Should Epic Games Store Exclusives Be Boycotted? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Watch this week's Slightly Civil War episode on whether or not virtual reality will ever go mainstream: www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/will-virtual-reality-ever-go-mainstream-slightly-civil-war/

[@Musdude9346]

Videos are getting better, make more! Btw 1.25x

[@ChocoBeanChat]

I am definitely for the Epic Store. I can only deal with so many low budget anime hentai sex simulators. It’s like watching porn on Cinemax. Fun until I view pornhub.

[@seamon9732]

Encouraging anti-competitive practices and saying it's pro-competition is dumb. If you disagree, I have war propaganda to sell to you. "Make the world a better more peaceful place by committing genocide, Heil Netanyahu!"

[@skillcollector9800]

Hello! Just curious if the podcast with the post-debate conversation will be continuing. I subscribed to it but it seems like they stopped coming out after the first two episodes

[@theescapist]

@@skillcollector9800 It's on iTunes, Spotify and Soundcloud now, we stopped posting it on Bruzzsprout. Search "The Escapist" and you'll find our channel.

[@Bodiggle465]

I always love how much Jack is entertained by Yahtzee's arguments.

[@aidanhennessy5314]

He’s our in video analog

[@Penguinmanereikel]

Bodiggle465 it’s infectious

[@TheMightyBean321]

I feel like he does it to stall for time

[@mixoops2212]

2:50 "There's always a ceiling, where people will not spend." Me: *Side-eyes the Sims community* Edit: Spelling

[@markolenickjr.7431]

*Ceiling*

[@TheQuilanvos]

And CK2. Don't need to go over the hundreds of dollars of DLC that game has.

[@briidovulon]

And the Civ series

[@Sir_Bucket]

And every Paragon game ever

[@mono_vt]

Flight Simulator community flying overhead with their ~£4,000 worth of virtual planes. inb4 someone mentions Star Citizen.

[@liorean]

Fun argument. Here's My argument, with showcase, Phoenix Point. I crowdfunded Phoenix Point. Pledges were to get a Linux version, DRM-free on GOG, at launch. EPIC not only blocked the pledge alternatives of Steam or GOG, thje also blocked DRM-free release, and they also killed Linux support. And Phoenix Point isn't the only game they've killed DRM-free and Linux support for. Here's my standpoint: If you claim PC support, that means Linux/Mac OS X/ Win7+. Not just Windows. If you take crowdfunding, you may not take offers such as exclusivity deals unless those limitations were already included in the crowdfunding pitch. And finally, DRM or "if-the-servers-(or-just-connectivity)-go-down-or-are-discontinued-the-game-is-no-longer-functional" is a direct NO on purchase...

[@Rain_lights]

Quite a good argument I'd say

[@TheDoctorOfThrills]

wait they can do that? thats robbery! you crowdfunded aka bought the game before it was released, and they made it inaccessible to you, thats complete villainy

[@ticklestwocoffees]

backing something in crowd funding is not the same as a pre-order

[@williambeetge]

I feel your pain. Same thing happened with MechWarrior 5 at the last minute. At least I got a refund.

[@falcononpc9845]

@@ticklestwocoffees he only gave his money because of the promises the devs made. Same difference

[@dovyd84]

I love the idea that people only want to boycott the Epic store so it "won't be the Epic store" according to Jack. Because here i am thinking the main goal in boycotting the Epic store is to make sure they stop the exclusivity deals and improve their store from its lackluster state.

[@KorboQ]

There's a lot of people in the replies who say their only reason for boycotting is China, so... Kinda.

[@Nuggette]

Honestly the whole video is pretty bad, Yatzee is making jokes and is just essentially mocking people for disagreeing with epic games store exclusives while Jack pretty much does the same but one ups Yatzee by painting those people as conspiracy theorists that are just too lazy to click on another icon on their desktop. Also Yatzee keeps talking about how these exclusive deals are sooooo good for indie devs but wasn't one of the first exlusive games Borderlands 3 and now one of the newest ones AC Valhalla? I had no idea that Gearbox and Ubisoft are indie devs

[@KorboQ]

@@Nuggette Just because big devs are taking them doesn't mean that they're not also good for indie devs. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

[@dirge7459]

@@Nuggette This is the Escapist though. For years they've just let Yhatzee mock their own userbase and gamers as a whole, so it doesn't surprise me that years and years later, that site is still going for rage and toxic war clicks, while still using the same man who is known for generating them.

[@Nuggette]

@@KorboQ Oh no I understand that they are useful for indie devs, hell if I was given the offer by Epic I would think about accepting it. But I'm saying this to counter the point of "Oh look at Epic they are such saints of indie developers" while it's pretty obvious that this is them gating games that the public are interested in so people use their shitty store.

[@darknessvamp]

Yathzee: "Epic Store curates their games." Also Yathzee on reviews for Epic Store Exclusives: "What is this junk." Edit: Another golden one: Yathzee: "Epic store is offering a nice quiet room away from the rowdy partying room where we can have a nice serious conversation on their legitimate products..." *The Epic Store doesn't allow user reviews or have functionally for people to discuss their games whether in a forum or comment system.* Also GOG exists.

[@JohnSmith-km4sv]

@s l I've never seen anyone who criticized Steam for curating their stuff. Quite contrary, when the floodgates just began opening and Valve started changing Greenlight rules, a lot of hate came towards these decisions and how Digital Homicide and such started to pollute the store. People have been praying for some form of curation for the last 5 or so years, but alas, Valve realized that they can do almost anything and get little to no bad rep for that.

[@darknessvamp]

Ichijo Festival I mean the joke was that Yahtzee uses the curation as a positive but regularly has a negative impression of the epic exclusive games, for example Shenmue 3, but okay. Yes it’s unlikely that I’ve seen Steam’s full library and yes I have seen a number of the junk games that pop up on there but I have also used Steam since like 2007 so I understand how to use it properly to search for stuff I’m interested in. I was also around to witness the full cycle of: Indie Devs want to get on Steam and complain about competition with AAA games and curation was too strict -> Greenlight is made available -> Indie Devs celebrate it and use it enthusiastically ->Indie devs complain it’s too slow/other games abuse it/not enough visibility -> Valve removes Greenlight as an option as it thinks about what to do -> Indie Devs request lax curation and easy access to publishing -> Steam Direct is made available -> Indie Devs celebrate it and use it enthusiastically -> Indie Devs complain about there being too many submissions/not enough visibility/too much competition -> Now: Indie Devs want stronger submission and curation guidelines. Honestly it’s ridiculous that people complain about it now when it’s exactly where they wanted it and is currently the best possible model for everyone to use. Not to mention Valve is doing the next best thing and experimenting with better search options to solve the issues presented by both Customers and Developers.

[@smilemore7431]

How does gog work though. I made an account but it doesn’t let me in the fucking thing.

[@Drybread]

@@JohnSmith-km4sv It was a while back like more than 5 years ago. It was really hard to get indie games on Steam so Valve tried Steam Greenlight and it was abused by voters and then Valve just let every thing in which is kinda lazy but it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

[@andrasbonitz3491]

Also, the appearance of curation is illusion. It is easy to browse Epic's library because it is comparatively small compared to Steam's behemoth library. Give it a few years and a desperate need for more games, and Epic's library will be just as stuck with massive amount of garbage titles as Steam's.

[@brycejohansen7114]

I understand that these debates are decided by a coin flip but Every good point Yahtzee brings to the table about the Epic store can easily be referred to GoG instead ..except GoG does it better and without the strong arm tactics.

[@kionashi]

and how many years has GoG being in the market? and is still a tiny fraction of the PC market....they are just the shinning example that being the better store is not enough to get people to use your product.....people who owns hundreds of Steam games don't feel the need to even look at any other stores if they can find pretty much everything in Steam....

[@brycejohansen7114]

@@kionashi Which is a shame because GoG 2 launcher is awesome. Screw the other launchers, for I have the KING of launchers... mwahahaha

[@cursinsquirl]

@Vox4l The exact point in relation to the original comment would be that you CAN say those things about GoG as well, but GoG isnt a successful COMPETITOR with steam because "being the better store is not enough to get people to use your product."

[@ozma2985]

@@Miralage you seem to be completely ignoring his point, which is that GOG has done exactly what you're saying Epic needs to do (have better features), and still has basically no market share.

[@pjuskr]

@@colin3ds1 GoG/CD Projekt Red are developers as well. It is the company that made The Wither series and are making Cyberpunk 2077. I think two big reasons they have not been able to get as big of a share of the market, has been largely doe to the fact that they started the store as a place to have older games and keep them updated to work for modern pc's instead of the full market, and also because of their no DRM policy. Many AAA game studios won't sign a deal with them because of this no DRM policy, as they have gotten the idea that using stuff like Denuvo, always online DRM etc, is a must to get as much of the users to buy the product as possible and avoid pirating.

[@ErikWarhammer]

The real winner is... GOG. Need I say more?

[@IBRHEEMGT9600]

I really feel smpthy wtih GOG, they provide free-drm but no one cares about it that much

[@somethickblackman8113]

That’s my favorite pc store, I just wish they had all the big games on there like steam. I haven’t used the epic launcher because it’s anti consumer, and because it might be spyware.

[@shaunroberts2037]

I very much prefer GOG, mainly cause they curate but also cause I was raised on old games. Steam however has the advantage of pricing with my local currency so more expensive games tend to work out 20-30% cheaper. Also whomever sets up Dosbox for steam does so in the most user unfriendly manner.

[@Taabituubi]

@@cupsnlantern Exclusive how? They were valve's own games? Or the developer simply didn't want to sell it anywhere else?

[@Epinardscaramel]

Yes

[@benzur3503]

Neither of you focused on the exclusivity much beyond the early arguments and it just deteriorated into “should we hate epic more or should we hate steam more”

[@Sir_Bucket]

Because both are bad lol. Epic store is not nearly as developped as Steam, and I'm not even sure Steam is developped today. The version of Steam we have now has been around for so long that I'm asking when will Valve start to improove it

[@bunay6163]

@@Sir_Bucket so you ignore the recent library remake, all the steam labs tests, lots of improvements on steam vr and all the sale events with custom artwork

[@Golem29]

@@Sir_Bucket Steams quality control is pretty bad, but atleast they're not glorified spyware for the Chinese government

[@MrSmaste]

@@cupsnlantern Chyna vely good 10 social credit score added your account thank you if you prease

[@k3rmit568]

@@MrSmaste silence Redditor

[@tjones1406]

"the epic store is a quiet room away from the rowdiness where we can discuss the games" not without reviews you can't EDIT: also not without a dedicated community hub.

[@atoaster2070]

You mean the reviews that have been hijacked by pissy fanboys complaining about something as arbitrary as having to use a different launcher?

