Should Leftist Engineers Take Jobs With Defense Contractors?

If you're a young leftist coming out of college with an engineering degree is it ethical to take a job with a defense contractor? One listener is in that exact predicament. He said there aren't engineering jobs available in the US in green energy and public transit. The jobs are at Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrup Grumman.
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Caller: So I'm like I'm an engineering student senior in college looking for jobs. It's very stressful and I'm still not getting any jobs. But I think it's just important to raise awareness to the fact that there's a lot of like engineering students to military defense contractors like pipelines in the United States. a lot of the jobs a lot of the recruiting that happens at engineering schools a lot of that goes like to Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing all these companies are just like massive defensive defense contractors. and it just sort of sucks because there's nothing you can do about it. and like you look at job postings in Europe and a lot of them are for renewable energy and for train development and public transit. and here it's like well if you're like a genius you can go to SpaceX and then otherwise you're going to be like a defense contractor. And a lot of that's just like a product of like there's so much money for like development of bombers that like that's where the jobs are. But I also have a question for you guys and you might not have an answer but do you think as someone who likes I want the military budget to go significantly down. I don't want the US military to be all over the world. Like, is it moral or ethical for me to like to take a job in that field if that's like the only place where I'm going to be able to get a job? because I need to make money and it sort of sucks. but like and like what solutions do you think engineers there on the left can like to try to affect change in this field?

[@whatsanobeen]

I had a friend that gave her whole life since graduating high school in ‘08 to working towards climate change solutions as a coastal engineer. After she got all the academic work necessary to be a candidate in the field, she still couldn’t find work for a firm that matched her life goal once she was actively seeking by 2014. Year and a half later, I found out she did find a firm to get by. It was with a company tasked with government contracts of making fracking somewhat more “efficient.” Later in my life, when I learned that a lot engineering jobs/projects are formed by what national governments were willing to allocate funds toward, I thought it selfish to be upset at her for her choices rather than for my government for what they will prioritize funding for.

[@gizzhead7941]

Assuming fracking exists, I'd rather it be as energy efficient as possible. Lol

[@harrisn3693]

Sounds communistic of the US government..

[@eleanoraquitaine2966]

I worked for defense contractors in the 1960s and 1970s. One of the engineers I worked with (who was also a vice president) had a peace symbol on his car. I worked with him and got to know him and he really was a peacenik. When I asked him why he was working for them, he said "They need people like me to keep them from going batshit crazy". Truly, defense contractors NEED sane people in their ranks. It takes a brave engineer to work with some of those sociopathic assholes in defense industry power positions.

[@eleanoraquitaine2966]

​@@thegags In the richest industry in the richest country in the world, there have to be good people with a conscience in their ranks to monitor them and keep them contaned as much as possible. The stakes are absolutely no higher.

[@f.osborn1579]

That’s a great point, I (as an engineering student) have wondered that myself.

[@BarnacleBoy42069]

I like how we call them "defense contractors" when we're invading shit most of the time

[@eleanoraquitaine2966]

@@BarnacleBoy42069 Calling it the defense industry is a bit of a stretch.

[@SpoopySquid]

"They need people like me to keep them from going batshit crazy" Either he's lying to you about his reasoning or he's truly deluded

[@ThreaT650]

I remember my old physics teacher in college saying that I know a lot of you are engineering majors in this class and I am telling you to please try and avoid working for military weapon contractors. He said don't use your expertise and education to the detriment of humanity, it's not worth the money you make. It was based af.

[@selfishcapitalist3523]

So, conservatives are right to allege leftist infiltration of academia.

[@ThreaT650]

​@@selfishcapitalist3523 If being a huminatarian is now leftist infiltration, then the right wing ideology should be wiped from the planet by way of education.

[@ThreaT650]

@@selfishcapitalist3523 and those who are well educated and decide to cling to a worldview that is to the detriment of society and the rest of the world, they should be ostracized. We shouldn't be friendly with people who are for blowing up millions of brown people at the expense of an insane amount of our own tax dollars, while our people starve.

[@ThreaT650]

@@Pedro-0839 Freedom doesn't come by dropping a bomb or invading other countries. Liberation isn't won with Lockhead Martin and Raytheon contracts. My grandfather headed projects at Raytheon. That's a bad take, not a spicy one.

[@distorta]

​@@ThreaT650 Good on you for advocating for deescalation as we all should! These weapons only jeopardize our future through each iteration. If these weapons are used in totality, we all will lose.

[@Sergio-er1ez]

its so tough coming out of college and all you want is a job to get engineering experience under your belt and there is so much military defense jobs

[@TheNaqoyqatZ]

Don't worry. Capitalism will fix everything ;)

[@Pistolita221]

@@TheNaqoyqatZ By ending the food surplus that allows for large workforces of engineers? lmao, I know you're being facetious, I just had to anyways.

[@TheNaqoyqatZ]

@@Pistolita221 Lol, no, by allowing more idiots to buy more useless products that further the problem. I think you knew that though ;-)

[@peggylopez8070]

My favorite human being ever had a PhD in Physics and when he saw who he could work for he decided to stay working for the port in Seattle checking things off and on boats. He decided not to engage in any direct harm to the world. A simple answer is NO.

[@Cancellator5000]

Interesting. I'm trying to finish my PhD in Physics in Seattle at the moment and I've kind of avoided graduating because of this. What I'm doing now isn't harmful and is pretty cool and there's no end to things I could keep working on, but it seems like if I were to stay in Seattle after this I would have trouble finding something I'm ok with. Somebody who was in my research group in the past became a farmer. Another is helping with the tech side of a dog-walking business. It's sad because our society is terrible at using the talent that we have for anything positive and the things that are positive are always going to pay a lot less than the ones that are evil.

