Virtual Boys Episode 97 - Meta Creator Program & What it really is.

Join Chris and Ryan as we breakdown what exactly the Meta Creator Program is and what it means for VR coverage from not just us, but anyone in the program.
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[@bisarproductions]

Thanks for being such lovely Meta shills (joking of course ;) … gratitude for shedding some light on the topic… stay true VB!

[@Imhotep397]

Another problem is that while while the acquisitions that specifically target stymying PlayStation (Ready at Dawn, Insomniac, Camoflouj, Impulse Gear and then only God knows how many third party PSVR2 games like Undead Citadel and probably Hitman WOA got delayed for Quest versions). Because Meta is pumping so much money still for the limited hardware spec to get preferred status with development it does hold VR back AS A WHOLE and no one highlights that outside a few PSVR centric channels and it’s brief. If Sony is interested in spending less money with third parties and have some success they can expect Meta to swoop in and pay the studio off one way or another, progress stopped.

[@WolfheartJG]

I don't really get all the dislike for Miura, i think it's one of the most beautiful cars of all time.

[@Imhotep397]

Another thing is that those developers that came out on the PSVR subreddit and reported that their games sold better on PSVR2 than Quest (Max Mustard, Cucumber Cowboy and Snowscout) are likely the canaries in the coal mine on the problem that MetaVR is a house of cards. Outside all the manufactured fervor all indications are that Zuckerberg is still squandering Billions per quarter for years on a failing product. The general vibe is probably why people are calling you shills. Outside of Batman there’s been no word of mouth energy building around anything Quest related for years except from content creator content. If Q3 alone has sold less than PSVR2 and the previous Quests are just simply not part of the 2024 sales equation it’s more likely Meta pulls the plug on their VR ambitions after investing 8-10 years and at least many, many, many BILLIONS of dollars with nothing to show for it making PlayStation look like a fiscally responsible company not engaging in a tit for tat in a market that’s not growing fast enough to support all that investment YET.

[@VRGRID]

You make alot of interesting points. I don't think cucumber cowboy and Snow Scout are really titles to reference as indicators of the success of PSVR 2. Instead, I think it points to the lack of quality titles on the PSVR 2 and therefore creates a desire for PSVR 2 players to try games they might otherwise not. Let me be clear, I and most of the creators I talk to would greatly prefer to play premium VR on PC or PSVR, and I actually don't love that Quest is dominating the market. 1.5 million 3s headsets sold in just over a month and now only 500,000 away from PlayStation is not a number to promote. The 3sIt will likely be one of the hottest tech items this Christmas, and at $299 it's not surprising. The facts are that the PSVR 2 also has an active player base problem, and with fewer numbers, that's an issue. The vast majority of developers have made it very clear that the Quest eco system is the only place to make money in VR. Yes Meta is spending billions and losing billions to push the Quest and VR forward, but they also have a lot more incentives and profit streams to stay the course. The fact that they are the dominant force shows its working. And with Meta looking to branch out and offer up the Quest operating system for other hardware manufacturers to use, it isnt likely to slow. They are poised to be the android of VR. Again, I'm mostly playing devils advocate, as I would prefer that VR was stronger on premium hardware, but ultimately, it comes down to companies like Valve, Sony, HTC etc to step up and compete.

[@Imhotep397]

@ I’m glad you atleast stated Devs position of enjoying the Quest “Ecosystem” rather than Quest sales. PSVR2 has significantly higher quality games to distract players than Quest, so I can’t really see “mediocre games” selling better on PSVR2 vs. Quest because of comparative existing libraries. I can only assume that’s what you were getting at. I’m not really sure that the Quest 3S specifically has sold 1.5M units as there haven’t been any public numbers like that reported anywhere and the primary sales tool for Quest units historically has been national ads mostly featuring arguably misleading/non-representative content for the product, but an overwhelming number of political ads have made that virtually impossible. If you meant sales of the original Quest 3, my mistake. While I agree that PlayStation has a problem with their PSVR2 strategy the reality is that they’ve sold 2M in a little over a year, so in 3 years if those sales hold they’ll have the same 6M they had with PSVR1 in roughly the same amount of time, which not great, but it’s also not losing ground. Sony should be finding ways to get more of their first party games on PSVR2 and more of their PSVR1 games ported over to PSVR2 to expand beyond the eventual 6M member community. The contrasting situation is the Quest 2 that sold like roughly 15M in 3 years (roughly 5M per years in 3 years) I think and the 3/3S has barely sold a 5th of that in the same time. As to whether the 3S will be the “Hot Christmas gift”…we’ll have to wait and see, but I doubt it. It seems like the Q3 should have sold a lot better IF the general casual audience hadn’t gone sour on VR generally or mobile VR. It’s quite possible that the 3S will sell like you think it will though. It’s also possible that many games have sold better on PSVR2 than Quest, but no other dev was willing to post that on line for fear of losing their relationship and start-up cash from Meta. There is a publicly recorded pattern of Quest sets not selling games and I don’t see that changing. I also think it’s what may lead to Meta dropping their VR agenda: nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2024/01/quest-2-vr-usage-sales-rates.html www.roadtovr.com/quest-sales-20-million-retention-struggles/ The problem I have is that no one in games media wants to cover the struggles Meta has so, if Meta were to decide to wash its hands of VR like in February because of poor Quest 3S sales everyone in games media would act like it was a complete shock. Yes PlayStation has a problem, but they are still making money while spending less in a smaller pool. PlayStation still manages to put together a Fall slate that includes better copies of games like Phasmaphobia, Arizona Sunshine 1/2, Metro, Alien and Hitman WOA. Sony has a better quality problem to deal with over the longer term than Meta IMO.

