Should You Run an Auto Block With a Safeguard? Response from Mad Rock

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[@platinumpursuitoutdoors]

I like the concerns for safety and exposure. Also, thx for taking the extra time to reach out to the manufacturer.

[@madhuntsadventures]

You got it! I learned from this and I plan to do more research on any safety advice going forward. Thanks for the support as always!

[@HuntingFarmerOfficial]

Good job taking a deep dive into this concern. You do your research and I can appreciate that. 👍

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thank you, Dave. I always appreciate your support. 🤜🏼

[@trxe420]

You are welcome! I want to thank you for looking into this for us, I could never find an answer to this question other than it wasn't recommended. I really wanted to know why though and I finally have my answer. I can see their reasoning for why to not use an autoblock, but I also would say that for me it is not a concern that it will get jammed into the device and even if it did I would rather be hanging from a tree stuck then on the ground with an injury. I tried the prussic above the device and it is pretty much impossible for me to do that and feel like I have control while descending. So I am going to use the autoblock method. Thank you so much for looking into this, your concern for safety and your attention to detail are why I subscribe!

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thank you for the feedback and the support, Tommy. It's truly appreciated! As long as we're all paying attention to what we're doing and practicing with our gear (and taking safety seriously), I think the auto block method works just fine even though it isn't recommended by Mad Rock. 👍🏼

[@WoodHuntingSaddles]

Great video… another simple solution to tending the prusik when it’s above the Madrock, is to buy an s biner, and tie some cheap paracord to it so that you can snap it above the prusik and hold the paracord in your lever hand. This allows your entire hand to man the safeguard handle and the s biner will act like a tender and help bring the prusik down.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Great idea, Wood Hunting Saddles! I love it! Thanks for the tip. 👍🏼Thanks for watching! I appreciate it.

[@youtoober87]

@@madhuntsadventures Is there a video of this suggestion? If not, Manhunts, do you plan to try it?

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@youtoober87 Thanks for asking, youtoober87. I have added it to my list of video ideas but I'm not sure how soon I can get to it. 👍🏼

[@WoodHuntingSaddles]

We just posted a video on our page showing this method if you are interested. It works really well

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@WoodHuntingSaddles Thank you! I'll check it out...

[@andrewpica2473]

Great video!! I really appreciate the safety concern and the info you share with us!! I also spoke on the phone with a Madrock tech and he said exactly what you mentioned but he also added a schwabisch knot if the prusik wont move freely. So I personally tried that and it works great. I put it above my madrock while I’m on the ground and when I pull line through the maxrock while ascending it pushes the schwabisch knot up the rope a lot easier then a prusik (just my personal opinion). But as always thank you for these types of videos!

[@madhuntsadventures]

Awesome feedback, Andrew! Thank you for sharing your tried and tested method. Sounds like it works great. 👍🏼

[@PaulSmithMusicMD]

Thank you for this demo of the back-up knot above the Safeguard. Other then for legal reasons, what you read from Mad Rock's reply to you was a little unclear as to WHY they don't recommend backing up below the Safeguard. It might be helpful to further explain that if a knot, prussic or otherwise, were to come from below into the Safeguards with enough force and weight, there is the potential of damaging the device internally, causing it to fail altogether. Understanding this would help clear up why you felt you could safely continue with the back-up the way you have been doing, with keeping the back-up knot so far from the Safeguard. Again thanks so much for these great videos. They have helped me.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Hey, Paul! Thank you for the reply and feedback. Upon further discussion with a few other people I learned that the Safeguard device, under a fall, needs to allow some of the rope to feed into the device to function properly. There concern, from my understanding, doesn't have anything to do with the auto block possibly feeding back into the device. It may be somewhat of a concern but not the primary concern. Placing the hitch/backup above the device allows the rope to feed into the Safeguard properly under a fall. With that being said, I have switched to running my backup above the device. I need to upload a followup video explaining all of this but haven't had a chance yet. Thank you for watching!

[@PaulSmithMusicMD]

Thank you so much for this updated information. I look forward to the upcoming video. I too will be backing up my device above the Safeguard using a prusik knot and a small carabiner to tend the knot. It will take some practice but I feel it's worth the effort.

