Siege of Cthonia Review

[@magicianman534]

I think the grounded, realistic, and logistical take on Warhammer that came from the black books and Imperial Armor will be remembered as an anomaly in the franchise. It was a different take on the setting that pushed against the current of what Warhammer wants to be that was made by passionate people who are no longer there. The 30k of the black books is gone, and it won't be coming back. Not just because the current writers can't recreate that style, but they also don't want to.

[@davetycho8330]

It’s the same with the models. They don’t want to recreate the old style anymore - not just in aesthetic, but also how to build them.

[@Josco83]

It’s not the best that COULD be done. It’s the best they were willing to do.

[@CsDeathshadow]

i didn't pay for the book, i downloaded a pdf version and shared it with everyone i know. my group is quite happy with this book, considering we didn't pay for it. some nice missions and more options

[@CsDeathshadow]

@@manofthewest5395 sure, ​ ufile DOT io SLASH 5i7gcyhn

[@dreovid4807]

Absolutely the #1 place for Heresy info Macca. I know I'm not alone in waiting for words from this channel. Will most likely pick this one up but that's only cause I don't own the Black Books.

[@monkeyinapanzer]

This book reminds me of one thing specifically. Fan made codex/army books especially the Warhammer army project where you have fans making serviceable, but not great books with mismatched art styles, occasionally weird rules, and odd formatting of pages. Perfectly fine for one or two guys working on a document, but when a black book feels like it’s in line with Codex: Kroot Mercenaries by Lord Big Dog Gamer 2002 or Chaos Dwarves 9th edition then you have a issue.

[@maximhyland5843]

Honestly as a SoH player all I wanted was the ability to run cheiftan squads in my Elite slot rather than fight for an HQ slot. The new SoH Hq looks quite vulnerable if you take him with a reaver retinue as they cant get invulnerable saves nor 2+ saves and can't gain jump packs to increas their survivability by means of mobility or benefit from the increased threat range. The book is a bit disappointing and would have probably benefited from having a balance update included in it and launched online alongside it.

[@zdron07]

I cant help but also notice no mention of solar, mech or milita

[@jackcanox4015]

Here we go boys...siege of crapthonia is here

[@Andernol]

I would love to get into HH 1.0 but finding the black books is a pain and the price is even worse. Yes, you can play with the red books, but it has fractions of the flavor and even the red books are ridiculously expensive. Also finding groups to play HH2.0 has been a massive struggle for me where I am for school, nobody has anything for 1.0.

[@zacrussell609]

I have been thinking a lot how i would rerelease this book (if i where the person sitting in a commite at GW fortress in mordor), i think i would keep all the accompanying model releases, with one change; the Imperial fists character model i actually really like tbh, but i am making him either a Terran Raven Guard , so minor sculpt changes and new lore. Keep the tank commanders, knights and SoH character (although it shites me its not Tybalt Marr or Horus Aximand) + whatever else. The book will have three main selling points 1) Shattered Legions rules (inc rules for black shields and loyalist from traitor legions + visa versa etc), 2) a proper campagin system guide, 3) Zone Mortalis rules. The narrative of the campaign is a SoH character hunting down shattered legion forces who are actually leading him into a trap to capture Cthonia during the early-mid point of the HH, i think you could have an intresting character dynamic of making it so the SoH and the now Ravenguard character actually fought alongside each other before Corax's exile and know each others tactics and warfighting goals. But you can still keep the "siege of Cthonia" label and end the whole campaign in a series of battles on Cthonia showing off tank warfare and zone mortalis combat. Just my thoughts on how to make it more intresting with as minor changes as possible to the whole array of releases.

[@Azikarak]

personally enjoyed the narrative of the book and found it pretty engaging and the writing to be well done, particularly the ending - and yes, I’ve read every Heresy novel + black book. Although I do agree that starting 2.0 with a campaign that takes place right at the end of the Heresy is an odd choice and I do believe it was chosen to be first as the IF and SoH are the poster legions of the edition. Agree on the art, I was expecting there to both more art as well as it being more varied. Would’ve loved to see more stylised MKVI shown for the Legions. Do think it’s a strange to choose your army when playing the campaign before knowing the mission - I think it’d be more fluffy and fun to be able to tailor your army. Taking a more static force when you’ll be holding ground etc. The Inductii I think are a good addition, some of their rules seem pretty fluffy - although there were missed opportunities like with the Raptors which is a shame. I wish there had been rules for more of the legions/factions featured in the book rather than just for the SoH and IF. Various other forces feature in the book and it’s a shame they didn’t get additional rules. Overall I think it’s a good book - particularly the narrative - but I think it’s very weak on the art front and I don’t get why there wasn’t more rules for the other legions featured.