[@VRGRID]

I think meta suffers from the same issues mobile phones do in that they struggle to offer players who may own their previous device a compelling reason to upgrade. I think the Q3 could do a better job at that especially if more games are Quest 3 only and have the visuals to back that up. The full color mixed reality capabilities and a rediculously cheap price for the 3s will help as well. The issue i have right now with Sony is that i am always trying to convince people to jump into VR, and right now i can't recommend the PSVR 2 to many people. If they are new to VR and want to try all the fun things the PSVR 2 only does games. They havent had any exclusives in a year and with all the big games this fall, the PC is still best way to play them if you have a gaming PC. I love my PSVR 2, and im a bit of a Sony fanboy, but you have to do some real mental gymnastics to recommend them if someone doesnt already own a PS5. As for Meta bailing on VR.....like i said they are determined to be the Meta verse and to control that scene. I think they see that the future is there in many shapes and forms and they want to be the primary gateway. Peoples behavioral and purchase behavior is far more valuable then games being sold. Essentially Meta is playing chess in the VR scene while Sony is still treating the PSVR 2 as another peripheral. Im not saying that isnt scary in its own right, but it is reality.

[@Imhotep397]

@ So, it’s very clear we have very different perspectives on this. 90% of the VR games currently developed already are developed mostly with Q3 as the lead platform and more than anything that 36fps reprojected/spacewarped (lol) limitation with ok for 15 years ago graphics is as good as it’s ever gonna be it seems on that HMD. The Q3 is an improvement, but it’s not a console improvement step away from the Q2. AR/MR/XR/PassThrough….whatever you want to call it has been a limited technology for the last almost 15-18 years. I always knew that was a dud technology with no real large scale practical/recreational application, hence why after over a decade there’s still no such thing as an Augmented Reality killer app. At some point when portable compute is powerful enough it will be decent for location based entertainment in predictable environments like malls, or nature parks for larpers, museums, art galleries or theme parks etc., but that’s where the rubber meets the road for AR. Zuck doesn’t even use the term Metaverse any more as the general public already was creeped out by it after they snooped out the psycho-spying plan and the casual market checked-out of anything remotely associated VR from Facebook. I would say stop drinking the Koolaid, but everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe before the final results are in. The idea of “recommending a VR headset” to someone that’s not already into gaming and is already interested in a particular VR HMD already seems anachronistic…circa 2017-2019. Hence why Quest 2 and Quest 3 sales are so radically different. As far as PSVR2 vs PCVR I can’t justify smoking 1 or more GPUs on workstations I use for work to play games, especially for inefficiency reasons like not having access to DFR when there is an alternative option to use it. I test a bit, but I’m not going through the mental gymnastics of wondering about it while I’m playing ling game sesssions, it is supposed to be recreation after all. I can only imagine most other people can’t burn up expensive GPUs playing games as inefficiently as possible for budgetary reasons. Sony does need to allocate more resources to first party VR development, but I’m sure they feel like they have the whole 10 year console cycle to do that, particularly given that there won’t likely be an incompatibility issue going from PS5/PSVR2 to PS6/PSVR3 and they’ve squandered 100s of millions on live service games that will mostly fail. I suspect 2025 will be a better year for PlayStation first party across the board but it’s a wait and see on PSVR2 development.

[@iwantalot]

Great episode, respect for taking on the topic. Next topic...your opinion on the American presidential election. One thing that reviews are not really taking into consideration with clarity on quest reviews is the clarity between the 3s versus quest 3. Still seems to me there alot of incentives to be in the creator programme and want to impress meta. It kind of puts content creators in a club. You did mention you were looking forward to aces of thunder, arken age , hitman and midnight walk as games you are really looking forward to for psvr2, what are you looking forward to on the quest that are of a comparable standard? Keep up the good content guys.

