Should we be folding Big Hands at Low Stakes Poker?

[@monahzaini5362]

I didn't realize I never revealed villain's hand, which was AQcc for anyone asking in the comments. Thanks for taking the call, Bart!

[@jacobharris4838]

sick fold dude, good luck on the felt

[@nathankay]

ah HA...!

[@compteofficiel4112]

i think that fold and the logic leading to it was fine. and between you and me, i feel Bart puts too much emphasis on "these levels" and doesn't seem to get that there are good players at 1/2 or 1/3... some casinos don't even offer higher levels, and not everyone can afford to buy in for 4 or 5 figures, and you have people coming from the internet where even games in the 10c-25c range can be very, very tough. i've seen plenty of skilled players at "these levels"... i assume you would call if there was no one behind you, right?

[@mveronie]

Bart is a really smart player, but I think he's wrong here. Unless villain is a creative/tricky player, this is a fold, even at low stakes. You need to be good a little more than 25% here for a call, and I don't think you are against a straight-forward player. With the preflop raise, villain doesn't have a straight. Nor would it be likely they would bet out the straight into two other callers all along the way when the flush hits. For the same preflop action reason, they don't have a worse flush than you. It's not even the best spot for a tricky player to bluff a lone Ac in their hand. I am putting villain on AKc or AQc before I saw your comment here. I think you made a good fold and your logic and reads were right on.

[@compteofficiel4112]

@Jay P I've watched every single CLP episode on KZbin and a lot more of his stuff as well...and he does often (too often) base his strategy on "these levels"...in my opinion. of course he has played more than any of us, duh. but that doesn't mean he's god, and it doesn't mean you won't run into competent players at "these levels" becauswe you will. i wouldn't watch Bart if I didn't think it was worth my time or that he wasn't giving out solid info,...this is just one part of it I don't think is "all that"... you can find shit players at any level by the way, and you can find good players at any level too. you need to base your poker on fundamentals, not lumping every player at 1/2 into the same mental category as "fish" and every player at 5/10 "pro" ...because that just isn't true, and will lead to some bad, bad decisions. in my experience, it would be better to lump people in categories based on how muich they can afford to lose. most decisions at lower levels by poorer people are scared decisions...that's what you can really texploit...scared money. but you cannot assume "poor=bad" and "rich=good" ...just ask Doyle Brunson...rich players are often fishy as fuck.

[@connman8d617]

FWIW, I think this was an extremely well played hand by a great low stakes player. Her ranging of the villain, conscious observation of his body language and level of trust in herself to act on those reads and lay down a premium value hand was world class.

[@DanielSong39]

She must have had a live read, otherwise it's an easy call

[@connman8d617]

@Jay P oh get off it dude. 97s is a decent hand as long as you're not going to be prone to overvaluing single pairs. You're very unlikely to be dominated except by overpairs and the hand has a lot of potential. I would MUCH rather call a 3-bet with 97s than with something like AJo.

[@RealAnthonyJones]

@@connman8d617 you would call with a 53s hand over having AJo as well?

[@connman8d617]

@@RealAnthonyJones nope

[@connman8d617]

@Jay P Hilarious how you're the guy who just won't shut about how laying down a flush when you think somebody else might have a better flush is a bad move, yet you still call other people fish. Let me know when you claw your way out of the Dunning-Kruger valley, kid.

[@fundiver198]

Basically it sounds like, Monah folded here, because she narrowed BTNs range down to just two combos: AcKc and AcQc. But while Monah was right this time, this is a dangerous approach in general. Can we really be sure, he never 3-bets AJ or maybe T9s? And can we really be sure, he never check back on the flop with an overpair? The actions of the straddle player in this hand show, that sometimes people do things, we are not expecting. So typically we can not make that soul read and say "oh you must have exactly that". That being said the 3-way nature of the pot does make this fold less bad, because we need to be good against both of them, and the straddle player could certainly also have a flush and play it like this.

