Descent: Legends of the Dark Review - Enter the Digi-Dungeon

[@cauldronofsoop8771]

Quinns:"Can I be candid with you for a second?" Fantasy Flight: *Gained +7 Sweat Tokens*

[@EvanSawyer4]

"Can I be candid with you for a second?" *is candid with us for 10 minutes.

[@voltcorp]

Right! I knew there was going to be a big mid-review turn because for the first half Quinns is talking about this exciting thing (on the app) and this other cool feature (on the app) and so on, while basically never hyping up the actual physical game. During the first half I was like "wow that sounds like a lot of time looking at that screen"

[@HelloFutureMe]

A huge number of games have basically tried to mimic D&D but in a board game without a DM, and I feel like half the time they lose what the board game framework is good at while still missing what makes D&D special.

[@GerackSerack]

The problem is that in D&D the DM works with the players to create a story. In a boardgame, the DM would have to work against the players and, if he wins, it usually leaves a sour aftertaste. Not to mention that the DM in a dungeon-crawler often feels more like a necessary component and less like a player.

[@gerard4559]

Wait, so half the time they get it right, or half the time they just lose the one thing and not them both? :)

[@godlaydying]

In my experience these games are fine at monsters, treasure and traps, but bad at 'specials', which is what old D&D (1st edition and earlier) called everything that's in a dungeon but isn't a monster, treasure or trap.

[@PhotonBeast]

@@godlaydying Definitely. D&D and other table top RPGs aren't really about treasure and loot, at least not in the same way that more mechanical games like board games and video games tend to be. Really, what board games need to lean on is less of the mechanical aspects of table top and more the emergent story. Ironically, Wildermyth is probably a really great example of a video game that mimics a board game that captures the magic of D&D.

[@flanbeau]

Putting story creation and role playing that the boardgame dont have, my main grip is that they try to convert the rpg mechanics into a boardgame mindset and that makes the tactical aspect lame. For instance in Imperial assault (similar system sa Descent II), the speed aspect that Quinns enjoyed is what I hated. You have to play the game in a certain way, the way the boardgame system intend you to play. Even if it would make sense to resolve a mission in a stealth way, no, you have to rush and aggro everything, because that's the way. That's because boardgame designers (and players I guess) wants precise rules where rpg propose a framework where actions can be designed on the fly by the players. In d&d, athletics and acrobatics are imprecise by design, in order to be there for players to spice up their actions and it's up to everybody's imagination to provide all the possible moves. It's even more the case with its Vancian magic, where most spells are just a lot of words you have to be creative with, and YOU define what they can and cannot do, like the wish spell. So yeah, if you have to put up with a lot of rules anddo a lot of work, why going for a restrained version and not for the real thing?

[@Nixitur]

Quinns dressing up as a wizard and talking about Descent, it's like 2011 all over again.

[@daili4917]

Once every 10 years, when the stars are right and the Moon is waning, Quinns transforms from humble game critic and becomes...a humble game critic with another man's pubes on his face. What a terrible curse to bear.

[@thomnewton9024]

I remember watching that back when it was on Penny Arcade.

[@Qwarky]

I kept listening to Quinns describing the mechanics and the app and all I could think of was "Why is this a board game? What's the purpose of the board if everything is actually happening and has to be input in an app? Isn't this functionally more of a mobile game, with a companion board for colour?"

[@Waywardpaladin]

The same reason you use a board and minis when you have a human DM keeping track of things in their head and describing everything to you. It is still cool to have it in 3d out on the board, it is still good to move your own character around and so on.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@Waywardpaladin A human DM can't draw pictures or videos in real time, so you use a board to share the visualisation with everyone involved. A computer is very good at drawing pictures and videos in real time, so making you use a board for that purpose is just a waste of time for all concerned.

[@Waywardpaladin]

@@BittermanAndy Do you think a 2d image is equivalent to the 3d models that you can interact with? That everyone can see around the table without having to crowd around the tablet?

[@CheshireCad]

What are players even supposed to do when it's not their turn to hold the tablet? Stare blankly at the functionless pile of cardboard on the table? Play on their phone? Remind the active player that they have an ability that lets them do a thing if they do a thing?

[@Lichelf]

@@CheshireCad I've played similar but better games and usually you put the tablet somewhere where it can be seen by everyone. Pretty much every game has downtime when it's not your turn, not just games that also include an app.

[@kiruppert]

It looks like, instead of a board game enhanced with an app, this is a mobile game burdened down by cardboard greebles.

[@earlofdoncaster5018]

Had they been smart, they would have designed a proper co-op boardgame without an app, like Gloomhaven or Middara, or even Descent Second Edition with fan made co-op add on.

[@DrMcFly28]

I actually love those boardgame greebles. I just wish they were accompanied by an actual boardgame, instead of being just a 3D visual aid for an app.

[@Shenaldrac]

Yeah that's my impression to. And as someone who like video games I'm annoyed because I'd love to play this as a fully digital product, but I can't. And it means if I play it anyway in spite of that, it'll cost more than a video game due to all the physical items, the chits and standees and such. It really feels like the worst of both worlds.

[@explorer47422]

@@earlofdoncaster5018 The irony is the companion app for Descent 2nd Edition actually worked really well - not too invasive, map tiles were relatively straight forwarded and added an element of unknown without requiring you to be staring at the screen all the time. This game had something going for it with the interactability of the terrain, but if it was just to find loot it felt a bit naff

[@jacobstankiewicz8251]

@@earlofdoncaster5018 I think FFG is too lazy to be smart quite often. Lots of their games are very much luck - based with almost no way to mitigate luck others than dice reroll. Not all of them of course, but lot of mechanisms seems copypasted. So I don't expect them being smart!

