Should we have installed an Air Source Heat Pump ?!?

[@counseloridealist]

Thank you for posting. I live in western Washington state and have close to an identical outlook on the things you mentioned. I’m 70 and have a full background in construction from the military and my parents too. I also had a career in medicine and have university science degrees. I am able in general building, plumbing, electrical, drywall, and fine woodworking and finishing. The one thing I can’t change is the fluctuation in material supplies and costs. Even my reading of history doesn’t add much to today’s economic outlook and social climate. My parents went through the Great Depression and Spanish Flu but our worldwide pandemic was different. People are different now. There were 2.5 billion humans when I was born. Now there are 8 billion. You have a good head on your shoulders. I think you will get through the present alright. It’s compromise where you have to, don’t overthink everything, just the critical things, and do what I did, keep the family first. The best to you and yours. Curt

[@JJ-zg1hh]

Really good video. It's nice to see someone big enough to re-evaluate a point of view and admit any original shortcomings. That speaks volumes about this guy's character.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Cheers!

[@delboy6384]

@@GosforthHandyman where's your channel been hiding! As a heating engineer just up the road from you at Morpeth, I can say first hand the people that jumped the gun are bitterly disappointed with their new heat pumps. Paying more now already than previously with a combi to heat/provide hot water in their home water....

[@dave24-73]

Have to agree this is how you get credibility

[@showme360]

Great video, and all credit to you coming out correcting errors. We bought our 1963 bungalow in mid Wales 6 years ago, and the first thing I had done was to have Solar put on the roof 3kw, planned with the idea of expanding it to 10kw, and it does not feed into the grid. Our then 2 fossil fuel cars both old Vauxhall Vectra's one converted to LPG, both failed one after the other within 8 months. The misses car went first, I had already explored the idea of EV's and we bought one, a 2011 Nissan Leaf for £6'500. I did the same after my Vauxhall packed up 7 months later. 2015 Nissan Leaf for £9'750. We were saving each year £1'200 in running costs compared to the Vauxhall, not including savings in servicing etc. That gave us a plan to payback in 5 years. We both paid them back this year, mine was settled just a week ago. We now have in our pockets £1'200 a year each extra to spend. So 3 years ago our old Grant Combe Oil burner sprung a leak in the water jacket, I managed to repair for that winter, but we needed a replacement. After much research we decided to go for a LG 9kw Therma V monobloc ASHP, we decided on mono-block, because that meant it was a self contain machine in the garden nothing else was in the house, we kept the same pipe work which was mixed in diameter through out the home, and kept the same rads. Our budget, and plans for the house would not allow these changes until we do our extension further down the road. To install our ASHP we paid an MCS approved local engineer of which there was only 2, which cost us £7'650 installed. We got the Government Grant of £7k before it was lowered to £5k. It took a day and half to complete. I removed the old Oil burner, and got £160 in selling the newly replaced parts to sell on, and scrap value. The oil tank had £300 of fuel left in it, which we sold to locals and friends. The Oil Tank was given away in return for a bottle of wine. The ASHP works just as good as the oil burner and heats our poorly insulated home most all the time. The ASHP is noisy but that because of the way we had in mounted, that will improve. When in Dec last we hit -8c it did struggle, which was to be expected, so we had installed Infrared panels as a back up plan. I installed them myself, we could uses these when the sun shone in winter months. Our Solar system has grown by another 1kw to 4kw and we have added 31.5kWh of battery storage to the system. We can also use one of our Nissan Leafs as a fall back as we can use the energy stored in the car to run the heating system via a generator connect through a device called a Setec 6kw Mobile Power station. This allows to not only use as a generator, but also should the other car run out of juice we can charge it by the roadside. We can also take it camping and run things like bed warmers, lighting, and electric cooking equipment. The drive behind our reason for change was because of the climate! We have no kids to spend money on, because of health issues. We understand the science and accept that not everyone will want to join the movement. Sadly I don't think there will be enough people to make a difference, but that is no reason not to try. The oil companies simply have to much power over our lives. To end on I would add, (having just watch the end of your video), you can buy into a Solar Farm like Ripple Energy. Its a cooperative of people who have got together to buy into owning their own Wind Turbine, or as in our case a Solar farm. It is in fact cheaper to go down this route at 65% cheaper than having Solar put on your roof. We in vested £3k or a 3kw solar array which will accumulate over the summer months onto our account with Octopus, (what a compnay this is, amazing) and it will be used over the start of the winter months next year. The Solar farm based in Cornwall is an extention of an existing Solar Farm from what I can see on Google Maps and is likely to last 40 years. It is transfereable in a will, which at the age of 63 will happen for me to go to one of my Nieces!! This is how I see the climate debade is solved together with more effiencent machines! Combined with in stream water turbines like Obital Marine who make these machines in Scotland, tidal is avaibable 24/7 12 months of the year, and will stick around until the moon pops off. I will share this video to my friends!!

[@plumberparts]

Hundred percent agree with this video mate. Top work. ❤

[@GosforthHandyman]

Cheers bud! 👍🤘

[@zombiestyled]

That 90 second rant at Government regulation and MsM was perfect. You would never believe that the video would then end with "I'm definitely getting a heat pump ' though. Keep up the good work. Learned a fair bit from this channel 👍

[@hugov392]

You can also eliminate the standing charge if your property no longer needs a gas connection at all. For me that would be £135/yr at the moment.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Yup!

[@ianship5058]

Yes air scourced work in colder conditions I cold Dry climates its because of less ice build up is less .In Higher humidity areas ice build up is increased impairing performance Do your research.

[@gingerelvis]

From a lot of sources I have read Air Source would be useless in the vast majority of older properties, Bosch even say it themselves. For them to be efficient on energy usage / make your home comfortable you would have to spend a HUGE amount on insulation and glazing to reach energy efficiency. By the time you have insulated and installed a heat pump you have far outspent any financial recouperation in any living persons lifetime. That being said insulation is absolutely the best place to start regardless of heat source. If only our government would give a legitimate (and SIMPLE!) financial incentive to insulate our properties rather than scaremongering about gas boilers. My old man had external insulation fitted to just the front of his single block house back when the green deal was a thing and the difference has been amazing.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Would agree that insulation needs to come first. Just need to run the numbers and do the calcs. 👍

[@carolinewright7504]

Thanks for this - the jury is still out for us. You did not include in your figures the cost of the extra storage battery you intend to buy and use next year. I would like a calculation for 1 year Heat pump cost small one 8 kw Valient or similar + installation + estimated amount of electricity for 1 year HW and zoned underfloor heating in a highly insulated eco passive hus. no heat pump and an just electric boiler ( there will be solar from solar slate tiles on the roof and battery storage. How long will it take me to start to actually save money if we get a heat pump. Anyone good at Maths - even our energy advisor can’t work it out. There must be some clever person out there who can work this out.

[@12235117657598502586]

How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡 If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!

[@MarkKidsley1989]

Electricity units are 4x as much though

[@Alfapash]

If you look back in history, governments lie all the time. I had a new gas boiler fitted in October there was no contest for us, the cost of HP's is too expensive. Electricity is still far more expensive (unless you are on economy 7 or 10). Gas 10p and electricity 36p per KWH. The country needs a complete re-think, electricity is still very expensive and I don't want a noisy heat pump. Lots more developement is required. We simply don't produce enough electricity anyway for an all electric world. If we all had electric cars we'd need the equilvilent of 9 new gas fired power station, as for nuclear, the governments should have been building them years ago. They can't even put in a decent railway system, go to Japan for that. Then we come to batteries, plundering the earth for lithium, which will also run out at some point as the whole world will need them to store electricity. Net Zero is a fallicy. If the Uk didn't exist, it would only make a very tiny difference to carbon emisions about 1.5%. China, India and the USA, huge populations that require power and then we have Africa an upcoming continent, whose people will want what the rest of us have. Another reason for not buying an electric car, the devaluation after 3 years between 40 and 50%.