[@sensi2713]

With it being multiway specifically checked around on the flop basically saying the button basically NEVER has overpair there then calls the turn, given her description of guy those couple of high club hands seem like a fantastic read but sort of the only hands from a somewhat tight player that make any sense. I dunno but great fold, I'm paying that off almost every time.

[@JiveDadson]

I recall the high stakes cash-game play that Texas Dolly made vs. Jamie Gold. Doyle folded a 10 high flush because Gold was jumping out of his chair. Gold had a lower flush.

[@LorenFinkelstein]

One thing you didn’t mention was the relevance of stack sizes. My thinking is, to call a bet with low suited connectors or gappers, I need to potentially win 20 times what it’s going to cost me. The hero only had 500, and it was going to cost 34 to make the call. Against 1 players, I would never make this call because I can’t win the 680m to make it profitable in the long term. I guess if you know the other players are coming in too, then the implied odds are there, but otherwise, this is a fold for me.

[@gregjohnson6793]

Seems to me low stakes is often about exploitative folds / calls. Bart often says that the river is way under-bluffed in low stakes, but, as shown here, hands are over valued. I may low bet my straight, hoping to be looked up by a J - but also as a blocker so a low flush would just call. Here, with the player behind obviously still interested, he has to have a higher flush - as this stake. He three bet, he's not played it like an over pair, but big suited connectors - and he's at full attention 2 minutes into a tank. IMHO - its a fold. Heads up - its a call - but only b/c of the read on the button. What else does the button have, but a higher flush?

[@connman8d617]

This is exactly right. Great read by hero.

[@Gos1234567]

@Jay P She did bet out on the turn

[@nos0317]

Thanks for the analysis, Bart. Great fold and read on opponent, Monah. Would be difficult to make this lay down at these stakes online without a read.

[@ernestevans6672]

Mona you already know you were right to fold. Be glad that you are one step ahead of so many players in live games. This does mean however that you will be made fun of. I hope it was not because you told anyone you play against, never let anyone know you can fold well.

[@monahzaini5362]

This is a very friendly game where everyone knows each other, including my boyfriend and his friends so villain unfortunately knows what I folded. The 1/3 player pool isn't very big at Parx, besides now everyone on the internet knows. Oh well :/

[@jambasket211]

I think you can let the vast majority of players know that you folded a flush here because few will able to take advantage of the information.

[@nadergoubran9322]

just preflop comment: looks like shes getting 170-30 or so with good relative position. pretty obvious call, and not even close!

[@vlada_janjanin]

especially since live games are often so easy to navigate post flop.

[@FefeLeVrai]

The real question is, why is she playing this hand in the first place if she wants to herofold it when she hits her flush? Just fold pre if you want to be a nit...

[@connman8d617]

Naw dude. She made a sick read that the player behind her was chomping at the bit to get the money in and she made a gangster exploitative fold.

[@jambasket211]

You don’t just go broke because you made a hand. You pay attention to the new information coming in to make a better decision. If this new information leads to a fold, that’s fine. She’s not a nit for folding.

[@connman8d617]

@Jay P you go ahead and fold pre because you don't have a fold button post flop when you have a hand. The rest of us will go ahead and fold when we know we're beat.

[@jambasket211]

Jay P A massive leak is ignoring the information presented to you by your opponent’s actions. You must constantly reevaluate the relative strength of your hand as new information comes in. Otherwise, you aren’t playing the game. Say you enter the pot with 97s and are fortunate enough to have your shapes match the board, giving you a flush. If your opponents start piling money into the pot, at what point do you fold? At some point you can no longer rely on the caveman-like approach of “I wanted flush, I got flush, I no fold now because I wanted flush.” Sure, you wanted to make a flush at the start. But what you didn’t want was to see a bunch of action. Of course, that’s not what happened here, but my point is that when you face a certain amount of action, you’ll find a fold with this weak flush. The hero didn’t face a bunch of raises and reraises in this hand, but the actions in poker will rarely be obvious; they’ll be more subtle. The hero processed the new information presented to her, considered the likely ranges she faced, and gauged the relative strength of her hand. Her ability to do this will give her a massive edge over her competition. She is making decisions based on reason, not on shapes.