[@SlayerOfWorlds]

Human loading bar.... that is this game in a nutshell, greatest three word description of all time

[@golgarisoul]

Gloomhaven is cheaper than this? Damn, that's the most damning sentence in this entire review.

[@PMAvers]

Gloomhaven didn't have to pay developers to write the app that you totally need to track all the stuff in it.

[@dirks9816]

Gloomhaven has no minis and thats a huge part of the cost. Though i still find descent is a bit overpriced.

[@experimentsininsanity4478]

@@dirks9816 Not *no* minis, but honestly I don't mind the cardboard pawns for enemies. You get more visual pop and color than an unpainted mini without the investment of time and money it takes to paint it, and they're cheaper and easier to pack so you can fit more variety in the box. From this review I can tell even Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion has more enemy variety than this game, and it's a fraction of the cost.

[@micasa6982]

@@dirks9816 A bit overpriced? extremet overpriced!!!gloomhaven weights 11kg, and brings 19 minis,so it has minis,...and also a huge ammount of things!!! weights 11 Kilograms.Descent..brings more less than half material than gloomhaven, and the most immportant thing..i Gloomhaven t appears to be a much better game. I own it, gloomhaven, and i am nearly ready to start playing it.

[@B0rghalRantipole]

@@PMAvers Not sure if sarcasm or not, but I found using the Gloomhaven app a bigger chore than using the physical components. It didn't feel faster and only one person at a time could see it, so that sucked.

[@steve3256]

Everything that I've heard about this game makes me think it would be a pretty decent video game. I mean, they're basically halfway there with the app. I just feel like the seemingly slightly tedious gameplay mechanics would be a lot more tolerable without the incredibly tedious setup of each section of each scenario. It may just be a sign that I'm getting old, but all I can think is "ain't nobody got time for that".

[@sethsez]

It's strange, it seems to be far too detailed for a straight board game so it needs to offload almost all meaningful interaction onto the app, but as a videogame it's ridiculously simple and short on content. It feels like the worst of both worlds, packed into a ludicrously extravagant and expensive box.

[@Lichelf]

It seems like Descent 2E/Imperial Assault's co-op mode but with slower gameplay, worse combat, and a much more complex setup of each room. A bit of a shame because it also looks like it fixed the clunky "not designed for co-op" mess you have to go through in the other versions, and the app looks much prettier and better designed than the old ones. But if the actual game is less fun, has fewer modes, and costs more, then why bother?

[@jasongrundy1717]

There is a Gloomhaven video game. It will also be better than the video game version of Descent 3.

[@havcola6983]

@@sethsez I mean, the only reason they 'needed' the companion app was because they removed the Dungeon Master role. Which, frankly, was probably a mistake for this particular IP. Descent's started in this middle-ground niche between DnD and a coop boardgame which was kind of the charm of it. Me and my playgroup absolutely loved the first one, largely because it was a pretty good distillation of the dungeon crawling experience and the GM got to sort of ham it up a bit with boxtext and spawning monsters etc without having to do a ton of prep work.

[@CoronaMobius]

19:40 Leigh spittin' facts. It's nice to finally have a review that doesn't sugarcoat the fact that this game is 90% technology and 10% gameplay.

[@kev_whatev]

Wow this started out so promising, and turned into a brutal beatdown

[@moltenboyo2163]

Ironically these miniatures and terrain would be fucking incredible for a dnd campaign that sounds much more fun than this game

[@jeffreymonsell659]

Might also be cost effective for that many minis and some terrain?

[@DrossPedantic]

@@jeffreymonsell659 I got the D&D Adventure System board games for the minis for actual D&D. They're a great deal just for the minis. Plus, upon playing them, my group also enjoys the board games.

[@jeffreymonsell659]

@@DrossPedantic If I ever end up in an in person D&D group, I'll have to check those out.

[@moltenboyo2163]

@@jeffreymonsell659 and depending on the scale all that terrain could be used for malifaux or some other fantasy skirmish game, even 40k kill team if you don’t care about aesthetic mixing

[@connorjensen9699]

Honestly, might not be a bad buy for that judging by just how much stuff is in there

[@MichaelZipkin]

You guys really blew your entire special effects budget on this one episode. Well played.

[@lucketvids]

Yep, dental floss isn't cheap!

[@cowgba]

When this game was revealed my first thought was "what is the point of having so much folded cardboard terrain?" I assumed it must affect combat in a big way, like taking cover behind pillars, or climbing trees, or the cauldron example Quinns came up with. Finding out that the terrain is mostly just glorified gathering points is incredibly underwhelming. I can't help but roll my eyes when I think that the box is so large mostly to hold terrain. which it seems would be just as effective as a single punchboard of flat tokens. Thanks for this review Quinns, with all the hype this game has been getting I was starting to feel tempted to buy it. Your review pretty much confirmed my worst suspicions and I think you've saved me a purchase.

[@Hawkster52]

Honestly, at that point of app integration you might as well just play a video game. The app doing everything for you short of set up completely defeats the purpose of a board game. Hell, it even does RPing for you. Just play something like Divinity Original Sin 2 with MP, or if you wanna get old school play Baldurs Gate 2 with six people.

[@luccagiovani]

Yeah, when he explained that the game had a story through the app, I was like... why not play dnd instead?

[@explorer47422]

The irony is the companion app for Descent 2nd Edition actually worked really well - not too invasive, map tiles were relatively straight forwarded and added an element of unknown without requiring you to be staring at the screen all the time.