[@peggylopez8070]

@@Cancellator5000 I am 79 years old and my friend, Myles no longer with us, was about 5 years older than me. He graduated some time in the 1960's and things were much the same back then politically as they are today. The battle lines were different in that much of the racism, sexism, anti-nuclear, and anti war was more in your face than today. Still the oppressor's had different names while politics were the same.

[@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821]

He sounds cool, but I think Physics can have non military use. What about work in theoretical physics?

[@Cancellator5000]

@@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821 I think the problem with Seattle is that the jobs you are likely to get are in industry rather than doing experimental or theoretical research focused on fundamental physics. It's really competitive to stay in academia or be a research scientist. Also, with fundamental physics research you do have the potential to develop something that has a military use even if its original purpose was benign.

[@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821]

@@Cancellator5000 Of course but there are purely academic applications as well. Ultimately leftists in STEM have to try our best to not add more violence into our world.

[@kupaz]

Exactly why I switched out of aerospace to mechanical engineering. It's so hard not to feel like if you go into aerospace you're setting yourself up for working for a defense contract

[@TheNaqoyqatZ]

The government should be doing a moonshot on climate change, not cancer. Not that cancer doesn't deserve something close to a moonshot, but let's use that term where it's needed.

[@tinoyb9294]

Turned down a job at Martin Marrieta years ago because they couldn't guarantee I would be working on aerospace projects and not for the military. Boy, that headhunter was pissed even though I told him I wouldn't ahead of time.

[@factanonverba7547]

@@tinoyb9294 they assumed the smell of the salary would turn you into a troglodyte

[@kevinconrad6156]

@@tinoyb9294 turned down a couple jobs at the proven ground because I didn’t want to provide environmental cover for defense contractors

[@nothingtoitbuttodoit]

@@blasphimus what's salary look like at a place like that

[@jessetorres8738]

It's hard for Liberals to not take a job with a company that pays well and works with their college education but at the same time is a company we know is corrupt, treats their workers badly, or damages the environment. An Amazon plant opened up here in Central Texas and some of my family say I should try to get a job there since it pays better then my current job, but based on stories I've heard from people who have worked there it doesn't seem like the money would be worth the stress and danger. Also, I have an uncle who works for Lockheed Martin and he has recommended entry level positions at the company for me to apply for, but I want to run for office someday and I'm worried that having connections with Lockheed won't be good if I run as a Progressive Democrat that wants to cut back on Military Industrial Complex spending.

[@synchronium24]

" I want to run for politics someday and I'm worried have connections with Lockheed won't be good if I run as a Progressive Democrat that wants to cut back on Military Industrial Complex spending." Unless you can spin it into "were gonna fund Medicare for All and make Lockheed pay for it", probably so.

[@vogelvogeltje]

@Alabama Man Special Edition damn, you’re trolling this video too? You have nothing better to do, huh? You must be miserable.

[@Cancellator5000]

Yeah, I have family that are part of the military industrial complex and bring up that I could easily find a job that would pay a lot more than anything else I could find. I'm not thinking about becoming a politician, but I just don't really want to feel like what I'm doing is contrary to my ideals. I can live with something that is basically neutral.

[@jessetorres8738]

@@aYTperson: You're right. There were some grammar mistakes in my comment. Thanks for pointing that out so I could fix them.

[@nelsonth]

@@vogelvogeltje I mean, KZbin counts dislikes and all comments as engagement too, thus potentially pushing the videos up the algorithm, so I guess the jokes on him 😁🤣

[@jpwilker5954]

I am an aerospace engineering major, and i think this is most prevalent in this specific field. Mechanicals, electricals, etc can find jobs in many disciplines in engineering. When more people devote to companies whom invest in renewable energy and modern clean solutions, those companies can grow and make more of an impact. It can be harder for Aero engineers to get jobs working in persay, renewable energy, as theres just a lot of skills and knowledge not learned that is needed for the job. In my head, the best solution is to make renewable energy an easier degree for students to get, mixing environmental sciences and electrical engineering, especially if solar is the main focus. I'm sure coursework could be manipulated to make some great engineers who can change the world for better. -JP

[@dharmadove]

I did. Not all government / miltary contracts are bad. There are many options for good NOT killing. Worked for NASA, NHC, NOAA, USAF, NCAR, NWS, others.... Military brat. Both parents.

[@jambi1527]

@@americanhero8606. I wish the industry was more open but the field is totally not as open as it should be when it comes to transferable skills. It's easier to leave the field than switch within it in this day. Maybe not in the 80s as much, but it's stupid now.

[@jambi1527]

Agreed. Government money needs to go to other avenues that need the skills of engineers that are not defense specific, but that can only happen with policy changes and actual infrastructure and build back better legislation.

[@Nonresponder01]

@@americanhero8606 tell that to employers. Some hire engineers from other specializations, but aerospace is so specialized it doesn't transfer as well as something like mechanical to electro. Aero is part of mechanical, but even then it can be hard to get an ME job as an AE outside of the aerospace/defense field. Specializations do matter if that's what they're looking for.

[@LouisKing995]

Who are you and why are you signing off your comment with your initials like they mean something ?

[@cooragedp]

As an engineer on the left I morally could not work at a defense contractor. I always found it paradoxical that a lot of my classmates had their eyes laser focused on it. We have so many areas we can improve our society (climate, infrastructure!) with engineering, but we don't invest enough.