[@DoddyIshamel]

Agreed, they did most of the hard work with the narrative and could have made people happy just sprinkling some thing for other legions in there. The loyalist thousand son leader, with maybe an interesting rite reflecting their sisters of silence warders in their white(!) Paint job. The Raven guard assassin guy and his alpha legion opposite with their shadow war. Anything Dark mechanicum to justify Drekyvaks presence. A cohort doctrine for Cthonian headhunters, a militia provenance for Armageddon light infantry, one daemon unit if any sort to expend the bound demons and maybe the word bearer character. 6 pages of minor additions and it would be a book for 9 factions instead of two

[@Azikarak]

@@DoddyIshamelyeah exactly, all it needs is a enough pages to cover the other factions present in the book - as well as more art and it’d be a solid 8/10 for me.

[@BittermanAndy]

"it was chosen to be first as the IF and SoH are the poster legions of the edition" - OK... and who decided that? And why? Why are there "poster Legions" in the first place? Nobody asked for that. This is arse backwards.

[@Azikarak]

@@BittermanAndyare you expecting me to have an answer to that? 🤣

[@BittermanAndy]

Didn't mention, for Zone Mortalis, how Deployment Points make the normal points used to pick your army almost obsolete. You get 12-16 DPs per game, and that's it. So if you bring anything except a single HQ, Troops, and a few Elites, chances are you won't be able to use everything in your army... or if you take lots of small squads, you won't be able to use it all and will guaranteed lose to an opponent who took a few large, expensive squads. It's nonsense.

[@or6397]

There is a fair bit of battles involving the Raven Guard and the Dark Angels. It does focus on the Sons of Horus as they’re at Cthonia but it’s more feeding into the stuff they go into with Abaddon in Siege of Terra how they’re ceasing the be Legion and becoming Chaos marines. Problems I had were: - They keep saying the loyalist garrison was stripped down but it’s still tens of thousands of marines that would be useful at Terra…. - The Dark Angels randomly killing the loyalists for no reason. - Inducti should IMO have been a really expendable low stat marine unit so that you can take the hoard. Instead of some odd choices and too many that focus on Despoilers for which we don’t have models.

[@BazookaJRambo]

The way that HH 2nd Ed is going, it just seems like they're trying to wind the game down, placate the existing long term fans for a while and hook the new people who just buy anything "new" and are seemingly intentionally letting the game die so they can focus on other Warhammer games, 10th ed and let FW focus on The Old World. Without Alan Bligh to steer this ship with his enthusiasm, this is just sinking slowly, bit by bit until people give up on it.

[@rutgaurxi7314]

Been saying this for a while.

[@Sevatar_VIIIth]

I can definitely see that being their plan.

[@Thorgrim153]

I found the inductii an interesting addition and has inspired me to actually use some MKVI in my Dark angels that are mainly MKII - III. Though most of the Inductii are not that good in game they do feel like the fluff has actually been thought about.

[@RSBurgener]

Great review, it was pretty much what I expected. Bad concept, bad rules; it seems like everyone involved proceeded on autopilot once they realized they were just filling up space. I wanna know more about the red Predator suit!

[@khamul64]

Allow me write a longer reply. Narrative - I just read few paragraphs about Space Wolves during the Heresy. I dont care about more. From what I understand this battle takes place paralel to the Siege of Emperor's Palace so yeah. Highly important siege indeed. This should be among the last HH books. ZM - this is only part that is kinda almost worth something to me. I may try these rules. Inductii - before I knew their exact rules I was pretty excited about combat shield and chainaxe armed despoilers for my SW. BUT it turned out Inductii cant be joined by any character. No apothecaries, no Wolf Priests, no nothing. Plus they are Support Squad. They hold no value for me as they are. If they were not Support Squad then yeah why not. But I still need regular TROOPS choice before I take them so... I would rather take Assault Squad or Jorlund Hunters/Tac Support with Rotor Cannons (both are Support Squad like inductii). Extra rules - I only care about tank upgrades. Maybe I will take the guy for my Sicaran Punisher. In essence the book holds absolutely no value for me. Certainly not enough to buy it. Like. There are 20 pages tops that I care about. I can literaly skip this book and loose absolutely nothing. Like Macca said. If I want to play ZM I can just import 1.0 rules and tweak few things here and there to make it work. Inductii are Support Squad wich is not something I am looking favourably at. I still have to take Grey Slayers wich are... Combat Shield and Fenrisian Axe armed infantry. While Chainaxe is better than Fenrisian Axe I aim to have at least half Slayers armed with Power Axes for that sweet AP2 and SW Inductii left unit sergeant at home so they have base Leadership. HARD PASS.