[@Wylie288]

@@atoaster2070 yeah imaging pretending reviews on steam are relevant or even about the games lol

[@richardvlasek2445]

steam reviews are the intellectual equivalent of the simpsons tire fire

[@YourFatherVEVO]

@@atoaster2070 Still better than metacritic

[@jeromefournier9667]

@61 Cygni Yes then you can use your brain (that I assume you have) and go read the comments, if the reason for negative review is something you care about then you don't buy the game, if it's a reason you don't care about then you know you can buy the game anyway.

[@AdamFunk]

"Well that's just not reasonable, is it? These days you get terrorists who just want the destruction of the west. And that's...not really a tenable negotiation position. You've got to give us a little bit. What if we just destroyed half of the west?" I'm always in chuckling awe of Yahtzee's wit, even in real-time conversations.

[@zema9401]

"All the Features that Steam has could be added to Epic" But they dont.

[@DKannji]

Exactly, the EGS has been on market for nearly 2 years with Steam and GOG Galaxy as great examples of feature complete launchers, and yet, Epic has added nothing to their launcher. And the kicker is both examples have been around for 12+ years and done all the hard work and stumbling that ESG doesn't need to do. But then again, ESG was never made with the developer or costumer in mind.

[@eggsamillion]

The only useful ones were the market, workshop and reviews. No one uses the god awful voice chat and the communities are flooded with bots.

[@DKannji]

@@eggsamillion And yet, EGS doesn't have more than 1/3 of that.

[@IronCakeN]

5:38 I don't think Yahtzee's argument holds here. Most people I think aren't against the concept of Epic Store as a competitor to steam, I think we could all be in favour of that, but against the specific practice of brute forcing a market share not by offering any better services but by effectively buying the rights to monopolize the distribution rights on certain games.

[@orels1_]

Yeah true. The main issue there is steam's price parity policy that prohibits other stores to offer lower base price than steam, hence why its really hard to compete with it as most people only care about the price, if you can't offer lower price - then most people will be too lazy to leave the platform that is already there and connected, even if the platform itself offers better performance and some extra features (like gog galaxy 2 for example). So like its a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don't kinda situation. Price parity is something that is causing a lot of industries to stagnate, gaming stores included.

[@IronCakeN]

@@orels1_ Could you explain why price parity doesn't allow other distributors to have competitive pricing? I'm not sure I quite follow the logic.

[@starfusion76]

@@orels1_ I'm pretty sure it's not a thing. Games are being sold at lower prices all the time.

[@Richard-sy1ej]

Cool. So you've never ever bought a console and think everyone should boycott those too because they have exclusives?

[@IronCakeN]

@@Richard-sy1ej I haven't actually bought a console, I'm on PC, but I don't have anything against them. So I don't really care if people do or don't, but my point stands that you can't defend Epic on the grounds that "more competition is better" when the reason people are boycotting is not because they dont want competition, but because Epic is using their money to buy their way out of competition.

[@AbaddonDrums]

I was always bothered by that "Steam is full of garbage" argument. I mean, sorting tools exist for this reason. I never, ever had any problems finding good games to play on Steam, even those obscure ones, it only takes a few minutes of honest searching, but no, people always want to have it all delivered to them on a silver platter (and even this function is available in steam labs if I'm correct). If someone is not willing to familiarize himself with the store basic functionalities it's not the store's problem. If my dumb ass can find valuable games there, anyone can.

[@templariclegion2826]

I agree with you, but the same argument can be said about Epic.

[@lambdachi107-gamingandmusi2]

Exactly! During the sales of old when I was using the Discovery Queue to grind out trading cards, I was finding all sorts of games that sparked my interest. Now I've yet to play some of those that I bought for crazy-good deals, but the ones I did play were pretty good / functioning as intended. I feel like you have to deliberately go out of your way to find a lot of the bad stuff, or be a games critic and be told about them, which is a whole other can of worms best left unopened.

[@tylerpayne7467]

Not all people who use search features are savvy with them. Sometimes people who are sensitive to gore or inappropriate content get recommended games like that. Loot boxes always spring to mind, because it isn't always clear that a game may have them, and they can be dangerous to a specific type of person. I can see the angle those people are coming from, even if I've only ever had a few close calls before purchase. I rather dislike the argument "I haven't had any problems with it so there is no problem". I mean no offense, but this is the tone I perceived this in. Take it with a grain of salt.

[@tarrker]

I would say that it's way more complicated than that. I mean sure you and I might be good at finding what we want but, not everyone is like that. Most of the visibility comes from the suggested stuff and unless you're constantly browsing the store buying stuff Steam is gonna suggest an awful lot of crap to you. Of course all of this can probably be countered with user reviews but, there's another fucking asterisk. How many of those Steam user reviews are pure hyperbole? I've bought a LOT of games I hated based on glowing reviews and avoided a LOT of games I loved because of the opposite.

[@AbaddonDrums]

@@doltBmB That doesn't change my point. And I was alive way before Steam was even a thing.

[@NazoKira]

Yhatzee: "Steam has all the games, and it has seen no reason to improve for years" I think Steam gave out more features lately like Remote Play Together ( Where local co-op multiplayer only can now play online co-op through streaming ). Changes through workshop and even adds Steam Labs that could benefit developers.

[@Taabituubi]

Don't forget their efforts in Proton.

[@Megalomaniakaal]

@@kildeer Well, so far that one's a con. But future will tell, I suppose.

[@zacharyheine4177]

Competition has improved the market

[@starfusion76]

@@ichijofestival2576 Epic is not really a competition to Steam.

[@Cruxin]

I happen to like the library redesign. While performance might be a legitimate issue for some, different != bad and I don't think it's objectively bad UI/design in it's own right. As for the idea that they're being pushed by Epic, I think that's ignorant and a poor approximation of timeframes - I'm fairly sure some of this stuff existed/was in development before Epic even launched. Epic has literally nothing but exclusives, the free games and Fortnite as a crutch to cover the fact that they serve no actual competition or feature alternative to Steam in any comparable way. Noone in their right mind would buy a game on Epic over the same game on Steam, even if they support both, which I think is a pretty good indication of "competition".

[@bigbuckss4303]

The difference between console exclusives and Epic Store exclusives is that console companies, like Sony and Microsoft, own different studios that can make games for them. This means that Sony and Microsoft would try to compete with each other on who can make better exclusives. This leads to them trying to strive for better exclusives that consumers can enjoy. Exclusives on the Epic Store are just games that Epic decided to keep for a limited amount of time so that people go to their store instead of Steam. That means that there's no room for constant improvement, and it all ends with consumers being screwed over.

[@falcononpc9845]

Copying this

[@josiahvock5675]

Plus Sony actually directly funds game development while not affecting the developer’s vision. Epic just rocks up and strong arms developers into their side with lots of money for a completed game.

[@Dimencia]

The improvement happens from the game studios that were able to make a bigger, better game with the increased budget, and make more money from the release with the better developer cuts, while having complete creative freedom. That indie studio that just became successful can then go on to make more and better games. The cost to consumers of supporting that developer? Clicking a different icon to play the game

[@KorboQ]

@@Dimencia It's not just clicking a different icon though. That's like saying "why don't you just use internet explorer instead of Firefox? It's just clicking a different icon!"

[@Dimencia]

@@KorboQ That's actually a great example. For work, I often open IE instead of Firefox or Chrome because some (old proprietary) sites only really work in IE. And it is, in fact, just clicking a different icon. Sure, IE doesn't have the plugins Chrome does, but if a site only works in IE? It's no effort whatsoever to just use IE

[@spork8655]

I recently started buying all my games from GoG when possible. There are a lot of games you can't get there, but once I got a taste of modern games without the DRM bullshit, I went all-in on supporting them. I even bought a few old favorites on GoG that I already have on Steam. I'm going to buy Cyberpunk 2077 from GoG too. Oh, and fuck Epic. If they want to release games on their store that's fine, but specifically paying millions of dollars to lock a game to one platform is garbage and I hate it. It's like console exclusives but dumber.

[@NoahRodriguezShow]

Definitely not as dumb as console exclusives because Epic exclusivity is not as prohibitive as a $300+ cost barrier for a console. The majority of Epic friction comes from people not wanting to download another app, really.

[@crownlenny]

GOG ftw

[@kieran9396]

Humble Bundle also provides DRM free versions of games and you get to support charities too!

[@Yutter89]

@@NoahRodriguezShow yeah I don't really understand the hoopla over having to click another icon before my game starts... Oh no...

[@sentrysapper45]

I agree for the most part...though not even CD Projekt Red is immune to controversy, such as their practice of routinely overworking their employees with intense crunch periods. I still buy from GOG to support the policy of DRM-free storefronts, but a part of me always feels a bit skeevy knowing that at least some of my money is lining the pockets of higher-ups who value arbitrary deadlines over the health and well-being of others.

[@MrATN800]

NOt to mention what I would qualify as "poaching" when Epic bought exclusivity for games that got most of their fanbase support with a steam page.

[@thejackal007]

Ah, good ol' Shenmue 3

[@EliteTeamKiller2.0]

Steam could have shut Epic down in the beginning if they would have chosen to match Epic's amount of support for developers. They chose not to.

[@MrATN800]

@@EliteTeamKiller2.0 Because Epic's "support" means Tencent's money. It has the cash to throw around and reel in the exclusives. NOt saying Steam is perfect with it's own treatment, but it can't afford the Vegas treatment like Epic does.

[@VerGiLL1]

EliteTeamKiller What do you even mean with suport for the developer ? You mean paying of developers to stay in Steam and refuse thee Epic Deal ?

[@ArchusKanzaki]

@@VerGiLL1 Yes, and offer better cut. That's capitalist world after all. "why you hate money? are you a communist?"

[@Drainola]

"Pity I won't play it, because it's on the Epic store" Funny. I said that exact same line to myself for that predator game.

[@EtherImperial]

100% came out my mouth about Borderlands 3

[@maeve0301]

Same thing happened to me when they announced Saints Row 3 Remastered

[@Drainola]

@@EtherImperial At least Borderlands 3 came to Steam eventually. And at 50% off too.

[@ijn4438]

Borderlands 3 on the Epic Games store was effectively a bug test, which was quite amusing.

[@knightplutonian5490]

From what reviews seem to say, you're not missing much

[@Pifferfish]

I do not have Epic and will not use it over the Tencent involvement and how greasy they've been over pulling games into exclusivity after they've been pre-sold on steam. Not cool.

[@maeve0301]

I have literally made it my obligation to never buy or own any game that had a timed exclusivity deal on the Epic Games Store. Maybe pirating, but not likely. If I ever get one of those games for free, I will give it to someone else, because fuck EGS

[@lovelee572]

Thats more of a shitty game dev/game company move. But I agree that Epic should do their homework and not offer exlusive deals for games that are already promised to steam users.