[@Pistolita221]

Really what we need is mass transit, japan and china are in an HSR race, to see who's HSR track will the standard for international lines, when HSR eclipses air as the preferred high-speed transit method (probably by the end of the next decade). Such a shame the USA isn't even attempting to compete. We have a super conductor-rail acceleration program, it's called the railgun, it's just not subsidized by SC Maglev infrastructure improvements that boost economic output. It doesn't make sense to spend all your resources designing ways to break things. It IS more profitable to be the producer, and more politically advantageous in a globalized society, than to be the martial and spend all your best mind on destruction. China is proving that.

[@Nonresponder01]

A lot of people are romanticized by the whole "making airplanes and engineering feats like the sr71" and don't really think about what it actually means to work for a defense contractor. As they start to learn more there may be some cognitive dissonance. I still experience CD because I'd love to a part of such aerospace innovations, but I also know that ultimately they would be weapon of war.

[@sirius1696]

@@Pistolita221 i love when people say "compete with China". What competition? It's already over. Chins spends 13 figures (trillions USD) on infrastructure annually. We can't even agree to spend that much over a decade. What a waste

[@Pistolita221]

@@sirius1696 We COULD still try, give it 5-10 more years of this trajectory, we'll have a proper civil war, and then it'll really be over.

[@edwarddeberry2404]

My best friend actually lived your dilemma. He worked as an aerospace engineer for Martin Lockheed for 40 yrs.. He would only work on defense missiles to defend against attacks. He refused to work on offensive weaponry.

[@sirius1696]

Nah dude, it's United States, it's all offensive

[@ee-ef8qr]

So he probably worked on thaad or pac 3

[@ervin7178]

I’m an engineering student and a veteran so I would probably have a fairly easy time getting internships and later a job with defense contractors but fuck them.

[@jackmonki]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too harsh, but if you even have to ask this question, you don't have convictions. I too was in the college to defense industry pipeline, and had a guaranteed job at Raytheon out of school, but I outright rejected the offer due to my beliefs. Yes it was much harder to find another job, but it was something I personally had to do

[@traplover6357]

Individual change like one's job doesn't affect systems.

[@jackmonki]

@@traplover6357 I'm not saying not accepting the job would change anything overall. What I'm saying, is I personally think if you take the job, you don't truly care about what horrors the company takes part in. I myself couldn't live with myself if I worked for a defense contractor. My initial message wasn't so much about systematic change, but more about personal convictions. As mentioned, I think if you even have to ask yourself this question, then you already know what matters more to you.

[@cool_sword]

@@traplover6357 I can personally tell you that if you do the wrong thing for money, and you think it's wrong, you will care, regardless of whether your participation makes a difference on a systemic level or not. The first time I discovered a client had a sloppy death transporting their product, reported it up, and was told that it didn't matter because the guy who died was a contractor driving a non-client vehicle, with the reasoning illustrated by an example in a country (Zambia) I can't describe in my superior's language without my comment getting removed, all the "I won't have an effect on a systemic level" nonsense I'd told myself slid right out of my brain. While working for a client that wanted to get rid of its acquisition target's employee's accrued benefits I quit more or less on the spot. They never lost their benefits, thank god. Would those employees have cared that I didn't make a systemic difference? Would they have cared that I had the right ideas in my head while I got rich off of destabilizing their lives? Or would they have cared that I helped make sure it was legal to do it? It is impossible to have certain jobs and be a good person. If you don't understand that, like OP said, you don't have convictions. If I'd believed what I said I believed, I'd never have taken that job. That simple. Do you know how much you can justify by telling yourself "my non-participation in this entirely optional but completely unethical activity will make no difference on a systemic level?" Two hundred years ago, you'd be using that same logic to justify buying and selling me.

[@dalmarahmed8499]

@@traplover6357 Jack is a saint - a modern day Snowden 🤣🤣 Another 10 folks who'll take the job Earn some good money, live a nice life

[@johnjohn2570]

@@dalmarahmed8499 yeah someone has to operate the gas chambers and if not him then someone else will. Ain’t that right buddy?

[@chrisball3778]

Improvements in military technology don't automatically equal more deaths. It's obscene that the US spends so much more on the military than stuff that actually makes everybody on earth safer, but having newer weapons doesn't actually mean they kill more people. Sometimes it's the opposite. Some of the worst atrocities of the post WWII era were committed with very basic technology- the Cambodian and Rwandan genocides were mostly done with farm tools.

[@jimbobschaoscorral7698]

I wouldnt wanna chance making a fuckin dime for Raytheon and friends.

[@dillonnauta8601]

No, but it equals more military adventurism. An increased ability in remote operations increases precision and decreases collateral. This makes intervention more likely.

[@chiphill4856]

True there is a focus on limited collateral damage. But thinking about war and killing everyday is a total drag.

[@wizardoffrobozz]

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down, that's not my department says Werner Von Braun" -a line from a Tom Lehrer Song

[@factanonverba7547]

Always loved that guy's fearless creativity.

[@jambi1527]

So true it hurts...

[@jambi1527]

Ahhhhh this is meeee. I just left a defense contractor as an engineer and completely switched careers. I wanted to be a mechanical/aerospace engineer, but working in defense or automotive were the only things in my area with lots of jobs available...I actually said no to a GD job, but I could justify other work because some stuff was just for commercial aviation and search and rescue, so I did work a few years with that in mind but I did have to make myself feel better by coosing to not know where some of the components were going. I think for other engineers in this predicament, since you would have had no idea when you started university that you'd feel this way when you started working, is to learn some other skill on the side while working those first few years then quickly switch. Engineers don't make that much in comparison to other jobs that are in that technical problem solving arena. I chose business and data science as my side learning passion and after a couple years made the job into a more fulfilling and better paying path that includes many aspects that I thought I'd love from engineering but that the environment didn't provide. I'm sure I'll still have to work on some projects that I don't 100% agree with, but like I hope I have some control to not work for a place like GD that is actively destroying Yemen.