[@Lutonman2010]

I’m a heating engineer. I know dozens of other heating engineers. Now baring in mind that we would get the materials at trade and the installation labour cost would be zero. Have a guess how many of us have fitted heat pumps in our own properties. The answer is zero, not one. That tells you all you need to know about being an early adopter of heat pumps. My advice for anyone considering spending 14k on a heat pump is stick in a decent A rated gas boiler with a weather comp or opentherm and then take the thousands you’ve saved and spend it on a nice holiday to the Caribbean instead. It’s honestly much more rewarding than chasing some eco waffle dream whilst China and India build more coal fired power stations.

[@Anthony-dh3ty]

Great advice, I fully agree. Just got a new Vaillant, weather comp controlled by sensocomfort and esbe electronic mixing valve

[@GosforthHandyman]

It's genuinely getting to the stage where it may be cheaper have a few months off in warmer climes than paying for our energy prices over winter. The irony. 😂

[@Lutonman2010]

@@GosforthHandyman lol. Funny you should say that. My mate has a customer with an ASHP. Admittedly they do have a big five bed detached house, but in December then went to Tenerife for a week as it was cheaper than heating their house as the ASHP was costing £49 a day to run. They currently have a special arrangement with their energy supplier to cap their price at £9k a year!!! When installs on these go wrong they go spectacularly wrong. They are being forced on to an industry and therefore the public that in the majority of cases simply isn’t ready. Your point about service engineers is also very valid. I know of one customer who reckons that every call out was costing nearly 2k. That heat pump is gone now.

[@jacbisgood2221]

We're still very early in the adoption curve. I install heat pumps, granted for the more premium customer and I've noticed that the deciding factor is that they want to reduce CO2 and think it's magic to heat your home with cold outside air. As long as we can run at cost parity then theyre happy. I do understand that it will make almost no difference to the global CO2 output if every home on the UK was to convert to electric heating but it's not very productive advising everyone to stick with gas and go on holiday. I do agree with weather comp and opentherm for sure. I know plenty of heating engineers with heat pumps, they are the tip of the spear though. I'm still on a gas boiler but it still has a few years left until I will swap to an ASHP. If the systems are designed correctly by competent installers all the scare stories will fade away. My systems are running at SCOP of almost 4 on average and I know guys that don't settle for anything under 4.5. Lastly, you'll only pay that 14k once. A lot of that price is to make your system compatible which we need to do as part of Part L anyway, designing radiators to 55⁰C for any heat source. In 20 years it'll be a day's work to swap out the external unit assuming it's been designed correctly.

[@jimskirtt5717]

@@jacbisgood2221 China are building TWO coal-fired power stations EVERY WEEK.

[@SteveMonk1956]

Thoroughly enjoy the rant and information :-) I am considerably older than you so my thoughts will be "Old fashioned" but I have just had a new gas boiler fitted, I must say it is a nice bit of kit, like yours it just sits there and isn't running 100% all the time. I thought there was something wrong with it but apparently it is a modulating boiler and just keeps itself ticking over. It is not a combi boiler, just a regular boiler, being old fashioned I like my hot water cylinder and an airing cupboard. As for electric cars, not for me, I will stick to a good old petrol engine vehicle until they drag me down the road kicking and screaming. I did have a diesel and loved it, but then they painted diesel drivers black and up went the road tax, so I went for petrol when it died. Like you I don't believe a word anyone says, there are too many people who are trying to line their own pockets, they have no interest in us as people or the planet or anything else apart from themselves, whatever they sell you will be wrong in twenty years time. That's my rant over, I could go on but I won't 😂😂🤣🤣Keep up the good work Andy, I am soon going to order a new kitchen from DIY kitchens, I was quite impressed with yours and your thoughts on them. The price is good too. Take care. Oh and don't get me started on the bloody council tax!

[@vaalrus]

In the land of -40C winters, the year after a new build with a high-efficiency gas furnace added a heat-pump for cooling, and used the heat pump until the real depths of winter, December through February when it seems to live at below -25 consistently, the heat pump kept pace, and the gas kicked in. They’re thrilled with the heat pump install.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Wow - that's impressive! 👍

[@vaalrus]

@@GosforthHandyman To be fair, they did build to higher-than-average insulation values and air-tightness, to the point of installing a heat recovery ventilator to control humidity. Also, our energy costs here are a little different… So running a heat pump full gallop at (a converted) 14p a kw/hr when traditionally the gas prices spike is quite attractive. But indeed, the system as sized definitely require the gas backup when the real deep freeze kicked in. I’ll have to puzzle some more on conversions, to get from gigajoules to kwh for gas prices.

[@lukeh3020]

18:43 I don't understand why even normal people who I otherwise respect and usually agree with are buying into conspiracy theories about 15 minute cities. It's just a planning concept to try and create places which are nice to live. I don't know why people reject that idea in the UK so much. Part of the reason most UK cities are so unlivable.

[@davidscott3292]

The whole point of living in a city is to have access to the whole thing for work, recreation or whatever.

[@lukeh3020]

@@davidscott3292 right. So what the problem with making sure you have everything you need within a 15 minute bike ride?

[@JohnnyMotel99]

Ground source and underfloor radiant heating. This should be the rules for all new build.

[@lyndamcardle4123]

Insulation has been the key to your decreased usage Andy !

[@GosforthHandyman]

Cheers - defo Lynda!

[@markc3884]

Slightly off topic, but my sister has a wood/coal burning stove in her 200 year old stone cottage. And when Storm Arwen blew through the North East a couple of Winters back, it kept her alive. She was without electricity for a week at the end of November; she lives out Consett way, so you being familiar with the NE will know it’s bloody freezing then. I hope the Govt doesn’t ban them.

[@GregsWorkshopOregon]

The best part of the video was the very polite rant about the government and mainstream media. Nicely done.

[@logik100.0]

I would say put spend £2-3k on insulation and you will find it easier to recoup your money, make your home nicer and as a bonus when you get a heat pump later it will still be saving you money. Good thing about insulation its will keep working for 50 years.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Defo - insulation lasts!

[@valentinbelchev3301]

Great video Andy as always. Everyone should factor the cost of insulation when choosing Heat Pump as it's quite a major spent on top of HP install.

[@Zebsy]

I looked into this after we'd had solar installed, and came to a similar conclusion - COP3 is great efficiency but electricity can be approx 3x the price of gas per kWh, so you end up around the same on heating prices. Solar (+battery) on the other hand is brilliant, and I'd recommend it if you have the cash for the initial outlay. It's free energy from the sun - awesome! Ours will pay for itself in around 5-10 years and hopefully last longer than that.

[@Merlin55611]

I want to see you go hydroelectric and put that stream at the bottom of the garden to use 😅

[@GosforthHandyman]

I like your thinking! 😂

[@nattybking]

I thought that a while back. So much power that could be harnessed from all the network of rivers that we have in the UK and it isn't utilised at all.

[@UpsideDownFork]

You haven't factored in the efficiency of your gas boiler. If you are using 12439kwh on your gas meter, not all of that is going into heat. Times that figure by 0.8 and you'll be in a more realistic area. Also, SCOP of 4 is realistic these days. 3 is a subpar installation and 5 is unrealistic in the real world.

[@lesonline2268]

The problem of course is the variables which totally skew things. You’ve shown your gas prices as 10.6p - had you been on Octopus tracker the max it went was 6.2 and is currently 3.95 . Had you used those figures, you’d not be tho king a pump was a good deal! Obviously if you pair with solar and battery storage, it skews it even more. I’ve not really got anywhere I could place one, so it’s a gas boiler all the way for me - even though I have 16 panels that can make 6.7kwh and a 9.5kw battery.