[@bshpev]

@@lovelee572 I love that you guys are blaming EGS for this, and not steam/the developer(studio?) for taking your money before anyone signed anything binding...

[@EliteTeamKiller2.0]

@@maeve0301 Translation: I have literally made it my obligation to never buy or own any game made by developers who had more financial support than other launchers, even though the other launcher (e.g. Steam) had every opportunity to decide to match the offer in their support of game developers, who incidentally are the only reason video games exist, but nevertheless, even though the evil Epic literally supports developers more, allowing developers to put more resources into their projects, I will instead support the launcher who, despite having every opportunity to support the game developers just as much, chose not to because they are greedy. Because fuck launchers who help developers more because I actually am not aware that most video game developers are not backed by triple A studios with bazillions of dollars in spare cash to throw at their project, but who could definitely have received the same funding from Steam if Steam actually gave a fuck about developers.

[@maeve0301]

@@EliteTeamKiller2.0/videos As a consumer, I should not have to care about how much money the developers make. It's not my fault they didn't make a good product or didn't advertise it well. I will look, first and foremost at which launcher offers me a better experience, and if I find 2 launcher that give just as good of an experience, only THEN will I take into consideration how much it helps the developers. Look at consoles, they take 30% from the developers AND have devs pay to even put the games on the platform and you're saying Steam is bad because they take 30%, until the game makes a certain number of sales, from which point they only take 20%? Besides, you don't need to be backed by AAA studios to make money off a game. Look at Geometry Dash, an originally mobile indie game (that is now also on PC) that costs $4 and it assured that the developer (yes, it was made by a single person) can live easily and having over $3000 a month to pay for what he needs for the rest of his life. Someone did the math.

[@Ceser1999]

On the "quiet room" argument. You are taking one type of food, let's say "chicken wings", from the big room and saying "Hay if you want chicken wings you NEED to come to my quiet room". Instead of also getting "chicken wings" from the same place as the big hall and also offering it to people who want to go to the quiet room. RE all your arguments against steam, the best thing against a monopoly is competion, but competion through exclusivity is just replacing one monopoly with lots of smaller monopolys

[@Darkersneasel]

Do you understand what a monopoly is? Because I feel like you don't.

[@dennnnnn1352]

@@Darkersneasel lmao, you're right on the head. Ceser have no idea what a monopoly is. A bunch of smaller monopoly in the same market share doesn't exist.

[@Ceser1999]

@@dennnnnn1352 it depends on what scope you are looking at. In the market of "digital games platforms" you do not have a monopoly in this case, but in the market for "game xyz" exclusively is another name for having a monopoly. Exclusively means that companies just like in a monopoly don't compleat on features as if you want product X you need to go to them. This is particularly relevant for gaming as for example if you want to play "shooter of duty" you are not able to get "shooting field" as a replacement.

[@spinningchurro]

“oligopoly”

[@Darkersneasel]

@@Ceser1999 if you're looking at it from a game called xyz on a digital platform on PC that is exclusive to a certain store a monopoly then I guess you've narrowed the scope. By that same logic Super Mario Odyssey on the Nintendo switch is a monopoly. If you think this is a bad thing (considering the platform is free to use) then I have bad news for you, literally every game in existence is a monopoly and the exclusion of other companies to make said games like Mario is stiffling innovation in the game market. It's creating a hostile environment with many mini monopolies.

[@morbid1.]

Epic store do not have any community support: - screenshot gallery - nope - forums - no - workshop - no - achievements - no - guides and tutorials - no - streaming/video upload - no I could play a game w/o Epic Store, by launching it from exe file like in old days and I would have same amount of features as ES has - none. Why do I need ES?

[@smackfanxion]

I love how even the 'positives' for the EPIC store, like 'curation' is actually a huge fk you to consumers. "You aren't smart enough to pick your own games". Wow, I feel loved and respected. Thanks Tim Sweener.

[@dnothstylez]

9:43 "...where we can have a nice serious conversation..." Oops, uh... actually, EGS doesn't have anywhere to have conversations. EGS is like the Enterprise-B in Star Trek Generations. They launched prematurely without the important things like a tractor beam (shopping cart) or medical staff (forums).

[@MajatekYT]

This is quite possibly the nerdiest, but also most relatable reply I've seen thus far. Damn you. 🖖

[@szn00]

Civil war topic suggestion: Pirating games..

[@MrSamulai]

Justified if I wanted to use money but they'd rather have me pay with my data. fite meh

[@Neoblaster]

Yo ho a pirates life for me

[@robertmoore5588]

Piracy is a service issue. If your not providing a better service than the pirates your doin' it wrong.

[@DxAxxxTyriel]

Yes, this is a perfect subject. Let them have a go at it.

[@Taabituubi]

@@robertmoore5588 exactly. I put my captains hat away when Steam made it easy and simple to buy and play games. Now that all the other storefronts and their own annoyances, subscriptions, exclusivity deals and root access "DRM"s have risen from the depths of hell, I am looking at my sea captains hat again a bit more fondly each passing blunder that the games industry at large are making.

[@son0fgrim]

I like how Yatzee is just Soulessly repeating epics own arguement. he clearly doesnt wanna do this XD

[@tiagocf1208]

Well, after warning us about the free games resulting in data mining, excuse me, "accidental" data leaks, he literally is trying to defend the devil he tried to exorcise

[@subtlewhatssubtle]

@@tiagocf1208 Yep, nuked my Epic account when the news of their backers came up. Speaking as someone who lived in Hong Kong briefly before the whole recent mess, if you don't think that a literal state-sponsored Chinese media conglomerate is going to take advantage of the opportunity to track, analyze, and subvert your data, you are unaware of the depths to which they are willing to sink.

[@Daemonworks]

@@subtlewhatssubtle To be fair, they don't really /care/ about most of our data. They're far more interested in the data of people who live in china. But if they decide they do have a reason to care, they certainly have no compunctions against using it.

[@tiagocf1208]

@@Daemonworks how are they not interested in the data from outsiders, when there are companies offering lots of money from outside to buy that data, also, to predict or plan anything, you need data, the more the merrier after you sort the useful parts

[@Daemonworks]

@@tiagocf1208 That's normal business uses of data in marketing and whatnot. Valid privacy concerns and whatnot there, of course, but also pretty common outside of the few places that have placed significant limits on it. The common worry with ten cent is the notion that ten cent's data is available to the chinese government and that /they/ will do whatever they want with it. And that's probably true. Certainly a thing to be aware of and not just ignore. But it's also true that the chinese government doesn't really give a fuck about what some random americans or whatever are up to. When they want to exert pressure, they do so at the top, because they control 30% of global manufacturing and are the single largest market on the planet, especially for media. For example, if they don't like the theme of a movie, that movie just isn't allowed into china, potentially costing hundreds of billions in revenue, so film-makers take care not to include things they don't like. Unlike Russia, which has a strong incentive to fuck with other nations at the citizen level because it's economy is still shit. They don't have have any real economic leverage outside of their own sphere, so that's the only thing they can really do to exert the pressure they want to.

[@BlueButtonFly]

This pretty clearly shows the cracks in this format. When defending something you have to pretend to care, Jack. After a lifetime of watching Red Letter Media, this episode revealed Jack to not be much more than a sniveling, self-centered gamer. He can't even pretend to understand a different perspective: he is right, everyone else is stupid and immature. This was the end of the escapist in my life for me, and frankly I am happier jack has left RLM at this point.

[@cassidy8307]

Granted, it can be pretty difficult to lie through your teeth.

[@matthewjeremy6887]

I think thats kinda of the point

[@TheGoukaruma]

I think Yahzee can pull it off. Jack always has to wink with both of his eyes to make sure everyone get's it that its not his real position.

[@BlueButtonFly]

@@matthewjeremy6887 I really don't think it is. Picking one side to mock to profit from internet rage doesn't seem like the angle any of these individuals want to take. They ostensibly are articulating people's genuine beliefs.

[@matthewjeremy6887]

@@BlueButtonFly some times playing devils adivcate helps betterunderstand arguments

[@jcbro86]

One of the things that bums me out about epic store exclusives are when devs flip flop. They say they will release on Steam on X day of the year. Then when they get close to release they strike a deal with epic and throw their supporters in the toilet and make it exclusive for a year on epic before releasing on Steam. :/

[@mildlysober6219]

I agree that is shitty, but I wouldn't blame epic for that. I would blame the publisher. I also agree that length of exclusivity should bee shorter, but again you're blaming epic for a decision publishers are making. It's like blaming a whore house because your husband got the clap.

[@BobtheX]

I honestly don't get why people give a shit at all. It's not like the epic store is a premium paywall, it's just another storefront as easy and free to download as steam. Double click the icon and the game pops up so who gives a shit where I bought it?

[@TheGiraffe1894]

Gumball that is not the point. If you release a digital store on PC, people are going to expect certain features, like user reviews, forms, search bar, shopping cart etc, you cannot just release a something so barebones when your competitor is offering so much and say we just released it and 15 years back other stores didn’t had these thing, that just comes up as lazy and money hungry

[@Miralage]

@@mildlysober6219 Both are to blame. It takes two to tango. If someone offers a bribe, they are not absolved of the bribe just because someone ACCEPTED the bribe. Look at the metro fiasco. They were giving out PREORDERS for the game, and went epic exclusive so late into the process of releasing their game that they literally put an epic sticker over the steam icon on the physical copies. Deep Silver was rung up by epic and BOTH of them said 'hey, this game is releasing in two months, physical jackets have been printed, people are buying it on steam, we're advertising it as available on steam, all of that... why not be exclusive for a big bag of cash?' and they BOTH, BOTH deep silver and Epic, said 'yeah, that's fine. Fuck the false advertisement we've done so far. Take money!' Or the case of crowdfunded games going epic exclusive despite the fact that they were backed either under the impression it would be released on steam (shenmue, phoenix point) or THE EXPLICIT PROMISE OF RELEASING ON STEAM (Mechwarrior 5). Both the developers AND Epic looked at those situations and said 'yeah, we're fine with doing that'. So no, Epic does not get absolved of their part in this bullshit.

[@mildlysober6219]

@@Miralage I'm not saying absolve them. If you don't like what Epic is doing then by all means don't use their product. What I find puzzling is the amount of blame Epic receives compared to publishers. In all the examples given, the publisher should be blamed far more than Epic. The Publishers made a choice, Epic never forced them to take the deal. And yet you have people furious and refuse to use the Epic Game Store, but then buy the game on Steam when the exclusivity ends. The ones that really bother me are like you said the crowdfunded games going exclusive. In those situations I agree it's a real shitty move on Epic's part, but that pales in comparison to the shittyness of the publisher/developer collecting money on a promise and then (without any waning in some cases) changing their minds. TL;DR Epic deserves some blame, but the publisher's aren't getting as much as I feel they deserve.