[@jordanwright6628]

You rock! Engineers are next to those who study medicine. (for me) Peace.

[@jambi1527]

@@jordanwright6628 that's so nice of you! Thanks!

[@WilliamJames48]

On one hand fuck no, on the other hand you gotta make a buck somehow. Hate the game, not the player.

[@drawingdraws618]

In the end you are the one that must live with what you have done for the rest of your life, I couldn’t look my self in the mirror, but that’s my conscience. ✋🤞✌️

[@krillin6]

If no one played, there would be no game.

[@movdqa]

My son ran into this with a computer science degree graduating into a horrible job market and he went for his masters and got hired halfway through it doing work in cancer genomics (he took at least one bioinformatics course in the masters program). They covered the rest of his graduate school too. It is certainly a very tough situation and the work environment may not be the best. As a pragmatic matter, it might be best to take a job with one of these companies and then work on an exit plan such as going to school for something else. I imagine, though, that it would be hard to give your best effort at something that you fundamentally disagree with and that might show in your work.

[@elihan9]

I'm an environmental engineer. I work for a local government on water quality and flooding projects in a rural area. My father wanted me to become a petroleum engineer. I told him I wasn't going to become Chevron's next Yes Man. Yes, I make less but I have enough to live and thrive. No matter where I go, I can make a comfortable life. My engineering degree affords me that.

[@cam6887]

Good for you!!

[@elihan9]

@@cam6887 thank you.

[@user-rx2ur5el9p]

No, unless you're willing to go Edward Snowden on them when the time is right.

[@rodanone4895]

okay... it doesn't matter if you're an engineer or a baker... you support the system. the question really is how many degrees of separation from the bombs do you want. it's like the atmosphere, the military industrial complex doesn't stop at the doors of lockheed martin...

[@nicelytoastedd]

Im a software engineer and the the companies that want me are either Facebook, twitter, google, or amazon. or they work and make products for facebook, twitter, google, or amazon. It's a trap of creation for corporations and i have no way out :)

[@sirius1696]

I would've taken that over the defense and intelligence jobs that were most of the job listings as a software engineer where i live

[@Cherrymaxx]

Here is a problem with left leaning or progressive thinkers avoiding working in a defense capacity or traditional conservative career or maintenance facility: if you don’t work there then there is a distillation of ultra conservative minds and it creates a great place for open conversation about overthrowing the government and support for white supremacy ideals. There really is a lack of perspective in these spaces and it takes a really strong will to go to work every day knowing you will have to confront racism, sexism, and open support for political violence, but we need a voice of reason in these places.

[@stevethecatcouch6532]

The options for engineering students were set when today's engineering students entered kindergarten.

[@Ganjin88]

My only regret is leaving the defense industry sooner. I'm almost 10 yrs in the Defense industry working as an engineer. I came to a realization late last year I'm done with the defense industry and currently in the process of switching industries. Most of the projects I've worked on are barely marketable in other industries. This is why I'm learning new skills while I'm not at work. Disclaimer, I'm not a leftist but I find defense jobs have people with right-leaning ideas.

[@BH-rm8vd]

Space/defense is still pretty young when compared to a lot of other industries. Space was originally 100% government, but it is currently undergoing big changes, and as commercial space continues to evolve, more jobs will be available that don't involve defense contracts.

[@StatsMass]

The engineering school - defense contractor pipeline is STRONG

[@bullet996]

Comp engineer here and I say if I'm offered a good contract I'd sign without hesitation.

[@RichRich1955]

I worked as a tech for BAE 10yr until I couldn't stand it anymore. Had enough to retire. The defense contractors hire lots of engineers. I think more than half of the 50k employees were engineers there. Having so many chickenhawk-incompetant-engineers only caring about making it to the next program without layoff. Take 10 of them and put them together you might get one good one.

[@Ganjin88]

I currently work at a defense contractor (I won't say the name of it) as an engineer, and I can attest to your statement. I lost count of how many times engineers ask me the same questions when the answers are in the documentation. I'm updating my skills since I made the decision that I'm tired of the whole industry.

[@Binstone]

Emma's wrong. dead wrong, I know several engineers, who work in things outside the defense industry.... yeah, it's things like designing electrical systems in apartment complexes, but it's an engineering gig. There is however no way to not contribute to overproduction problem with an engineering degree. Yeah, you wont be making bombers, but you will be making cheap condos that foreign and domestic businessmen will just buy and not use. But there are shades....

[@gizzhead7941]

"There is no way not to contribute to the overproduction problem with an engineering degree" I think that's just an overstatement though. The externalities of a particular type of manufacturing aren't always overproduction. Take metal recycling (or literally anything in sustainable energy) for example: naiavely you could argue that the environmental externalities of metal recycling at the local level (on air quality) is negative, but that'd be overlooking how that offsets the emissions from mining new metals. Sometimes production in one place negates the need for production in another. Not all engineering is the same kind of industry.