[@tonyb3629]

I agree. On new builds that are designed for heat-pumps from the outset, it does make sense, but for a very large percentage of UK homes, it's not cost effective, and in reality impossible. Yes, they are more efficient at turning heat in to heat out (very efficient infact), but they run on ELECTRIC, which is way, way more expensive than gas. Heat pumps only have an average return flow temp of about 45deg, so most UK homes would need larger radiators and possibly pipework too, so there's the additional cost/disruption of that. Heat pumps only really work if your house is insulated to a certain level too (ie, up to the eyeballs!), and finally, you WILL need a 300-400l hot water tank which a very large number of UK houses built in the last 30 years don't have room for, and if you can find room, it's all the additional pipe-work required to plumb it in. Personally, an A+ rated gas/LPG/Hydrogen combi boiler makes a lot more sense, and is a LOT cheaper for the consumer. The governemt will never, ever, not-in-a-million-years reach 600,000 heat pump installs a year. Nowhere near.

[@TCJones]

Do you really need a tank thou? Maybe if you have a bath, but for small homes with a shower that already have an electric shower, why not just use the air source for heat only and then get insta electric hot-water for the kitchen sink and the bathroom tap. I have gas boiler on its way out atm, but i only use gas from nov to end of feb, i am looking into and air source pump atm, mainly as it would save me the gas standing charge, as most ears the gas company's reject my summer usage as the meeter reading is less than 10 units, as my house is insulated. But if i did it, i dont think i would want a tank, A because i just dont need one and the house is to small and B it also takes the cost out of tank out.

[@dave300m7]

I’m surprised you have dismissed the solar panel option, unless you have a massive shading problem, an east / west install can work very well and produce some serious savings. The rates for exported solar power are going up (12 to 15p / KWh now) and anything you use directly saves a lot more. Although you do have to use an MCS certified company, its pretty easy to reduce the installation costs by doing all the prep work for them. If you are thinking of a more “electric” future (heat pumps and EVs) then generating your own power makes sense (just install “bird blocker” to stop the pigeons!)

[@lawman1965]

I've just commented the same. I had a small system installed in March this year (2023) and it effectively took us off grid for the whole summer and we only began importing to charge the batteries in mid October and we exported enough to build significant credit for the winter. We do have shading issues during the winter on one side of the house, sadly, the sunny side. But, we still generate something (particularly on days with light cloud) and having 10kWh of batteries mean that we rarely use full price grid electricity. I fill the batteries on our cheaper rate, not as good as an EV rate but not bad - currently 16.11p per kW. A saving of about 10p per kW every day! If I had an EV and was on Octopus Go I could run my home on electricity priced at about 9.5p per kW!

[@robertgeiger7026]

Sounds like you have an opportunity start a new company within an industry at a basement level by becoming the eighth engineer around Newcastle.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Lol I'll make a killing!! 😂

[@robertgeiger7026]

Truth b known u probably would. 🤔

[@TheErador]

I don't really understand the lack of installers, surely any air con engineer should be able to install heat pumps as 90% of the technology is the same.

[@TheBrick2]

@@TheErador Its the MCS system if its is anything like for solar the admin requirements are aimed t larger firms than one man bands.

[@normanboyes4983]

@@TheErador Totally not true. The fundamental problem with heat pumps is not the heat pump it is marrying it to the house. The hydronic design is fundamental - there are very few heat pump installers doing it correctly.

[@johnavery15]

Renovating our house we had pay 125%, then 150% council tax because it was treated as a second home. It was inhabitable with no furniture, but as you say that counts for nothing anymore. I was paying two lots of council tax, with a premium on one of them.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Yup, absolutely shocking. Then land fill taxes on all the waste from the renovation. No wonder UK properties are falling apart! 🙄

[@joewentworth7856]

On the noise point. A vaillant is very quite you will not hear it any further than 1 to 2m away. Also yhey do not run at 100% 24 7. Well sized unit will run at 50% 24 7 for average temps. Which is even quiter. So peak noise is not high and also only at the very cold moments. In my eperience. Choose carefully and dont add fear to your neighbours.

[@snips73]

I like ASHP, it’s the future.. BUT, it’s to expensive. It’s 350% efficient compared to a gas boiler at 90%, but as electric is 3.5x the cost of gas then means there’s no savings, then if you do have a combi you need to factor in a new water tank to save £0 for your 20k spend Better to invest in battery with off peak charging first and fix any cold spots, drafts etc to make house more efficient, stop heat loss. Plus unless the heating engineer is really good, it can be a bad install and not be 350% efficient

[@hans.vbaalen]

I guess when you decided your actual heating requirement, you looked at the amount of kWh of gas you bought. You are assuming your boiler works at 100% this way, when realistically it's probably around 90% (scop of 0.9). Makes a small but not insignificant difference

[@GosforthHandyman]

Yup - very true! Forgot about the boiler efficiency... just still around the same overall result. 41 year vs 45 year payback. 👍😉

[@leighreed5464]

Always love your stuff Andy and this video was superb. Honesty and humility goes such a long way. I’ve followed the ASHP debate through RogerB and the HeatGeek and it’s this open discussion that helps people make an informed decision based upon their own ethics and situation. As the Essential Craftsman would say “Keep up the good work”

[@electrician247]

Really interesting video. As an electrician it was great to see someone understand the local DNO issues we are faced with. Good stuff.

[@rabhaw2327]

If everyone used heat pumps they would be off more than they would be on because there is not enough electricity generated to supply the electricity needed plus the phenomenal cost to buy and install it seems a no no to me.

[@mrcombiBedford]

Nice video, but remind us to save 22% gas in the winter how much did that cost you? 2023 why are new builds not with H Pumps or solar but they get Combies😕

[@12235117657598502586]

How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡 If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!

[@Tom_Prendiville]

Don't rule out the solar and battery as we have them and our house isn't facing the "right" direction....I decided to fill the roofs with 27 panels and a 20kw battery around a month ago. Today we created just over 40kwh storing half of that in the batteries whilst using what we need throughout the day and exporting the remainder. We have a koi pond with an air source heat pump on it which over 12 months of running costs around half of our electricity usage, before we had solar. We use around 10,000kwh electricity per year on average 😢 Octopus flux is the new tariff and is suited to solar and battery owners paying the highest for exporting depending of time of day. Newer solar panels are much more efficient than previous ones so don't think you are missing out just because your house isn't facing the right direction (fill the roofs with the panels and add batteries....you will be surprised just how good they are). I live in chester-le-street so not too far from you 👍🏼

[@BurpleRX7]

Refreshing to see, As for heat pumps - check out the heat geek channel, they address all these problems and the potential future, EV cars are great, You just need to think, when the model T came out there was not a petrol pump on every corner, similar kind of deal. The fully charged channel do good breakdowns including just how polluting normal fuel actually is, Yes the battery tech needs to improve, and yea so does the infrastructure, but give it time, let the early adopters fund the technology, Not everyone will suit a EV but hopefully in the future we have more options

[@paulmdevenney]

Great to see an re-evaluated opinion. Almost all the criticisms of ASHP that fly around are based on a weak understanding that ASHPs need a different and house specific system design, plus an over optimistic use of the reference "COP" value that tells you how efficient the unit will be (which is driven slightly by the mandated "MCS" design process). The larger radiators are actually because the flow temperatures for water with an ASHP can and should be much lower. This is because the system is MORE, not LESS efficient. It is however a very different style of system. Other things that system designers get wrong is misdesigning for water heating and ending up needing an additional immersion coils (which one way you can lose the efficiency). The modern ones run at around 50dB (and are definitely no louder than the sound of the gas boiler). The other area that really needs to be considered with ASHPs is that because they use electricity, they can benefit from solar, batteries and agile tariffs. You are totally right that the heat pump is an expensive retrofit and its hard to find the installers right now (more important is to find the system designer). We're about 100K short of installers.