[@phobiandarkmoon]

I refuse to add more launchers to my system, and my backlog of games is big enough that I can wait a year to play the games. I fully intend to get into, say, Satisfactory and Hades at some point.

[@Darkersneasel]

This is probably one of the more honest and respectable answers out there.

[@Megalomaniakaal]

Same here.

[@randomguy6679]

Nicholas Hayes Hades is on Steam though

[@phobiandarkmoon]

@@randomguy6679 Like I said, big backlog :)

[@IMVADER2]

I guess it really depends on the person, and the situation. I know when it came to (for example), the Wii-U, everyone knew it was shit! But, that didn't stop people from buying it to get that one game that they wanted (Smash, Splatoon, Mario Maker, Bayonetta 2). People literally sunk $300 just to buy 1 game. At least in the pc world it IS just a launcher, and not some hunk of hardware taking up physical shelf space. I'd rather buy pc store exclusives than console ones, if my "must-buy" game is put on a different store launcher. Throw them all into a launcher folder.

[@templarw20]

Epic Store or Origin exclusives are not nearly as annoying as system exclusive titles... (looking at you, PS4 Spiderman)

[@Refloni]

This. A PS4 costs 400 dollars, plus a TV. Epic Store only costs your privacy and dignity.

[@templarw20]

Good anti-virus and firewall software costs less.

[@NealFowler]

exclusives foster competition. if no consoles had any exclusives, no competition would foster and no innovation would get off the ground. and they help shape brand identity. would xbox matter if halo wasn't an exclusive? would nintendo matter if mario wasn't an exclusive?

[@sasukeuchiha998]

Or generational exclusives.

[@mikerhoa]

Bloodborne was the only reason I bought a PS4. I basically paid $250 for one game.

[@Modie]

I don't know. I feel, the development with exclusives will sooner or later lead to the same problem we have with movies/series at the moment. At one point, these services won't be free anymore. There will be a fee. It won't be huge, but it is developing in that direction if exclusives are allowed. Because then, people have to come to you if they want to just play a certain game. Fast forward 10 years and we have three to five different services that all have their exclusive games to make sure that people use the service and we as the consumers are the only ones that loose, because like it is with movies and series nowadays already, every service will have a certain amount of games that we want to play and therefore we will have to pay every service. The point is that if exclusives wouldn't exist, this could never happen, because then you would just pay the one service that works best for you and this would then be decided for most people by whoever charges the least amount per month. In the end, the consumer wins. That is why I am ignoring games on the Epic store (I mean, I am not interested in most of them regardless), but I can see why people wouldn't want to pass on these games.

[@KorboQ]

Why will there be a fee though? Netflix charges because you're essentially renting their entire library a month. Steam is a store. They don't need to charge you to buy things off them. They make enough as it is.

[@Modie]

@@KorboQ I mean, just look at Stadia or all the other subscriptions to the launchers that already exist. At the moment, most of these (like the Uplay one) are optional, but at some point they can just make it obligatory and this then only works if they have exclusives, because otherwise they know you just go the other store. I mean, all these services are also providing servers and that works at the moment because of the fee they take from the publishers. But this might change as well with every publisher just adding their own launcher with games you can buy. This is what I think will happen if you look at the developments in different areas (and not just Epic). I might be wrong, but this is why I don't buy exclusives, because I fear this will lead to this future.

[@KorboQ]

@@Modie Stadia is a subscription because you're paying for the cloud computing that you use to play the games. That's a whole other level of infrastructure than serving a storefront and hosting workshop stuff.

[@Modie]

@@KorboQ Again, that is the current way. I have you other examples where you pay fees. But let's just take Amazon Prime as another example. You pay for that as well and you still have to pay for certain movies or series. And as for the reason why they would do that, the answer is simple. Because they can. Once exclusives in every store are normal, you either go to the store to play the game or you don't play it at all. And a lot of people don't want to miss out. The stores then can take a fee, simply because they have an offer no one else makes. This is what you call a monopoly. As long as only one store has the property they can do whatever with the pricing. That is not done currently, because exclusives are rare, but once they are established, there is no way these companies won't use that to their advantage.

[@tbone2646]

@@Modie The examples you are looking for are things like xbox pass for microsoft store, and whatever the EA subscription thing is called over at Origin

[@pikcube]

Giving a bit of feedback on this. This feels too edited to sound like a conversation, but not edited enough to sound scripted

[@trentjordan5984]

Exactly my thoughts as well. the entire conversation falls in the Uncanny Valley for me

[@somerandomidioticnerd9769]

That's what was so off about it! Thanks for finding the words I couldn't

[@sirtontonolous2283]

Because they often get assigned to arguing for roles they don't believe in. It feels more like a parody of how people debate than an actual debate. That's why this series is flawed, although some do enjoy this strange style of debate.

[@uGuardian4]

@@sirtontonolous2283 I like to think that's why it's called "slightly" civil war.

[@ICantSplel]

I know this old but it really irked me too. Jack sounds like he's reading off a script, but each page has only one word, so he's flipping a page between each word. God damn.

[@unstoppablefizz8848]

I love it when we as gamers attempt to take the moral high ground. If we truly cared about the sinister business practices of developers and platforms we wouldn't stop with boycotting Epic Games. We'd boycott so many games that all anyone would be playing was FTL and how boring would that be?

[@unstoppablefizz8848]

@@Surkai25 I won't buy many EA Games or most games with micro-transactions. I don't like the idea behind loot boxes but that doesn't dictate my decision. I don't buy them because those games always end up being a bit shit. I don't use the Epic Games Store for the same reason. There's nothing moral about it. It just doesn't look like they're done with it yet and I have other options.

[@skyler6175]

It's like that boycott call of duty picture from a while back. Yes, occasionally something becomes so egregious that people do actually take action, like battlefront 2, but most the time people just care about playing a decent game.

[@unstoppablefizz8848]

@@skyler6175 I think there's a portion of the gaming community who just want their anger validated. It's not enough to be disappointed. For some reason, they need to know that other people are just as angry as they are. I LOVED Shadow of Mordor. But I was really let down by all of the pre-release announcements for Shadow of War. So I didn't buy it. Problem solved.

[@Canukles]

Some things are already bad, therefore we can't complain when one thing is bad, right? Or you know, accept the fact you can care about different things, and call bullshit when you see it.

[@hoshi314]

indeed, that is why i can never believe in the "consumer side of power" be it through a moral ground or not, if a product is not sold it's for a simple reason : A) the product is so bad that you stick with the previous version or B) there are better alternatives elsewhere or C) in video games case you don't have the platform to play the damn game (console exclusives as an example) AKA consumer pragmatism. "Vote with your wallet" thing only applies to you alone, other voices matters less. The reason i am not using EGS is simple : Regional Pricing, Lack of Features and the support of my country's currency (Indonesian Rupiah) AKA the same reason i am not using GOG except for the feature part in GOG's case. And in EGS case the exclusives are mostly timed-exclusives so give it time and it will go to Steam given time like 6 months or 1 year tops.

[@MazeFrame]

You can't just come into a room, take away peoples food and demand a ransom for them to eat it in the shady back alley! Epic bribed (let's call it what it is) devs to take games that were crowd-funded by their community and grew famous on Steam to have them on the Epic "Store" (← In quotation marks because stores in Germany have shopping carts).

[@Dimencia]

Epic didn't take anything. They just generally said "Hey everyone we'll give you money if you put your game on our store", and your shady devs were like "Hell yeah!" and those chicken wings got up off the table and walked themselves out to join the platform that was offering them better benefits. Maybe if Steam supported developers with smaller cuts, they wouldn't jump ship the first opportunity they get

[@orderofdusk2382]

@@Dimencia Exclusivity is never good for the consumer, it is anti-competitive by design as the entire point of exclusivity deals is to force the consumer to buy a desired product from one distributor by removing all other options, as a result of removing the need to compete EGS don't have to price competitively, improve their platform or anything that would provide a better service than it's alternatives the latter of which, as far as I'm aware, Epic Games isn't fucking doing, so in the end the consumer has to either put up with shitty service or miss out on a game they want, both being a bad outcome for the consumer. Plus the platform these games are being made exclusive to is objectively worse than it's alternatives as it outright lacks features those alternatives already have. (And no patching those features in later is not an excuse, if EGS is trying to compete with Steam, GoG, hell even fucking Origin, it better have all the features it's competitors have at launch, otherwise it's doing a shit job of competing.) Also one last thing, if you did give a shit about the developers getting fucked by Valve you should signal boost GoG, Humble Bundle and developers' websites where they can sell directly instead of sucking EGS's dick, it would be more palatable and you wouldn't be promoting anti-consumer practices. edit: elaborated a bit and added that last point.

[@Dimencia]

@@orderofdusk2382 Exclusivity is good for the consumer in cases where it provides extra money to the industry without costing the consumer anything. EGS is free. The only thing 'exclusive' about these games is that you exclusively click a different icon to play them. EGS does offer competitive pricing - why do you think so many devs choose to sell on their store? They offer better cuts to the devs, the devs choose to sell on their store, that's basically the definition of competition. You're correct that EGS doesn't need to care about sales or their platform - they can compete with Steam without them, because Steam is making no changes to what they offer to devs, and is consistently losing more and more developers to EGS because they take almost double the cut. Turns out no matter how much consumers like your platform, if you don't offer competitive pricing to those selling products on your store, they sell their product somewhere else. Even better, because of the EGS exclusivity deals and guaranteed income, for the first time these studios actually have an option; they can sell their game on something other than Steam without instantly going bankrupt. Again, competition. Also GoG, Humble, etc have been around for years and are not competitors to Steam; Humble, for example, gives out Steam keys. GoG's total value is something like 2% of Steam's yearly revenue. GoG if anything is proof that EGS' model is required; if people are given a choice, they will buy from Steam, which means developers have no choice. But because EGS offers such good cuts along with good marketing and a much bigger userbase than GoG after a much shorter time, devs can choose to sell on EGS and make more money than they would on Steam End of the day, clicking a different icon is a small price to pay so that developers get more funding and make better games. And if you want to wait a year instead, that's fine too. If not having a shopping cart affects your gameplay that badly, you're welcome to wait

[@orderofdusk2382]

@@Dimencia Ok so reading through the first half of your comment your main argument is that the exclusivity deals fund the development of the exclusive games, two words Metro: Exodus, I'm sure you're aware that Metro: Exodus was made exclusive when it was already available for pre-order on Steam, this indicates that the game was almost finished if not already finished by that point so most the money was most likely pocketed, this indicates two things: 1 - The money from the exclusivity deals is not going towards the further development of the game since the exclusivity deal is coming too late in the game's development cycle for that to be possible. 2 - The goal of these exclusivity deals isn't to provide funding for improving the exclusive games, it's just EG trying to strong arm their way into the market via underhanded, anti-consumer practices. Of course this money could go towards future projects but there's one problem with that, by accepting an exclusivity deal with EG the developers garner bad PR, for AAA devs bad PR is not good, for indie devs bad PR is devastating since the latter (generally) can't afford big PR departments and bad PR makes people less willing to buy games made by a given developer, so while the exclusivity deals do provide a short term boon for shooting yourself in the foot, you still have to shoot yourself in the foot, the only party that doesn't get fucked is Epic Games. In regards to the missing features on EGS, it doesn't matter whether or not the features in question are significant (although I would consider not having user reviews very fucking significant) the fact is EGS doesn't have those features, it's competition does have those features and it makes absolutely no fucking sense that EGS doesn't have those features when it's trying to compete with platforms that do have them, plus since EGS has it's fucking exclusives EG gets to have it's cake and eat it because they don't have to do shit to improve their platform and people will still use it because the only other choice is to pirate EGS exclusives, oh yeah the fact that EGS is shit also encourages piracy because it provides better service than EGS, so yeah you know I said EG is the only party that doesn't get fucked? I'd like amend that, EG does get fucked just not as hard as everyone else, except for pirates they're the only winners. Also one last point, GoG, Humble and Devs' Websites make less money than Steam because they don't as high a profile as Steam, signal boosting should change that and GoG, Humble and Devs' Websites are better than EGS in every fucking way, so in they deserve attention alot more EGS.