[@vgaportauthority9932]

Windmill engineers be like "what? fuck..." Nuclear power plant engineers be like "What?... fucking.. I thought we were doing good over here...." Agricultural engineers be like "wait what? Fuck.. I guess efficient farming methods are wasteful, back to steam engines and a million smaller tractors and harvesters I guess!" Engineers designing cars be like "but... I thought the electric car would be a step forward.. fuck.... Back to V8s I guess." Engineers looking for more efficient ways to heat and cool housing be like "what? Ok, back to poor isolation, 1960s aircons and electric heating I guess." Your argument is trash from an ass.

[@Binstone]

@@gizzhead7941 that is an overstatement, I'm just talking about the engineers i have known, and their jobs, which vary from designing electrical systems in condos, to designing electrical systems in air conditioning. These people were all in texas and oklahoma though, and it would be possible to offset emmissions even in those fields, but they weren't.... because it was texas and oklahoma

[@Binstone]

@@vgaportauthority9932 Well, you probably live in a better place than me, but where i live conspicuous consumption is the king. That and speculating, thus that new and improved heating/cooling system will be rather wasteful in fancy condos meant for billionaires to speculate with. I will say this, your arguments aren't trash from an ass, but they would only work to combat climate change in a socialist society of some sort. Fancy electric cars are great for the envirenment, if their power doesn't come from dirty fuels. They don't have to come from dirty fuels, but dirty fuels are much more profitable than the alternative. Essentially, just as their is no ethical consumption under capitalism, there is no ethical production either

[@recidivist8427]

I am an ex aerospace machinist. I do water treatment now. I was able to acquire a ton of job skills from that. Utilize skills you learn from these things and take as much as you can from them. Waste as much of their capitol as you possibly can. Lockheed Martin regularly tries to recruit me. Phone calls and emails often. Good luck in the job market caller.

[@ZSAITOSEI]

Oh crap this is me like every other week 😅 working at the bottom of the production chain for the plastics industry in a machine shop, I'm always seeing company names on the top of jobs to make that make my insides twist in a very uncomfortable way. I've had to make parts for Northrup, Boeing, Raytheon, every major plastics polluter, major sweatshop clothing companies, etc. It breaks my brain seeing all the trouble the industry at large causes but being the smallest rung and tiniest power in the company it's very hard to reconcile having to contribute to it, knowing that even refusing to work the job will not stop them from doing all the messed up stuff they do. It's hard, and takes a LOT of pretending you aren't helping billionaires wage wars across the world and instead just chugging through a long day to make enough to get by. Choices in the machinist industry near me are pretty slim, either you're working for a shitty industry that pollutes and ruins the planet or a military industrial complex company.

[@masercot]

I'm an engineer and I've worked for defense contractors. We all have lines and my line was not to be involved with anything that killed people...

[@gopackgo4036]

Your salary was paid for my dropping bombs on other people. Simple as that. Also it’s an offense contractor, not a defense contractor. If your making bombers your on offense not defense.

[@masercot]

@@gopackgo4036 Well, ya had nothin' to say and you said it.

[@gopackgo4036]

@@masercot sorry you don’t like facing the reality of your salary

[@masercot]

@@gopackgo4036 Everybody's salary comes from somewhere, child.

[@gopackgo4036]

@@masercot yep, and yours happens to be from killing other people.

[@Pistolita221]

It is so fantastic to hear this engineers perspective!

[@mosesallowit2824]

When you are straight out of college you don't have a choice where you work. Its only when you get 3-5 yrs experience that you can actually have a choice where you work.

[@MrTwindog4]

I am not a college student, now the aerospace engineering is starting privatization, contracts with NASA, Musk’s Space Program and Amazon’s space programs are expanding beyond Defense Contractors . Yes, Boeing builds warplanes and and drones but they also build passenger plans and other aircraft. We all have to find careers that we like and also balance ways to earn a living & fulfill financial obligations. .

[@f.osborn1579]

Buckminster Fuller in one of his books coined the term “livingry” like housing, food production, etc. as opposed to ” killingry” as in guns, tanks, MIC stuff...arguing we should invest more money/brain power in improving society not wasting brain power and such resources on developing weapons and tools of subjugation.

[@Pistolita221]

tools of destruction. We'll be king of what? Glass? Seems kinda, not the goal.

[@chiphill4856]

Long live the memory of Bucky!

[@didiermejia780]

Just take your pick from the offers you get that will give you the experience you need to work at your "dream" job. That's what I did, now I work on Orion deep space exploration vehicle.

[@tylerbrown9797]

So then you are participating in immoral things so you can get your dream job? At what point does that become unethical and immoral? This is kind of a shitty rationalization, you could just as easily decide that your selfish pursuit of a dream job isn't worth contributing harm to the world along the way to getting there.

[@didiermejia780]

@@tylerbrown9797 no one said anything about immoral or unethical. During grad school I worked an unpaid internship with JPL and then as a project engineer at a plastic extrusion plant. They allowed me to build my resume and gain valuable experience to be where I am today in my professional career.

[@seanm8030]

You don't have to take jobs with defense contractors.

[@Panama-Rad]

I love defense, I’m currently finishing my UAS degree and I plan to work for Textron Systems building and flying long range UAV’s

[@spudster561]

as an aeronautical engineering grad in the UK, i've basically had to accept that defence is the main way to get a job, since leaving the EU I have a lot less opportunities in civil aviation or green energy.

[@Wrking93]

Take the defense work no one will blame you for taking a job that puts food on your table and a roof over your head.

[@scottspencer6899]

It's going to be very difficult for students in America to reject jobs that are linked to the military industrial complex as the entire USA economy is based on defense and militerism..

