Should You Warm Up Your Diesel Before Driving Off?

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[@TruckMaster]

Link to buy LHG Diesel Heaters Click here 👉 thedieseldudes.com/search?q=lhg

[@jasonmeyer6956]

@truckmaster No option for the DURAMAX?

[@stephenmiller5023]

As a Diesel mechanic myself from 1980 to 1991 at a Cat dealership we had the opportunity to talk to a bunch of drivers from all over the country and during engine overhaul time could tell who took time to properly warm up their equipment & who didn’t. “Wet stacking “ from idling long periods in cold weather causes all sorts of havoc , and back then trucks had almost Zero Emissions equipment and most were not electronic injection until very late ‘80’s and then got more common from then on . I can only imagine how much worse things have gotten now . I love my ‘02 LB-7 here in Southern California as we don’t have to deal with any sub zero temps and only recently in my area have we had any mid 30 degree mornings . I have never had to plug in my factory block heater , but I do let my truck idle long enough to get alternator output up to full voltage output & make sure I’ve got the engine running with good oil pressure & as smooth an idle as it has when warmed up before putting it in gear & then taking it easy for first mile or so before heading onto freeway. That rig of mine has one HELL of a heater in it still to this day and in only a mile or two of freeway driving the whole crew cab is toasty warm . Thanks Josh for posting this one and sharing all you do . C-ya Brotha, hopefully winter is kind to you guys in your neck of the woods this winter . 🤞

[@LyonGarage]

What I've noticed is that my LBZ is super sluggish and shifts super slowly if I don't let it warm up for a little bit before taking off.

[@dustinryan9671]

Same here my LBZ is retarded for about 10 minutes until it warms up driving.

[@baylife9964]

Yup same here

[@wippywoppie123]

Same

[@CopeCrownCrums]

Same

[@TracyH007]

LB7 Same.

[@ericluitjens4256]

Just drive slow the first few minutes until the engine gets up to temp. Keep it under 1500 RPM. Engine and trans warms up quicker than just letting it idle.

[@whiskeytango9769]

I would let it warm up until there is good oil pressure and maybe 1-2 minutes. Then I would drive slowly and not push it until it's fully warmed up. I live in Canada and have dealt with this for 40 years. Running the engine with a load warms things up much faster than simply idling. It's also better for the drivetrain.

[@user-ex4fk2co7s]

This is the answer! You want the engine warmed up as quickly as possible and the only way to do that is to put some load on it.

[@ronaldbabbitt6318]

I never owed a diesel before I bought my lmm over five years ago and didn't learn about (waiting to start) (plugging in cold temperatures) (waiting for TCM) and had to replace a glow plug. 3yrs ago. Since then I've installed a lift pump Air Dog 4G 165gph, HSP cold air intake, exc and my Duramax is Awesome with help from Truck Master's excellent videos! TY 😊 ⚒️🇺🇲

[@wayawolf1967]

Mine goes into reverse before the starter stops spinning. LOL 427,xxx miles I got out of that LMM before the crank sheared on I-75. Still drove it 10 more miles to a T/A truck stop to call a wrecker. After rebuild it holds 80 + lbs of oil pressure at start up at 20 degrees outside. If its colder than 20 degrees I plug up the block heater. A factory water jacket block heater is all you need.

[@j_rainsgoat3929]

Why'd the crank shear?

[@MurkleQ]

​@@j_rainsgoat3929he put it strait into reverse on the highway 😂

[@j_rainsgoat3929]

@@MurkleQ I threw my car into reverse then park one time on my 1989 Buick Park Ave driving 50mph by accident locked up the front tires started skidding. I dropped back into drive and no problem. That car was a tank.

[@chase5896]

Love seeing a vid on this and I watched the previous one and it seemed like I should fire it up and drive it basically. Thanks for the info! These vids really help as my dad has a 6.7 powerstroke and we love to take care of it in the best possible way

[@DC-jj4zj]

i live in canada where it gets to -60c in winter for usually a couple weeks. oil is like molasses at that temp which mean that if you put a load on that motor then your going to grenade it even with a block heater. high idle kicks on when the truck is idling in park even after its been warmed up at those temps. ill stick to my 20-30 min warm ups unless its warmer then -10c, then ill do 10 mins until above 0

[@mrglock2313]

If I lived where you do, my truck would be in a heated garage. I saw -15 where I live this year.. I keep my garage around 50 degrees in the winter.