[@MG-qo5ge]

Be very careful the price of electric will have to change 10 p/kW/h for gas and 28 p/kW/h for electric and that is off peak 40 +p/kW/h the efficiency does not quite stack up with with the additional installation cost

[@12235117657598502586]

Plus How the HELL does the UK government expect ordinary British Citizens to afford to buy an air pump at approximately £8,000 (with government grant) + upgrading the insulation of their homes (to reduce heat loss)… WHEN A RAPIDLY GROWING NUMBER OF HARD WORKING HOME OWNERS CANNOT EVEN AFGORD TO PUT ENOUGH FOOD ON THEIR TABLES NOW??? 😡 If the UK government pass their unfair evil, ‘energy bill’, and FORCE EVERYONE to rip out our existing heating…Then I predict that Britain will see riot’s that will make the Poll Tax riots look like a kid’s tea party!

[@dougsaunders8109]

Nah. Let other people be the experiment. Electric is not being given away. Hot water storage is also a cost. Never enough water when you need it and more than enough when you don’t

[@GosforthHandyman]

Until our electricity supply issues are sorted it's a bit of a gamble.

[@simonrowlands297]

Well done Andy. I have looked at all of your videos on this house renovation. Your thought processes are similar to mine I find. You made the right decision to go for a gas boiler at the time (I made the same decision for the same reasons). Whilst it is nice to be an early adopter of new green technologies, you need to ensure that you are doing the right thing for you and your family. It's easy to get taken up with a sexy high tech solution because it is exciting. The costs should rule it out - for the moment at least but I'm sure that most of us will have heat pumps in the future. For me, the technology and critically, the support infrastructure is just not there yet as you have already shown. Geeky people like us may be able to cope with the demands of such tech, but not so the average householder: if they can't even manage with the TRVs on their current systems, then they will be right over their head with a heat pump combined with batteries and PV panels combined. Keep up the good work.

[@stevepettifer4896]

Urban Plumber is another good channel for heat pump info, including retrofits. He is a Heat Geek qualified plumber (wish there were more), but he is also very unbiased: Deals only with facts and real-world experience, and is still also a very active gas engineer. I like the idea of a heat pump as we have electric only and cannot have gas or oil for various logistical reasons. I don't see it as a 'cheaper' way of heating my house as it is often (incorrectly) portrayed because of course we cannot have gas anyway, but we use perhaps 15000-16000 kWh per year to heat our 4 bed end terrace which is part 200 year old cob/stone and part 20 year old slightly shoddy extension, plus hot water cooking etc. That's not cheap on electric only, but it's no more than an average house of our size uses, but the temperature in our house in winter was never all that good - we aren't the types to have it set to 25C+ or whatever, but 19-20 is comfortable for us and that was a struggle to achieve. We have a 6kW flow boiler running 5 UFH heating zones, each of which has it's own time and temp programmable stat with app control (Heatmiser, an easy upgrade from old temp only dial stats), and we are on an economy 7 tariff so during the 7 hours of cheap rate we can bung the temperature up which helps during the day. However, we have other problems to solve first before I can even contemplate a heat pump. We have just upgraded a load of 20 year old aluminium framed double glazing which was awful: On cold mornings the frames were maybe 3-4C on the inside and the whole glass and frame would be soaked in condensation. We've had modern uPVC installed (alu clad timber was just too expensive for us), albeit the way it's made is with the traditional cutlines of 18th/19th century timber windows and a grain pattern so it looks like painted wood, surprisingly convincingly. It's even been approved on listed building in some areas. This alone has made a big difference to the comfort of the house. Next, the crappy old single glazed back door which you can see daylight round the frame of. New, custom made oak door (it's in the old bit of the house so it's a weird size, and a stable door because the wife insisted) and a threshold which the current door lacks are going in soon. After that, the front door needs doing (more draughts) and four old handmade wooden windows need refurbishing with new glass and whatnot. Then, we ned to put insulated plasterboard into the new extension on the ceiling (don't ask - the original builders and architect were true morons so we have no access to the roof void, save for downlighter holes, to improve the inadequate insulation). I might also look into improving wall insulation in the extension since it only has 25mm celotex and in some places it's on the inner leaf of the wall and some places the outer, so I can't see it being as effective as it should be. In the meantime, being a software developer I am writing some apps to automatically scrape my energy usage from Octopus, plus air temps etc to do something similar to your graphs, Andy, and after all that work is done (probably 2 more years as it costs a bleedin' fortune!) then I might be in a position where once funds allow, a heat pump *might* make sense. A nice win of, say, 50k on the lottery would probably let me sort all that out in one go and re-render the old part of the house in new lime (and re-do some lime plaster inside) - best buy a ticket!! Even after all that lot, we might not have enough room for the cylinder as our existing, much smaller one, is in the loft and a lot of installers won't put stuff in lofts for whatever reason. And I'm not sure we have a logical place to put the outdoor unit either as they're not exactly tiny. But we'll see how the tech develops and maybe we'll be able to do something. Failing that, a heat battery would be my other avenue for on-demand hot water and they are pretty neat and can take advantage of cheap rate power and would provide more than our 144l tank does, but they are about £3k plus fitting so not cheap either, and often weight ~200kg so siting them is tricky too.

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

Urban Plumber never seems to give the full picture on the economics though. I love his channel and his work but he's not willing to lay out all the figures like we've just seen in this video. Really annoying...

[@roscopeco2000]

Firstly can i recommend the Heat Geek channel to everyone, those guys' are highly knowledgeable on heat pumps, I work in architecture so i know abit about this subject. You have done a lot of the prep work already by insulating your house as you've progressed so it would help any future conversion. I am also having an octopus energy assessment done on my 80s bungalow so i am interested to see the results . Also like you've suggested ive turned my combi flow temp to rad circuit and also hot water temp down to 45 degrees, which works well for baths/showers but we do find it abit too cold for home heating. I suspect we will have to add more radiators which is annoying but needs must.

[@sdgelectronics]

Much of their advice seems to be based on theoretical maximums. Real-world averages never reach near the COP values they suggest and likely never will with a wet heating system. Air handlers are much more efficient!

[@roscopeco2000]

@@sdgelectronics ok but what about an air to air source pump ?

[@GosforthHandyman]

Will check out Heat Geek! Do they fit heat pumps?

[@roscopeco2000]

@@GosforthHandyman yes they do i particularly recommend the 2 parter they did with skill builder kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHfTqZymp8iFnLs

[@C4sp3r123]

@@GosforthHandyman Heat Geek is very good, worth watching the Skill builder discussion videos they did. Quick search should find them, think it was one reaction one and then one to one with Rodger, entertaining as well

[@Richardincancale]

Well done on owning up! I live in the country and noise was a big consideration for a heat pump - I’ve walked around the neighbourhood and heard the whirring buzzing noises made by some (cheap) units. I spent an extra €3k on a unit expressly because it just makes a noise like the wind in the trees, no buzz or whirring… Even the circulating pump was chosen and set up to minimise the noise. Result - it’s much much quieter inside and out than the oil system it replaced.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Yup, the tech will advance to make them all much quieter. Even the design of the fan blades can make a huge difference.

[@Tom_Prendiville]

​@@GosforthHandyman on ours i can select silent mode from the app or set timers for when you want it to be quieter but even when it's going full pelt it's not loud.....I don't have many neighbours and the horses have not complained yet 😂

[@paulowen9628]

Sorry, Andy, I think you been suckered in and while it may be OK for those with money who can afford the high initial cost. For most it is just pie in the sky. I didn’t hear any real technical arguments in support of ASHP and no mention of the regular servicing and associated cost. Until they invent an absolute silent fan every unit in a local area will combine, the more densely populated the louder the noise. Try and find someone in your area with an ASHP and go listen at night. Was your gas price inclusive of the Energy Price Guarantee? If not, my cost per KwH is 60% higher than yours and of course we have the standing charge on top. These topics need face to face debate to get anywhere near a compromise solution and we already know that we don’t get told the truth. If only we lived in an ideal world but we don’t and we never will. Great Chanel by the way. I really enjoyed following your renovation. Regards, Paul Sorry Andy 😷

[@Richardincancale]

@@paulowen9628 The technology works, and has roughly halved my costs compared to oil, but there are other reasons than simple finance to cut oil and gas usage. I want my children to have a future, and it’s not enough to wait for governments to act - they won’t. I also don’t want to send my money to places like Russia, Saudi Arabia and Qatar to buy oil when they clearly don’t share our values and way of life.