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@PaulSmithMusicMD There are actually much better hitches to use when backing up your device. The prusik hitch is hard to break after a load has been in it. Robert, the owner of Wood Hunting Saddles taught me about the Cornell hitch. You should look into it as your primary hitch for backing up your device. Super easy to tie and works awesome. I'll be showing it in my follow-up video. 👍🏼

[@robertjay874]

Hi Matt I saw you posted a "short" saying you weren't backing up your Madrock this way anymore. Being new to saddle hunting I had watched this video and your previous backup video and thought this method worked great. As I understand it, if you have a problem and find yourself rapidly falling, the worry isn't getting the autoblock hitch sucked into the device. The worry is if you are rapidly falling the force of the autoblock grabbing the rope abruptly and stopping you would put excessive pressure on the pin inside the device and could cause it to break. My question is if you were already rapidly falling wouldn't that indicate the device had already had a problem (either operator error or failure) and the backup would be the only thing preventing you from hitting the ground? FYI I only use the autoblock on my linesman when descending. While hunting I tie it above. I tried the carabiner/paracord thing and it didn't work well for me.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Correct, Robert, my initial lack of understanding of the reason was incorrect and I found out about the device being damaged from backing it up below after posting that video. After learning that I made the short to make my first announcement about it. I'm planning to make a long-form video as soon as I finish perfecting my new system. I'm making my own sewn eye cord now and hope to test it soon. Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it. 👍🏼

[@knowsweat9228]

Nice video. I had struggled with the same issue. Then I tried 8mm rappel line and needed to try another system and found one I really like. Austrialpin, the company that likely made the buckles on your saddle, has a product called the Austrialpin fish. No moving parts so it is more quiet than the madrock and it works well with the 8mm rappel line. If you have a chance, give it a run. Still face the question of where to tie off the prusik, and like you, I find it easier to operate with my left hand on the lever and a right hand on the prusik knot. Great video. Thanks again!

[@madhuntsadventures]

Great feedback, Know Sweat! I'll have to look into the Austrialpin you mentioned. Thank you for watching! 👍🏼

[@tomnolan2186]

Good video. I'm with you Matt. If you had a longer auto block I could see that as a potential hazard with it getting caught in the madrock. But since you have a shorter one it would never get caught like you mentioned. Another good thing to possibly plan for would be how would you get down if you did get your rappel device stuck? It could be a possibility if you were running a longer auto block below your device. I currently don't use a back up with my gri gri plus but probably should.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thanks for the feedback, Tom. I have thought about how I'd get down if my Safeguard was broken or if I dropped it, etc. I plan to use a munter hitch with one of my carabiners. I think I'll make a video on that. Thanks for the thought. 👍🏼 Oh, and you do need to be backing up your gri gri. lol Don't take safety lightly, you have a beautiful family to get home to. 😉

[@tomnolan2186]

@@madhuntsadventures good point. I should be backing it up

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@tomnolan2186 ...funny thing, I learned about the auto block from YOU! 😂😂

[@asianboi08]

I’m using a singing rock sir for self repellent and found it to be very nice. I have never use the madrock before. Think you can review one of those singing rock sir?

[@paulcrave3112]

Is the term “Auto Block” used to describe a backup method or a specific type of cord used or a specific knot? It seems I’ve heard that term used in multiple ways.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Great question, Paul. I believe an "auto block" is describing the actual rope hitch. ...the type of tied hitch using a continuous loop (whether sewn or tied). That's my understanding.

[@chadreid1068]

Hey man I ALAWYS tie a stopper knot about 6 in. behind my mad rock in case it slips

[@trxe420]

I do this too when I am hunting height, even when using just a tether, but the autoblock I am using while I rappel. I use a stopper knot too when just using a tether and ropeman and also I have a stopper knot on my lineman. Good tip!

[@madhuntsadventures]

Awesome, Chad! I know of other guys who do that as well and I think that is a great safety practice to incorporate. 👍🏼

[@tonynorman8207]

Great review and thank you for your time. Looks like a good saddle.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thanks for the comment, Tony! Was this meant for a saddle review video?

[@tonynorman8207]

@@madhuntsadventures Yes it is, my fault, thanks.

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@tonynorman8207 👍🏼

[@emmasmomma511]

As always awesome job with everyrhing,especially this.keep it up

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thank you very much, Jackie! I appreciate the support. 👍🏼

[@n2trkys18]

Using a second point of attachment when using a saddle as a stand is paramount for safety, as well. Unfortunately, most seem to promote only one point of attachment and not using a safety at all.