[@laylance]

I have the same exact thoughts. This is way way too much. Then what's the point of all those cardboard stuff? I was surprised/disappointed to see how many people were hyping this game during the release. (Also I came into board gaming as a PC gamer, so if I want a board game it should be as analog as possible. Otherwise I might as well play on the PC.)

[@KikoKay-Kay]

My thoughts exactly. This version of descent seems to have stuck the uncanny middle ground of both being a too finicky JRPG and a too strickt Dnd/Ttrpg.

[@tyomies6168]

Nah. The app integration is not what ruins this. The app integration just takes away many of the stupid things of boardgames like reminding other people about stuff and keeping notes etc. When done right it kind of mixes the best of both worlds. The thing that ruins this clearly is the crazy easy difficulty and the game itself is so simple and lame. In other words it is dumbed down to child level so that everyone can play it and not feel bad about losing because they basically win every time. Kinda like some modern videogames nowadays.

[@StefanSochinsky]

If they've already gone so far with the app, why didn't they just finish it and turn it into an ACTUAL video game? (Edit: The question was rhetorical)

[@rosiedanedogtraining]

Because Diablo resurrected is already out. Click to move. Click until they die. Rummage around. Repeat.

[@QuasarQu]

Because 💰💰

[@alexdamado]

It would certainly be cheaper : )

[@cyclemadness]

Just thinking the same thing after watching a few minutes.

[@christian_daigle]

Because even though its an app-integrated boardgame, it is not a videogame. You can still play with people around the table. And these people may not want to play actual video games. I think they've reached the limit they can reach before calling it a video game...

[@RyanEdwardsVA]

I don't think I've ever seen a more diametrically opposed review between SU&SD and No Pun Included. NPI gave an absolutely glowing review, putting the game on par (though they noted in the comments, as a different experience than) Gloomhaven, Efka saying he literally can't remember the last time he had this much fun with an adventure game. That's absolutely wild to me, and even having watched both reviews, I couldn't put my thumb precisely on why they came out with such different experiences. I suspect I'd have to play the game myself to figure that out, but being as the consistent criticism between the reviews is "holy crap, that's expensive," I don't think that's a curiosity I'll be indulging any time soon.

[@NoeAnton]

Tom Vasel from the Dice Tower was also not particularly excited about this version, and he is a known fan of the previous edition consistently making his top 10 for years.

[@Cloudman572]

One stop coop are enjoying their playthrough. Just shows different people like different games, who would have thought it. ;)

[@Dizee5]

SU&SD definitely has their style of board games they enjoy. For example, Quinns didn't enjoy Wingspan even though it has won countless awards, and i personally love it. Sure, it's thematically odd and can be unbalanced, but it's fun for me and my friends even though clearly not for him. I'm guessing it's similar here where some people just really enjoy the fruits and don't care what the ice cream taste like (to use Quinns' analogy). That's the joy of watching the same critic though, you pick up on the things they love, the things they hate, and how that lines up with what you love and hate in games to better inform your purchases.

[@Financiallyfreeauthor]

For what it’s worth we love it. My husband is a huge fan of tabletop role playing, both DD and others. We are able to play individual missions of this each evening. We use an iPad mini that we can both see which helps a lot. He builds the rooms then pauses to admire how cool it looks. Brings him joy. I like painting the minis and I’m not a fan of adventure games or dungeon crawls but I am happy to play this with him

[@rhodesn7bgg716]

"Gloomhaven is half the price and twice as long" Oh yea.... I forgot I already own that game. Thanks Quinns for properly taking me off the fence with this game!

[@stefanopaolini1345]

Honestly probably more than twice

[@mzy115]

Descent series has better mission design and stories. And you feel like you are actually doing different things. GH is all about kill them all, and you always kill in all scenarios. And Twice as long means you experience character progression twice as slow. Well, just say games are different at least.

[@blackwolfee]

@@mzy115 I have a few nice things to say about Gloomhaven! 1. Gloomhaven's missions are actually pretty diverse once you get past the first couple! A quick flip through the book shows various goals such as escaping a nasty ambush where enemies keep spawning, protecting an objective for a set amount of time or searching an area for a hidden item 2. Character progession is quite fast, Gloomhaven instead shakes things up by retiring characters after they complete their goals and introducing new characters for players to try. Its very exciting to open a new character and figure out how they work and is kind of what sold me on it. 3. To be honest, it kind of sounds like you might not have given Gloomhaven a fair chance, it really is quite good! I do agree that it is different though.

[@GregWiseman]

@@mzy115 Yeah i dont know if you have played all that much - there are escort scenarios, loot certain area scenarios, fulfill certain tasks scenarios... Sure there are a good few kill X or kill big bad scenarios - but the combat is SO DAMN good that it doesnt matter. Also progression is constant in Gloomhaven - like you have perk progression possibilities EVERY scenario, gold gain for items EVERY scenario, besides the usual experience gain. Not to mention the character goal which lets you play a whole other chatacter.

[@rhodesn7bgg716]

I should note, I've played many hours of Gloomhaven. My experience does not line up with Ming's at all. I haven't played any of the new Descent, but if SU&SD is right, Gloomhaven definitely has it beat in regards to variety and depth.

[@watcherfox9698]

“Board game publishers, stop making games that come in cubes” Yes. As someone that uses public transportation to get around and always has to pack my games to other places to play them, I really dislike the trend of games coming in bigger boxes.

[@B0rghalRantipole]

Indeed. There were times that I wanted to play some games but ultimately didn't because the box had a very inconvenient size for transport. It matters even if I go by car - the games still need to go into a bag of some sort.