[@DC-jj4zj]

@@mrglock2313 honestly, sometimes I’ll idle it all night long with a cat tarp around it beside my trailer. A person needs that truck going first thing in the morning if you want to make it to the line and put some pipe in the dirt. I also work in the middle of nowhere

[@mrglock2313]

@@DC-jj4zj nice. I live in the middle of nowhere 😂 I will keep my truck outside also and keep it plugged in. Take care

[@bryanginder5903]

Have always let all my diesel trucks and equipment sit and warm up in the winter even in summer just not as long, never have had any trouble with any of the engines. Northwest Wi.

[@f.stopperrmedia1606]

But that's what theyre saying, idling the truck for 20-30 minutes is the worst possible scenario for the truck, its right in the video. You only need a few minutes to get the oil moving, then you start driving. Anything past that, idling will not fully warm your engine. So it will be idling cold for that whole time, you need to get to operating temp quick once that oil is moving.

[@ronthompson2366]

Great information and fantastic product. I am glad you showed a generator. Since you spoke about "wet stacking". A very common issue with generator operation not running at a proper load. Very good information about a product. That looks to be a valuable asset for diesel trucks. Probably a bit on the costly side. However if it works as well as this showed. It will save you money in the longevity of your trucks engine. 😎👍

[@WBOS72]

Use the factory fast idle for warming it up.

[@billfincher8519]

Great intell. 03 D/max i allow it to run 10-15 minutes cold then drive. Before shutdown I let it idle a few minutes. 370K miles been good.

[@RLeeErmy]

This is great a week after sub-Zero temps in Nebraska now that it is supposed to be in the 60s on Wednesday!😅 Thanks for another great video! Those LHG heaters look awesome! Had to add that.

[@ontariocashcropfarmer4955]

I use a Webasto coolant heater on my 02 Duramax Works awesome have never had an issue warm engine warm cab😎🤠

[@Tropicalfrooploops]

I usually wait a minute after starting up and go. I’ll usually slow roll leaving home because my transmission is bumpy in the morning

[@husbandfathergrandfatherfriend]

aways had block heater always plug in 30dgr and below, was always on volunteer fire department unplugged and went never had a problem

[@cory9088]

Most people probably don't know this but, on the duramax with the elevated idle feature. It does three things. It ramps the speed up, it puts the transmission into two gears at once and it closes up the turbo to help keep the heat in. That's why they warm up so fast.

[@henryjeanor1362]

Exactly, my LML has elevated idle, which seems like it warms up the engine faster than just driving it slowly out to the highway. I still think that the high rpm is enough to “get the engine going” even at idle. To be honest, i don’t even worry about plugging it in until it’s colder than 10 degrees anyways (I live up north)

[@leebuck180]

no wonder the Duramax gets sorry MPG's.

[@henryjeanor1362]

@@leebuck180 even the best generators get zero miles to the gallon, brother

[@ex3494]

What years offer the elevated engine idle and how do you get it to work? Never heard about that before or even seen anything about till now. Because the dealership never informed me that it was a feature

[@cory9088]

@@ex3494 07 to the present. You can usually turn it on with the button that you use to set up your personalization setting. That of course depends on the year. If you have a 14 to the present, using the touch screen you go into comfort and climate menu and then check the box next to rapid heat or elevated idle. If you have and older model prior to 14, and its a base model without the buttons on the dash then I believe you have to hold the accelerator to the floor and pump the brake pedal 3 times. You this with the key on, engine off.

[@stretchpropertymaintenance2561]

Remote start is an awesome thing. The truck gets warm while I stay warm.

[@robertjohnson6719]

I have a 2015 Duramax. Warm up is essential. You always have time. Im a volunteer Fire chief im 10 miles from the station when i get a call i put slippers on and start my truck when ive dressed its warm enough to mostlyclear the windshield. The converter locks first try. Normally i give it 15 minutes. My old one made 400000 miles. This one has 175000

[@CranesMakeGains]

Remote start runs for 10 min, I start it 10 min before I have to leave for work. Usually get in the truck 1-2min before it shuts off and go to work

[@tomc8115]

Same, but about 5 min wait since it doesn't often get very cold in Texas. Then I don't push the engine until it gets fully up to temp.

