Should There Be More Urban Gondolas?

[@TransitTangents]

Are you a new member of the #GONDOLAGANG?? Let us know! Thanks for watching 🙌

[@Caio-sw7hh]

in rio they built a gondola system for a favela, unhappily its been not available since the olumpics, it connected right to the subway station, irs such a waste its not being used :(

[@mattreedah]

I immediately thought about the possibility of Las Vegas.

[@HandiTransport]

Look at the gondola in Toulouse, France. These are fully accessible with no difficulties for wheelchairs and also encourage bikes too. It's a shame that it doesn't link the second metro line (yet) but great access across difficult terrain with the equivalent of half a bus every 2 to 3 minutes it fills the niche. The biggest advantages are cost of construction and use along with the speed of construction which was for urban transit really fast.

[@elizabethdavis1696]

I love for their to be gondolas to take people to and from train station to towns nearby

[@KyrilPG]

Parisian here 🖐 Glad that you mentioned Paris, as the project is advancing well and construction is ongoing. It should be entering the testing phase in less than a year and open around summer 2025. (The time-frame for the opening is between Spring and Fall 2025). To be precise : utility revocations started September 26th 2022, infrastructure works started in April 2023, with the testing phase scheduled for the first semester of 2025, possibly even the first trimester. As of mid May 2024, 23 pylons were already erected and only 7 left to build. The core structures of most stations are already visible, some even with their launching gantries, structures, and covers. Flywheels have been delivered if I recall correctly. Also in mid May, they were starting preparatory works for the primary cables' installation. The cabins were presented a few months ago to the public, with one of them on location that could be visited. As for accessibility, cabins will be perfectly level with the platforms, with gaps comparable to an elevator. Most stations will be at ground level, or equipped with elevators. The cabins themselves can briefly stop for easier boarding of strollers and wheelchairs. The system was designed to be 100% accessible in full autonomy. Frequency will be 20 to 30 seconds between cabins, each way, in all stations. There will be 105 cabins, each with 10 seats, cctv, a passenger information screen, and an intercom. There's avaliable room for 25 additional cabins if need arises. The seats are modular and can be folded up to make more room for wheelchairs, there's also a footboard to better fill station gaps and a starry sky ceiling lighting. Pylons are designed to be elegant and less industrial looking than in mountains, with a stylised leafy shape at the top. Thei line is located in the Southeastern quadrant of the inner-mid ring of suburbs, extending South from the Southeastern end of metro line M8. It has 5 stations over 4.5km (14800ft) for a full end to end ride of 18 minutes. Station spacing ramges from 500m to 1800m (1650ft to 5905ft). It will serve slightly isolated neighborhoods separated from M8's terminus neighborhood by a high-speed line, a rail yard and a set of high voltage lines all creating a wedge in the urban fabric. This gondola system will improve travel times by shaving up to 28 minutes compared to certain circuitous bus journeys in the area. It will be named Cable C1, inaugurating the "cable" category in the Paris transit system's layer cake, as several other projects of the kind have been proposed and are waiting for this first line to show its strengths and weaknesses. About 15 of these have been imagined, roughly half of them have true mid term potential and 3 or 4 are really looked at and could get approved soon after this one proves its worth. Of course, this gondola line will be integrated into the fare system, just like any other common bus, busway BRT, tramway, express tramway, metro, express metro, regional express heavy metro... This system will be another tool in the Paris transit system's layer cake, and another new infrastructure amid this current transit-a-palooza era in Paris. About 35 kilometers of new rail based lines open this year alone (70+ km of tracks), and plenty more the coming years. Frankly, it is a transit fan Christmas list... Don't hesitate if you need more information. P.S. I don't know if it's on purpose or not but Urban Mobility Explained also released a video about urban transit gondolas and cable cars a few hours ago. Great minds....