[@connman8d617]

@Jay P we all get your point. It's just that your point is retarded so nobody agrees with you.

[@why-even-try-brotendo]

My theory is to play the same way at any level and only change my style with how deep the stacks are.

[@johnscott8405]

World Class Fold

[@alexh8613]

So the straddle folded a straight for a $60 all-in for a pot of $1,300??? Yeah, there is no way that happened.

[@pot_kivach160]

No say.

[@Getsitdone]

It would be great to see the table. Love your content!

[@stt5v2002]

It’s not possible to have the nut flush if anyone else has the royal. In fact, unless the board is paired when someone has a royal then it is hard for anything to call. Basically everything else that is possible is just a bluff catcher.

[@greatwhite3676]

In a 1-3 game i dont think this is a hero fold. She made a nice fold which most disciplined low stakes players know is the right play 90% of the time. A king high flush would be the hero fold but in low stakes games big bets equal a narrow super nut heavy range of hands. For every 100 nut flushes there may be 2 bluffs in this spot.

[@teddyj5187]

Well it appears he has the nut flush but he bet like he was bluffing. With nut flush im value betting.

[@ortodary2825]

backdoor over backdoor? I call and place it under "okey, cooler" if I lose.

[@sensi2713]

Great fold, still can't believe the straddle folded even 5-7 for 30 bucks I mean good lord

[@chadjohnson6718]

Yeah wtf that just sounded weird to me.

[@brianlee1417]

Hey Bart--So if the average raise size is $10-15 preflop with a lot of callers in a $5 rake 1/2nl game does that make the game beatable? thanks.

[@Niko-et4yz]

If there is good action and deep stacks, rake becomes less relevant. If everyone were nits with shallow stacks... May want to choose a different game imo.

[@speakinfaxonly21]

She called this in cuz she wants to be praised for picking up on a live tell that button was going to jam. this hand is never a cold. Ya, you were right this time but look at what straddle bet with. This is live poker. Good fold if we're being results oriented. But we aren't.

[@jekyll_eth]

can somebody please explain why direct suited connectors seem to hold so much more value than suited gappers??? you need to hit three cards either way, please forgive my ignorance but i just dont get it...thank you in advance

[@brettgoodwillie8924]

Because with a suited gapper you need the gap card. Connectors you can catch either end

[@compteofficiel4112]

@Steven Stevens exponential? are you sure about that?

[@FefeLeVrai]

Say you have 67s. You can make a straight with 345, 458, 589, and 89T. That's 4 combos. Say you have 68s. You can make a straight with 457, 579 and 79T. That's 3 combos. Say you have 69s. You can make a straight with 578 and 78T. You're down to 2 combos. That's why people see connectors as more valuable than gappers, they're more likely to make straights. However that's just part of the story, since straights with connectors are more likely to be dominated by higher straights (eg 67s on a 89T board sucks, there's always that guy with QJ, gappers don't have that problem), and it's also more obvious that you have it. The best connector in the game is still JTs, since it has all the space to make straights on both ends and always makes the nut straight.

[@compteofficiel4112]

@@FefeLeVrai exactly..that is not what a mathematician would term "exponential"...it is linear

[@toddzickel2548]

Why is hero even in the hand w 79cc if they'll fold a flush? what do u expect to nail w 79cc? a straight flush? str8? flush? why play it pre? good live read but why play it 2 fold close to best u could expect?

[@vlada_janjanin]

she folded her flush THIS TIME, she will call it off other 9 times she hit her flush when the situation is different. it's called playing poker

[@Manning_Family]

How could you lose to a Royal when you have the nut flush?

[@matplewa1966]

Was thinking the same thing, its impossible

[@jefflaw9950]

Maybe a straight flush he meant

[@kcc-karenschroniccorner9432]

To have the nut flush you just need the A with another suited card. So the nut flush could be A9 but a 9 is obviously not part of a royal.