[@VRGRID]

It's the nature of any beast like this program. Is the potential there? Sure. So find reviewers you trust don't watch the ones that sound sketch. As far as quest games we are jacked for... Outside of alien and behemoth, i dont think they've announced anything else that really stands out or looks like it's potentially pushing the Q3 to its limits...but I'm sure more of those games are coming soon.

[@iwantalot]

​​@@VRGRIDto be honest this is the kind of stuff that does make you question the validity of some of the creators opinions on Sony. I don't hear as much panicked news on how meta did not have a games showcase this year, cancelled GTA and splinter cell, cut back on funding vr, closed some vr studios and don't really have anything to potentially challenge the titles I mentioned above in the foreseeable. If this kind of news came from Sony the content creators pitchforks would be out straight away. Even on this podcast you straight away said meta are putting out games like nobody else but gave no examples of any games that are due out, instead you focused on what is coming out on psvr2 which actually currently has more exciting games announced than meta.

[@VRGRID]

I would actually completely agree with all of that. There really isn't much known about 2025 for Quest or really PSVR 2 past those 2 titles. I think the reason Sony eats more shit for their lack of information or game announcements is from their current track record post launch. They rarely promote the PSVR 2 in their major media pushes, they haven't had any first party exclusives outside of RE4, which was known since launch, heck we still can't get replacement controllers. Meta hasn't definitely not always come through either, but with Asgards Wrath 2, Batman, new headsets, constant headset updates, alot of promotion and the of course the creator program I think they leave an impression of backing VR. As a pretty big Sony guy, it really frustrates me. - Chris

[@iwantalot]

@@VRGRID agree with you about Sony needing to advertise more but it seems to me it's not two years old yet and there are a lot of games available. In the same timeframe that the quest has released Asgards 2 (not a quest 3 exclusive), batman, hitman and numerous casual MR games sony has released and helped fund Res 8, Res 4, gt7, cotm, Madison, hitman and synapse. Outside of mods i don't think any vr headset has released a line up like that within the last four years. Looks like Sony are putting the money into bringing games across rather than advertising the system. I do agree you that sony will prob pull out of vr as with the medias hate/fear/disinterest towards vr in general and meta basically almost monopolizing the vr content it would be very hard for any company to succeed in vr. In the end Sony pulling out of vr will be bad for vr in general as competition pushes vr forward. Meta will prob move onto AR and bring over their vr games to AR. This will slow down vrs progress by another 4 years. Hopefully Nintendo comes up with some sort of holographic gaming by then which would be awesome.

[@VRGRID]

Sony not being in VR would be a huge blow. They started strong with PSVR 2, but the impression they are now giving is that they are going to let other developers carry it. The lack of controller replacements is a real sticking point for me. That's crazy. I don't see Meta going all in on MR, it has a place, but it's not for hard-core gaming. It's like when people thought mobile gaming was going to destroy the console and PC scene. I would guess Sony will pivot at some point to a standalone VR headset. Wireless and cloud VR is the future, and honestly, it would suit Sony best to be able to market a headset separate from their primary console.

[@Imhotep397]

There’s a problem with the way it was addressed, from the perspective that, you can’t know what deals everyone in the program is getting as you’re all separate. The other thing is that Meta also pays into KZbin to push “their content”, which is probably how they’re informing content creators about how to do things that satiate the SEO requirements of what they are paying for.

[@VRGRID]

The program is fair for anyone in it. Theres no special treatment for any particular channel. On your second point, i have no idea but unless you can point me to proof meta is paying YT, this sounds more like conspiracy than fact

[@TheVRChatChannel]

👋

[@deesgames1016]

👍🏼

[@Imhotep397]

Also, the 20M in Quest numbers should be dropped, because only roughly 1.5 M Q3s and generally speaking the low attach rate for the Quest leaves most Quest2s collecting dust and not a part of the active community.

[@salvador2390]

👀

[@InspectorGamecat]

The mura in metro is pretty bad, half dark settings are the worst. If they make it bright you cant see it, if they make it totally black you cant see it. I mostly just tune it out after a while, it's like having dirty glasses. I miss my quest 1, I might buy another for full RGB panel OLED PCVR for £90. And the much lower resolution will actually help me run UEVR games 🤷

[@SAVAGE-GAMER-]

Ryan is a shill everyone!! I happen to know FOR FACT that a friend of friends cousins ex wife's boyfriends sister told me for every positive review Ryan does he gets a $1 LA styles hair gel coupon...MORAL: Never trust a guy who's hair is always on point 😂

[@iEffluo]

Haha I'm the guy that bought the Quest 3 through your affiliate link. (couple of weeks ago) Now do me a favour and figure out what was causing the hiss on your microphone. Hard to listen to at times.

[@VRGRID]

Who's mic??

[@iEffluo]

@@VRGRID I just realised the problem was with the device I was using... Sorry!