[@HunterOlmstead-q9u]

So your autoblock below the madrock, your only hooked to one lineman loop?

[@timwaldroup9654]

I run one when I remember to put it on...

[@madhuntsadventures]

Glad to hear it, Tim! I feel much safer having it on so I never really forget. Thanks for the feedback!

[@cdp50359]

Thanks for your safety concern.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thank you, C Price! Always appreciate the support.

[@PBAdventures146]

Have you heard of any fatalities from using Saddles or These climbing methods for saddle hunting? I've only heard of one where the guy was rather large and got caught upside down and couldn't turn back around. But that's the only one that I've heard of.

[@madhuntsadventures]

That's the only one I know of as well. According to the article I read, a squirrel hunter heard him calling for help and when he got there he was upright and not upside down but then passed out and fell upside down. Either way, I think it's important that we all start pushing safety practices. 👍🏼

[@brianscustomcanvas1911]

I run my swabish below my madrock on a second shorter bridge to keep it centered. The swabish acts like your brake hand anyways. And if you panic on safeguard the swabish will auto lock as soon as you let go. Been using this set up for years. I also use on SRT through a pully on my rope grab ascender. But thats me and my risk. As soon as your feet leave the ground, thats all you and what you feel is your saftey I take no responsibility on anyone else just my owne. Just wanted to echo you.

[@madhuntsadventures]

You nailed it with "but that's me and my risk. As soon as your feet leave the ground, that's all you and what you feel is your safety..." I don't recommend other guys do what your doing but if you know the risks and choose to do it, well then that is up to you. I feel safer backing up above the device (now) but I'm glad guys are at least backing up their systems! 👍🏼

[@thefullaj]

I run a gri-gri, for now, and only tie a knot when I need to go hands free (hunting, setting/removing platform, etc.) Those style of devices are fairly redundant on rappel, staying within recommended rope diameters and keeping hands on the break strand of course. Once winter goes away I'll be addressing the safety concerns more from transition of mountain guiding and climbing skills to saddle hunting. Redundancy is good but some times you can be too redundant, we are after all hanging from one rope.

[@madhuntsadventures]

Yeah safety is number one but doing it correctly is important. According to Mad Rock, nothing should be below the device and only above it. Anything below the device will stop it from functioning properly in a fall. 👍🏼

[@thefullaj]

@@madhuntsadventures I’m going to give them a call and speak with them as well, given the context of the use a knot should know create a failure in the system.

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@thefullaj Yeah I was only referring to putting a hitch below the device. I'm not sure about a knot other than what they recommended. I would think a knot or a hitch below the device would have the same impact on it but I'm not a professional so I'm not sure. 😂 Mad Rock wouldn't entertain any conversation on it with me so hopefully you can get more info. 👍🏼

[@madhuntsadventures]

@@thefullaj Make sure you let me know what they say. I'd love to know. 👍🏼

[@thefullaj]

@@madhuntsadventures I didn’t get much farther either; the person I spoke with did say they their response for saddle hunting is more of a legal and liability based one than application. I ran a climbing scenario by them that involved knots on the break strand and they said their device would work in that specific scenario. I’ll get my hands on one and record some content.

[@tylerparker3024]

Its not about the auto block interfereing with the safegaurd its about the safegaurd is going to tend the auto block if it fails and the rope is pulling straight through it the knot will never catch

[@paulcrave3112]

I’ll give you a thumbs up.

[@madhuntsadventures]

I appreciate it, Paul! 👍🏼

[@sct1464]

I appreciate the safety aspect of your videos. This one sticking stuff is definately a neat hunting tool but all our loved ones want us to come home after every hunt and having backups is a good practice. Thanks for sharing your experience

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thank you, Sct146! I appreciate that very much. Getting home each night is the most important thing so safety shouldn't be compromised. 👍🏼

[@tylerparker3024]

You just need a tender for the prusik so you dont have to do it with your hand.. it does make zero sense to put it below the device.

[@gregmccloughan2429]

I run mine below the madrock

[@bkbowhunter1]

Im with you i tie my auto block below the mad rock 👍👍

[@madhuntsadventures]

Thanks for watching, Brian! Thanks also for the feedback. It isn't recommended by Mad Rock but I feel completely safe running it. 👍🏼