[@stevepettifer4896]

@@paulowen9628 the arguments about heat pumps being cheaper than gas are a bit disingenuous in many cases and there are a lot of factors at play, but they *can* be cheaper than gas. That doesn't mean they will *all* be cheaper though, by any means, and as Andy rightly says, it's often better to spend money on insulation work now and then worry about changing the heating source later. The equation changes with LPG and oil rather than mains gas, of course. That being said, there are annual maintenance costs for boilers too, and parts are often more expensive than parts for heat pumps, as the heat pumps are inherently simpler machines with few moving parts. No matter what heat source you have, annual servicing is a good idea, so although the absolute cost for that service may differ, it's not going to be wildly different.

[@robgullen]

Heat pumps look like they're today's "snake oil" . . . my research (we have a gas boiler + tank system) is pretty much parallel to yours on cost and payback.

[@GosforthHandyman]

I think they're the logical 'long term' solution... mainly since they're so simple. But for the moment we're not quite there yet. 👍

[@Stormf0rce999]

I got my house 15 years ago a new build with Air source heatpump heating fitted, can't fault it at all, never broken down and always produces enough heat through the radiators and enough hot water for a family of 4 for showers etc. I guess an older property with not as good insulation may have issues, the noise yeah you can hear it and I can hear my neighbours but certainly not at all bothersome.

[@highpath4776]

Electric Vehicles for now prob best for things that do lots of mileage - like delivery vehicles and buses first. For Heat Pumps see also Technology Connections Channel

[@GosforthHandyman]

Loved his vid on the V2L with the Ioniq 5. Amazing! 👍

[@salibaba]

😂😂 and yet the first thing the naysayers have against EVs is that they don’t have any range to go anywhere. They’re now driving more miles on average per day than ICE, probably as people cotton on to the fact that of their 2 cars, the EV is cheaper to run, so automatically choose that as the first choice when possible.

[@IanHaywardCalvados]

EDF here in France currently charge me 0.206 cents/kwh - that equates to around 0.177p/kwh. (depending on the current exchange rate). That's under half the price you quote - and presumably EDF in the UK is also charging double what they do in France. Rum old world, eh!

[@Sean_S1000]

Really good video and well done, on your work so far on your home. When heat pumps costs come down I think they would be a worth while investment assuming you have copper pipes of the correct size already in the house... unlike mine which is riddle with plastic pipe and according to heat geek I would need to basically upgrade all the pipes in the house to a larger size or change them to copper, which ripping the house to bits is not an option.

[@boli2746]

I looked into this seriously myself a year or so ago. Combi boiler is hands down the best for me. Copper pipes are 12mm (so would need to replace all the pipework) but more importantly, the pre (first world) war house I have has solid walls. So it is impossible to fully insullate. We've done our best (new roof, insulated) but the walls are what sucks the heat out now and you need the burst heat from a combi to heat the home in winter.

[@colin4685]

I've never heard of a combi boiler being described as "burst heat". You mean a gas boiler will give you a higher initial, quicker rise in central heating temperature?

[@boli2746]

@@colin4685 compared to a heat pump. Yes. Heat pumps work great for fully insulated homes... My home only half insulated due to solid walls so will be so useless

[@colin4685]

@boli2746 yes I know how they work. I'm a heating engineer. It's the lower water temperature flow rate and larger size of heat emitters that allow ashp to transfer its heat. Have you had a professional heat loss calculation done on your home?

[@davewright9312]

Andy you need to do your apology I got it wrong again...re council tax you CAN get a 50per cent discount for a 12 month period of time if the house is classed as uninhabitable..so removal of the bathroom facilities and or the kitchen facilities makes it inhabitable

[@davewright9312]

There are a lot of negative considerations that you have skirted over here Andy ...if a house requires bigger radiators and bigger pipework say 22 or 28 mm then that pipework is going to be very difficult to hide so you have fugly piping on show.. additional or bigger radiators mean that in many houses furniture placement becomes more difficult and radiators end up behind furniture the capability to site a monstrous heat pump is also not viable for lots of people and as you have mentioned..the noise that they emit will certainly cause some neighbour disputes. They are definitely a marmite subject at the moment .

[@tlaroche38]

Definitely consider an air to air system rather than air to water Much easier to install, faster response times, and you get air con in the summer Not to mention none of the issues with hydronic heating like sludge, water leaks, big radiators in the way etc..

[@geoffreycoan]

Thanks for the follow up video and for correcting points that you got wrong. We’ve had our heat pump since January 2022 and whilst it does make a noise when running, its not particularly noticeable, and a boiler makes a noise when running so we don’t feel thats an appreciable difference. As part of our installation plenty of radiators were replaced but none of the pipework needed to be upgraded, its all 15mm standard throughout. We have two pumps in a push/pull configuration and that gets the water round just fine. In our case we have no gas in our village and had oil heating but the tank failed and the latest regulations meant that a new tank would have to be in the middle of the garden - 1.5m from any building/shed, 0.75m from hedges and boundaries. So we elected for an air source heat pump and received the previous RHI grant which was much more generous. After the grant the cost of replacement is about the same as a new oil tank, give or take. A SCOP/COP of 3.5 is quite typical and in our case running costs are about the same. One more thing to correct though, there is no “wrong orientation” of your roof for solar. They are just less efficient if not South facing. I was told 5-10% less efficient. Our roof is North/South aligned so we have panels on the front (East facing) and back (West facing). On a sunny day our 14kW batteries are full by mid morning!

[@Soulrollsdeep]

We're having an octopus ASHP install done at the end of January. A few things to note: 1. Our house is a 1800sqft semi built in 2011 2. We have no gas, so have relied on an electric boiler (the cost is unfathomable. £5 an hour, and then some) 3. The install from octopus is an 8kw Daikin EDLA08E2V3 air to water 4. I've paid a £500 deposit (refundable) 5. Government grant has since increased to £7500 6. Total cost for install (as they throw another £250 into it for you now as well) is £3350 That cost is £11600 for the heat pump, minus the £7500 BUS Grant, minus the £500 deposit, minus the additional £250 Now, if that isn't a bargain, I simply don't know what is. Expected energy usage all year for the heating and hot water is 3335kwh, or £1006 based on a 0.30p/kwh electricity cost. However, we also recently had a 4kwh solar array and battery installed. We also bought an EV and can charge the battery at 7.5p/kwh and run any other electric items overnight at that cost, so the heat pump will draw from the batteries. I intend to expand the battery storage to cover our entire daily usage, so assuming that all goes to plan, we can have the heating and water bill at around £251.62 for the year. But let's assume we only do 50% of the heat pump usage via battery, it'll be around £700ish per year. We also plan to expand the solar panels by another 10, so we'll have an 8kwh array. The excess will pump back into Octopus at 15p/kwh which over summer should bump our credit to the point that we're (hopefully) close to zero outgoings on energy bills. I'll report back in January 2025 to let you know how it goes 😂 I don't care about pay back time as I simply want the worry of outgoing bills to essentially disappear.

[@loaderladdy]

eating your own humble pie in a very constructive way is very good Andy. I know from your videos that your floors and ceilings are well insulated but I cannot remember if you insulated your walls. 1920’s house sounds like it might be solid brick construction. Does your house cool down quickly overnight? I keep our house at about 18ºC, but when I setting the schedule for turning off at 6PM by the time the heating started again at 6AM the internal temperature had dropped by between 3º to 4º and it would take the boiler 90mins to 2hours to heat the house up to target temperature again. I now keep the target temperature at 18ºC 24 hours a day and depending on the weather it comes on between every 90 mins to 2hours for about 15 mins a time. some days I make a loss over scheduling it but on the whole I am using less gas. I know I need to insulate the solid brick walls in our 1904 built house but doing that isn’t a priority at the minute for me. But I knowI would save a lot more money. I’m still out on the whole Air Source Heat Pump thing but thank you for your well thought through analysis.