[@TransitTangents]

Thank you for the comment! Very excited to hear from someone who lives in Paris to get the details! That is funny, I have not seen their video! It happens more than you'd think actually. Our last video is also fairly relevant to a few other transit/urbanism folks that came out within a few days of each other as well 😅 Keep us updated on the Gondola Project! -Louis

[@KyrilPG]

@@TransitTangents Same if you need footage of the various developments underway in Paris, from Cable C1 to the first bits of the Grand Paris Express : don't hesitate to ask. There are 2 major metro extensions that are the first parts and "adjacent parts" of the GPE that are opening later this month. I'm already building a footage and image pool for quality KZbin channels about transit and urbanism to pick from in order to illustrate their videos. From what I've heard, there may also be a potential 3S gondola system being looked at for one of the other imagined lines, but they still are at a very early stage of pre proposal. It would be a bit like the Toulouse's 3S called "Téléo" that is featured in Urban Mobility Explained's today video about the same subject. I've also heard about a potential funitel but didn't get enough details so that remains very fuzzy. (By the way, the UMX video very well complements yours as they both cover the subject from different angles. UMX comes from a kind of agency of the EU that is a sort of innovation & thinking lab, and advocacy group for improved urban mobillity, it's therefore more institutional). Great video, Kyril

[@otsoko66]

For a successful US example, check out NYC's Roosevelt Island tramway -- it's been the main public transportation between Manhattan and Roosevelt Island since 1976.

[@phriendlyphotog]

Incredible for tourism areas in cities that struggle with both transit access and tourists accessing specific areas bc of lack of transit. Baltimore City could put one of these from Camden Yards where the Orioles play to the Inner Harbor to Fells Point to Canton and across the harbor to Federal Hill for a fraction of the price of even a circulator bus. Philly could put one of these at the Sports Complex, run it up Delaware Avenue, and hit all the touristy spots in Old City, while also providing crucial access for others. Start at touristy spots, see how they do, then expand. And, like you guys said, it's even mobile if you really need it to be. I love the gondola.

[@Gfynbcyiokbg8710]

No. Other way around. A bus would be a fraction of the cost of that

[@Jorge-lh6px]

Dominican Republic has built two Gondola systems in its major cities and they connect to the Monorail in Santiago and the Metro in Santo Domingo. The gondolas have been hugely successful, especially in the low-lying terrain of Santo Domingo. If a US city wants to replicate the success of the Gondola system, it should look to Santo Domingo rather than Medellin or La Paz.

[@ianweniger6620]

Metro Vancouver resident here... We have a uni (SFU) on top of a mountain and the gondola connection to SkyTrain is one step before construction!

[@TheRandCrews]

it’s ridiculous i see people being against the project somehow and still want to keep sending buses on the slopes or get the Skytrain up there somehow

[@ianweniger6620]

@@TheRandCrews yup, they're tryna flex but it seems like weak tea

[@asdasdjsjsjs4213]

Santiago de Chile is building a gondola system taking you from the metro to another neighborhood across the hill

[@freetime803]

There was once an idea that didn't really seem to get very far past the conceptual stage to create a gondola system between downtown Kansas City, Missouri and Downtown Kansas City, Kansas with a stop in the West Bottoms, on the Missouri side.. I believe the pandemic slowed plans but I could see a plan like that coming alive again one day since there used to be a cable car down into the West Bottoms..

[@TransitTangents]

We actually have some potential connections to visit for some KC content, and if we do we will certainly be sure to look into this! Thanks for watching.

[@Hendrik-jan-de-tuinman]

if the argument is that Gondolas are better than busses, it depends on the length of the bus and simply how often they're running. It seems very cherry picked arguments to show how niece cases are bigger than they're

[@biteursknbiteurskn]

I STILL LOVE GONDOLAS. I WANT A 3S GONDOLA FROM ISLE OF WIGHT TO MAINLAND

[@WilConquer]

I love their look but they can only be used in specific instances as they dont move many people.

[@RB-os5dx]

Are there airconditioned gondolas?

[@mrxman581]

The proposed Gondola for Dodgers stadium is nowhere near dead. More people are supporting it because getting to and from the stadium only gets worse over time. There is also the long-established gondola system in Palm Springs that takes you up San Jacinto mountain. BTW, the one in Palm Springs can carry up to 80 people per gondola. Making it one of the largest in the world.