[@feral_orc]

Just don't get big box games, it's not like every single game is a $100+ monster box, these are few and far between already they're just obviously more high profile

[@denisloebner4882]

get a cajun transport bag. they are originally for a box shaped musical instrument (and thus usually a lot cheaper than dedicated overpriced boardgame transport bags) and work perfectly for most boardgame box sizes including these cubic big box brick games.

[@B0rghalRantipole]

@@denisloebner4882 I assume you mean cajon? I got one and it's shape is near-perfect (it won't hold rectangle boxes, though :(), but it's not built for the part. The straps started coming off in a few months. Turns out, a cajon weights a lot less than a stack of 4-5 games :D So come to think of it, rectangle boxes annoy me more than cubes.

[@jesseclark7105]

Nothing kills my interest in a board game like "But look at all the pretty pieces!" That just means you're spending even more time with a game you don't enjoy.

[@revimfadli4666]

_"Plus_ look at all the pretty pieces!", on the other hand...

[@poliboy1980]

One of the best reviews for a boardgame. Not holding back. Honest. Even the funny comments deliver a meaningful message. Subbed.

[@leannesilvestro260]

I think my fave line was “well well well” at the end. It’s always the tiny things that make me chuckle the most!

[@Vertrucio]

Just letting people know that you can actually transfer your save game. I just tested this, transferring my save to the Steam version from my iPad so I could run the game on a projector. It's the same type of save file for every app, so you can go into your files on PC, Android, and iOS and copy it anywhere. It's not intuitive, but it's very easy to do for anyone with a little technical knowhow, enough to open a file browser and browse to specific folders.

[@valery_bondarchik]

When I look at these 3d terrain pieces I want to start my own KZbin channel called Setup and Teardown. And it will be videos of me ranting about games that waste my time on setup and teardown.

[@skinflutey]

Do it!!!!

[@EvanSawyer4]

I'd watch!

[@ophirgonen1772]

I'll watch it. But be fair. If the long setup time is worth the investment, and is needed for the game - say so. (Setup the 3d terrain on this Descent is not contributing to game mechanics, and is more of a bling than necessary, for example)

[@InexplicableInside]

The name sounds a bit long, I can't imagine anyone would go for that...

[@valery_bondarchik]

@@ophirgonen1772 Well, to be fair, I hate long setup in general. As I get older I have less and less time that I can "waste" so to speak. Teardown does not bother me as much - it can be kinda relaxing to put everything back in boxes and bags.

[@DiceHard]

Ah, Quinns offering us a brew like in the SU&SD days of yore. Before Brendan escaped from the cellar.

[@rambler209]

Hilariously, I totally agree about second edition. I watched the first two missions for this game being played by one stop coop shop, and I just wanted to break out second edition and play that instead.

[@RuNacken]

What an absolute gem of a review!

[@Financiallyfreeauthor]

I got this game for my husband for his 40th birthday. He loves it. He’s enamored with all the terrain pieces, loves the DD feel (but unlike that I’m willing to play this with him.” My joy with it is in painting the minis

[@godlaydying]

At some point, doesn't an app-driven board game become a video game with inconvenient physical setup?

[@RuNacken]

Yes, and I do think this game stepped over that boundary.

[@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart]

And it's barely even a decent video game to start with.

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

Only if you do not want tactile components when playing.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

I know NPI didn't think so, but I already felt Descent 2e's Road to Legend app crossed that line, so I guess we all have our threshold.

[@vasarat1]

fiddly videogame.

[@shrinkwrapped]

Well call me a goblin and hit me twice until I'm dead

[@julianbailey2749]

And this review highlights to me why I still list Imperial Assault as my favourite dungeon crawler board game. A rebel team vs the evil dudes, not being sure what cunning plan that you are facing, but always knowing that the clock is ticking and you have to act fast and follow the clues to win, hanging around to chase down that last stormtrooper is not an option. The setup is tight, the between adventure decisions interesting and the action full of teamwork and choices. The Imperial mastermind can tune the game to fit the success (or not) of the heroes and throw new abilities and tricks at them as the campaign unfolds. We finished the base box campaign with an Imperial victory, 1 action before the rebel scum would have achieved their victory and everybody at the table loved the story of that close defeat. The more apps take control, the less I feel like I am playing a board game and more like I am playing a computer game at 1/4 speed. I felt this start with Mansions of Madness 2 and it seems to have only got stronger as the app development 'improves' and controls more of the action.

[@jeffcarrier9808]

This review reminded me how brilliantly designed Gloomhaven is. Especially JotL. And I can't believe my local shop is trying to charge $250 CAD for this...

[@TheRatedOniChannel]

That is freaking insane! What the hell where they thinking?!

[@jaelynwatts475]

I own it. Trust me, it’s not worth even a fraction of that. The peak of your excitement is in the beauty of the components. Once you get over that (and you will), it becomes tedious.

[@connorjensen9699]

What’s its msrp in cad? Not familiar with cad

[@TheRatedOniChannel]

@@connorjensen9699 189 CAD I believe, that's from the store, so adding almost 70 Canadian dollars on top of that? Geez.

[@DieNische]

Watch Joel Eddy's Review for Descent. ;)

[@devinmarshall6091]

Thank you for all of the giggles. This is the most entertaining *and* educational review series I've found, by far. I love all the work you and your team put into these!

[@Zackackle]

End skit had me rolling.

[@ThePseudologist]

Yeah, that's my new favourite SU&SD skit.

[@daveb1101]

Absolutely. Best review ending in a good while!

[@burnttoastist]

I applaud your commitment to craft and the continued use of multiple takes so that Muppet Quinns can make cameo appearances. Well done!