[@Wellspicedchaffinch]

The noise output on these things will be the next fabricated set of statistics used to sell units. 100%. Sound pressure levels are SO inaccurately recorded on most devices already (e.g. dishwashers and kitchen hoods). If my neighbour bought one of these I'd be gutted. Imagine trying to sell your house with one of these running in the garden next door...

[@michaeldavis7199]

I have had my Mitsubishi Ecodan airsource for 9 years and the neighbours either side of me and at the back have never said a word about noise! The neighbour on my left is a bit of a Victor Meldrew and he definitely would have said something 😂

[@tlangdon12]

@@michaeldavis7199 The noise of the units is over-reported by people that don't like them. Anyone considering getting an ASHP will only be buying the latest, and therefore quietest models available.

[@kinross24]

Also, your air source heat pump can be supported by Solar and battery storage, saving more and the payback faster for the solar!

[@gwenscoble6229]

I'm about to replace my oil boiler with ASHP. Why? The lack of routine maintenance, the engineer has gone to breakdown maintenance only, highly agravating 2 breakdowns in 2 months, no service but 2 call outs and days of no heating! When I used to go to work, central heating came on timetable. Now I've retired, my routine is no longer predictable. My radiators are set at 1 or 2 at the moment so there is scope to have a lower flow temperature. I am having a double fan ASHP which is theoretically a replacement for my boiler and can have similar flow temperatures. I live alone so can shower, wash clothes etc as hot water is available. My hot water tank is adequate for 2 showers together. I have had solar panels and a battery installed so hope to take the cost edge of some of my electricity costs. Major peeve is the electric company hasn't increased the payment it makes when I sell mine to them, but have to buy back at the inflated rate! Ie they are profiting from all those micro generators. Grrr

[@jlmfoy365]

Andy, combi boilers are expected to last about 7-10 years ish. If that's the case I'd look to change then. Regards Jim.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Yup, I think that could be a sensible timescale. 👍

[@wajopek2679]

If you get proper OEM service ( where they open it up and clean the heat exchanger) and it’s set up with low flow temp correctly, you should get 15 yrs or more. New WBosch combos come with 10ths warranty

[@HATCHETHAS]

Agreed jlm, we replaced ours last year 10 year warranty £2k installed that will take us up to the point the HP market has matured.

[@v88krb]

Our 4 bed detached house is only 20 years old yet was built with no cavity wall insulation and a polycarbonate roof in the conservatory which is part of the kitchen. We had the roof replaced with a fully insulated solid roof and the cavities have been filled with the spray ball glued insulation. Our gas consumption has reduced by a third over the year and the kitchen and conservatory are useable all year round. Very pleased!!

[@GosforthHandyman]

Fantastic! We have family who just went for a warm conservatory roof - huge difference!

[@stevepettifer4896]

The extension on our house is about the same age. It does have some insulation in the walls - I saw it when I had the windows upgraded recently. but it's just 25mm of celotex or equivalent and in some places it's on the inner leaf of the wall and in some places it's on the outer leaf. Seriously considering the sticky ball stuff to improve performance. We have got rendered walls which keeps the water out (cement render on that part since it's block wall, lime on the old cob/stone part) so should be OK, but need to find some sort of reliable, trustworthy firm to assess.

[@theoddjobcentre6686]

@@GosforthHandyman I wouldn't bother with air source. A fire that heats the water and radiators is probably the best way or a 2 way system if you want to keep your boiler and have air source

[@theoddjobcentre6686]

@@GosforthHandyman we have it we don't get hot water

[@paulbutler5749]

Hey Mr. Handyman big respect for re-evaluating your position. You still say air source heat pumps have a noise issue. My lived experience is that our valiant 11kw heat pump is loads quieter than the vallient combi boiler it replaced. Even in hot water boost boost mode you have to get within 3 meters of it before you hear it. The Combi boiler we could hear from the bedroom. When it modulates down normal heating mode you have to walk right up to it before you hear anything. We live in quiet countryside. And no, it doesn't run all the time, only when the leky is cheap.

[@iAnton3000]

What are your issues with 15min cities?

[@GosforthHandyman]

Local amenities = great. Lots of cameras forcing you to stay near said local amenities = bad.

[@paulbutler5749]

Your electricity is very expensive. Cosy octopus we pay 11p/kWh during the cheap periods 13/kWh average after load shifting the heat pump and car charging.

[@AltoEnergyLimited]

Great to hear you changed your views on heat pumps! It's so important to challenge your views, especially the way the MSM works these days.

[@jacopo.scarpellini]

We also just finished a renovation and, although we didn’t replace the perfectly working gas boiler, something we should have done was installing underfloor heating all round That would have made switching to a heat pump more viable if ever needed in the future

[@ThePhilGrimm]

Things catch on when they're affordable and cost effective. I have never owned a car of less than 5 years old. The cheapest Tesla on AutoTrader is currently priced at £18K which is 3 times my budget. I won't be going electric in the foreseeable future. In your shoes, I'd keep the combi until the payback time on the heatpump makes it a no brainer.

[@wajopek2679]

If gas was the same price as back then, this wouldn't have been a video. It was the right product at the right price at the right time. However, consider not just one quiet heat pump on your house, but a whole street and the neighbours over the back. In time, there will be a natural "hum" in the background.

[@DragonXDrei]

£100k for all that work? I just got quoted £100k on a 4bed with 2 receptions to paint any fix any holes cracks and put down engineered wood... I worked it out and it comes down to about £8k worth of materials, and 50k of labour cost... same situation as you, paying for two places and am baffled by the prices given. If I want the heat pump is about £22k and 15 solar panels another £20k.

[@raydriver7300]

Good evening Andy. That was so interesting. A few years ago I had spray loft insulation and I now run a plug in hybrid car charged overnight at 7.5 pence per kw hour. I love it BUT in the winter the range reduces by over 50%. Like you, I am confident that technology and infrastructure will grow to accommodate future growth. As always, it’s great to hear from you and look forwards to future videos. All the best to you and your family. Ray 🌞

[@GosforthHandyman]

Cheers Ray! Fantastic stuff. I personally see no issues with the spray foam if it's done right - used all over the US for years. 😎

[@SurreyAlan]

Before we could get a mortgage on a property with spray foam it had to be removed, right or wrong that was the situation.

[@MyEconomics101]

25:40 Assuming you need the same amount of energy (gas, gas boiler, radiators, with or without buffer storage, with hot water) to heat the same house with a heat pump (electricity, heat pump, w or w/o buffer storage, w or w/o hot water integration ... ) is a mistake. The calculation and real world is a bit more complicated. Demo how to calculate correctly after DIN EN 12831: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHy8dYxobdB4fZI One mistake people made during the component shortage is to buy an oversized heat pump for the calculated heat load needed. Or skipping on a buffer storage ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5nGZXuknpeVjLs ).

[@flashback9966]

You really need to be think again about solar panels, as these would make a significant difference to your heat pump calculations. Like yours, our roof pitch faced the wrong way, so I built a 'solar pergola' in our back garden facing south. Consists of 12 panels, giving a peak of 3.6kW and as added bonus some nice shade in the hot summer months to enjoy a cold beer. Oh and I now drive one of those pesky Tesla's, love it!

[@plumbertime]

Them payback numbers say it all! A heating system is an investment. range rate your boiler if it has the option it’ll be in the menu settings(check the manual) maybe install flue gas recovery. Swapping an oil boiler for a heat pump I get it but not a gas boiler. Not for me anyway a heat pump needs to be At least scop 4 as electric is 4 times the price of gas! So scop 4 to break even 1kw gas 10p =1kw power = 40p for 4kw 40p kw electric = 4kw electric power

[@singlendhot8628]

A shame you went with the boiler you did. A Viessmann 200-W would have saved them ALOT of £ compared to that Bosch!

