Should we pray to the saints?

[@davidcooke4384]

You should do a full length podcast on this. Particularly covering the transition from "Early" to "Medieval" Prayers to saints. Just IMO.

[@jkp7096]

Thanks. Helpful explanation

[@SantaFe19484]

The only difference between worship and veneration is that the former comes from Anglo-Saxon origin and the latter is Latin.

[@shepherdessinthefray]

I hope I don't seem like a creeper lol, I am just happy to have stumbled upon an interesting, informative, thoughtful LCMS channel. And just want to give a big thumbs up and encouragement that I hope you get to continue doing these videos more often. As an LCMS myself who reads theology and philosophy for fun, it is not easy to find people in real life to discuss such things lol. KZbin and podcasts are going to have to be one of my outlets until that changes. XD

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Hah! No, I don't think you're a creeper. I appreciate the comments. I will continue to do these, and I also have a podcast which I have been hosting for over 5 years now. Unfortunately, I've been without a show for a few weeks since we had flooding in the church, but next week things should be back to normal. Thanks for checking out the content!

[@DrJordanBCooper]

What area are you in by the way? I may know some people in your area that I can connect you with.

[@shepherdessinthefray]

Jordan Cooper Near Ashland WI

[@DrJordanBCooper]

I don't know if it is anywhere near you, but I have a friend who is a pastor in Fayetteville, NC.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Same situation here.

[@windowsoflife]

I’ve just recently found your channel and appreciate your ministry. I bought several of your books after watching you presentation of participation in Christ, theosis, etc. Thanks! As an Anglican priest, trying to make sense of the reality of the communion of the saints, and how that plays out, I offer a few thoughts that I’ve found helpful. Throughout the Psalms, for example, Psalm 103:20-22, addresses angles and all the gravely host, to praise the Lord. The Doxology does the same thing. Rev. 8:3-5 provides a vision of the heavenly intercession among the saints, the whole apocalyptic letter proclaims the unification of heaven and earth in Christ… open heaven, and so forth. Other examples of addressing the company of heaven are Rev. 12:12 and 18:20. I’m not trying to make a definitive case for invocation of “ all the company of heaven,” but I see the connections in these passages. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living becomes a basis, as you well know, for the practice. Jesus illustrates this in his transfiguration, speaking to Moses and Elijah. Another passage is Hebrews 12:22-24, “But you HAVE come to Mount Zion…” describing the angels, the church of the first born, the spirits of righteous men… . This scene is running in the background of our (Anglican) Eucharistic liturgy. The realized eschatology of Ephesians and Colossians go on to support our place in Christ, seated in heavenly places. As I ponder these and many other passages, I can see why the Church carried their prayer to the logical conclusion. All prayer is IN Christ, our intercessor, and we participate in this collective, cosmic intercession.

[@giannihatzianmevris1861]

Praying to Mary & the Saints is unbiblical! There's a difference between asking family or church friends to pray for you, (which by the way doesn't mean that those people you've asked to pray have more power or authority than you, but that if more people join in, more petitions are heard at the throne of God) and there's a difference with speaking to dead people! Jesus is both Mediator & Intercessor. If Jesus is sufficient for both those roles then why do we need to pray to Mary or one of the saints, who by the way, are dead! By praying To them, we are taking the attributes of God and placing them on mere humans! If the word of God tells us to come to Him directly, then why do we need to pray to anyone else??? Take a look at the following scriptural references: Romans 8:34 [34]Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes INTERCESSION for us. Hebrews 4:14-16 [14]Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. [15]For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16]Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. 1 Timothy 2:5 [5]For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, Acts 4:12 [12]Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Jeremiah 29:12-13 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.

[@lermadaniel]

Hello Pastor Cooper, will you ever make a video discussing the Lutheran view of Communion?

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Daniel Lerma Yes, I'm planning on it.

[@lermadaniel]

Thank you, sir.

[@balanjayf9368]

Mr. Cooper is misunderstanding the distinction between veneration and worship. Sacrifice is the only thing which constitutes worship. There were early heretics who offered instance to Mary, etc., but they were just that, heretics.

[@Flame1500]

What’s your thoughts on the Hail Mary / Ave Maria?

[@MK-qu6xs]

Pr. Cooper, do the Fathers who advocate praying to the saints offer any biblical citations or exegetical warrant for the practice? Also, since the Virgin Mary came up so many times in this video, what do you make of the Semper Virgo clause in the Formula of Concord? Thanks as always.

[@richardsaintjohn8391]

98 percent of the saints in heaven were still alive and most yet to be born. How people expect that to be in the New Testament blow's my mind.

[@SilouanSea]

That prayer is not always worship is clear in the Psalms that address the heavenly host, Psalm 103, and after the resurrection of Christ this same heavenly host addressed when we pray Psalm 103 includes departed saints, as Revelation makes clear. Revelation also shows these same heavenly hosts holding up bowls full of incense which contains the prayers of the church on earth, showing how the departed saints operate as intercessors, mediating the petitions. So, yes, prayers to the saints is Biblical, Apostolic and regularly practiced in every age of the Church. Also among the Orthodox the distinction between veneration and worship is well understood among the laity. It's actually Protestants who don't get it.