[@bryantaylor9874]

Wait did she say he snap folded to 40 more? I know he was obviously beat but that was a 1200ish pot so he'd only have to win 1 out of 30 times to make that call and I've also seen enough wacky shit to believe the raiser turns over a set instead of a flush 1 out of 30 times at 1-3.

[@ansellovestogroworganicall2180]

She folded to the button, not the bettor, good fold as it turns out.

[@dandattola]

97 suited, in Wichita KS, that hand is known as "dough maker"

[@lostaccident]

Whys that?

[@dandattola]

@@lostaccident there was an underground game that the dealers swore they saw more money made with that hand consistently, than any other.

[@erezmaman5103]

I dont care if its extremely obvious button has the nut flush, im always calling off the last 30-60 dollars if i have a straight lmao. i have the pot odds in case he misread his cards or is a terrible player overplaying a set. Even if one in twenty times button had a brain fart and thought there was four clubs on the board and he has the ace of clubs. 50 into like 1500? I mean still probably a good fold but i find it funny wiht those pot odds

[@DanielSong39]

7-9 suited? Fold pre

[@compteofficiel4112]

nit

[@curtsheldon2655]

What did the Button have?

[@FastdounutTV]

How can someone have a royal vs nut flush?

[@CanadianLoveKnot]

So what did BU have a flush?

[@xawee7254]

how can someoone have a royal vs nut flush?

[@laryabeyta974]

9 10 diamonds should not shove? Right?

[@marc6157]

Was wondering if I was the only one who was realized that we STILL DONT KNOW WHAT THE GUY HAD. he snap folds 5,7 ok YOU BEAT THAT THOUGH. but now I see in the comment that the villain has ace queen of clubs.

[@funmaster4632]

Donkey betting is probably good in 4 plus

[@SeventhCereal]

Definitely not a fold. It's just scared money and it is definitely not the right approach to poker. You have to be willing to go broke often to get the value that Bart alluded to. You may look like a degen but in the end the math works out and you crush long run.

[@Gos1234567]

@Monah Zaini Look dont listen to Jay P with his "you HAVE to do this" "You should have done this",its a terrible way to play poker being blinkered and constricted to thinking there is only one way to play.As we have seen from solvers they will play mixed,sometimes folding or calling or raising sometimes just purely based on radomization.Even top pros like Chidwick will even play outside of the box and call down or fold based purely on gut instinct. I wouldnt have folded in that spot but you were at that table,none of the rest of us and based on table dynamics each situation is different. People that play blinkered and think "oh i HAVE to call here on river because of somethings i did pre" will never improve as they cant look beyond there own little rules and mantras

[@chadjohnson6718]

I really didn’t like how you were saying this is a only not a fold because it is low stakes, the games are weak, and some players might be getting out of line. This is almost never a fold to a 60% pot even in a 3 way pot, you are folding way too often if you are only calling with the absolute or 2nd nuts and can be easily exploited.

[@cyruslever586]

Your opponent can't have a royal if you have the nut flush

[@TheGuyCalledX]

unless they mean the nut non straight flush, e.g. 9sX vs KsX on AsQsJsTsX

[@haroldmoss6864]

First of all she should have never played 7 9 of clubs for 50 dollars.First mistake.Second mistake is on the flop she should have taken it down with a large bet.

[@TheGuyCalledX]

You're way undervaluing 97s if you think you should never call a 3-bet with that hand. It's a marginal fold at worst. It's rarely dominated and has great playability on boards unlikely to hit a 3-bettors range. As long as you are capable of playing post-flop (e.g. not getting sticky when you hit top pair) it won't be a huge mistake and can be profitable in a lot of low stakes games where you'll be able stack people where your hand is relatively disguised.

[@dontich]

Dang nice fold, no chance I fold that lol

[@ethannissani7062]

The biggest leak of many low stakes live players is that they are unbalanced and super predictable (sizing, behavior ect) which means that after a couple hours of playing with them, you can start going for super exploits including big folds. Or you can follow Bart’s advice, improve your value betting and avoid making big exploits, and crank out $15/hr in these games, I mean that’s great if you hate money.