[@AssyMcgeeKicksAce]

>leftist >engineering degree pick only one

[@carrieraupp757]

Alan Watts and many others have said to young people to work on what you love doing not ever because of money. The money will follow what you love.

[@scottlarue5304]

I tried to get a job in the environmental field cleaning up pollution and creating habitat and I ended up at a company that worked to get the big oil companies out of their liabilities. Meaningful impactful work isn’t profitable unfortunately.

[@deadwingdomain]

Our economy is uneconomical. Capitalism will destroy everything

[@hemeoncn]

A lot of the companies building military equipment in aerospace are also building commercial aircraft and space craft and many other things. You don't need to work for the military side of a company.

[@thomaasfist6494]

This has to be a hard no on building death machines. There are other jobs for engineers I’m sorry directly developing new and more efficient killing machines might be a bridge to far to cross. If you end up doing that there is no redemption Ohh and I tend to believe the salary, benefits, working conditions, amount of vacation days, etc are not something the typical Raytheon engineer is losing sleep over. So unionizing is great but I don’t think they are suddenly going to develop ways to save the planet instead of destroying it because of a union. I think those who don’t trick their brains into not thinking about what they are building or are just sociopaths have sleepless nights knowing their creation was used to blow up a school and killed dozens of children while the other thoughts of the life you have built with your wife and the amazing home that you share with your family and soon your three children will be in college which will be even more expensive than the private school they attend now so in order to maintain the life style your family has enjoyed Raytheon is the only job that can afford it. The truth is people who agree to do some twisted type of work, written directly in the job description. Well those people get paid quite a bit more than their counterparts in some engineering job that isn’t looked at as success when the outcomes are deadly. If death is a result so would the likely hood of you looking for work or even sitting in a cell. Think about right wing pundits on Fox News they are paid bank because what they do most people wouldn’t be able to stomach the level of evil it takes to go out there each day knowing the impact you are having on peoples lives. Isn’t capitalism so wonderful.

[@BarnacleBoy42069]

It's funny how we call them "defense contractors" when most of the time we're invading other countries

[@kiltedcripple]

If you called them "offense contractors" you'd be unpatriotic. Correct, but unpatriotic.

[@sevilnatas]

Boeing is a pretty massively unionized workplace. That doesn't mean that the union or union members are even thinking about trying to change Boeings business development decision processes. I wish they did, but I think they are still in a mind set where it's about keeping the money flowing in and being happy they have a job. I dream of a future where the workforce knows their power and can participate in deciding who their company does business with.

[@Zenjohnny]

There is always a choice. Since he's already passionate about this I doubt he will last in that industry. Hopefully he can find an engineering job at any other industry.

[@Pistolita221]

Sometimes that choice kinda looks like compliance or risking life and limb. "silver or lead".

[@HONEYBADGER222]

Aerospace Engineer who is anti military here. It's hard for sure but you can prioritize energy companies. I worked in Germany for 2 years but if you can't move, satellites or commercial plane companies are good. It is hard though and not everyone can do it, which is why I'm pivoting into CS

[@yishaqdavid2029]

Why the fuck would care what these 3 people think you should do with your engineering degree? Seriously? Are these people Gods to you? Dude choose your own fucking path don't let some rich woman who has never needed a dollar in her life and what looks like a backup guitar player choose your life for you. I know for a fact there are other engineering jobs in the US other than at weapons manufacturers and NASA. Christ, you could work at CN rail or the American equivalent and make good money. There are tons of start-ups that are looking for engineers. My buddy is an engineer and he had a list of companies he could work for. He was pretty much hired while still studying at Ryerson Polytech. (maybe that's just Canada but something tells me the USA has much more engineering jobs to fill than here in Canada) Don't let some women who grew up rich make monetary decisions for you. She has no idea what it's like to be hungry and I have a funny feeling the same can be said for the dude that looks like a session guitar player for the Foo Fighters.

[@ConnorLonergan]

Honestly, I would say it depends on what said the job is. If the engineering job is with the weapons departments, then no, do take it. But if it is to build some new efficient airplane that can be used in the civilian sector, then you're fine.

[@Greenlantern957]

You didn’t research job “lefty engineer” job positions before you invested thousands on a degree?….genius!!

[@rabidgoon]

i can't tell them what they should or shouldn't do, but I definitely have a negative opinion of anyone who would take a job with such companies.

[@yitzhaktolentino4214]

I’m gonna push you on this. Would you have a negative opinion of a McDonald’s worker?

[@dougsteel7414]

Yes, why not? If you are interested in niche engineering fields it might be your only chance for funded research. Learn, get out then do something different. And I don't understand the premise that if you're on the left you don't want high tech national defense

[@anomalytm05]

I don't think I particularly lean towards the left or the right, but... I'm just too fascinated with surveillance drones rn. That or search and rescue.

[@strezztechnoid]

Many of the high end STEM academic institutions; Stanford, MIT, CMU, Georgia Tech, etc. have ponds where the fish are placed and DoD contractors bring their fishing pole.

[@sirius1696]

I still have an email from University of Maryland telling me that the CIA will be on campus today. Come on down for a meet and greet and job networking (paraphrasing)

[@Admiralty86]

I made over $80k my first year out of school working in power generation.

[@rockinroller25]

Some of those fields also have unions too that are represented for other branches such as airlines. Boeing for example is represented by the machinists IAM.

[@humanresources8404]

lmao get over yourselves. What a privileged take, there will always be weapons manufacturers. Be grateful they're on your side.

[@AceofDlamonds]

My Eng Project Management professor was a manager at Raytheon. I think pretty much the only reason the stigma exists is because of recent dark memories of America's foreign policy. But it's unavoidable, at least in these past decades, because of that.