[@christianschmidt2915]

I like board games and I like video games, but for some reason my Interest instantly drops to zero when I hear the words "companion app". Part of it is me wanting board games to be a "not in front of a screen" social activity, but I wonder if this kind of hybridization of board and video games is really a good idea to begin with.

[@Botanica_Gaming]

I like videogames too. The whole reason to play the board game is for the tactile experience in the real world. It may just be something that separates the physical to the digital.

[@BlindErephon]

Same, so far the only game with an app I thought really had something that made it really cool and added to the game was Chronicles of Crime, everything else just seems to be like "Hey we automated a bunch of stuff that wasnt any fun." which asks the question, why did you put that "unfun" stuff in the game in the first place?

[@joanthegamesmistress4523]

To my knowledge, there is only one actual hybrid game in existence. All the others are either a board game with an optional helper app (could be as simple as a scoring aid or as complex as the Gloomhaven helper, but nothing strictly necessary for play) or an electronic game you play on a tablet with some superfluous pieces on a table nearby (like Mansions of Madness or this new Descent game). I'm interested in hybrid games that take advantage of the capabilities of electronics while also requiring the physicality and social element of being in the same room with your friends. Games that could not be played without the electronic component, and also could not be played without the shared physical tabletop space. Only one such game exists to my knowledge, and that game is Eric M. Lang's X-COM. I loved it, SU&SD panned it.

[@TheSludgeMan]

I find it varies wildly. I love Tales of the Arabian Nights but I find flicking through the "companion books" really tedious. The fact that Lands of Galzyr app will instantly pull up the relevant text is a godsend. On the other hand, I absolutely hate Chronicles of Crime which devolves into a mindless, random QR code scanning fest every single time - the opposite of what I like about board games

[@benjaminmeusburger4254]

TBH we played Gloomhaven without an app für ~15 szenarios and then introduced the "Gloomhaven helper" app (available for free and not relevant for the game). It was great to speed up the game by removing 'fiddly' things and reducing setup time. - Keeping track of the live for Monsters and characters (instead of using small blood-drop tokens as dmg) - Taking care of the monster attack cards + attack bonus cars and automatic reshufle of them - maintaining of status effects

[@dsp5196]

Own the game , played the game. I think it's great. I personally feel he oversimplified combat a bit in this review, and terrain building isnt really a chore at all. If you are against app assisted games, this wont be for you. But this is the best app driven tabletop game I've played, and so far my personal GOTY.

[@dsp5196]

@@judahmierau7450 I've never played GH. Seems kinda fiddly to me, so I never tried it.

[@Vascariz]

Gloomhaven is a nightmare with all the tokens which have different sides to them. It's a piece of shit when it comes to component organisation and quality.

[@dsp5196]

@@Vascariz well, LotD would be much more streamlined. The app handles things like special weapon effects, inventory, status effects. Lets you focus on gameplay and not housekeeping.

[@DrMcFly28]

I don't know why people keep equating dislike for this game with dislike for app-assisted boardgames in general. I like app-assisted boardgames. I use companion apps in practically all my favorite games. But this game is not an app-assisted game - it's a boardgame-assisted app... and the boardgame part is completely redundant.

[@dsp5196]

@@DrMcFly28 I found the boardgame and the app complimented each other quite well, I would consider neither part redundant.

[@jacobl2222]

I'm a big fan of the concept of games incorporating companion apps, and a big fan of these coop campaign type games. So it's disappointing that they didn't manage to design gameplay that actually offers much strategy, variety, or crunch.

[@dsp5196]

I strongly disagree. Every mission has been widely different, with interesting mechanics to keep things fresh. I don't think this review does the game justice tbh.

[@jacobl2222]

@@dsp5196 Really? Hm, I'll have to check out more reviews.

[@LordSoulSicarious]

What games have actually handled companion apps well? This particular game sounds like a less involved clone of Mansions of Madness 2E, with a classic fantasy theme instead of pulp-cthulhu. That actually had hidden timers going, and it still felt like you were just along for the ride with no actual control. X-Com also did an app that felt like it contributed nothing that couldn't be done with a random deck and an egg timer. In general, these apps seem basically designed to obscure mechanics and leave the players unable to make informed decisions, because the core mechanics have all been blackboxed.

[@ryuinz]

@@LordSoulSicarious I've rather enjoyed the Journeys in Middle Earth game. The companion app is good, there is some decent (though thin) storytelling, and the game mechanics are interesting enough to keep us coming back. You can definitely meta game it, but if you resist that and try different character combinations it can be a good amount of fund.

[@goldengriffon]

God, so much effort goes into half-second jokes in SUSD vids...this is why I've been a fan for a decade. Bravo!

[@Peppagrue]

I usually agree with SUSD, and while I see their point, if I brought Gloomhaven to the group I play Descent with it would bomb hard. You know the part of the review where he describes jumping into a swamp, attacking a guy with a knife then flipping your card to ready your bow and clear your poison and how cool that is? That's actually just enough crunch for a lot of people who are mostly here to sit around a table and explore while experiencing a story together.

[@brandonshishido1006]

i agree. I think this game is a ton of fun. And you could def find it cheaper than full price.

[@angelaferris840]

I usually agree with Quinns...but....we are having a ton of fun with this game. We are about to start the finale, and we're having a blast! Also, setting up the room takes under 2 minutes...

[@BraveSirNivag]

You really had me in stitches on this one. "Obsessive feng shui for a dolls house". I think I am dead.

[@danielnagy1030]

The courier part with stairs really got me. I am courier myself and yeah, this is sooo true

[@timoseppa9124]

"Allow me to excrete but a simple cantrip" That is genius, even without the subsequent sound effect.