[@michaelstevens3002]

07 LBZ …….I realize this is slightly off topic but no mention of the significance of using the factory supplied winter cover over the front grille during cold weather? My truck doesn’t even run at 200 degrees when the outside temp is below 50 degrees without the top cover. I also find that winter cover keeps the engine bay cleaner as well. On cold starts, My preference is to let truck idle a minute or two until the glow plugs turn off and the voltage moves to the middle of the gauge ( 14v). My truck also has a bug that pops an under boost CEL unless it warms up a few minutes before driving away. Truck is mostly stock with Garrett stage 1 turbo, PPE exhaust manifolds and up and down pipes and Airdog 100. Tows a 12k fifth wheel in the summer.

[@thatgreyplatty6315]

I warm my 07 cummins up till the coolant is between 80 and 100 degrees before I take off, Idles for a few minutes, then drive it easy till it gets to temp, usually about 15 minutes or so.

[@CaspianHorde]

When it was below freezing here in Texas, I had to replace my DEF tank, heater, and pump (all one unit).

[@johnmitchell98]

This is the first year I have had to plug in the block heater in my 09 lmm

[@Lfs1891]

Put a circulating coolent, wabasco heater on ur truck. I also put vehical in nutral for a min or two , to help transmission warm up also.

[@mattnewcomb1163]

Wow that's some innovative equipment

[@atotheronawesome3713]

Idk I’m not an expert but all I know is I feel a definite difference between letting her warm up and not you can feel it and when you let it warm up wen a little makes a world of difference.

[@kurthathaway4865]

My lml does some sort of high idle when it gets under like 50 or 60 degrees for a few minutes every single day. I let it do its thing and then take off when done. When it's in the teens or less, that's when I turn on the actual elevated idle on the DIC since it revs higher and give it 5 or 10 min. 10 degrees and into the negatives is plug in time when I'm at home. Otherwise, I cross my fingers and hope it cranks up.

[@adrianmunoz-bosquez9700]

Great informative video brother! ❤

[@leebuck180]

my mom's 2007.5 Ram Cummins with 5W-30 Rotella synthetic, she will start the truck, let it run a few minutes and then leave home, tooling along at 25-35 mph speed limit in town. the truck has reached operating temp by the time she is on the highway or the big road. for me if the temperature is in the 40's (yes, even 49F because it will get colder in the night) , i plug up my 2008 GMC LMM. i start the truck, let it run a few minutes to circulate the oil and fluilds then take off, i live beside a 55 mph secondary road. i have a drop cord with me and pug it up at work, i found out it DOES NOT like 25F.

[@user-pw5sg1qg5c]

Can you do a bit about repinning the ficm in the wifemax. Looking to AFO cam my lb7. Was wondering how ypu go about doing it

[@ng-ht1vx]

Having had a week of temps under -40, I have a few insights. On the tractor (rented, not mine) they had 10W40 oil in it. Oil drag on the engine components was so severe it was very difficult to get the engine over 50 rpm while trying to start. Tractor has a great block heater, but the block heater is useless if the engine oil turns to molasses. A magnetic heater on the bottom of the oil pan worked wonders. Until one fried. Lucky, there was a backup. Always keep 2 of them around as they like to give up at the most inopportune moments. Also, keeping the machine out of the wind did a lot to help. At -30C and below, everything sounds like it wants to break. Oil grade is a big thing it these types of cold. 15w40 and 10w40 do not like to allow the engine to start in the cold. 5w40 and 0w40 are better. However dad's 01 duramax appears to have really not liked the 0w40 oil we put in it. I appears that a bearing got eaten. I cut the filter open, and it's absolutely full of bronze. The previous filters was pretty much clean. It's doing the rattle clack music now. If it's -10C it sounds really good for a bit.

[@TreeFeller4Life]

When it’s cold outside I set the high idle my 06 mega cab 5.9 until it warms up. Even when it’s warm outside I don’t ever just hop in it and cranks it up and drive it, I allow the engine and trans do get to operating temp before I ever drive it. Zero blow by to date 238k miles on original bottom end 😅

[@budtackett8347]

my tdi uses 5w40 diesel ,idk if larger eng can use it for winter temps but worth researching .