[@bigdocus]

Nice to see you reasses your earlier assumptions. But I'm a bit confused, if the payback is likely to be 45 years+ and you'd need a cylinder (with limited hot water supply), why would you even think about getting one in a few years?

[@GosforthHandyman]

Only if the tech moves on, the price drops and there are more engineers. 👍

[@lightmechanic2370]

10/10 vid and info so well presented! As usual, your mileage may vary. Funny how the brochure and sales pitch is usually overly optimistic. I got sold a new gas forced air furnace claiming my 15yr old unit was less than 75% efficient so a 94% efficient unit would pay back in X yrs. Turns out the new furnace was much more noisy due to small fan running too fast, but gas consumption didn't change despite a slightly warmer winter and our programmed thermostat settings remained exactly the same. The rub for me is discarding perfectly operable and reliable equipment 10 yrs ahead of designed life expectancy. That is a bigger waste of energy than a few whiffs of NG.

[@i.m.peterrific]

I'm in Canberra Australia. It regularly gets to -5C in winter. We use reverse heat pumps for our heating cooling and they work well and are cheap to run. But when it came to hot water we chose to go with an immersion heater during our reno's a few years ago because the cost of heat pump water heaters was absurd. When it's 5 times the cost of a standard old immersion heater, it just doesn't make economic sense. We put on a large solar power system and a timer on our hot water circuit so that it only heats the water through the day. Our total energy costs for the year for a 160m^2 house are around AUD$1000. That is super cheap to me. Before the renos, in the middle of winter our energy cost for 2 months was $1650 for gas heating and electricity supply. There are better ways to achieve efficiency than just choosing the most expensive option for every appliance you can find. Using solar to offset our electricity has definitely paid for itself in the 4 years we have had it.

[@GosforthHandyman]

Interesting! Wish we could make better use of solar. 😭

[@i.m.peterrific]

@@GosforthHandyman it’s the land of sunshine where all the convicts were sent, we deserve some benefits 🤣

[@ipedros7]

wow. I gulped at the gas usage. I know we use relatively little, a detached 4 bed built in 2008. In Dec 22 used:1500kwh. We generally only need central heating from mid Oct - Mid Apr, as its just not needed. Whilst I don't mind putting a jumper on, not one keen on sitting in cold to the bone, Id rather flick the switch. When the children pre-school we had the CH on constant (day time at 19C - 21C and night at 16C) the most we used was 12000KWh iash in the year, comparing that to 9000KWh/year now. Im now looking at solar panels+battery, but undecided on the HP as the biggest incentive atm is that £7.5k to switch now. Got quotes for both from Octopus... Big decision.

[@ipedros7]

27:46 At the cost of £0.38p/kwh, probably there is a case to add a battery just for that purpose. Going on a dual tariff from Octopus, loading the battery at £0.16 off peak there is a £0.22 / kwh saving. For every £0.10 saving over 3500kwh usage it would be £350/year saving. At £0.22 / kwh saving, such battery would be paid off within 2.5 years?

[@stephenlines9431]

If you go 100% electric, you are saving 100% of the gas STANDING CHARGE. There doesn't seem to be any HMG controls on standing charges - every time my energy charges have reduced because of HMG limits, the standing charge has magically increased to ensure that my bill is pretty much static (eye-wateringly high). When you're comparing gas CH with a Heat Pump set-up, it's not just the energy charge that needs to be compared losing the gas standing charge saves a HUGE amount of cost.

[@lawman1965]

Interesting video. With regards to your point about solar power. Which way does your roof face? I have an SE/NW orientation on my roof. Traditionally considered 'wrong way'. However, in Germany they are encouraging people with that direction to have panels to even out the load through the day. I had a small system fitted in March of 2023, just 4.1kw array with a 3.6kWh inverter and 10kW battery storage. The array is split evenly on both sides of the roof. Despite the roof layout, in the sunnier part of the summer we were about to generate enough for all out needs including charging the battery and we exported more than we used. A larger system would have been nicer but our roof size just isn't practical for many more panels and the cost to add them I think would be prohibitive. The point of my comment is that, unless you have very heavy shading for much of the summer, even East West roof space is very good for solar..

[@petermackie2883]

SHOULD WE HAVE INSTALLED AN AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMP. My you can drone on, over 20 minutes before you even got to the subject in hand.. I did hang on however, because I was interested to know the answer. Please, more objective, and a little less subjective.

[@TriciaAndPhily]

In my apartment block we're told not to turn them off ever. They 4 hours to heat radiators on a cold day, if I set my water temp it's always 5 degrees lower. Ireland here but the electricity bill is st very expensive

[@chesshooligan1282]

You only get a COP of 5 in optimal conditions. I'm looking at the Samsung brochure, and if we are to believe the figures they provide, a more realistic SCOP is 4. The price of gas and electricity go up and down all the time, but the; electricity-to-gas ratio appears to be pretty stable at about 4, so you kind of break even -- except for the installation costs. With the Boiler Upgrade Scheme grant amount increasing to £7,500 on the 23rd of October, I'm guessing you can get a heat pump plus water cylinder installed for about the same price as a gas boiler. So cost is going to be about the same, but there are two things I like about the heat pump: 1. It should last about 20-25 years if Google is correct, which is twice as long as a combi boiler. So install and forget about it for a quarter of a century. 2. You could install solar panels and turn your city house into an off-grid house -- almost. You would still need water, but at least you'd be self-sufficient in the energy department, which is kind of cool.

[@dave300m7]

Just to dispel a couple of common myths …….. (1). “The National Grid wont cope if we all buy heat pumps and EVs”. Electricity consumption in the UK is going DOWN, its dropped about 20% since 2005. Transmission wise we actually have a bunch of spare capacity. There is a need to modify local networks, but thats an ongoing process that will always have to happen to cope with changing populations, industry etc. (2). “When the wind stops all the lights will go out”. Right now, in the UK, as an average, about 30% of electricity is generated from the wind, and yes at times the wind stops blowing (although in the North Sea not as often as you might think). When this happens we simply increase the output from (mainly) gas fired power stations (this has happened a couple of times this winter). In the short to medium term this is exactly how the system will run, although the % generated by wind (and solar) will increase. This wont be the final net-zero answer, but part of the transition AND also reduces our dependance on gas year-on-year. This isn’t speculation, we are building the wind-farms right now which will get us to about 50% of demand and solar is looking like it will increase from about 4% to 9% of demand. Both wind an solar are ridiculously cheap compared to gas and aren't controlled by Russia!

[@tomjohnson5885]

I Googled COP in Britain and got 3.5 as an ideal and 2 for an achievable COP number. That gives us 114.02/mo and 199.54/mo respectively which is either break even or double the cost of gas. Of course the relative cost of electricity over gas is subject to change.

[@phasedout6769]

I'm a Heat pump engineer, I remember watching your original video and being triggered by some of those poorly informed claims 😂. Anyway!! Why are you using a pay back period for something that doesn't generate income?. That's akin to buying a meal deal and expecting an ROI 🤦‍♂️. You've not calculated a payback period for the combi 😊.

[@richardlewis5316]

A balanced view from someone (you) who obviously understands property renovations and the always higher cost of doing the work. Based on an average COP of 3 and 4 the payback in monetary terms will never happen so apart from a miniscule reduction in CO2 there is NO point in installing a heat pump and losing space for a big tank which you didn't mention! I live in a modern 3 bed detached and my monthly total energy bill is about £120. so I'll not be swapping the Combi that's for sure!!

[@UpsideDownFork]

MCS guidance states 45 litres per person so Octopus will probably quote a 200ish cylinder. You can request a 250litre or more tank if you are worried about running out. As long as you have the physical space, there is basically no cost difference between the different size tanks.