[@ethannissani7062]

Huh I guess I thought there was a difference between disagreeing with a particular piece of advice and thinking your better than someone, but it is the internet, so I could be wrong.

[@ethannissani7062]

Ok I apologize. I should’ve chosen my words more carefully. I was wrong to suggest that people follow Bart’s advice hate money. I should have realized that I would be hurting the feelings of some of the more devoted fans by saying that. I’m truly sorry.

[@ethannissani7062]

In a better world you would’ve directed your energy toward the content of what I was saying instead of going on a persistent tangent about who’s better at poker me or Bart. Goes without saying that Bart is much better poker player than I’ll ever be, it just annoys me that and order engage in a discussion with people like you I have to admit that upfront, Otherwise you will spend all your time and energy being enraged that I had the temerity to question one of your idols.

[@drrob567]

Bart, too many women, or too many royal flushes in your life to keep straight? lol

[@44magdeagle]

Monah claims villain had AQ cc to make her self feel better about folding a winner 80% of the time. Also So nitty not to make a medium size bet on the flop. Hell and even if he did have AQ cc why are you playing 79cc just fold pre and wait for nut flush hands with an Ace never a King. An Ace! And if you make a King high flush on this board always snap fold to any bet 😁😁😁

[@blamtasticful]

80% huh good to know you did the math lol

[@PL-od8fc]

what a dumb comment. you're telling me you'r going to donk the flop into the 3bettor with 2 other players in the hand? now i know youre a results oriented fish. but you're saying its "soo nitty not to make a medium size bet on the flop" BRO hahaha did you even watch the hand? Since when is it so nitty not to donk into the preflop 3bettor. Donking is far from the standard play, and you're acting like its expected. Id love to play against you man

[@44magdeagle]

dave smith what are you talking about dude. She flopped an open ender with a back door flush. Its not donking a flop when you have huge amounts of equity and you can basically fold out wide range of hands including aq c that missed. If youre going to play 79suited this is a dream flop. You do play however you want though

[@PL-od8fc]

@@44magdeagle its still considered a "donk lead" especially when its ia 3BET 4-WAY pot you just don't do it you'd have to be extremely balanced and do it with your sets and that's just unlikely. good players don't generally have a donk lead range. its a term, the only term for it. Im not saying anyone who does it is a donkey, but its definitely non-standard, so its strange for you to be advocating for it like its so normal and the correct play

[@edmondtiryak4797]

No.

[@kitbillion7783]

Just donk the flop

[@kitbillion7783]

Donk flop for 90 and ship turn, easy

[@kitbillion7783]

And if anyone raises flop, fold

[@kitbillion7783]

Quick addition: donk betting on boards where you have a range advantage over the preflop aggressor can make sense. Usually the pfa shouldn't have any of the sets and also has no good hands in his range that play well on future streets. So imo it's just bad to donk into someone with range advantage and otherwise it can be a strong play

[@monahzaini5362]

@@kitbillion7783 I'm $800+ effective with the straddle, I'm not shipping the turn. There is some merit to betting out on the flop, but often times I'm just betting into over pairs. Obviously here it would have gotten the PFR out, but I'm not in the best spot if he calls and I don't pick up additional outs on the turn.

[@ryanlisterman1864]

Moral of the story, 3bet more rivers as a bluff.

[@connman8d617]

LOL. Bets $360 then snap folds to $40 more.

[@aubrieburke8497]

Hero fold, what? It's flat or raise. Why bring up river fold as it's nonsense.

[@PL-od8fc]

did you even watch the video? like 99% of women you obviously don't play thinking poker. the girl in the video sounds smart, i'll give her that, but you're an idiot. you can't raise in that spot. i shouldn't be surprised you have no concept of ranges. i know most people can't make that fold, i couldn't, but to call it nonsense shows your ignorance. you are probably new to poker so i will cut you some slack. keep on learning, bart has some good content here on his channel

[@mengzilla6496]

7 9 $50 lol

[@nonma2312]

haha.. women...