[@manofthewest5395]

Pretty much this. I play Night Lords and I said as much back when this book was previewed. I have zero reason to buy this book. Also, it's been more than eight months since the last FAQ.

[@khamul64]

@@manofthewest5395 Its almost like GW doesnt want my money. Oh well. I will just buy 3d printer instead.

[@ethanr7378]

This book convinced me that seige of cthonia is all GW has planned for horus heresy 2.0 with mkVI and this new mkIII armour and that's it that's why it's taking so long for them to release heresy models.

[@davetycho8330]

My personal theory about why GW is making the new mkiii is that they want to do mkiii breachers, but in the new scale, and that they know that everyone would hate them if they did that because it wouldn’t be cross compatible with the current mkiii plastics, so they redo the mkiii plastics and go from there.

[@ethanr7378]

@@davetycho8330 That's a good point.

[@SacredGumby]

My take on the art is that it's designed to match the back of the GW plastic boxes. Clean, no damage and the illusion that if you buy these 9 paints at $9 each you to can achieve this "eavy metal" style.

[@McMathwin]

Thanks macca

[@grimryder4893]

I honestly completely agree with you, when it turned up i was optimisticly hopeful but as soon as i had read it i was massively disappointed.

[@Shane_The_Confessor]

Have you tried Ossified's Age of Darkness Kill Team mod?

[@Darthvegeta8000]

Ordered it. I'm a Sons of Horus player. And I don't have the older black books. But yeah except for SoH, IF's and DA's this book is going to be extremely limited in use.

[@paulyg405]

Which black book has ZM in it? And is it much different from the boarding actions rules in Badab v1?

[@BittermanAndy]

1st Ed ZM was in HH1 and HH3. They also released it as a standalone PDF which you might be able to find on the web somewhere, though it's quite cut down compared to what's in the books. I'm not completely familiar with Badab but I think it's all pretty similar.

[@paulyg405]

@@BittermanAndy thanks, the Badab boarding actions rules are great - simple but fun, with some depth.

[@Sommeill]

The fluff was serviceable, better than 40k's. Otherwise, unless you were blessed with the good inductii or really want a blander ZM then it's a pass.

[@BittermanAndy]

I've not read 40K fluff in a long time. This is better than 40K? This? Oh dear.

[@liammorgan1413]

Pretty spot-one with the review. I came to a similar conclusion with my gaming group this past week, citing it as being a lot of fluff for very little contribution to the game as a whole. The stuff that it does contribute isn't in itself bad - the mission types, ZM rules (whilst it may not be up to 1.0 standards, I would argue that it's much better than what we initially got this edition), units, and unit augments all have something interesting going for them - but I'd hardly say it's enough to justify the price tag or the amount of material that went into making the book.

[@dalorasinum386]

Having just bought this book myself I can easily say that unless you play sons of Horus (I do) or imperial fists. Then just get the photo for your inductii if it’s a decent one and the mortalis rules from someone else if you can.

[@pascalbaumgarten5852]

I will never understand why they didnt make a translated version of this Book

[@terrysaunders7107]

Thanks for the review. Maybe the pdf is a better option. Glad I have the old books for reference. Tldr; keep or get the old books if you don't already have them.

[@jaegerbomb269]

Whole campaign is pointless as the world gets blown up by the Dark Angels. GW fucked up.

[@BittermanAndy]

Yeah, I just finished reading it. It literally says at the start "this whole thing is barely worth mentioning compared to the Siege of Terra" then as if that wasn't bad enough, they finish up with a 1st Legion Deus Ex Machina that makes literally everything and everyone mentioned in the whole narrative up to that point completely pointless. So... thanks for making me read something pointless, GW, I guess.

[@AJ-zy2ol]

More proof GW was really not going to support HH. What a wasted opportunity.

[@TheWolfenzero1]

Had to watch since my sodium was getting low

[@sylntghost007]

Do you need the old black books to play the first edition of heresy ?

[@andrewporter7704]

The match play rules that they ghost updated into a campaign supplement was an odd choice. Most people I know have chosen to ignore that entire section and just use the mission rules from the main rulebook.

[@BittermanAndy]

The missions in the supplement all look like they give the win to whoever goes first anyway. Most of them, at least.