[@jdatwood7086]

I’d like to see the same generator test performed with the heaters valved out to see how much EGT rise is a result of the added load of the heaters and how much is a result of the warmer coolant. My guess is most likely due to the 18hp each it consumes.

[@steelmill]

It's funny looking at those little diesels after working on locomotive engines for 20 yrs.Those old EMDs idle all night and day for days.

[@leebuck180]

...and the railroads NEVER change the oil unless major repair (on NS add oil only).

[@dwarfzerker8456]

I got 2016 lml and i plug mine in and has fass pump with heater probs i just installed and dont think the EPA kit would fit my truck if they made it fer a older duramax lol i got a york 210 compressor fer my onboard air in engine compartment in 2nd alternator slot

[@bigrvs3891]

I have a 02 gmc 2500 ...duramax you should see....I promise not wasting your time ..58 thousand actual Miles..it been in my shop all of it life....

[@j_rainsgoat3929]

What liquid does goes between stator and the fly wheel? Coolant is isolated by the heat exchanger?

[@javierarroyo9884]

Here in Phoenix Arizona we will never know what a cold start is unfortunately. 😢😂 We need the opposite we need something to keep them cool.

[@eduardomarroquin8466]

Sup brother can you do a video on how to wash your lb7 engine please

[@eltonhunter8314]

Well done.

[@SalvadorAviles408]

had a bad habit of just getting in the truck and speeding off to store on break time after it’s been sitting and cooled down one day I went to store started it back up and it was knocking I smoked my bearings to many short drives cold starts it never got chance to warm up

[@gunsho11b]

With my 3.0 Duramax (LZ0) I usually give it 2 to 3 minutes before putting it in gear. If I idle it longer it's simply to defrost the windshield as at times Im too lazy to scrape the ice off.

[@bieniek56]

My Father never warms his 2011 LML up even in -20. It currently has 240k on it, he bought it with zero miles, and never had an issue and that is all heavy pulling miles. We argue on warming it up but honestly he has proof that it doesn't hurt it and I don't have proof warming it up is safer.

[@ohnij3d221]

my 6.7 cummins doesnt really mind, i just make sure not to build any crazy boost before its 140f its either high idle with exhaust brake on, or drive it. both gives me about 500+f egts. otherwise it wont warm up at all

[@1cor12_]

Please define cold with an ambient temperature range.

[@vivillager]

Me, I'd let the truck idle for at least a minute or two, let the oil thin out a little, then drive gently, maintain low engine RPM, until the engine warm up, which doesn't take long for me since the only time I drive any of my diesels is with a trailer behind it. If I'm not towing, I'm driving my gasser.

[@kevinsanchez7452]

Do they have this for gas engines? Would be nice to recommend to my job we have a 6.2 super duty and it sucks having to jump in it when cold being a xlt no heated anything and vinyl seats

[@rogerm6069]

Josh I’m going to pick your brain. What about running the engine brake/ exhaust brake all the time. Does it keep turbo clean or not?

[@michaellevenduski7263]

What about our transmissions not warming up. Is that bad. Cause at high idle warm up on my lmm my trans warms up to 120+ in 20-30 min. It be 70 degrees if I left to quick. Is a cold trans bad to drive

[@ericjaquez4347]

So what I took from this video is that 3-5 min is plenty of idle time across the board to then start driving, personally I give it 5-7 ish minutes on my 04 HO 5.9. summer time as well as winter when its plugged in during the winter.

[@joesmoth2610]

Try sprinting in the dead of winter without stretching or warming up,engines feel the same

[@user-cg3qf4tz1h]

Hi just have a question I got a 2020 Chevy Silverado 2500hd and I want to put traction bar but all that I found is for short bed how I can measure to get one for long bed ?

[@micapeakrider]

Unless you happen to live right next to the freeway it's quite easy to drive at not much higher rpm than a fast idle for a couple miles, and it will warm up a lot faster when driving than sitting still. The easy driving also warms up the transmission.

[@hondadirtbikesrule]

Said it before and I’ll say it again, my truck doesn’t move until the elevated idle (altered timing, turbo loading, trans loading etc) is done. Come out in -30 to my engine and trans is 153f, warm cab and I go. Engine is doing 40% load in the warm up sequence, best case scenario

[@oldretireddude]

I wish KZbinrs would not talk about this in a one-size-fits-all conversation. Just don't beat on your truck until it warms up. I liked your guests comments, even though he's selling accessories he's being very level headed about it.