[@Cruzz999]

Personally I'm just waiting for GoG Galaxy to become good enough that it doesn't matter anymore. A game launcher launcher is the solution. I haven't bought an epic store game yet, haven't even taken the free ones, because I loathe the fact that they're basically trying to force console exclusives and console wars to pc gamers.

[@airbornefilip9139]

What's the problem with GOG Galaxy 2? It's a game launcher launcher that for those last few months that I have been using it, maybe a year, is working really, really well, at least for me.

[@Skylancer727]

@@airbornefilip9139 It's still in beta from what I've seen. Haven't heard when they plan on full launching it.

[@thomasball5432]

I don't think that argument really holds up. It's not like you have to buy a second PC to play stuff, it's just another launcher. I'm not defending epic games specifically, because some of their business practices are iffy to say the least, but the idea of a store with exclusives and curation isn't fundamentally bad.

[@airbornefilip9139]

@@thomasball5432 I have no issue with another launcher, evenmoreso that I use GOG G2. But EGS store is a shitty digital store. They had good examples on what people like and dislike on a digital marketplace and they still fucked it up. Epic isn't some small shitty company, they had and have resources to, I don't know, implement a cart, a wishlist, not lock you out after you buy more than a few games in succession. But nah, let's not do that. I made better stores for useless class seminars. Their shitty store is a professional insult to me and that's why I don't buy anything on it even though I had their launcher on my PCs way, way before 2017. and Fortnite for that sweat and really, really good engine called Unreal Engine 4. I love that shit. But make a proper store, it's not 2005. Exclusivity is never good for consumers. Not to mention, I'd rather keep my login data and general personal data on as few sites as I could. Evenmoreso if money is involved. They had to do it big and bold to gain traction, I get that, Steam is too big if you want to be relevant in the same field without something to you. And considering 2 paragraphs above, their store wasn't better and it still isn't close. Curation is fine. GOG did it way longer than EGS, just as an info. But I don't mind the garbage on Steam. Positive reviews % in most cases immidiately tells you if game is just a moneygrab or worth reading the reviews to check if it's worth the money.

[@psinjo]

i can't really comment about the chinese government stuff, though i do acknowledge it is an issue. My reason for boycotting any exclusive game on the Epic store is because I find it terrible practice to support games like Metro, that were on steam, and decided to change their mind , betraying a lot of their fans, and switching after they had already gone up for sale. Not quite the same issue with borderlands 3. But I would be much more open to some games on the Epic Store if they released on both stores simultaneously. I'm all for competition, I think having any competition to Steam is a good thing, as I agree, they have not really visibly improved their system in years, and I appreciate Epic's stance against no shovelware, but the Epic store needs to function properly (very buggy in my experience) and not constantly try to spam you with notifications and overall just work better before I'm willing to spend money on it.

[@thrawncaedusl717]

How do you feel about those announced as exclusives from the beginning (ie Remedy and Playdead’s recent partnership in which Epic is literally publishing the games, and with deals that look very good for the devs to my untrained eyes)?

[@ПавелПовх-з3у]

Annoying notification? Steam basically crashes my games when I get very important notification from one of the groups I am subscribed to, because some games don't like to be alt-tabbed, and steam minimizes them without warning.

[@DarkKnight179]

If they released on both stores simultaniously, the same thing would happen as did with GoG. They fail to become real competition, steam maintains the iron grip on their monopoly, and pc gaming as a whole suffers as a result. The only way to break up monopolies are extreme measures, or government intervention. Since I cant imagine most people would like the idea of the US government going ahead and breaking up steam, the former is the only option.

[@OninRuns]

It sounds like you just wanted to boycott Metro, and then for no reason at all extended that boycott to all of Epic. The Metro devs are the ones who took the deal, pulled the rug out from under their fans and hiked off to the unfinished storefront. You feel betrayed by them? Fine, don't buy their game, speak with your wallet. What does that to do with the Epic Game Store?

[@DarkKnight179]

A monopoly doesnt mean "literally noone else offers the service". If it meant that, then there wouldve been no monopoly in the entirety of human history, and there never would be, because thats pretty impossible. They have a de facto monopoly. The only "competition" is so small they have no impact. And no, thats not the reason. Its because they got into the game first, and used whatever methods to do so. Nowadays? Good lord do their services suck. Steam is the worst coded client I have ever seen. Its worse than even the infamous league client. Their support is infamously bad. Its filled with shovelware, and the algorithms are tuned to maximise Valves money, rather than recommending you the most fitting game (hence why they prioritise less fitting Triple-A titles over more fitting indie titles. The former make Valve more money). GoG is much better. And yet, its not even remotely as big. Yes as opposed to the games being held hostage on steam that then also has the audacity to take more of the developers hard-earned money despite the fact that steam would be profitable with much less of a cut. Obviously thats better. Yeah except thats a conclusion based on a false premise. Valve does not have a monopoly "by providing the best service" (they provide one of the worst services). They have a monopoly by being the ones who got in the game early, and used ruthless methods to obtain a monopoly. Its Microsoft all over again. There are only *2* ways to counter it. Either use the same ruthless methods they once used to carve out competition. Or government intervention. Again, I imagine you dont want the latter. So the former is the only option.

[@Ukyoprime]

1. In terms of formal debate scoring, I give this match to Yahtzee, for generally being more consistent. 2. In terms of personal opinion on the topic, I'm mostly just super lazy and don't want ANOTHER launcher to keep track of. Plus I like the "rowdy party", I can sift the wheat from the chaff just fine, and hate it when profit-driven companies try to tell me I don't need to worry about that (thing) because it's bad or - more problematic - immoral. 3. I feel Jack missed a key opportunity to point out that the _acquisition_ of these exclusives has happened under pretty shady circumstances on multiple occasions - such as sniping newly-backed Kickstarter titles that promised Steam releases during the campaign.

[@nicknevco215]

Yahtzee " You have to give Epic a chance they are the little guy" FORTNITE: Am I a Joke to You

[@dariusfarrel3228]

Yahtzee: Yes you are

[@cursinsquirl]

So i'm a bit confused. at the beginning when we went through the whole "our sides are determined randomly and i feel the need to say this because i'm speaking for boycotting the EGS" it sounded an awful lot like he wanted to be speaking against the boycott, and Yahtzee wasnt really putting any remotely sensible effort into arguing against the boycotts... so were the roles reversed which means there was really no incentive for either party to give a shit about anything? wouldnt it have been better to just have the discussion?

[@Chibi1986]

If Phoenix Point is any hint, Epic do a good job of curating Bethesda-level buggy games. And if Ooblets is another indication, they do a good job of drawing out the customer-hating game devs.

[@Skylancer727]

"You know that thing everyone told us not to do? Yeah we didn't even know it existed till they told us and we did it anyways." "Screw you guys, I don't need you to buy my game, now I have so much money I might as well just go find some journalists to write this down as another example of toxic gamer gate supporters." Seriously, when can we stop hearing people mention gamer gate considering it was nearly a decade ago and many of the people on the internet today weren't even in that community?

[@hassathunter2464]

Yeah, that Ooblets thing made me give up on Epic myself. They actually supported those devs rather than kick them out :/

[@MrCableguy153]

My main problem is having to split my games, consoles have physical copies you can have in your home or digital downloads all in your console in one place. However PC has to deal with launchers and stores so rather than having easy access to all your games you have to check your different launchers and stores to really know what games you have to play and I hate having to deal with that in the first place. In a perfect world we could purchase games online and have them all stored in our PC where we can easily access them from a folder or some kind of System Window for games rather than be forced to have the respective Store/launcher open first or be running in order to even play the damn game.

[@ExasBits]

You mean like it use to be before Steam came along?

[@MrCableguy153]

@@ExasBits Yea basically lol, but I guess that was too easy to pirate PC games but who knows.

[@ExasBits]

Shadeybard well there’s also the benefit of having a dedicated distributor instead of having to manage it yourself. It’s a godsend for Indy devs.

[@MrCableguy153]

@@ExasBits Yea, it would only work in a perfect world but that being the case it's still very much a hassle PC has to deal with so much DRM hurdles via the very game's DRM or the distributor's store/launcher

[@ExasBits]

Shadeybard another reason I don’t miss PC gaming. This whole comment section for this video assured me I made the right decision.

[@kelbyreid7254]

I really have never had an issue with steam being uncurated. Given that I’m not one to drop 60 dollars on an impulse buy. I generally only buy a game when I’ve got friends playing it or have heard buzz about it from other people. Like, maybe, I could find out about games from browsing but that seems like a pretty minor plus and more of a boon for big game devs who don’t want to have to compete with smaller or indie developers. The epic game store has done nothing to peak my interest beyond hoarding games.

[@johnnyfitzlive]

But how do those early adopters find out about the games in the first place? Check out a super bunny hop “games from my inbox” episode for an idea of just how hard it can be to get noticed on steam when you’re not backed by a big publisher. I’m not saying EGS is the only way to be noticed in a crowded indie game market, but I’m sure you can see how it would be helpful to a smaller developer. And the main benefit of curation is that it theoretically provides a baseline of quality not present in steam. While I don’t think it’s fully comparable, think Netflix vs Criterion.

[@starfusion76]

@@johnnyfitzlive Helping smaller developers by denying 95% of them access to the store? Really helpful. Funny thing is, if Steam was curated, Yahtzee wouldn't be able to sell his game there.