[@jacksonreynolds7433]

I have always completely unironically thought of the fatigue tokens in second edition as sweat

[@chalor182]

"And then I simply removed the 2 foot stick from my rectum" was a great line and hilariously self aware and earned an immediate sub.

[@Jayboslice2166]

Omg the hit twice until they’re dead bit had me rolling! 💀💀😂😂

[@qbicclips3023]

That was such a good bit at the end. Love your reviews!

[@03dashk64]

What a great review. Throughout the entire start of the review I kept thinking “this is a computer game/phone game with physical elements.”

[@Stormlight8700]

I haven't watched a SU&SD review for a while and so I almost forgot how funny you are! Loved the attack twice skit and the outro. And was that a mud potion I saw? - sure, why not. Near death, your friend smiles and hands over a pot crammed full with mud. Thank you.

[@nikvernon4251]

"how do you take your tea- 5 SUGARS!?" haha, I'm american so its true * *Quinns egregiously wastes the tea* * hey pal, that's my job

[@robertdascoli949]

I'm American and five sugars is an abomination

[@WolfanTerror]

How do you even taste the tea after 5 sugars..

[@ChristopherZAR]

Made me laugh out loud ;)

[@Perzyn]

As I was sitting here watching the review and how much stuff is handled by companion app all I was thinking of was "Isn't this just a video game with extra steps then?" and then Quinn went on with pretty similar conclusion.

[@jackpackage1467]

You‘re probably right with most of what you said. Still. I really like it. It‘s pretty much my first crawler. I play it solo every now and then and leave the scenery built up on a table where nobody is bothered and when I feel like it I come back and continue playing. I just finished my 5th mission and it‘s still just a lot of fun and a nice change from heavier Euro games played in a group. Cheers anyway for your review! I wouldn’t have expected anything else. 🙋‍♂️

[@SirBlackjack010]

You probably should try video games, if you haven't already, they offer a lot more then a cardboard app hybrid.

[@Cloudman572]

He is enjoying the game , is that not enough?

[@bertrand391]

That Spinal tap FX brings the intro pretty close to the Terraforming one on the SUSD intro visual greatness scale.

[@AntoniAmericaLatina]

These reviews are just awesome. I can watch them multiple times just to enjoy the jokes. Your scripts and storytelling ability is just another level. There's a bunch of board games channels that I watch and love but other channels just give me great reviews while your channel gives me board games-related entertainment.

[@ryanadams0922]

5:17 "the screen of attention deficit disorder + 1" XD LMFAO thank you I needed that laugh

[@JonSteitzer]

Very excited for this review. I've been super curious about this game, and I trust SU&SD.

[@teisonedwards7111]

Finally I know where to get my board game reviews and sketch comedies in the same video.

[@housecaldwell]

This is kinda how I felt about Gloomhaven, too. Yes, Gloomhaven may have crunchier combat, but if we got to the last room and we were going to lose and have to replay the scenario -- well, no one wanted to replay the scenario. The fun was in finding out what was next. So we'd fudge it. So we were in this weird place of "let's do the combat and do our best because that's fun -- up to a point where it isn't, and then let's just call it and find out what's next". If Tom were here, he could graph this curve.

[@masomase]

Best SU&SD review in years. Amazing.

[@justacynic]

I’ve seen positive reviews so glad to get a dollop of another perspective. I do feel that Gloomhaven : Jaws of the Lion should now be the alternative recommendation, given that it is 1. Cheaper than Gloomhaven, 2. Easier to find/obtain than Gloomhaven (potentially an American perspective), 3. Much much much easier to both learn and get to the table. Then if people enjoy that, they can ‘graduate’ to Gloomhaven and the oh-we’ve-decided-to-make-another-change-causing-further-delay Frosthaven..

[@aarcade6676]

Quinns being aware of the concept of catboys gave me some sort of crisis that I can't begin to explain

[@maxducoudray]

Sounds about right. Other reviewers seem to feel the same. I guess the designers forgot what really matters in their excitement to build cool-looking pieces and write a good story. I can imagine how easily that could happen.

[@EAKugler]

That has basically been FF's motto for decades.

[@Cloudman572]

One stop coop are enjoying it. I think it suits some and not others.

[@maxducoudray]

@@Cloudman572 Some number of people will always buy into a big glitzy co-op Descent. In my opinion, the criticisms of Quinns, Tom Vasel and others are still quite damning. It seems disposable and over-produced.

[@KoockieyMonzter]

Number one, this is a great review of the game. Number two, that bit you did where you were walking down the street trying to figure out how to carry the game was so funny, I rewound the video just so I could watch it again!

[@doggosplosion]

The science of String theory guised as magic....Brilliant!!

[@aramdonabedian1735]

So nice to have my game experience with this one validated. I have also been on about 4 dates with this one and feel pretty done with it.

[@cvb5092]

I loved Descent second edition and was even very active on the forum at some point. I remember the announcement of the companion app and the mixed reactions. Even though I have no longer time to play this type of game I still believe that focussing the development to make the Overlord role more interesting would have resulted in a truly unique experience in the board gaming landscape. I did play with the companion app a couple of times and this review closely resembles my thoughts at the time.

[@alcovitch]

1 vs many are simply not popular anymore. Them doing that again would have been the wrong move. The fact they made this coop from the start is a good thing. Everything else about it sucks. Descent 2nd edition saw a huge uptick in sales when coop was added via the app. I've played a bunch of Descent 2nd edition Road to Legend (app) and it's great fun. Unlike this new game made by talentless people

[@Smygolf1234]

Fantastic review as always guys. Keep them coming!

