It is not just synthetic stone that is an issue. Any concrete product contains up to 40% silica and is drilled and cut routinely often with minimal protection. The key to using these products is to use proper control measures which stop dust generation at source and remove it from the environment. Australian developed products are available.

[@taranullius9221]

Yes. No worker should be subject to the risk of health damage for someone's desire for aesthetics (while simultaneously being a tight-a). "PPE it" isn't an acceptable risk assessment in OHS (though it is in capitalism). You remove unnecessary hazards first. This is a plain unnecessary hazard. Get it gone.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

The documentation on required PPE is still basicly the same as MDF and has been around since 2000 when i started in construction. Wear a p2 mask minimum and use HEPA filters with air extractors in an isolated cutting room.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

yes it was a pain in the ass but that what we had to do, or have WHO (safety officer) shut us down until we were compliant

[@0158bx]

I suffered lung problem before I came to australia, it was absolutely a nightmare, took year to recover,luckily fully recovered, pls care about the workers who work with those stones, the dust kill.

[@grandmothergoose]

It *could* still be used, on strict condition that employers make damn sure that their employees wear ALL the appropriate PPE, no skimping on anything, and increase the PPE requirements for it; make sure factories are environmentally safe as well, no dust escaping, proper clean up and dumping procedures; and only ever cut wet. But then again, given the number of companies that can't seem to follow even a simple health and safety protocol if it was towing them around, and the number of employees that poohoo and ignore safety regs and think "she'll be right mate", it's probably better to ban the engineered stone, unless it's low silica (equivalent silica levels to other similar materials such as concrete and natural stone).

[@xkimopye]

My employer made me break up asbestos with hose water spraying on it to “protect me” and every other tradie boss had the same attitude. We need this shit gone because there is zero chance employers will suddenly change their ways. And even if the bench tops went in to strict standards, when the kitchen is renovated in 20 years, the kid ripping it out will also have to deal with this shit. It just needs to go.

[@taranullius9221]

I've worked many years in OHS. They don't. That perfect environment will never exist. Enforcement on business and worker end is a nightmare and even if you get 100% compliance, PPE isn't 100% prophylactic. Never will be. This isn't a necessity utility, it's an aesthetic choice that we can do without.

[@taranullius9221]

@@xkimopye Great point on future risk too. We didn't learn from Asbestos, apparently (or the nature of capitalism/right wing deregulation).

[@taranullius9221]

@@xkimopye I've seen sparkies drill into asbestos metreboards with no PPE. OHS is a bad industry. You're bailing out the Titanic with a thimble.

[@just_passing_through]

Short answer, yes. Long answer, also yes.

[@charlibravo371]

People don't understand that stainless steel can be come far superior to any stone and easier to maintain. Currently its just as expensive but once engineered stone is banned it will be made in high quantity and hence reduce cost.

[@Keepmywifesnameoutyafucknmouth]

Complainer, it's not exactly golf with it's multi-thousand dollar equipment and playing fees. If your really good enough use social media to get noticed by millions instead of relying on the luck of one person to hopefully discover you.

[@courtneypuzzo2502]

@Charlibravo371 yeah for some people Stainless steel is too surgical the last place I remember seeing stainless steel Counters was in the back room of my uncle's corner store when I was a child that was the butcher shop/sandwich making area

[@charlibravo371]

@@courtneypuzzo2502 yeah I agree. It is certainly industrial like.

[@antonroux6737]

the aesthetics are irrelevant people are dying from it

[@tsunamis82]

@@antonroux6737we had a steel sink unit before kitchen renovation. It was scratched, dented and just plain ugly. Stayed at a place last night, that has only been opened for ten days. The stainless steel sinks are already scratched. We did not use engineered stone.

[@Mike-ry4ti]

Ban it 100%. This exact same crap happened with the asbestos industry, how many times does this need to occur before the wankers in suits peddling this crap face some accountability?

[@downeyd88]

Ha! I was working on a site today and asked the guys using it if it was natural stone and then i saw caesarstone written on it and these guys were just using hole saws dry to drill holes into the benchtops. Fair to say i got off that level for a while.