[@kelbyreid7254]

Johnny Fitz Live Early adopters find out through advertising, give always to reviewers/you tubers, and posts about it on forums and other online communities. Big companies will have plenty of the above to start with and smaller companies or indie devs will likely be “curated” off the front page. Curation is going to serve the triple AAA and mid size studios, not the small indie developers; since small indie developers are kind of the problem in the first place. Most indie games are trash and a curated system are going to ignore the lot, including the diamonds in the rough.

[@johnnyfitzlive]

@@starfusion76 Yes actually, it does help. Having your product featured in a more exclusive storefront increases your visibility, and very much helps you stand out. The more products in that storefront, the less of that benefit there is to those there. And I don't think steam should be curated. I think it's cool that pretty much anyone can list a game there. That being said, I also think it's cool that there are alternate storefronts that do offer a curated approach.

[@johnnyfitzlive]

@Alt-Centrist Thinker Totally recommend checking out one of his videos in that series. The key takeaway is that youtubers and reviewers are sent so many keys for free games, that there is no way for him to play, let alone review them all. And he's often surprised at the quality of games he would never have tried, were it not for the sake of that specific video series.

[@Stoic_Lizard]

I don't care what other people do, but I just don't like the Epic store. Number one is Steam's store reviews from customers. Literally tons and tons of them for any game. I just checked the Epic store and I guess they have "professional reviews" listed in some way, but I haven't trusted "professional" reviews for games over community consensus in like a decade at least. That right there is why I hate Epic store exclusives. Their storefront is more akin to something like the Playstation store where I think reviews are intentionally vague in hopes people buy their shit even if there are major flaws with the product. That's just how it comes across to me.

[@joshualong7724]

Just what I needed to keep me company while waiting on the clinic!

[@m0dp1g21]

What's going on at the clinic? (if you don't mind me asking)

[@MechWomanWarrior15]

@@m0dp1g21 Maybe he was waiting to get tested.

[@m0dp1g21]

@@MechWomanWarrior15 yeah I know, I wanna know what's going down tho 🙂

[@dra6o0n]

I find that while they argue on this one subject, people seem to forget that software monopoly happens real often in the industry. Microsoft monopolizes Windows. Unreal monopolizes their engine. Valve actually is in a unique position where they awkwardly seem competitive but they don't even seem to try to be. I mean have you ever seen them price gouging on their own platform for their own games... Ever? If anything their own games on their own platforms are often way cheaper, or Valve focuses on F2P titles a bit more often last generation. Games in the UGS oddly charge for insanely high prices even for the huge mark-up the developer gets from having a better revenue split. Seems like corporate greed is still taking effect since you have a developer talking to publisher talking to platform owner.

[@E1craZ4life]

How is exclusivity supposed to benefit the consumer?

[@saunshilu]

Its not, it forces the consumer down a certain path, and guess what if your not choosing 1 platform over the other, then thats not competition

[@utisti4976]

@@saunshilu Exactly!!

[@YorkJonhson]

It encourages competition between different services and consoles which (ideally) results in both trying to deliver a better product in order to stand out and stay afloat in the industry. I'm not a fan of Epic Games personally, but I also think Steam as a service needs a wake-up call to keep innovating and improving on its own services rather than just do nothing because it's already won and monopolized the market.

[@cian2168]

It encourages quality. For example, god of war and Spider-Man.

[@saunshilu]

@@utisti4976 I know right! Uniquenameasorous made a vid explaining this

[@utisti4976]

Screw exclusivity of any kind. It's ridiculously asanine and I can't name a single anti-consumer practice worse than that. Also, Tencent owns Epic. Tencent is like EA on steroids crossed with the worst aspects of the book 1984. Nuff said.

[@Creamcups]

Tencent is a minority shareholder, not the owner. Tencent is also a minority shareholder of Discord, Reddit and pretty much every publicly traded gaming company.

[@Creamcups]

@@Anthonyspartan514 Steam isn't publicly traded.

[@evilmandrake]

My position has always been when games that were already being pre-sold on Steam being removed from the platform is bad. I don't want to use epic store because I have more than enough launchers and I don't want another one, but that's just preference, not a boycott necessarily.

[@bradley4615]

Fitting for Yahtzee to be arguing against boycotting for exclusivity, when he has made his books Console Exclusive for Audible.

[@corvid1926]

Yes but that exclusivity isn't permanent.

[@cian2168]

He's getting paid extra for that. Can't blame him.

[@bradley4615]

@@addithehun4044 Physical bookshops, amazon, ereaders. All these avenues of book distribution and many more. But nope gotta make that Audible Exclusive money.

[@Richard-sy1ej]

@@cian2168 And DUN DUN DUN so are the creators of games by putting their stuff exclusively on Epic.

[@cian2168]

@@Richard-sy1ej Yep. So?

[@Dribbleondo]

*grabs popcorn* _This comment section is gonna be a treat_

[@Ric_Vicious]

Cheap

[@JohnDoe-ip3oq]

Steam actually has user curation, not to mention user reviews and forums. The front page is also curated. Quite frankly, there are no negative user experience arguments against steam, while the only arguments for Epic is the revenue share, exclusive payouts, and lack of user curation. This makes Epic exclusives catered for greedy and shady developers who have a product that they don't want to have a public discussion or review scores. It's not a user friendly platform by definition, and no updating will ever address that, because their philosophy is inheritally anti consumer. Epic is also run by hypocrites who complain about the Android and Microsoft stores, while not admitting those arguments apply to their store too. Side note: Steam has it's own game streaming, much like Nvidia, except developers can't pull support. Not to mention their own audio API, OS, big picture, and VR support that consolidates the fragmented VR market that almost killed itself by acting like mini Epic stores for each product. Steam literally has an answer for every game issue, including windows emulation on Linux. Nobody else is doing it, so maybe Steam really does deserve the cut they're asking from developers. At least I think so, although it probably is feasible to increase developer margins by another 5 percent, along with the other reductions for total sales.

[@PKMNTrainerKelly]

personally, i love epic store exclusives. i mean, it's 100% guilt-free piracy because Epic has already paid the developer on my behalf.

[@sirtontonolous2283]

Hilarious and true. Although personally, I'm not interested in whatever Epic's selling. If a game ends up in that storefront, it's usually not half as good as I would care for it to be.

[@shadoeboi212]

@@sirtontonolous2283 Im still pissed off about mechwarrior 5

[@stevezpj]

@@shadoeboi212 I was pissed off by Metro Exodus but then I waited for it to come to Steam but by the time it did, all the lukewarm reception of it put me off and I saved money. I was pissed off with Tetris Effect, especially as it still uses SteamVR so the Epic Store links back to Steam to run it, but you can't buy it on Steam, FFS! Now I am annoyed by the Tony Hawk's remake but there's no way I am supporting devs or publishers selling out to exclusivity deals.

[@devilmayclarify666]

All of you guys are scumbags. EGS's system is like rapid-fire scholarships generating higher quality games, and the payoff for EGS is being able to sell the games they helped fund exclusively on their launcher for only a year. Why wouldn't you want to take part in a system that helps quality developers make more high quality games? Do you not want even better games?

[@MrSamulai]

Sounds like an interesting argument. Pity I won't hear it, because it's about the Epic Store.

[@lich.possum]

Wow real mature

[@smaste7931]

@@lich.possum yikes

[@leonardofranzinribeiro4220]

I think most of these would be more interesting If the roles were reversed. It might have just been bad luck guys :p

[@Handles_Are_Bad.Phuk-them-off]

second

[@jeronimotorres1]

Well it is random.

[@3dpprofessor]

What if they changed half way through like that really cute couple on a date at a restaurant who shares whatever they order?

[@leonardofranzinribeiro4220]

@@3dpprofessor Ooo that sounds like a Nice idea.

[@yamayayutraca]

4:01 Can you not straw man the For argument? We don’t spite the Epic Store because it’s the Epic Store, we spite it because it fails to do so many things that Steam does with ease, and just generally fails to be a good platform. Exclusives are an artificial means to make your platform worth using while not improving the actual quality of said platform, hence why so many refuse to buy exclusive games.

[@Dimencia]

It's just a ridiculous argument, neither of them support it or know how to argue that side. If the gamedevs decide to take their game to the platform that offers better revenue, then maybe the other platforms should consider some changes to prevent that

[@ViMBarN]

I'm going to listen to the podcast.. the last two were significantly more interesting than the episodes themselves.. and I have a feeling this one will be as well.

[@ducky36F]

Victor Barcelo honest opinions are always more interesting

[@deatheven13]

I'm kinda surprised they didn't bring up the "I have too many front ends on my pc" "oh pish what's one more front end cluttering up your pc" argument.

[@HUNbullseye]

I don't think it's that hard of a line with exclusives. Sure it's not consumer friendly but having your own studios and teams, making exclusives for you (especially if it requires just another free app, not a 300$ hardver) from scratch is not horrible. Buying up almost finished or finished games (some which were promised on Steam) to not sell on Steam. No that is not cool. Also i think Yahtzee was right, and not just because i'm a great fan of China too, but because Jack seemed like he couldn't be bothered to really argue this side, so he did a bit of a parody of boycotters.

[@lordv1le859]

China is under a horrendous regime. If you're a fan of China then you must be in love with the USSR and Nazi Germany.

[@Forestxavier20]

Exactly, if they are making the games themselves, it makes sense they are exclusive, but buying exclusivity rights for a year? That is just a horrible practice because it means that people who want to play either go to console to play or are forced to install yet another launcher for this one game. The only reason they have so much success as a Platform is because Fortnite, Exclusivity Deals, and Free Games. If the biggest pull is one game, locking people out of games that they didn't make themselves, and bribing them? They are failing as a platform. Don't make exclusivity deals, make a better platform then Steam. That is how you get customers to want to pay and stay, rather then go "Free game of the week, and I'll be gone" mentality. Steam is so successful because it is the grand daddy of the modern Storefront, and it didn't get there by bribing people to come to it. It had good design and unique qualities that made it useful and the large selection of games made it such a powerhouse. It combines forces with Ubisoft and EA to have UPlay and Origin for the games that are produced by those companies. Steam deserves their position at the top of the food chain. Epic is trying to climb, but can't realize that you need to have good design to get anywhere fast and bribing people with free games is only a parachute; slowing the descent as they fall from grace.

[@chibanga88]

*This is just an theoretical example* - There this small food stall in my area, it has a menu I love, but their supplier decided to go to the store at that shady dirty corner since they could get them a better deal, that place is dirty and they don't want to clean it. Meanwhile the other store got another supplier for a different menu, it's may not be the same, but the place is nicer and clean.

[@FenexDragonis]

Heres the thing when it comes to epic... its nothing more than epic trying to strong arm people into using epic store. Epic knows they cannot compete with steam. So instead of offering some incentive to use the store they try to force it on you. Epic store has been around over a year now..yet despite that, epic has done nothing to try and improve it.