[@DieNische]

I really do not see why in this Descent is less game than in D2 or D1. On Warfare, every monster receives a +1 damage boost every 4 rounds, much more health and bigger defense. So key is to craft effectively, causing status effects, counting distances, anticipating monster behaviours. In comparison to games like Descent 1, 2 and Gloomhaven this version of Descent is a much better, more clever design to me. But you have to play on Warfare.

[@KacperFrydrykiewicz]

It's not only the SU&SD review I enjoyed the most this year - It's the best review I've seen this year, period.

[@adamsteed8573]

“I’m a human loading bar” lol. Hilarious.

[@Thedegu]

Decent 2 was the thing that got me into TTRPGs me and my dad played it nearly every day for months until we were through the campaign (me as the player, him as the dm). Then we swapped; we only got a few sessions in before my dad was like, "hey... do you want to try dnd?" to which I said yes, and remade the decent characters as my party. Well, long story short, I've now been playing dnd for the better part of nine years and DMing for five of those made friendships that made the world to me and told stories that have made me cry, laugh, and everything between. i owe Decent a lot, and I love it a lot.

[@razorboy251]

We've had a blast with Descent: Legends of the Dark. Playing it on the phone is definitely not ideal but it's doable; there is a bit too much dialogue to read - it would've been awesome if the dialogue was fully voiced or if it was shorter. The party members and especially the NPCs just never shut up!

[@VaultBoy13]

Yeah, the dialog is my biggest criticism. Had it been fully voiced, that would've solved it.

[@CommDante]

Ever heard of Middara? Probably even more dialog (sometimes 30min) but it's at least all voiced and can be downloaded as mp3, besides some app etc Or just ignore it and read the pages, its all optional. ;)

[@Iacommand]

Finally someone that doesn't hate this game or just agrees with the OP.

[@Zerot2009]

For me and my group (college students if you want an age) Descent 2nd ed. was enough app and enough boardgame, we play in a +1 player format, with one player basicly playing the DM at a PC, reading secretly interacting with the app and making funny voices. This new Descent is really too much "eyes in the app not on the table" for us, we will pass this one. Great video from our much loved Quinn and Team !

[@MrTombombodil]

Uh oh, whenever quinns offers me tea i know it's about to get serious.

[@cidiousblack2136]

He offered the tea, then he spilled the tea.

[@indubio1]

@@cidiousblack2136 ooh that's good

[@vee-bee-a]

Hopefully it's not poisoned... like Nadia's tea.

[@TheMelon9106]

16:00 Gosh which card sleeve are you using guys? Looks great!

[@tahsinshamma2369]

I've thought a long time about this. Most gamers don't want to play a 1-vs-all dungeon crawl. They would much rather play coop. Unfortunately, Kevin Wilson's original design has been boiled down to a design that fits the market more in this version, but also removes the tension that drove the conflict (in 1st ed). I have to agree with Quinns about this edition.

[@abnercliff9624]

Yeah descent was one of the pioneers of the 1 vs many type of game, and second edition improved on every aspect. I think I'll just get imperial assault, its just (slightly) better descent with star wars

[@vee-bee-a]

Is there a .pdf version for the campaign guide(s)?

[@jacoblambert1586]

This just seems like a more railroaded, expensive, non repeatable version of DnD. Campaigns in a box should be liberating and innovative, not this.

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

Welcome to every fantasy dungeon crawl board game ever, newcomer!

[@jeffreymonsell659]

​@@TorIverWilhelmsen Indeed. But I suppose these dungeon crawl games could at least offer a more mechanically combat experience for all of those combat junkies out there. I would think if you're interested in combat and combat alone, get one of these. Otherwise, D&D offers way more possibilities (including during combat).

[@Cloudman572]

D&D requires someone a) willing and b) able to DM. These sort of games aim to solve that and they work well for some folks.

[@jeffreymonsell659]

@@Cloudman572 That's certainly true. There are many people interested in the D&D experience, but getting a group together consistently as adults is challenging. This makes it easier.

[@AzraelCC]

Long-haired Quinns at 04:47 is a mood.

[@cyborgzloth]

oh how dissapointing that feels, The app is inovative and i do like how it generates the dundgeon, but it seems more like it's an expensive phone game with cool minis and terrain. maybe i'll get it for just the minis and terrain, but i feel like alot of the joy of a board game is that it's a game that takes place on a board...

[@abdulhammouda4884]

I was just going to say. I think board games walk a line between modern design and a game that'd be better as a video game and this, it feels, like it'd be a better video game. The openness and creativity of a table game is huge, playing someone's else's characters, not being able to say their words...I dunno, it seems like the step gloomhaven never took towards video games that made it magic.

[@fibonachos4810]

@@abdulhammouda4884 i am somehow reminded of the digital gloomhaven version

[@mikhailvoroshilov1536]

Very true, totally agree.

[@stefanopaolini1345]

Disappointing*

[@VaultBoy13]

@@abdulhammouda4884 And, yet, there are many that criticize Gloomhaven as very fiddly without a companion app. I rank Gloomhaven among my favorite games, but without the fan apps I'd likely have stopped about 5 scenarios in. Out-of-the-box it takes too many ideas from video games (without automating them) that it bogs down the gameplay with bookkeeping and maintenance.

[@vanigliacarogna6962]

Love that pink mug mate!

[@TexasRain104]

I can feel your frustration Quinn. Sadly, awesome review.