[@KyrilPG]

That's a more a cable car or aerial ropeway than a gondola. And a cabin capacity of 80 for a cable car system actually makes it a low to mid capacity one, quite far from the largest in the world. These systems often have cabins carrying more than 100 passengers, and can go to 200 passengers, like with double-decker cabins (the Vanoise Express for example). There's exactly the same one, a Doppelmayr TPH80 with rotating cabins, on the Italian side of the Mont Blanc, it's called Skyway. Plus a very similar one with slightly less capacity (64) in Cape Town to ascend the Table Mountain. There are possibly others using the same type of cabins, I don't know them all. Rotational cabins have a maximum capacity of 80 passengers if I recall correctly, so they are the largest of the rotating type. But most cable cars aren't rotating and often carry more passengers. As for the stadium I'm a bit perplex : gondolas and cable car systems work best when there's a steady flow of passengers and are really not indicated when there are large numbers of passengers arriving at once. A stadium being the exact type of location where there are massive numbers of people arriving at the same time, I'm really not sure that this is the right solution. A stadium that's being emptied makes several thousands of people appear in a very short period of time, which is the worst use case in terms of passenger flow for a cable system. Where I live, stations near the stadium see a noria of trains carrying 1000 to 3600 passengers departing every minute to carry the stadium goers away. And even with such high capacity, it takes some time to disperse the public.

[@jeffreywenger281]

You should also discuss some of the grittier issues with gondolas. Its easy for a ski resort to shut the system down for maintenance. Doing maintenance while in operation isn't so easy or cheap. Cabins have to be constantly removed and replaced from the line, so detachable gondolas is a minimal requirement. At a ski resort, when someone has difficultly getting on, they shut the line down for 20 seconds or so. With a bus system only that bus is delayed, the entire line does not need to be halted every time anyone anywhere on the system has a trip and fall or holds the doors for whatever reason, and this becomes more and more likely the more stations you add to the line. Also, skiiers are the more agile part of the population and have signed a liability waiver. Servicing the general public is very different. Gondolas are also slow, but have little wait time if there isn't a line to get on. That means it could theoretically serve short distances well, but a 10 mile ride on a gondola might not be very competitive. 11 miles is the average commute. Not sure what the maintenance cost per run time is for gondola systems, but the known data on that will be lower due to maintenance done with the system down. You can well double that cost doing maintenance while running the system. So where there is a lot of terrain, I can see the advantages, but most dense urban areas are rather flat. Also, the big issue in transit is servicing peak periods while the rest of the day you have poorly utilized capacity. Gondola systems offer one constant capacity which cannot be ramped up during peak periods, or ramped down, you can just run the system slower, but this isn't a great match for most travel corridors. Just some food for thought to temper your enthusiasm. Its not because transportation engineers are all stupid that we don't have these systems deployed everywhere.

[@KyrilPG]