[@pazitor]

As a defense-oriented start-up with a vocation to end the global south's dependence on expensive Western tech, I can say the aversion of many to work in defense is certainly a handicap. Not all of us are billionaire extremist ideologues, and may actually wish to address some of the fundamentals of concern to those on the left.

[@christopherlevens8454]

If we only elected Bernie, maybe our money would in a different direction.

[@GSP-76]

I would say take the job... especially if your young so you get the experience under your belt. Once your well established in your career, go work where you would like to work.

[@villedocvalle]

Either you are a person of conscience or not. No middle ground, otherwise you’re just rationalizing the degree of compromise on you’re core values, which should never happen.

[@vgaportauthority9932]

If you never compromise on your core values in the world we live in right now, then you're likely living up in a tree in the forest doing everything you can not to harm the tree and the forest in the process, and that'd be your life. Every time you crack open a beer you're wasting resources. Every time you choose refined sugars over just chewing into a sugar cane you're wasting resources. Every trip in a car, every time you take the bus, all your vacations etc. etc. etc. It's all damaging the planet, and if your core values go against destroying the planet.. well... Why so wasteful as to use motorized vehicles ever? Never compromise, stay in your tree. Eat pine cones.

[@Vageta1999]

People living in their basements asserting mortal superiority on people who are living lives to support themselves and people around them is always funny to me.

[@angrykitten9441]

I got a full ride scholarship for engineering, and switched careers due to all the presentations being given from defense contractors in my first year

[@gurgleblaster2282]

Here is my two cents. The more accurate precise and reliably engineered these weapons are the less collateral damage is done. The ethics are these weapons are going to be designed and used with or without you. If you are capable of reducing collateral damage with your expertise you shouldn't feel bad doing it.

[@neilmuir3503]

doesn't work like that. if its accurate just blows up civilians better. the US isn't the only one who gets the toys too

[@gurgleblaster2282]

@@neilmuir3503 well despite what you think killing civilians is a pr problem they don't want to have. Compare WWII civilian casualties to now. The difference is pretty staggering. Smart bombs have had a huge impact in reducing harm to civilians compared to dumb bombs. The politics of war is a problem that is more important to address than whether or not one should work for a defense contractor.

[@crithon]

really? Even at 24 a young person in the tri state area meets an engineer who worked on a submarine? like if the question if "how do I affect change in a system that's military contract work?" but just looking glassy eye and go "uh unionize? I guess" I mean like, compare it with a friend who gets a job as a cop. I just don't buy these three knuckleheads haven't meet a young person who works at Lockheed Martin, the military, a contractor, ugh, this is why they are "the dirt bag left." In my personal experience, I had friends who worked as engineers in the military industry, did 2 years of it, quit, and went off to work at a church. Or I had a friend who was at the marines, quit, became a gym trainer as he went back to school to study as a doctor. And of course, I met a few people who worked at Lockheed Martin and they are dull as tap water because they lack a soul. Make mistakes and live life.

[@Boomersfdtheworld]

I'm an electrical engineer so I have more desirable options. My mechanical/aerospace engineering friends don't have as many options to work inspiring projects. You'd be surprised how many were happy about Space Force. Especially since they are flying the International Space Station into the ocean in 2030.

[@Bravo_L]

Blood on your hands if you do work there. No way around it. Electrical engineering kid here and just do mechanical engineering gigs and 100% would hold it against you if you do it.

[@rubbercable]

I would rather have a leftist behind the desk than a rightwinger.

[@parithrush7921]

The February 1975 issue of Los Angeles Magazine featured an article by Devra Hill Zucker about "Romantic Places" in Los Angeles in which she included The Bodhi Tree Bookstore: "Three aerospace engineers converted this Spanish-style Melrose Avenue home into a bookstore with a strong Eastern bent. The Bodhi Tree embraces all directions of spiritual awakening and is also a place to read among plants and sip a complimentary herb tea." I copied the above paragraph from Wikipedia. A few years ago I happened to do some house painting work for one of the above mentioned aerospace engineers. He told me he and his partners did not want to support the Viet Nam War. My understanding is that they basically quit their engineering jobs and opened a spiritually oriented bookstore. The store opened in 1970 and did quite well for over three decades.

[@randor7969]

Hopefully you can get a job that better aligns with your ideals, but in any case once you're financially secure, it can actually be beneficial to get one of these jobs, take the money, and be deadweight until you're fired

[@Heleous281]

SOOOO TRUEEEE!...I am a Biomedical Engineer in Texas and this very much rings true...alotta opportunities in the wrong places

[@woolfwoolf]

Your principles have to start somewhere and your job is a big part of your life. I guess what can you live with?

[@hasanhuh]

Should a vegan take a job at a slaughterhouse?

[@DanielBeaver]

I worked for a big Aerospace company for a couple of years, before really thinking about what impact I was having on the world, instead of how cool the tech was. And what I was doing there was marginally decreasing the cost of turning Yemeni children into skeletons. It is a moral imperative that you not apply yourself to bettering the instruments of violence and oppression.

[@arhansen85]

If by Defence you mean De-fencing. Then yes. But otherwise nah

[@WorldGovernmentGeoInstitut]

No, it is not. halliburton, northrup gruman, boeing, honeywell, lockheed martin, raytheon, du pont; it doesn't matter. It is unethical to work for those companies just as it is unethical to work in the US military. The sooner people understand that the better.

[@petrushaasbroek8433]

Sure, there are a lot of jobs in defense. Simultaneously, if you dont want to work in defense, dont. There many other companies one can work for.