[@diegowushu]

I've gotten a bunch of free games in egs. The devs have more exposure, money upfront and a curated store. If those are not incentives to you I don't know what to tell you.

[@lovelee572]

Steam is like shopping at a yard sale. Epic is like shopping at Kmart as they were shutting down. Sometimes you wanna wade through a lot of trash to find the gem. Other times you just wanna loaf of bread to make toast.

[@Dimencia]

Epic isn't taking or strong-arming anything. They're simply offering. If the gamedevs decide to take their game to the platform that offers better revenue, then maybe the other platforms should consider some changes to prevent that

[@tabuukiller13]

D Mentia I can’t remember the game but they at least are basically “take the deal or duck you.” When a game dev said I’m not betraying the people who funded for this deal but I’ll still put on your store.

[@Dimencia]

@@tabuukiller13 This is expected. Poorly funded indie titles are not allowed on the Epic store as a whole. If an indie studio doesn't take the deal, they are still not allowed on the store, no change

[@jadekaiser7840]

Yahtzee, I love you and all, but this video really does not give the argument for "boycotting" the Epic store a fair shake. Every one of the "arguments" in favor basically touches on the most minor, surface level issues without actually bringing up the deal breakers. Things like the "Epic Games Store lacks things Steam has" argument. No achievements and chat rooms is one thing. No user reviews or offline play is quite another. The former two were mentioned. The latter two were not. The latter two are the ones people actually care about. And that is just one example. For another, it's one thing to cut an exclusivity deal to get off the ground. It's quite another thing to do so when you *actually* got off the ground by taking money from donors to whom you had explicitly promised something the exclusivity deal denies. It's the difference between taking a smart business deal and taking a deal that sh*ts on the very idea of good faith with your customers. Consistently, the "arguments" made in favor of the boycott in this video are *almost* touching on the actual issues people have with the store and the practice, and the specific *way* the store has used the practice, but not actually doing so. This feels like a video made to flanderize the opposing position, possibly because you didn't actually look into it deep enough to know that position properly in the first place, rather than an actual... whatever this video supposedly is. It's not a discussion or a debate, that's for sure.

[@nintenster]

Finding a diamond in the rough, requires the rough. Epics takes all the rough, and with it, the diamonds. Some people prefer it that way, i dont. I like seeing all the off the wall stuff steam shows me. Which, is usually relevant to other games iv bought.

[@klein8697]

You just want to see anime porn while browsing you sick fuck whose to much of a coward to admit his feelings to strangers online

[@Cruxin]

@@klein8697 please tell me you're joking. Please. Please tell me you don't think this is an actual argument.

[@KorboQ]

What? Good games are only good if they're surrounded by 100 bad games?

[@Cruxin]

@@KorboQ no. You can only find (smaller) good games if you get given 100 random games and most of those will be bad

[@minipora]

A competitor to steam? Great where do I sign? Oh... it has basically none of the features steam has? No profile to customize for your look? Friends list that is re-used assets from the old RazerComms? No achievements? Ugly UI? I think I'll wait for it to develop... Oh. Exclusives you say? You mean like just the games that were previously playstation exclusives like Journey? No? Timed exclusives you say? Well... The idea is good... execution? Bad. Just bad. Remember when uplay and origin were released? No one liked them and probably still don't but why don't people whine? Probably because they don't actually care but Epic tries to play that "We are here to release you from the evil hands of Steam" while most of us are just having a cup of hot coco with steam in front of a warm fireplace in our gamer cottage. Steams 30% cut is big and I'm all for a change but you don't punch the customer because he went to starbucks instead of your home made cofee store where you got only one type of cofee.

[@thaddeushamlet]

Epic may be a quiet room off to the side, but they're trying to not give anyone the choice to participate in it. Instead they're taking all the best parts of the loud room and paying them to piss off their fans by only going to the quiet room for an extended period of time.

[@KorboQ]

Yeah, all the best parts of it, like Boredlands 3 and Meme Goose and "we hate gamers" Ooblets

[@thaddeushamlet]

@@KorboQ That wasn't meant to be literal, more so what they're *trying* to do.

[@Dimencia]

Epic isn't taking anything. They're simply offering. If the gamedevs decide to take their game to the platform that offers better revenue, then maybe the other platforms should consider some changes to prevent that

[@thaddeushamlet]

@@Dimencia "taking all the best parts and *paying them*" I never said they're literally taking stuff, it's more in the sense of when you "take someone aside."

[@Dimencia]

@@thaddeushamlet If you want to buy a TV and it's cheaper at Amazon than at Newegg, is Amazon the bad guy for offering it cheaper? Is it wrong for you to get it from Amazon just because it's cheaper? No, Newegg needs to up their game or be shoved out of the market

[@PsychoGoldVideos]

I really don't want to hate on people in this vid but it feels like one side was a lot more prepared for this debate than the other. Yahtzee had answers to Jack's points while Jack just chuckled and sounded like he'd already lost :/

[@0meat]

Meh, I use both and Origin, but seriously, screw Uplay.

[@boristhebull4850]

u played yourself

[@Epinardscaramel]

is uplay still around? I remember having to install it for Watch_Dogs

[@addgamer4545]

I would rather use uplay than origin. How does a game launcher lag? Explain EA

[@DenGuleBalje]

I use pretty much all of them except Epic and the Microsoft Store (except when I play Forza Horizon 4 i guess). I used to have the Epic launcher installed until it became a store and not just a launcher for their games and UE4. GOG Galaxy 2.0 is amazing though. One launcher to access all your games from all the launchers.

[@Megalomaniakaal]

Screw all of them, so far GoG has it right, though I am worried that they will end up opting to remove the option of not having a BS client installed on your system.

[@s8wc3]

I want to avoid another Netflix situation, where instead of just going to one place that has everything I now have to have 50 different bloody launchers installed. At least they're free but its still silly. Steam is bad enough. When that came out there was an outcry since it was required to play HL2, but we slowly warmed up to it as we realised the convenience of an online game store, now we don't mind that it has to be installed to play the games because its *just one thing*. If they were just websites that you would go on and download the game without needing to install a program it would be a different story. No need to junk up my computer. Can have as many stores as you dang want competing for my money, don't care. Have the client be optional for those that want the community integration, automated patching, and multiplayer because unfortunately a lot of the netcode is built into the launchers these days (though very good chance if you're playing MP you want the community features so no big deal). Who loses?

[@datenschutz6123]

I was so hyped for Borderlands 3, than it went exclusive on Epic, I dislike epic, I do not buy the product I desire, It comes out on steam 6 months later -> my Hype is long gone, other games got my hype, I enjoy other games and hell no I would not like to play a game in a split community between epic and steam so in the end I do NOT buy Borderlands 3 at all, and any possible Hype for Borderlands 4 will NOT happen for sure in 5 years or so. This franchise lost me with Epic 100% and I am sure I am not alone!

[@macscoop1]

Agreed. I can understand the indie devs going epic. But for Randy Pitchford to swipe up that deal made me sick.

[@lovelee572]

See that was a gearbox choice they didnt have to take. And if you chose not to buy and play a game you probably would have enjoyed, thats your choice. The game being on Epic didnt make it bad.

[@Richard-sy1ej]

Except why do you give a shit that it's exclusive to Epic? Do you boycott Sony because they have platform exclusives? Microsoft? Nintendo? The whole argument about boycotting Epic is just plain fucking stupid.

[@datenschutz6123]

@@Richard-sy1ej well it is not the same at all. When you take hardware like Playstation - XBOX etc those exclusives exist for the sole purpose to sell that hardware and therefore generate more revenue via game sales overall. There is no split community in hardware exclusives. All who buy the game can and do play together. This is a mayor difference! You heard for sure the term "pc master race" , it comes mostly from the fact that we PC gamers were most of the history in gaming , totally free from "exclusives" and split communities. For me one of the main reasons to dislike EPIC was that it is yet another launcher on my PC. Why you do not want many launchers? Take lessons learned from things like the bethesda launcher. Split community in the crap game FO76 until recently and other crappy bethesda games. Now when those launchers fail you see those games coming to steam, WHERE we ALL ARE. Steam has proven itself, other launchers just want a piece of the pie BUT in the end they shoot themselves in the foot. Its about not sharing profits and all those decisions have little to do with us players. Its marketing BS and at least I think what is the best for the player and not what is best for the company. Take GOG where their storefront made like what 20 thousand bucks in a year. Thats like nothing but for CD Projekt red it is NOT about profit with the storefront but rather the good will of the playerbase. I could go on forever..

[@macscoop1]

@@lovelee572 totally agree. Thanks for being civil.

[@RavenGlenn]

This would be a lot more interesting if they were actually seriously trying to defend their side of the argument. Jack is making no effort because he doesn't actually believe Epic should be boycotted. Great. So...what's the point of this then? There's no actual debate. He's essentially throwing it for Yahtzee to hit out of the park. He could have talked about how PC's are already a platform. We already get games that consoles don't get and vice versa. We don't need 20 different platforms on PC that each have their own exclusive titles. It it terribly bad for consumers and the idea that: "Well, they aren't charging more than others!" is a silly argument because they CAN do so at any moment. The moment a publisher believes that they can charge more for their product because people WILL buy it and their store is the only option? They will. But at the moment, that's not even the point. The point is that customer freedom and choice is being taken away by third parties. I didn't buy an Xbox because I don't want one. I spent a lot of money to build a high-end gaming PC so that I could pick up and play any and all games I like, however I like. If a game has oppressive DRM like Denuvo, a massive portion of the gaming population simply won't buy it. Epic is a new form of DRM that locks you into a platform that most of us hate. It doesn't function well, they've made no effort to improve it despite having all of the money in the world, and we have no idea if they are using any of our data for purposes other than buying and playing games.

[@plaguerat5911]

Boycotts generally really arent that effective without a lot of organization from people over an extended period of time.

[@MarkERoth]

If you are going to argue about Steam Vs Epic you will have to go all the way back and argue against console exclusives, store exclusive preorders, and developer exclusives.

[@ForOne814]

Ok, all of those are shit as well.

[@Golem29]

Tencent is pretty much the reason it should be boycotted. The other anti consumer stuff is just window dressing really.

[@mangadevourer378]

Tencent is literally in anything , if i had to boycott them I wouldn't play anything besides Japanese games.

[@powerthunfischdesdonners3086]

@@mangadevourer378 tencent is the nestle of gaming.