A lot of misconceptions here... I'll start by the end : yes, a gondola line's capacity can be ramped up or down while keeping the same speed. They just run more or fewer cabins, plus it's virtually the same cost whether they circulate all cabins or only half. Some do light maintenance and cleaning of cabins during the off-peak hours of the day when cabins can be easily removed from the line without affecting passengers. Cabins are then reinserted on the line for the peak hours. It's a very simple process that is automated on modern gondolas. I don't recall ever seeing a non-detachable gondola, except for "pulsed gondolas", of course, but these are more rare and used for specific cases only. All gondolas used as transit lines are of the detachable type. The one they're building in Paris stops a cabin for easier boarding of mobility impaired passengers without stopping nor even slowing the rest of the line and cabins. Cabins can be removed from the line or inserted on the line as fast as needed. The recent urban transit 3S gondola line that runs in Toulouse, France, has large cabins that briefly stop in all stations but the line does not stop nor slow. It works flawlessly and cabins have large doors that allow about 35 passengers to board or deboard quickly, including wheelchairs, strollers, etc. It runs at 27km/h, with an average of about 20km/h including station stops. This line serves 2 different hospitals, so many passengers surely are not fit like skiers and yet, there are no such problems. The line in Paris will have 5 stations, and like in La Paz, Medellin, or other multi segment gondolas, each segment of the line can be a separate cable loop. So a problem on a segment does not require the whole line to be halted. So more stations do not increase the likelihood of a problem. Heavy maintenance is done at night, like on subways, and light maintenance can be done while operating during the day, simply by decycling a cabin that needs to be worked on. Some lines have equal primary and secondary motors, allowing maintenance to be done on one while the other runs the segment as usual. Urban transit gondolas usually have even more redundancy systems than in ski resorts, with a 2nd, 3rd and sometimes a 4th way to bring the cabins back to a station. Either electric, diesel, diesel electric, battery, or even a winch that can be used with external motors like a vehicle, etc. The cabins have level boarding, often with a gap equivalent or smaller than on elevators, and some have air conditioning. The one being built in Paris has a starry sky interior lighting, plus information screens, cctv, and intercoms in cabins. The line will have 105 10-seat cabins on opening, with garage space reserved for 25 additional ones if need arises. They can also build a garage extension if they need more than 130 cabins. There are also other possible lines for Paris, with either the same type or a 3S or a funitel. Some can exceed 6000 passengers per hour per side per segment... or run at speeds comparable to trams and subways. While costing a less to operate than buses, thanks to the reduced number of employees required. Simply because a gondola line doesn't need more attendants to operate at maximum capacity and both infrastructure and cabins have a lifespan that encompasses several bus generations. Many people tend to overestimate the constraints or simply just ignore the features and capabilities of modern gondolas. No one is advocating to replace subways with gondolas, but the cases where gondolas would be a good or the better choice are more common than many imagine. In the case of Paris, the new gondola line will extend metro line 8 from one of its terminus to a few rather isolated neighborhoods and reduce travel times by up to 28 minutes compared to the existing bus lines. That's not even counting the wait time for the bus. This line will help reduce car use in the area by avoiding the creation of a new more direct road that would have increased the number of drivers. The people living in these neighborhoods will have great transit frequency 18 to 20 hours a day, even on Sundays. The entire line will be traveled in 18 minutes and it could even be reduced if needed and well run. If a transit giant like Paris is building one and even inaugurating a new category (as they've named it Cable C1, expecting other lines), it's because they think it's well suited and reliable enough for a number of urban use cases and for the 12,000 daily passengers expected on the line.

[@AL5520]

I'm not against the use of gondolas but it should be a specific and logical reason, and lack of willingness to invest in public transport is not one of them. Austin is a wealthy city in what is suppose to be the richest country in the world so it should build a proper system. Medellin ans La Paz are no wealthy with a terrain that justify the use of gondolas. As for the pros, an elevated system does the same as gondolas, more expensive but much faster, efficient and can carry far more passengers. As for buses, they can definitely carry more people that what you've mentioned and not as a BRT. An articulated bus and high, a painted bus lane and high frequency can carry more than a gondola system. Buses can also change route, if necessary, and if one fails it's easy to get another one and the line still provides service. A problem with the gondolas means the whole line is out (not to mention being stuck high up with no way to get out). As for other places, in Haifa (Israel), which is quite unique when it comes for transit, they recently opened a gondola line connecting the mulimodal station that serves long distance and local buses, e rail lines, some of the BRT lines, the gondolas service and under construction a light rail/train connecting Haifa to Nazareth. The gondolas go up mount Carmel and serve the Israel Technion Institute and Haifa University )each one has a station). There are two other station that will become active in the future. The city also has the Carmelit, a 1.1 mile underground funicular connecting the lower city to the upper one with 6 stations. It was open in 1959 and until last year was the only underground transit system in Israel. There is also another cable car (not gondolas) that was built for touristic reasons but with low use it serves as transport for students in a college located near the top station. The lower station is not far from one of the 5 train stations of the city. They ride for free (paid for by the college)

[@KyrilPG]

All urban gondola systems and most mountain ones have redundant motorisation with a different energy source so that cabins don't get stranded on the line. Plus, most multi-station lines, if built properly, can be segmented, so that if one segment fails it can be interrupted while continuing to operate others as loops or bundled loops. In practice, urban gondolas are easier to evacuate than metro lines because in almost all cases you can bring the cabins back to stations. The idea of being blocked into a cabin high on the line for hours is therefore mostly a fantasy; it is extremely rare on urban gondolas and cable cars. Much more rare than having to evacuate a metro train inside a tunnel between stations for example. There's at the very least one additional diesel motor to repatriate the cabins into stations in case of power failure or other issues. Some have 2 or even 3 rescue motors per segment (usually in the harshest locations). Cable systems can carry substantially more passengers than busses, even BRT's, for a fraction of the cost. Some like funitels can have cabins carrying 30+ passengers leaving every few seconds each way, from each station. All done with a reduced crew of attendants and without much higher costs for allowing high frequency all day long compared to low frequency. Simply because attendants are in stations and not in the vehicles. There are a lot of misconceptions and preconceived ideas about gondolas and cable cars, as if they were limited to small cabins running slowly. Some can be equivalent to a midsized tramway in capacity and running faster than the average speed of tramways and busses.