[@jimskirtt5717]

Should we have installed an Air Source Heat Pump? No. Not only do heat pumps not stack up against gas boiler systems (you don't get your money back - ever), they don't even stack up very well against a cheap electric heating system. A COP of 3.5 is most likely. If you use that figure, you would never get a saving from using a heat pump (as your own figures show). Once you take everything into account, a heat pump would COST you a serious amount of money against gas. Even a COP of 4 still doesn't make it cheaper than a gas system. Against electric, it would still take over 8 years to get your money back - by which time you may have moved home. The insanity is that people are falling for the nonsense without doing the maths. If it (really does) work for you, then great. But you must do the maths - taking everything into account. But swapping out your tired gas boiler for a heat pump will COST you money, not save it.

[@lightmechanic2370]

Great real world analysis! So closing doors, windows and random knock-throughs saves gas. Good to know. : ) Few people would compare availability of technicians in an area. Govt officials that make policy are dumber than you and I. They just do the bidding of corporate lobbyists and use marketing brochure talking points to make policies and spend tax $ with zero accountability. Unlike you and I, who are 100% accountable for our $. 45yr - 195 yr pay back for heat pump. LOL! And was possibly a more realistic estimate. Air to air heat pumps often have the defrost cycles overlooked which bite into efficiency a lot depending on outdoor temps and humidity. I suspect humidity is a big factor in UK. I'd look at long term maint cost of an air to air heat pump. Here in Canada we use central air conditioning which is essentially a heat pump except only cooling. Air Con systems are far more costly to own and maintain than a gas furnace for heating. Heat pumps have more moving parts working in far more demanding conditions (high pressures, compressors, coolant leaks, etc) than a gas forced air furnace. 1995 I upgraded a 32 yr old oil fired forced air furnace that had a gas conversion burner installed much of its operating life. The claim was the old furnace was at risk of cracking of the heat exchanger and we could DIE, and new furnaces were much more efficient. The claim was our old unit could not be any more efficient than 60% - 70%. A 90% efficient unit was installed and our gas bill was within a couple $ exactly the same (paying actual consumption not equalized billing). The furnace was installed mid winter so direct comparisons of similar weather and gas prices was easy with little compensation necessary. Meanwhile the temp of the house remained exactly the same using the existing programable thermostat. Meaning just because the furnace was efficient, we didn't crank up the heat. Side note: The old furnace had a larger circulating fan that was much quieter and moved more air so comfort level was not identical in all areas of the house. Sure tech changes but overly optimistic or exaggerated claims are always used to sell products. Since then I'm careful to not base such decisions solely on saving$ to pay off more costly or efficient equipment. Consider the fact the existing hardware is already paid off and has the smaller environmental footprint. 25 yrs later in a newer home, I repair the existing furnace while neighbours get convinced replacement is the best value. I ask what their costs are like and despite the claimed super high efficiency, their costs are right in line with ours, and homes are about the same age and comfort level.

[@5084204]

13:30 - you are lucky with your availability of 7 installers. Slightly bigger Southampton has 5. It just shows that normal decency does not allow traders to scam their customers of their money. Air source heat pumps in the UK are a complete joke. Poland with much better-insulated homes (and cooler, but drier winters) is very, very slowly implementing those ideas. Despite grants - gas or coal are just simpler, and easier. Heat pumps require the entire house project designed to be designed from scratch, it cannot be a successful upgrade.

[@markgilder9990]

If you are buying a ASHP monoblock system, you do not need to be F gas registered as the ASHP comes pregassed and the only connections you need to make are for the flow and return for the central heating and hot water cylinder, plus electrics. Check out the LG THERMA V R32 Monobloc S

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

I couldn't find a decent HP system installer or plumber, so i designed, sized, installed and commissioned my own ASHP system, for a 5 bed detached property. UFH upstairs and downstairs. It's my sole source of central heating and hot water generation. It works beautifully, efficiently....and is quite as a mouse. In my opinion, domestic ASHP systems can be very complex, and every home is unique, in terms of size, climate and demand profile. Plumbers and installers need to learn how to "Engineer" the system, prior to installing these systems. Homeowners also need to understand what they are getting, the cost involved, and how to maintain the system.

[@evthompson2620]

I have a new bungalow with an ASAP. Underfloor heating with a Daikin pump. It's efficiency is dreadful . It doesn't meet the demand of a tiny well insulated bungalow and Daiken are hopeless. They won't meet their responsibilities . I have had two independent engineers to look the system no one can get the efficiency any better. At best a Daiken unit only has a COP of 2. Might as well burn money bill for 35 days was 425 with rooms set on 18 C max. Any more and it's impossible to pay the bill. People on this new development are /have changed to oil, cheaper to run and the house is warm. The cost of installation is worth it. Be warned don't buy a heat pump. There are not enough well trained engineers. It's too complicated and burns money. They may work in Sweden but we are a long way from their standards . There must be some intervention to make sure the system works in UK. As things are ors a rip off.

[@lindsayruddock9141]

I don’t understand, all the way through the video you talk as though you had made a mistake, then at the last moment reveal that even on the most optimistic calculation, the payback period is 45 years, twice maybe three times the working life of the heat pump and possibly even exceeding the life expectancy of the installers. The final message seems to be ASHPs will cost you more but do it because it’s greener and it works which is OK and I accept that but it’s not the build-up throughout the video. The people I know who have successfully installed ASHP were tipped towards ASHP because of the silly numbers government grants. Government grants don’t reduce the cost, they simply spread the cost over the whole population. I have the same problem with solar, all my calculations show an unrealistic payback period. Technology is certain to have advanced so much in those kind of payback periods that the whole installation will be replaced before it has paid back. I would love to install ASHP and solar but can’t see how the 25k capital cost can ever be recovered. When I sell in five or ten years time, buyers will not increase their offers because the house has solar and ASHP, indeed they may see these as liabilities. Estate agents tell me house prices are mostly valued on what the call ‘kerb appeal’.

[@warren12pete]

Interesting video and I came to the same conclusion when i replaced my gas boiler a year ago. No doubt the technology will have improved by the time my boiler needs replacing again. I won't be buying an EV anytime soon. They are too expensive and the range is not good enough yet. I couldn't be driving around with the added stress of trying to find a working charge station and then having the long delay in waiting for the beast to charge up.

[@johnhunter4181]

What I would add is if you have Solar PV you are likely to be selling at least some for 10p/kWh - the same price as gas (if you have batteries it might be 20p off peak charging) Instead of selling it you could get at least 3500W of heat for the same cost as 950W with the boiler. British Gas prices start at £3k with the BUS grant and if I can find a sensible installer who doesn't demand I rip out all my rads and install underfloor heating it will def save money and pay off in a few years. Plus no pilot light or standing charge for gas and my old boiler is really noisy at night.

[@nixonsmateruby1]

It still costs about £200 a month to run a heat pump in winter? The best solution is to get solar, have an electric shower, electric tap for your dishes, and for less than £300 you can have air-air per room. I think air to water heat pumps will just be a fad that will pass, and in a few years they won't be able to give them away. Air to Air is the way forward, and much much cheaper. I live in the TOON and I think the way forward is to power combi boilers with electric but DC, and not gas. In fact I can see a lot of people switching to DC and moving from the grid.

[@richardevans560]

No, obviously not. We can generate our own gas you know, before North Sea gas that's exactly what did. If you believe windmills are going to provide constant and reliable electrical supplies when everything - ALL heating, lighting and transport - is electrical then you're very naive. Don't forget that as electric vehicles and heating becomes more popular the price for electricity will skyrocket

[@anthonywilson8998]

You said your rads were at 40deg..? Not in Winter? Gas prices need to be reduced to non extortionate rates. How much did you spend on insulation and draughtfproofing? My house would cost £30,000 due to solid walls. It works with gas T 70deg but no way with heat pump at 40deg with your rads so low you will run your boiler all the time and nort reach room temp. It’s not realistic to have it on all the time.