[@kerrypatrickheron8389]

I am for Protecting workers, but this will be a huge dent tp jobs I am from the building industry and know at least 30 people who are going to loose there jobs. There are thousands if jobs that have huge risk that are not focused on miners concrete cutters cleaners and actual stone workers who need to constantly cut stine and have a higher dust exposure cause if the constant cutting. Maybe such a huge impact to the building industry should have someone from the industry have a voice also with a doctor so the job is not impartial. Hopefully people domt mind the huge increase to building nearly all stone contain silica so including bot engineered stone. They talk about asbestos I am still exposed to asbestos weekly is the government going to make a tansk force to get rid of all existing manufavtured stome cause.

[@MandarinDog]

Why is this not being banned ffs

[@nickc6882]

Absolutely not. But it should be Mandatory to make it from glass sand. Silicosis risk is 98.5% less because the process of turning sand into glass changes the silica from crystalline to amorphous silica. Amorphous silica does not cause silicosis.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

hen they would still suffer from Pneumoconiosis from the dust, proper controls are directed by manufacture but most dont follow them.

[@nickc6882]

@@IndenturedKZbinSlave and this is why we still have problems. Someone suggests a solution that reduces risk for the main specific issue by 98.5% and you bring up an unrelated issue that it doesn’t solve. You are correct. Now explain to me how your comment leads to better outcomes ? If you can’t, then explain what benefits you thought would come from making it ?

[@feicheng7022]

engineered stone is great product. the problem is workers not aware of the safety procedures and not wearing proper safety equipment. I have personally witnessed the worker cutting the stone dry with dust everywhere in front of my house. I asked the guy if he should wear mask or it may cause silicosis. he just laughed and said Nah.... with proper safety awareness and safety equipment. Engineered stone is probably the best choice for kitchen bench.

[@ether4211]

If your product requires cutting/grinding and is known to cause dust that damages the lungs it is a BAD product. Manufacturers chose to sell products that were obviously unsafe and misled customers, workers and regulators into thinking it was not harmful, just like they did with asbestos and tobacco smoking. Blaming the victim for not being educated and wearing PPE ignores that no amount of PPE can make a product with 'no safe level of exposure' safe. Safer benchtop materials existed before engineered stone like stainless steel - trying to say otherwise is to promote the industries lies.

[@m0rthaus]

If the problem is just the workers, then why is there a far higher incidence of silicosis with engineered stone than natural stone? Anecdotal evidence is low quality evidence.

[@xkimopye]

It is just one of so, so many things that is dangerous as a tradie, you become ignorant of dangerous things because you are exposed to dangerous things day in and day out, and you develop a “I don’t care right now, I just need to get this job done” attitude and that’s why we need it gone.

[@feicheng7022]

@@m0rthaus Engineered stones are probably more harmful when not wearing safety equipment when cutting. If proper water wet cutting technique being used and proper PPE worn properly, silicosis chance will be very low.

[@ether4211]

@@feicheng7022 IF IF IF and even then the risk is still 'very low' not zero. How many people do you think should have their lives put at risk in order to keep this unsafe product on the market?

[@jeffreystorer4966]

It's proven to be deadly ,ppe is not a solution

[@byza101]

Not on it’s own… correct practice along with coreect ppe can be.

[@ether4211]

​@@byza101so can asbestos... But people were already given the chance to use it with proper PPE/controls - but it became clear that this didn't work because a. It was very expensive/difficult to enforce and b. There is no safe level of exposure - meaning that even 1 mistake could kill someone.

[@byza101]

@@ether4211 I can’t speak for the factories, but as an apprentice I had to cut my fair share of asbestos as well as remove the shit on almost every job we did. I either refused to do it as there was no ppe and then I bought my own as there were kids writing my boss evey other week asking for an apprenticehip so I didn’t want to lose my job. Point being, I’ve always looked after myself.

[@ether4211]

@@byza101 looking after yourself is good but better is to look out for each other - how many of that employers apprentices went on to get sick because they didn't feel safe saying no or couldn't afford a mask? Meanwhile the employer got away scott free.

[@artofstoneco]

Natural quartzite has a higher percentage of silica than engineered stone just so yall know

[@JT_2024-c8j]

Ban the cutting without PPE. What next, ban welding because if you don’t wear eye protection you’ll get arc eye? The problem is the “she’ll be right attitude”.

[@wanderingambience799]

Ban it I say. Be courageous please and put our peoples lives and health ahead of companies profits. There are other materials to use.