[@tjnucnuc]

Look you’re just one engineer in a long line of thousands of them working on the same project. You aren’t the inventor of the atomic bomb. You shouldn’t feel any kinda way about working for them. We all work for companies that in some way, big or small, go against our values.

[@sirius1696]

I like producing software that doesn't contribute to vaporizing some poor brown kid

[@chr1st0pher]

Anyone who gets mad at you as an individual for taking any kind of job to make a living is wasting their breath, placing blame on the individual is totally pointless. Do what you can from the inside and advocate for the change you want to see! The amount of truly moral jobs in the US is sadly so limited and most people just ignore the damage their employers are causing.

[@saywhat4082]

Welcome to the real world kid 😂😂😂

[@CannibalCommunist]

Why did this guy major in aerospace engineering (assuming that's what they majored in because any other type of engineer would have plenty of other well paying places to work) if they didn't want to build warplanes, missles, drones, or rich people's space ships? Like, maybe you should have become a mechanical engineer... or an electrical engineer... or a computer engineer... or a biomedical engineer, a biochemical engineer, a systems engineer, a software programmer, a doctor, a veterinarian, a chemist, a biologist, or a physicist. Seems like the caller kind of handcuffed themselves here. Although it doesn't really matter, since there's no ethical production under our current late-stage, capitalist fever dream anyway.

[@jonw7214]

I work for a defense contractor, but I make things for space. I look at defense contractors as sort of a jobs program right now, but I definitely don't think I'll stay here forever.

[@holski77]

im fresh off a three day ban on reddit for "threatening violence" by sarcastically suggesting you need to sign a blood oath against goat herders before you can apply to raytheon.

[@phenixnunlee372]

When I first left engineering school I would never have worked for a military contractor. Now, I am not so sure. I have worked at a smaller tech company for about 3 years +. At non-defense contractors you have to deal with china using slave labor, workers rights issues, content moderation and still government defense contracting. Also, defense contracting is a lot more professional so you will deal with a lot less tech bro BS aka Activision Blizzard does not happen Raytheon. Also, a lot defense work is communication satellites and infrastructure. Remember to GPS was developed in the defense world. However, we should have more non-weapons research opportunities for new engineers.

[@phenixnunlee372]

Also, I do not work in the defense industry. However, if you want to help with environmental causes become a PE and get into building permits. you can literally just process the renewable projects fasters. I feel like engineers get caught in this I have to save the world mentality. This mentality stops them from understanding that we are all one step in innovation. People legit asked Michael faraday what use is electricity. Early electrical engineering research did not seem to solve big problem the innovation that flowed from it did. The practical thing too was to make a better gas lamp not research electricity.

[@ajmarecki]

I’m an engineer and before graduation I decided I would never work on products intended to cause violence or destruction.

[@dillonnauta8601]

I'm in this situation and I feel the same way. I guess there's some hope that we will gradually focus more on renewables and use grassroots pressure to prioritize a job market that is atleast somewhat competitive with defense contracting.

[@Pistolita221]

Do you think looking for likeminded engineers and see what sorts of business/solutions you can come up with in your spare time maybe a solution?

[@dillonnauta8601]

@@Pistolita221 something like that! I'm still in school but I have a lot of faith in worker solidarity!

[@Pistolita221]

@@dillonnauta8601 I do, too. Mark Cuban is investing in a new structure of business, Jon Stewart had a great interview about it. He's wanting to invest in companies that use their employees to do their market research, instead of a boardroom (so workers are better compensated). I'm not doing the best job of explaining it, but it's a free podcast on appletv if it's peaked your interest .

[@joeburly]

No

[@bradleysquires2592]

Honestly think of it as this you join the military or something is an engineer even if you just do it to defend the people that are using equipment but other thing would be trying to get enough funds to build defensive purposes like armor or someone to help protect people but that's if you have no other choice I would rather take my time and build state of the art technology to help search and rescue if you can find some sort of technical job that fits your skill set

[@quintonmitchell2853]

I work for a contractor and identify as a Leftist but I see it as I do support American defense. I mean Cuba has a military right? Sure it's not perfect BUT what you do get is a better understanding of how the "complex" works since most Leftist are critiquing it from a third source perspective aka the Left often from my view doesn't know all the fine details of how the ecosystem works. I also know I don't plan on being in defense forever. I'm able to make more pragmatic opinions about the debate by having lived it.

[@t4ngo_kilo]

Probably should also not take jobs locating oil for oil corporations.

[@TazCStorm]

As an engineer.. all he really has to do is take a page out of the star wars playbook.. if you gotta create a weapon of mass destruction.. like a death star.. then make sure you build in a simple little flaw that would make it blow up if you drop a rock in a small airshaft or something.. lol..

[@QuestioningYourSanity]

These defense contractors are massive and work on tons of different projects. The military and their contractors do bombs and bombers but also massive green projects, as well general stuff inbetween. Find you exact moral line and apply that. Take what experience you need from them then move on to where you have more choices.

[@slashandbones13]

If you are just getting out of school and you don't have the work experience to have a lot of options, you still got to pay the bills.

[@henryburton6529]

My friend got a well played job which was a construction company but that company was a subsidiary of Halliburton. To offset damage done he doubled his yearly charitable donations.

[@JohnDoe-jq4re]

Honestly no, if someone thinks something is wrong they shouldn’t participate in it. Should a vegetarian work in the meat industry? Maybe if there were literally no other options but like that would be really stupid

[@bcleste]

So spacex is better than any other govt contractor?