[@iviaverick52]

Yes you should, video done.

[@wolfeman2120]

I don't understand why there isn't a duramax kit. all they need to is to adapt it to mount where the 2nd alternator would be. They may even be able to use the GM alternator bracket. Then just hook up coolant hoses and electrics. Put a different belt on and away you go. They could make for the LBZ and LMM/LML pretty easy that way.

[@robm3357]

I have the Colorado 2.8 diesel You can let it warm up for an hr and it will not warm up. I jump in let it idle for a minute and drive very gently until the temperature gauge starts to move. There is no sense letting it sit and idle as it will not warm up without a load.

[@bounce12]

I have an lly duramax and it takes about 30 minutes to get heat enough to melt windshield ice. It’s my first diesel but I’m sure that’s not normal!! Also should I use the automatic hi idol or let it warm up on regular idol

[@grasscutter88]

I can let my cummins idle all day and the coolant needles isn't going to move until the truck does. what is cold though?

[@garyguyette9739]

Do you also live in the mitten?

[@BlakeRobison-jh3ft]

I just bought my first desial ne tips for me ne body

[@ronaldbabbitt6318]

Great answer if you can't plug in 👍

[@dannysavagedraftguru]

Something about this 6.0 that catches my eye it for sale ?

[@emerson2you]

Yes because the transmission seals need to be to be warm clutch bands cold oil it rough

[@user-hh6um1om1y]

That why some people I know run thiner oils during the winter

[@PndaS2k]

5w40 is what i switched to. It’s thinner at colder temperatures, once it’s warmed up it has the same viscosity as a 15w40.

[@alcatraz501]

The best thing you can do is start the truck wait a few mins and go idling till warm isn’t great for it

[@daviderickson6933]

My question is can you use this for a trans instead

[@TreeFeller4Life]

So essentially it stops the coolant flow to heat it up? Doesn’t that sound dangerous especially in a diesel engine? 😬

[@KWAHU93]

Yup low idle can starve the top end of oil

[@JamesDavis-rz2cq]

In low temps my 7.3 doesn't want to move for around 10 minutes.

[@R07ishere]

Would high idle be better to let the truck run 30 minutes when warming up? I know high idle is better for long periods is why I ask.

[@FarmerSteveO]

Personally, I have always waited until the engine gets to 100° without load, especially on engines with cast blocks and aluminum cylinder heads. IMO, aluminum cylinder heads and cast decks of blocks have significant differences in the time that they heat up in unison when cold until the equilibrium is met at the normal operating temperature. I still question if this did not contribute to some of the earlier models having trouble with head gaskets failing from people getting in a cold rig and instantly putting the hammer down in high compression diesel engines. Just my two cents!

[@isaacmiller9931]

is there stiff for a 6.0L powerstroke???

[@wantsanewvehicle]

I have not watched this video yet, and don't own a diesel truck. But, I drive school bus and sometimes I'm unlucky enough to have to drive a stinky old diesel bus :'(. They have block heaters, but we don't have the ability to plug them all in - especially the spare ones which is what I always get stuck using. It has not been under 0 degrees F this year much, but it's usually 10-25 in the morning I jump in and leave it in first gear as long as I can and just hold it at the floor for about half an hour until it finally warms up. By that time I'm at the school and it's just finally warm, and then it's a short drive back to the lot. Man, I sure hate diesel buses. Stinky, messy, loud, etc. Give me gas or propane!

[@brandonascroft4587]

is high idle considered "moving"

[@WhiteTrashMotorsports]

I try to let my oil temp come up to 100f in my 6.0 powerstroke before driving.

[@sketabug1259]

no duramax applications yet?

[@anthanydudek8273]

I know you have a biased opinion, but I’m curious. Between the Cummins and say the LLY. Which truck is your go to? I love second gen’s and don’t know if I want to go LLY duramax or Cummins yet. Not too sold.

[@TruckMaster]

I would rather go with a 5.9L Cummins like a 3rd Gen common rail with no emissions over a LLY any day.