[@Stungray22]

Ban it yesterday

[@rickyroaster]

99% of the time, its the idiots that's dont WANT to wear PPE, and the employer turning blind eye. Risk assessments are for putting control measures in place. Australian government way off point on this, fine and keep fining companies hard until they protect their employees. So what about all the other products that get dry cut and produce silica dust??? Exactly pathetically inadequate politics. It's the nuckle scrapers attitude to ppe you need to change not ban everything.

[@AlanMitchellAustralia]

Yes, and let's also ban glyphosphate (Roundup) in Australia

[@stpOwner]

Dont ban it, but force chain of custody laws so that the product is wet cut in proper factories. Not cowboys running around with 9inch grinders and a tshirt covering there faces.

[@xkimopye]

Doesn’t quite work that easily, If a measurement is wrong, It needs to be cut, if the owner wants to change something it needs to be cut, if the owner wants to later add a billi tap it needs to be cut, when the kitchen gets renovated in a couple of decades it needs to be cut. You see all this stuff happen all the time on the job site. Let’s get rid of this thing that destroys lives. Makes no sense to have it anymore.

[@sramdavies405]

So why don't we ban cigarettes???

[@byza101]

Before you ban it, how bout enforcing WHS regulation? I have been into a number of factories where they are manufacturing benchtops. The workers are exclusively Asia, the cheapest masks in operation, dust everywhere.. I would expect to see wet cutting, effective dust extraction and capture and electric respirators at the bare minimum, but no

[@ether4211]

They tried regulation - it failed because employers didn't want to spend the money on PPE and training/enforcement. Then Safe Work Australia found out that there was NO safe level of exposure - meaning that even if you had all the PPE in the world just one small mistake could kill someone.

[@zedddddddddddddddd]

People who knowingly put other people’s lives at risk shouldn’t be given a second chance. They already know it’s wrong so clearly can’t be trusted to do the right thing, even if the penalties are a bit tougher or slightly more likely to be enforced.

[@ether4211]

@@zedddddddddddddddd indeed yet the ABC thinks it's okay to give them a national platform to try and lobby for continued use of engineered stone.

[@byza101]

@@zedddddddddddddddd 100%

[@GuoUnit]

I wonder if Australia banned cigarettes

[@JB.99999]

If not, then may as well bring back asbestos it's basically the same risk

[@tsunamis82]

Our electricity meter board has asbestos in it. The electrician was going to remove it with no protection saying that by the time it kicked in he would be either dead or close to it because of his current age.

[@IndenturedYoutubeSlave]

MDF has the same risk and has the same Safety procedures for cutting and shaping

[@JB.99999]

@@IndenturedKZbinSlave no it doesn't?

[@JB.99999]

@@tsunamis82 very ignorant

[@wl1896]

Do the right thing, ban it

[@danielrichardson3613]

Yep.

[@donman92]

Cant you just wear proper protection?

[@ooopsyantsoshadrytv-2911]

get rid of it

[@Bathrezz1]

Such a shame that the guy didn't take matters into his own hands and wore his own PPE. 'this dust can't be good for my lungs... nah she'll be right'

[@danielrichardson3613]

Asbestos doesn't taste that bad either

[@byza101]

Too many people rely on the company to buy their stuff, crazy

[@ether4211]

​@@byza101it is the employers legal responsibility to provide a safe workplace. It is insane that people think it's okay to expect staff to provide their own PPE - especially when proper PPE can cost thousands of dollars. If your employer won't provide PPE employees should notify the regulators and check your contract as EBAs often have a section on stopping work if it's unsafe.

[@byza101]

@@ether4211 I agree with you to an extent. You should never put your own safety in somebody elses hands. If you don’t want to spend a few hundred dollars on your own ppe that’s not for me to judge and yea you should go above your employer and get it sorted. Howver, I have only ever seen Asian guys working in these factories and if I combine that with a lot of what I see on site, then they are not bothered and not educated enough. Which is why I believe current legislation should be enforced before banning is considered.

[@ether4211]

@@byza101 so to be clear the employer gets asian workers to work without proper PPE knowing they won't know to file for workers comp or sue if they get sick. This is exactly why Safe Work is pushing for a ban because employers and manufacturers have proven that they cannot be trusted to self regulate.

[@marciocarioka]

Any attempt to have industrial production will be crushed in Australia. Wake up! It is a PPE issue, no need to ban engineered stone. Australia needs to be able be self-sufficient and make things in Australia.