[@WMan37]

Why is it so hard for people to curate their own experience? Any time I hear "well steam just lets ANYTHING on their platform" I'm like "Yeah? You mean it's easy to get your game onto a store without much hassle or bureaucratic bullshit? That's a bad thing for developers?" My brain (and ignore button conveniently located on a game's store page) just filters out the anime tiddy games because I can make my own standards and not buy it instead of going on a self righteous diatribe on twitter about it meanwhile the people who like that stuff get to play it degeneracy be damned, and I get to find hidden gems because there's not a layer in between me and a game like Thief Simulator, which seems upon first glance to be a UEngine 4 lazy asset flip cashing in on the "simulator" meme but instead has gained something of a cult following in spite of it's janky presentation. Also, the "Steam is a monopoly" thing doesn't work when if you put your game on steam, you can also put it on GoG, itchio, etc. within the first year but you _can not_ do that if you sign epic exclusivity, and the irony in that argument is frustrating as a result. -(I know that this series is about playing devil's advocate and people in it don't always hold the opinions they espouse but)- What kind of lame person _wouldn't_ want to eat, party, and get drunk with a bunch of badass vikings? That'd make a night to remember instead of going to the same chilis restaurant down the street where you know exactly what to expect. Chilis will always be there, vikings could sail away to valhalla at any moment.

[@corwin32]

“Store-platform-thing”. Damn, I just can’t keep up with his rapier wit and technical jargon

[@therealsunnyk]

It's not a "store", it's DRM (just like Steam). That's the point. You don't "purchase" from the store and then off you go, using the game freely. You are permanently connected to the store forevermore and they write the rules under which you can play the games. Everyone hated this about Steam but over time it became a "devil you know" thing. Nobody says anything about Gog and Humble, and the reason is that they are actual storefronts. You get game. You play game. Epic doesn't want to be the storefront, they want to be the DRM. The platform. The whole kit and kaboodle. Some games will never come to Gog and some games will only come to humble with a Steam key. Epic wants to be the steam key.

[@jamessilva1259]

This is my preference. While I really do love the idea of competition. Competition is good. Steam, Gog, and now their is Epic store...The tactic that Epic store uses, I believe is extremely foul. Infact it is so foul that Steam can just keep doing what their doing. Plus the spyware crap, makes the Viking table of Steam, look completely innocent and safe, compared to identity theft.

[@Dimencia]

I don't understand why people think Epic are the bad guys here (besides the Tencent BS, which, to be fair, they are). They're just making an offer. If the gamedevs decide to take their game to the platform that offers better revenue, then maybe the other platforms should consider some changes to prevent that

[@jamessilva1259]

@@Dimencia that isn't why at all. It is because of all the shady and broken promises epics store did since release. Since launch there was nothing but cons on Epic game stores. They had a built malware to monitor your friends list, and game preference on steam. Eventually Valve threatened them to remove it. You cannot review games and warned people if it is a lemon product... Lack of features they promise on release, like. No workshop, cart! Forums, organized library, pretty much all the essential stuff. I will say this again competition is good, but!!! Bribing developers to go exclusive, is more of a form of Monopoling then competing. We complainers DON'T want a digital Walmart. Lastly, read the users agreement in Epic store. They can at anytime remove any game you purchase for no reason. Which if something would happen to steam and Gog, they most likely would start removing games from your library, or make them require a monthly subscription. To put it simple, Epic has given developers better deals then Steam (That can be good) BUT! At The costs of the costumer! (BAD).

[@blaegme]

Yatzee: talks about "no curation". Me: "I recognize that blurred image."

[@whothoughthandleswereagoodidea]

I think it depends on the type of exclusivity deal. If it's an exclusive from the start (or from early development) then I don't see any problem with it. If it's slated for all platforms until the last 2 weeks before it's out (like with metro), then I think things like that shouldn't even be legal.

[@NekoiNemo]

1:11 Shouldn't Yahtzee be the one emphasising that his position was assigned by a coin toss? Because i'm pretty sure person defending exclusives is the one who will get most hate, not the one who argues for their boycotting.

[@Zero_Shift]

This isn't even debate worthy. It's a simple answer. Should you support the company that tries to get your money in the scummiest ways possible, with affiliations to other shady companies? Absolutely not. Boycott EA, Ubisoft and Epic Games. Support GoG and other similar minded people. Anti DRM, since that shit is anti consumer.

[@briskguy7399]

I don't buy from epic because I use steam's Big Picture mode and the ability to rebind controller buttons on the fly.

[@jan_h]

I think you can add them as a non-Steam game and play them with rebinding that way.

[@carrot708]

I'm not sure if it's a boycott of any exclusive games if you refuse to make an Epic Games store account in the first place.

[@carlosmiguelteixeiraott3643]

I personally don't give a sh*t about exclusivity when we're talking about epic and steam, I really hated (and still hate) Console exclusivity because it forces people to buy a console if they want to play game X or Y, but i refuse to use Epic Games Store because: a) I hate the chinese goverment and just about everything they stand for and B) a pirate life's for me.

[@thethinkingcatakaneonormie3527]

It is weird to me as I'm 43 so I remember when there were console exclusivity was the norm if you wanted streets of Rage you got Genesis/Mega Drive you wanted Super Star Wars you got the SNES if you wanted Die Hard Arcade you got the Saturn if you wanted Syphon Filter you got the PSX

[@WilliamifyXyz]

Personally I'm not a massive fan of Epic Store, it's an inferior platform and it doesn't even have sodding achievements. They're just offering a worse service for us and expecting us to care that they give more money to developers and stuff.

[@saunshilu]

I wouldnt care about epic if they didnt lock games to their platform they had no help in making ecept for a giant sack of cash at the 11th hour to "secure" te game to the platform

[@johnstonefield1935]

I never even thought of the achievements, are they that big of a deal for you? I view them as at best a developers list of "here's cool things to do in my game", but they could just as well have that list on their website to me. Edit: I don't like Epic because I don't like exclusives and don't want another platform. I'm perfectly happy to wait a year for games to get released on steam since I have a massive backlog anyway.

[@zsheets7483]

The money goes to the developers only if those devs self-publish. If they go through another publisher like Deep Silver, the Epic Store money goes first to them, then to the developers based on whatever the agreement was or what the publisher feels like giving them.

[@zsheets7483]

@@Anthonyspartan514 The difference on consoles is that first-party games are more heavily featured to sell the hardware. Even in the console space, third-party exclusives shouldn't exist.

[@WilliamifyXyz]

@@johnstonefield1935 I like getting platinums / 100% achievements for games I really love, like death stranding or borderlands or something, but the thing is that they don't think of us, achievements aren't the biggest deal in the world but why don't they have them, my parents got me a PlayStation 3 for my 6th birthday and even that had trophies, that was longer than a decade ago! So why doesn't Epic have this ancient technology?

[@tamandatroell2892]

I love these. What a great video concept. Live cartoon debates about video games. I like both your reviews i hope you will make more videos like this together.

[@onatgz]

steam is valhalla with anime pr0n, wich is a-ok on my book.

[@Nuggette]

I honestly don't get why people always use this as a bad thing when they talk about steam. Like your arguement is that allowing people to sell the product they made is a bad idea? Or are we supposed to restrict people from making and buying things they like?

[@ArlanKels]

I was talking to my buddy about how if there's ever a Steam-esque store for porn games, where it guarantees no malware/viruses in the software it's peddling, it'll become one of the biggest online markets in the world.

[@Satan666PhD]

Amen to that brother

[@PeteGeek676]

Not boycotted as such but if this whole "choose our launcher or nothing" thing is an ultimatum, then I ultimately choose nothing. Really not like I'm missing out. If anything, publishers are missing out, by not launching on all platforms/launchers.

[@tc2241]

First things first: I for one welcome our Communist overlords. All hail Pooh! Second: screw your exclusivity

[@Bonovasitch]

8:00 - 8:25 is the most beautifully comical argument I have ever heard

[@Wildboy789789]

The disgusting behavior is that epic bribes companies to avoid steam... its like if i opened a burger place, and paid farmers to sign a contract to not sell beef to mcdonalds... i make a shit burger but hey, im the only burger in town

[@devinhudson541]

Fuck me these are too good. These videos aren't about the debate but an open look at both sides of an argument and to take a look at both ideas and thoughts of the other side. I love it

[@Bilskirnir3124]

Haven't watched the video yet. Just wanted to say that no argument is going to stop me from waiting until the exclusive hits GOG or Steam to buy.

[@606hunter1]

If you pay for the development, I don't care if it's an exclusive. That doesn't apply if they pay money to keep it a timed exclusive for me. For the other part of the question, I'm all for supporting people boycotting things for whatever reason they want. It's their right to not support companies that do things they don't like. As someone that's boycotted EA, Bethesda, Activision-Blizzard, 2k, and so on I understand my decision impacts next to nothing but I stand by that choice. It's hard when those companies release games I'd enjoy but when there's thousands of new games a year it's not like I lack options.

[@nixishierfrei]

Wasn't the flag for representing the link between Epic, Tencent and the chinese government the soviet flag?

[@KorboQ]

Yeah, what's weird is that the Chinese flag was put on Yahtzee's podium, so I dunno what happened there

[@privateprofessor1212]

I love zero punctuation and the idea of this type of debate show but sadly the conversation feels very dry and not fluid.

[@15oClock]

My gripes against the Epic Store are "No chat function" and "No wishlist." They got the latter, so I'm hoping they'll have the former.

[@Wylie288]

chat function? Its a store not a fucking social media platform

[@Jeffknolan]

@@Wylie288 It's a games launcher with a store and whilst that doesn't necessitate chat functionality and multiplayer API it's something the competition has and is used by many users

[@Wylie288]

@@Jeffknolan No one uses steams chat. And steams forums are just filled with toxic idiots. Lets stop pretending anyone that matters uses anything but discord.

[@Jeffknolan]

@@Wylie288 Before Discord it's what me and my friends used and I'm sure it's what a majority of more casual gamers/non-Discord users will use. I'm not arguing for the forums or that the Epic store needs to be a place for discussion but an inbuilt chat system is incredibly useful for online multiplayer games and I hope they add it in the future.

[@Wylie288]

@@ichijofestival2576 When did i say i wasn't one of the steam forum users? How do you think i know who hangs on them exactly? I am in the EXACT position to be labeling people that.

[@slothfulcobra]

I think it's weird to have a conversation about this without talking about the other online stores, like Origin that is vertically integrated with a major publisher so it has in-house exclusives, or GoG which is forging its own weirdly benevolent path separate from the rest by trying to integrate your other game store accounts into its UI platform and also being very thorough with providing support for its products. of course, maybe that's just me being bored of the base concept since the idea of platform-exclusive games has been around for over 30 years and it's not changing anytime soon.

[@stephenjones2259]

Valve also allowed hunt down the freeman showing they don't care much anymore

[@Cyan-hide]

In the end, customers will gravitated towards convenience. Those that can’t be bothered to install the Epic Store won’t get those exclusive and will simply buy it when/if it to comes to steam. Besides, we all know how “gamer boycotts” go. Hint: they generally don’t last very long.