[@user-hh1zx1ym7z]

That’s system works a lot like a braking system on older drilling rigs

[@jeremyst.george6711]

I want one on my idi

[@freddyhollingsworth5945]

Coworker inherited his Dad's 7,000 mile 03 F250 7.3, we'd get off work and he never let it warm up, even when it was -5 F, started it and on the interstate going 70 mph in less than 2 min, the on ramp is right beside the hospital when we get off at 6:45am..He drove it like this from 2008 to 2019 and traded it for a new F150 Ecoboost...He hated his Dad and hated the truck...he traded it off due to getting tired of diesel prices.. The F250 had 64,000 miles when he dumped it in 2019- never an issue...

[@KWAHU93]

Why is ur text have a line thru it

[@KWAHU93]

What a douche he traded the best ford truck for a eco boost 😂

[@stevie9361]

How much hp lost from it? Edit. Its almost 20 hp

I let my truck temps get to 100 all everything, oil, trans, and coolant before I take off

[@bdtaylor1979]

It doesn’t matter if it’s gas or diesel it doesn’t hurt the engine to start driving without letting the engine warm up first. The key is to take it easy until the engine gets warmed up. Driving it hard, hitting high rpm’s and things like that before the engine gets warmed up is what hurts the engine. If you live where it gets below freezing for days and weeks at a time then you can let it run a few minutes to make sure the oil is circulating but letting it idle to warm up for extended periods of time is a waste of fuel.

[@MichaelBoehme-rx4sn]

Can you buy it for gas?

[@BadBaltGuy]

Speaking of the reasons, things associated with and all things cold running,,,, if anyone has seen the huge 5th wheel battery power assist unit for big rigs and all the boasting about how it will lower the trucks emissions and increase its efficiency by taking load off of the engine? I mention that here because just like the damages and dangers of running diesel engines under their optimal temperatures,,,,, that system is going to destroy and gunk up every engine and every DPF system they use to test with. Just wait, but they'll never admit it once it happens.

[@mikecubes1642]

if your engine was not meant to run at 180 to 190 degrees then it would not have a thermostat in it. always warm up your engine a little before driving especially a diesel

[@leociesielski4154]

U have to let them warm up other wise they blow seals and u shouldn’t let your truck hit high idea after 20 secs of run time just destroying the motor

[@travissmith1455]

Can you put that on a gas vehicle

[@seavisions]

Off topic. But does anyone have a good transmission shop they would recommend for a good 68rfe rebuild here in Michigan? I am in the thumb. But I am willing to go into metro Detroit for a good transmission guy. Thanks in advance good sirs.

[@TruckMaster]

D N R Customs

[@seavisions]

@TruckMaster Thank you good sir! Much appreciated!

[@seavisions]

My 2011 ram 3500 6.7 cummins lost all gears on I 94 a few months back. Dropped the pan. All looked fine. But I am guessing the imput shaft left the chat. Stock truck just T&D. 170k. So I am probably lucky I got that many miles out of a stock 68rfe.

[@holeshot1721]

Same difference from warming up a truck or driving it the engine is still gonna rotate! Unless your racing the engine is gonna rotate to 2000rpm to around 2800 rpm diesel “rpm numbers then let off and coast! Glad to see you doing fords now! So lets say you took a torch and heated a bolt how long does it take to get hot? What happens in a cylinder is there a fire 🔥 explosion combustion applied to top of pistons and cylinder sleeves! How long would that fire take to heat up the metal just think about it! I myself will warm all my vehicles right till the cold light is about to turn off of does turn off right about that time just for myself though! I am currently got my honda up to 181k miles. Wet stacking theroy im not buying it cause even driving your still getting fuel injected into cylinders! Oil should not be getting up and around the piston to be broken down. 4 stroke engines scrape the walls and bring the oil down with it! Im not buying that dumb theory

[@TreeFeller4Life]

I disagree that pre heated coolant in a cold engine is good for it at any means. The coolant needs to heat to operating temperatures at the same exact rate that the engine and transmission does. Duping hot coolant into a cool engine and trans is asking for problems.

[@kevinbosley1259]

Diesel fuel is oil. Gas engines are much different.

[@paulwall8428]

Is it bad for your transmission

[@TruckMaster]

Yes it definitely is

[@jimolson8424]

91 or 92 octane gasoline, LPG has all been cut rate un pure fuel. No BTU'S for the price we pay for any of it.

[@gavinmercier1235]

run thicker oil and let it warm up for 20- 30 minutes, thicker oil = fuel not washing the oil off the cylinder walls or spend money you don’t need too makes sense