[@TheBuefurd]

I play tabletop games because I enjoy 1) The company of my friends whilst embarking on epic adventure, and 2) the physical interaction with the various miniatures, tabletop pieces, and parts. I usually roll my eyes at companion apps (though some can be useful). The focus on the app for Descent: LOTD, really throws me off. Even if it were the best app ever designed, I don't play tabletop games only to be forced to use another app. I have PC games for that. I want it all on the tabletop, no apps! This game will be a pass for me.

[@howardgreenwich490]

This may be the funniest SD&SU review I've seen. Well done, team!

[@clg6000prime]

Just coming back to enjoy the Full Quinn's Review (tm): savage simile game + mid review turnaround. Dunno if you've peered into your UK countrymen Battle Systems' Core Space-but a so much of the interactivity with the environment that was promised in D:LotD is handled in that game with no app! And surprisingly little rules overhead! And has amazing sci-fi dollhouse furniture! Worth a look, though it may be beyond the scope of SUSD these days.

[@petershuck9906]

I can't say I'm surprised. FFG's game design quality has suffered mightily since its merger with Asmodee. I keep getting the vibe that corporate mandates they print something, anything, with each of their IPs every year. Quite a shame.

[@sophielasfargeas1878]

Great review! Brilliant, funny. Your strength is that after watching your reviews I always know if I'll enjoy the game or not even no mater if you liked it or not. Brutaly honest, with the good and bad. Thanks a lot!!

[@munchymcmouthington298]

Personal alternative recommendation is the 2nd edition of Mansions of Madness. Not just a: "go and hit the thing" setup, good companion app, good atmosphere, easy to pick up.

[@micasa6982]

Correct. And do no know what was in mind in FF to make this APP. In MOM2 edition the app worked fantastic, this app is a joke, a video game.

[@micasa6982]

Fantastic review!!! I am also a rol player gamer since 1983...jejeje, yes i am quite old already, but still playing rol and tabletop games...i think the same as you about this game..in fact, in September i bought gloomhaven :), i will search if you have a gameplay of this game. Greetings from Spain!!!!

[@PrimatoFortunato]

Had they chosen the tiny desert people from star wars as main characters, this rummaging mechanic would be the most thematic EVER. We need a game about little trash burglars. Edit: now that I have watched the whole review, hats off to you. It was hilarious.

[@theorpheusvarietyshow]

You mean Jawas? And I agree, very good!

[@JeffGoris]

If Descent: Legends of the Dark boils down to move to the enemy and attack twice and that bores you, how can you possibly like Gloomhaven which is simply move and attack?

[@revimfadli4666]

Because you need handbuilding & management to carry it out?

[@rosiedanedogtraining]

I agree with every word of this review. Spent the first night putting together the playset and the second night on the first scenario and haven't opened it back up.

[@connorjensen9699]

At least you have a cool set of terrain & figures for a pen & paper rpg or some other better game

[@zynthio]

Also, the D&D adventure board games are actually a lot of fun. The rules are a light version of D&D 4e. There’s TONS of versions themed around all of the 5e adventure modules like Curse Of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, etc. The miniatures are awesome. There’s no 3d terrain, but the dungeon tiles are cool. I’ve been wanting to check out Gloomhaven. But I also want to pick up more of those D$D games because they’re quite fun

[@adamp3628]

Favorite line: "I'm both the player and the console! I'm a human loading bar, having to render every monster and get every bandit out of it's... plastic and where does it go? Here? Okay, loading complete! How fun!"

[@million_unalived_CEOs]

yeah I don't really get the point of the app. sure, maybe a room generator would be nice. but I then have to manually enter all the things that happen at the table back into the app for it to do its thing. that just sounds like all the worst parts of a video game, but then also have to manage a bunch of minis and terrain on a board too. I have video games, including cooperative dungeon crawlers, and they're great. if I'm sitting down at the table with people and taking the time to set up and play a board game, the _last_ thing I want to spend my time entering data into an app. just make a full video game at that point, I might actually play it.

[@TheNerdySimulation]

"A literal Catboy, which initially bothered me in a world of Classic Fantasy, but then I remembered I play the Anchor for Blaseball's Roundup." I fixed it for ya, Quinns. :3c

[@sethgivens]

Great review! It’s a helpful way to think about the game and it was a a lot of fun to watch. No spoilers but you have to stick around to the end. I was LITERALLY laughing out loud.

[@cqtlc]

Thanks Quinns, that was... revealing !

[@jimleach1947]

Right up that dressing gown, eh?

[@DungeonMasterJohnny]

really enjoyed the honesty here. thanks for that.

[@acerumble]

Gloomhaven really has forever changed the landscape of this type of boardgaming. Too easy to see the flaws and cracks in other games when compared to GH's near perfect production

[@olivierwieringa5682]

How awesome would it be if Frosthaven had some of that awesome (elevated) scenery 😎

[@brucewayne3148]

GH is a fantastic board game that I'll only play digitally. I feel the same way about Through the Ages. They showcase what a board game can do while also showcasing what players are willing to do.

[@stefanopaolini1345]

We would be fine with just a fun fighting

[@VaultBoy13]

Gloomhaven is a great game, but it's got its fair share of flaws. It's also far from a game that works for everyone. It's a heavy crawler that caters to hobbiests, particularly omni and Euro gamers. While most reviewers turn to Gloomhaven as the measuring stick for dungeon crawlers these days, they also forget that there are many gamers that want a lighter experience focused on the fun of chucking dice, solving puzzles, and stomping monsters.

[@stefanopaolini1345]

@@VaultBoy13 to these people watch reviews on the internet? I think most of the people here fits into the first category of gamers, so probably the reviewers know their audience and know how to do their job

[@stoogesmetal]

The very end was actually pretty damn well done. Really loled.