[@ImCarolB]

As well, we need no intermediary between us and God. My feeling is one that you don't bring up, that as the church spread into pagan areas of Europe, the cultural beliefs held on to the "need" for a mother goddess and gods that addressed specific areas of life. Veneration of Mary and various saints morphed into substitutes for those pagan deities; thus we end up with "patron saints" who are prayed to according to their alleged powers to deal with certain situations.

[@BrennaButcher]

I’m guessing that you’ve never asking anyone to pray for you?

[@KnightFel]

@@BrennaButchernot the same thing. Such a tired argument. The saints are dead and in heaven living in glory worshiping God. They are not worried about all the sorrow here on earth. We are commanded to pray for each other, but we are also commanded and not reach out to the dead, even though they are spiritually alive, either in hell or heaven, doesn’t matter. It’s a man made tradition.

[@ronobvious1785]

Liked the content but might be worth a redo indoors. That wind kills your voice at times.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Ron Obvious I know. I have no office right now so I'm going with what I can.

[@shepherdessinthefray]

Or he could get one of those fuzzy microphone wind-muffler things XD

[@josueinhan8436]

Certíssimo! Mas por favor, faça um vídeo longo e detalhado cobrindo toda essa questão. Certamente será muito importante e útil. Obrigado

[@jupiterinaries6150]

Yes indeed. Praying in the Bible is always to God. Jesus did talk to two OT "saints" at the Transfiguration but we can't conclude that he was praying to them.

[@here_we_go_again2571]

The Apostles wanted to set up a stone altar at the spot to commemorate the event.

[@etheretherether]

@@here_we_go_again2571 Lol the random line break made me try to read that like a haiku.

[@david_porthouse]

But you never say what prayers we should be saying instead! There are quite a few prayers in the Bible which could usefully be set up on a spreadsheet, printed off, laminated and left around the church for the use of visitors. I have just bought a laminator for £30 and my first prayers are the Litany of Loreto and the Litany of the Saints. I can keep these waterproof plasticised prayers in the lower boot of my car and get them out whenever I visit a strange church. No doubt you have other ideas, but you never tell us what they are. Elsewhere I have put up a “Know your psalms” posting which I will add here if asked. It involves cycling round the psalms in order once a year to get to know them. Why don’t Protestants produce this sort of thing? You could set up a selection of psalms on a spreadsheet, print them as PDFs, distribute them for free and invite people to leave laminates in church. Whingeing on about what the Catholics get up to doesn’t impress.

[@user-to2bb3si3y]

The catholic position is that they dont pray to the saints but honor them in asking for intercession. So even though the saints are mentioned it is prayer to God. So how do you answer that?

[@drewmann856]

It's a distinction without a difference, effectively.

[@tomsdigest]

I think Dr. Cooper is accurate in pointing out the problematic nature of how an early tradition, which may perhaps be theologically justified, metastasized into a bunch of folk-superstitious nonsense. Case in point, some recent poll I saw indicated that Jesus Christ was the 6th most popular "saint" for intercessions in Italy. Also, while we ask friends and family to pray for us, we don't make and venerate statues of them, nor do we sing hymns and akathists in their honor, etc. No way Joe McPeasant understands the difference between dulia, hyperdulia and latria... so in practice, the highfalutin theological types can have the truth and say "hey, we don't technically violate doctrine on paper," while the hoi polloi can have their "truthiness" mixed with fables, and to call this arrangement into account is to be accused of "rationalism," "modernism" or "antiquarianism."

[@here_we_go_again2571]

@@tomsdigest Well said. The average "McPeasant" would not note the difference. Yet, there are Marian Apparitions in diverse places in the world and people believe these come from God.

[@hjc1402]

So to clarify, if we do just a quick out loud “st Augustine pray for us, st Mary pray for us” is that wrong or acceptable, as a Lutheran, like the early church? Not trying to pray in the spirit like unto the Lord, but just an out loud request that may go up to them asking for their intercession

[@BibleLovingLutheran]

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ. (Sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption) The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522) [She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531) One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521) Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529) It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527) She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522) Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chaps 1-4, 1539) A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .(That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, 1523) Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . . When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom. (That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, 1523) Anyone have something else to prove differently? Directs statements by Luther and not someone trying to contradict what Luther has spoken on? Please share if you do. Richard Bolland Daniel A. Hinton Martin Luther kept to Catholic doctrine about Mary on this point. The “brothers and sisters” referred to in Scripture are kinsfolk, not siblings. Only recent sects and cults originating in the seventeenth century and later fail to esteem the perpetual virginity of Mary. They are ignorant or heedless of apostolic tradition, which they have lost and deviate from substantially.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Lutherans still sing the magnificat in our liturgy, especially in Advent.