[@AL5520]

@@KyrilPG those are not misconceptions but facts. There are, obviously, safety and backup systems but getting stuck in cabin is definitely a possibility and discarding it as fantasy cannot be taken seriously. That does not mean it's unsafe but it is a con compared to other transport means. Undergtound, trenched and elevated rail systems have easy and clear evacuation systems, unles it's an old system. But that also applies to the subject at hand. As for the number of passengers, most systems do not carry 30+ passengers just like not all bus lines uses a 300+ passengers bi-articulated buses. The whole comparation is problematic as buses and urban ropeways are differen, buses are easy to set up, require very little infrastructure for basic operations is very flexible (with both unexpected changes and adaptive frequency) and have more stops that are closer to eachother. An urban ropeway is more similar to a metro, as it's grade seperated, has less stations that are further apart and the stations are more complicted than those of a bus or a tram/light rail. There is no doubt tht it's cheaper to build butbit is slower and can carry far less pssengers so if there is no specific terrain reauirment and the city can afford it (not wanting to invest i not the same as not being able to) than it should not be used in my opinion. It can be used as a sabsitute for other means if money is a problem, like Medellín or La Pas did (Medellín also for the terrain) but if they could thy wiuld have built a metro and light rail (Medellín did build two urban lines and a tram line but other solutions to the mountaines section would have been too expensive for them) and it's great that it works but there are better solutions for those who can afford them, and in many parts of the world they are not as expensive as in the US.

[@KyrilPG]

@@AL5520 It's not facts, because it's many times less likely than being stuck in a metro tunnel. It's so *extremely* rare and unlikely to be stranded in a cabin on the line of a modern urban gondola, because it would need every single redundancy to fail. On top of the built-in redundancy, there's even often a way to connect an external winch to repatriate cabins in stations if everything else fails. It's like a 3rd or 4th level of redundancy. So much that this type of systems now go over wide bodies of water or uninhabited terrain like wild forests. The days of helicopter evacs like some happened in ski resorts are mostly history, thanks to the urban specific machinery and redundancy. It's less a problem than being stranded in a broken down metro train in a tunnel for example. I adore metros, I'm an absolute fan of metros, so that's not a critic of metros, but they are more complicated to evacuate and more likely to fail between stations than modern urban gondolas and cable cars. Even on modern subways, if a train is stranded in a tunnel, it has no secondary power source and must be evacuated in the tunnel (or on the viaduct), which is a nightmare for people with reduced mobility, people with luggage, kids, strollers, etc. I've experienced modern subway's evacuation from a stranded train myself, and it's nowhere near as simple as in a gondola that just comes back to the station but more slowly on diesel or hydraulic power. A stranded train does not magically return to a station on a 2nd or 3rd power source by itself. Many people in the train had to wait for first responders to arrive and help them evacuate the train or even be carried by them to the station. A stranded subway evacuation is only "simple" when you're fit and with no luggage or kids. And that was an "easy" evacuation in a modern subway with a catwalk, in a wide and lit tunnel... The probability of having to evacuate a gondola with ladders or an helicopter is now many times lower than having to evacuate a subway train in a tunnel. That's what I mean by "mostly a fantasy", or irrational fear, just like a plane crash is incomparably less likely to happen than a car crash, and yet, people still fear air travel much more than car travel. When something is so rare that it's virtually inexistent, thanks to redundancy and rescue systems, then it can't be considered as one of the main "cons". When a modern urban gondola breaks down, the cables are winched at 1 or 2 kilometers per hour by diesel motors, or hydraulic motors, or an external winch if all others have failed too. I forgot to mention that some even have a rescue generator on top of everything else. It may take 15 minutes to get back to a station instead of 1 or 2, but you exit the cabin at a platform, like you would have without the breakdown. The first gondola system that's currently being built in Paris in the Southeastern quadrant of the inner-mid ring of suburbs, is cheaper than other solutions. Car advocates wanted a BRT busway with a side order of car lanes for more direct access over a bridge. (They wanted the car lanes, the BRT was just a pretext). This would have cost far more than the gondola. This one, called Cable C1, will have a capacity set at about 1500 passengers per direction per segment, with 105 cabins, each with 10 seats. They can add 25 extra cabins later if needed without any additional building required. The cost per kilometer and the operational cost are lower than the new bus solution, and with better service from 5AM to 1AM.. The lifespan of the gondola also encompasses several generations of busses, which should not be ignored when evaluating the costs. It can work with 6 or 7 employees : 1 in each of the 5 stations, 1 or 2 in the "tower" (the control center), with less time limitations and less off time than bus drivers. This, whether it's off-peak or super peak, service can be maxed out all day long for virtually the same cost. Another cable system is being looked at in Paris, with larger cabins and high frequency that could well exceed 6000 passengers per direction per hour, as a connector line. No one is advocating for gondolas everywhere replacing tramways and subways. But it's a very good system for a substantial number of use cases. Far more than many imagine, and also with far less limitations and cons than many imagine. Especially systems with multiple cables, like 3S or funitels... Another pro is that the public loves them, thanks to the constant flow (like escalators versus elevators), the views, the smoothness of the ride and silence. Using these types of systems only when every other option is impossible would be a mistake. It has to be used when it's the most indicated type for the location and service goals. And there are plenty of cases where it is the better choice.