[@billgrumling6192]

I might just say this I am not sure in the first part you are teaching the right thing the union of the church in heaven and on the Earth is the same exact teaching as the Mormons an d was also taught by early gonostics

[@BibleLovingLutheran]

This is scary ‘If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins “you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory.” Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if - and mark well what I say - if you say the Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins.’ -St. Louis Marie de Montfort (Secret of the Rosary)

[@Mygoalwogel]

How devoutly does it need to be to work?

[@richardsaintjohn8391]

Adiaphora. Hope I spelled it right? Who gives a pint of Ale? If it helps you in your walk of faith.....say your rosary or novena. If it gets your knickers in a knot don't do it. Live and let live. It's not dogma. Luther and Philip did it. It doesn't take away from Lutheran faith in it's original state. It was later with reform, Calvinists, purtitan nonsense that has still affected the American Lutheran heritage.

[@gorequillnachovidal]

Hmm... kind of a weird double standard here. On one hand you say that no where in the bible does it say to pray to anyone but God. But then in the same video you say you only believe in sola scriptura . . . which in the bible nowhere at all does it say this to be the case. In fact if you take the Gospel of Matthew to be true, then there are quite a few things referred to in there that are not in scripture and come from ORAL tradition. So is the fact that it is not in scripture good enough reason or not? Sola scriptura is like scientism: Example: Scientism - the only thing is true is scientific fact. Well, what repeatable and empiric scientific tests have to done to prove that? We know both judaism and early christianity had an oral tradition. Now, the current pope is a garbage marxist. But, the early church fathers and early christian community are nothing that should be ignored...who do you think chose X books to be in the New Testament???

[@mikebaker2436]

Pr Cooper has done numerous in depth podcasts and articles on textual criticism, Sola Scriptura, and church tradition from a Lutheran perspective. His academic background is in historical scholasticism. It's clear from your rhetoric that you haven't heard his full position on this tangential issue at the time of your above post.

[@gorequillnachovidal]

I don't really need to know everything he has ever said. But I am sure his phylacteries are very wide and his tassels are very long. I am saying that his reason for not praying to saints is that it is not in the scriptures....but sola scriptura is not in the scriptures. Doesn't seem like it not being in the bible is a good reason if you contradict that viewpoint in the same video. Do you know who else believed in sola scriptura? the Sadducees

[@andrewjenson1918]

We are told in II Timothy (3:16-17) that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Christ Himself used scripture to teach and correct, as did St. Paul. Tradition is nice, but it can be in error, unlike scripture which is the Word of God, and thus can be the only source of true doctrine and Christian truth. Sure, the phrase "sola scriptura" isn't in the Bible, but neither is the word Trinity (or the phrase Triune God, from what I can see). Just because the phrase/word isn't in there doesn't mean it isn't taught. One thing that certainly is in scripture is this, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No one cometh unto the Father, but by me." I'm not sure how that leaves room for prayers to saints. We can certainly pray for each other, but we bring those prayers to the Father, just as Christ did.

[@mikebaker2436]

GoreQuill NachoVidal Sola Scriptura is not "solo scriptura". Lutherans do not exclude tradition or the church but argue against its dogmatic primacy when it contradicts scripture or speaks beyond it. Your first argument is a strawman of the Lutheran position. Secondly, the Sadducces also believed in monotheism, prayer and good works but that doesn't inherently invalidate those practices just because the Sadducces supported them. Your argument is invalidated as an ad homonim fallacy.

[@JP-rf8rr]

"But then in the same video you say you only believe in sola scriptura . . . which in the bible nowhere at all" cop 1: alright I got the statement from the eyewitness cop 2: and I got the statement from the victim's mother who is on the other side of the country cop 1: ... why??? cop 2: to tell us what happened cop 1: I just talked to an eyewitness! cop 2: did the eye witness say we should take her word over the victims distant mother? cop 1: she didn't need to, its logically obvious.

[@julian65886]

Sola Scriptural works for reformers because they were 1500 years late to the party. You guys have no choice, but to ignore Tradition. Lastly God does not demand prayer.

[@julian65886]

The Bible was also written by imperfect men. This is where fundamentalists get it wrong. The OT is a great book with a lot of barbaric components and these areas are clearly not the work of God.

[@jeffhein7275]

Yay! Strawmen!!

[@spitfiremase]

@@julian65886 cringe. the it is part of God's revelation to man and calling it 'barbaric' does not make it not from God

[@julian65886]

@@spitfiremase God cannot be call barbaric. God is supposed to be perfect.

[@julian65886]

Worshiping a book as you do is worse than honoring the saints.

[@JP-rf8rr]

J. García We don't worship a book. If we did we wouldn't let it touch the ground or hold it with our left hands like how Muslims treat their Quran. Muslims think the Quran is the eternal word of God. Protestants think Jesus is the eternal word of God, we just think the bible is the only reliable source of him and his teachings.

[@ravenchan8041]

May God bless you, you have hatred in your heart.