[@Nouvellecosse]

The only concern I have is the line "should be for a specific and logical reason, and lack of willingness to invest in public transport is not one of them". Well, investing in gondolas to provide public transport _is_ a willingness to invest in public transport. All public transit modes should be chosen for a specific, logical reason, and preferably that reason is that a mode is the most efficient, cost effective, least disruptive way to carry the desired passenger volumes. I assume what you meant is that governments shouldn't choose gondolas over other modes that could better perform a specific task just because they're cheaper which is fair. It's just important to recognize that gondolas don't need to be thought of as a last resort that you never do unless there's no reasonable alternative. There's plenty of use cases where they make as much or more sense than alternative modes as the video describes so I just want to be sure we're not singling them out for greater scrutiny or justification than other modes.

[@Gfynbcyiokbg8710]

6:05 That's not as big of a pro as you claim, because that whole anecdote is irrelevant. If you're considering building a gondola the other options would also be very frequent, not every 15 minutes. 11:00 Also hilarious that you show the Dangleway on a video about the pros of gondolas. It is a useless system who's only purpose is to be a tourist trap. 13:45 Another flawed argument. You can't use the figures from the entire US for buses and light rail and compare them to figures from a few cities. There are many, many, many more buses and light rail that carry many, many times more people so of course they're going to have much higher injury and death figures. 14:45 And another essentially irrelevant argument. Unless you are building gondolas for a one time event, there will rarely ever be a case where demand will suddenly evaporate from a certain area to make it worth 'moving' a gondola. Plus few cities have several different routes that could suit a gondola, so unless you're in Medellín or La Paz there wouldn't be a place for the gondola to be moved to. 16:15 You keep on bringing up this thing about buses and trains only being every 10 or 15 minutes. That just wouldn't be true for a line that is trying to carry the same amount of people as a gondola. You'd have to run an articulated bus every 2 minutes (maybe even more) for it compete with the higher ends of a gondola's capacity. You also constantly compare the most ideal situation or perfect gondola system to fine or bad buses and light rail lines. E.g. when you were looking at the travel times for a gondola in Austin, instead of looking at the best possible BRT that route could have vs the best possible gondola, you just compared the current, mediocre, barely BRT to the best possible gondola.

[@vincentsoubbotin7830]

This so much these people have no idea what they're talking about.

[@biteursknbiteurskn]

I FUCKING LOVE GONDOLAS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@TransitTangents]

#GondolaGang