[@gabrielseth5142]

Inductii are a cool concept, but too much of the Heresy and post heresy rely on them not being a thing, EVER. Like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders are struggling to find cohesion as a shattered legion, why would any of these legions have inductii? Wouldn't that defeat the whole point of the crushing losses at Istvaan V? Or that Calth wasn't a crushing blow to the Ultramarines because they could just crap out a ton more marines? Also throws into question why would the legions ever have bothered, even pre heresy with their recruitment methods of initiate to neophyte to marine when they could've just jumped right to marine and then begin their training?

[@jamesespinosa690]

While there are some interesting scenes. I think the story is another example of contrived writing. The entire campaign is silly and nonsensical. The fists should have just exterminatused the planet or other thrown a huge asteroid into it to destroy it. But no. We need drama. Here's some drama.

[@jellydamgood]

Of course, because that's how Dorn ticks, gotta do things the right way, which in this case means mano a mano look your enemies in the eyes as you execute them. The thickheadedness is absolutely lore accurate. Now if only the poster boys weren't the bananas....

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@jellydamgood Ehhhhhh. I understand that may be part of his characterisation. But I don't like it. I don't think it's realistic. These guys are supposed to be superhuman. The whole idea that Cthonia is both valuable enough to occupy, but also not valuable enough to occupy en force is contradictory. The traitors absolutely could have, and should have passed through it with their unbelievably fuck huge fleets. And totally toasted the traitors. The fact that Dorn who is demonstrated to be concerned about expending his very finite resources doesn't just nuke the planet into oblivion is very very dumb. The Imperium is shockingly low tech. Somehow we have anti grav technology. But they can't simply get a few tug ships to start smashing the planet with asteroids is outside of their reach?? I just wish the authors would do a better job at representing the actual insane level of intelligence these guys are supposed to have. Also, a new point. I'm disapointed at the depiction of Cthonia. There's not enough fighting in the tunnels for my liking. Im disapointed the Fists ever even managed to 'capture' it in the first place. And another thing. Horus had prep time. Surely he would have done a better job at reinforcing/booby trapping his own home system??? It's so close to Terra. Surely it's a strategically valuable area. Especially with it's name. The authors could have used it in some kind of occult storyline. Linked it to the Cthonian gate in the sol system for instance!

[@GarethMurphy40k]

I enjoyed it. At least the narrative side of things. Everything else was a mixed bag. And while I do think it's an ok book, its nothing special when you consider what they could have done with the first campaign/expansion for HH 2.0. I like a few of the missions and I like the ZM rules (although I'll be looking to incorporate stuff from the old rules). I think the inductii overall are bad. I definitely agree that they would have been better off sticking to legions that made use of them the most in the lore. Not because I'm a lore absolutist, i just think it would have served the game better. This better be the end of the focus on the IF and SoH legions. I think everyone, even players of those armies, are over it 😂 Overall I'd say its a wasted opportunity and a bit disappointing. Not a must have by any means.

[@billysidness5907]

Iv been waiting on this, not picking it up until Macca reviews it

[@amg5787]

What terrain does GW expect players to get for ZM? The Forgeworld ZM terrain is oop. Didn’t think necromunda ZM/walls don’t look right. So, boarding action?

[@Sevatar_VIIIth]

Im interested on what GW does after the BL HH wraps up soon.

[@DoddyIshamel]

I actually really enjoyed the content, but there is so little of it. It feels like somebody had started a black book and they put it out 20% finished. There is so much potential in it. Even if you look at it as just a SoH/Imperial fist book they dropped the ball. The narrative is interesting (love the cthonian imperial fist inductii) but for some reason they took the two less interesting characters to give rules when the inductii chieftain guy and his rival are both much more interesting. The inductii focus makes sense (especially when you have mk 6 to sell) wtf did they they not give us an inductii rite of war? You can't actually take an inductii based force even though the whole narrative is about them. Outside those two legions there is a whole host of cool stuff in the narrative that could have been developed into a handful of rule additions to make people happy. Best character and arguable hero of the piece is a loyalists thosand son and his troops who operate under sister of silence supervision. Wtf did we not get rules for any of that? Necrommundan light infantry are involved in the battle, wtf not just give a militia provenance for that? The Cthonian headhunters are again to the fore, why not give a cohort doctrine for them? These are such tiny additions that would greatly increase appreciation of the book. If anything screams cut down black book it's the narrative of the war between the Raven guard led shattered legion force and the Alpha legion, each led by badass operative/assassin character. Rules please? Finally, wtf bring Drekyvak (sic) to the fight and do nothing with Dark mechanical? It looks to me like rules for shattered legions and dark mechanicum were both meant to be in this book.

[@BittermanAndy]

I've just finished reading the narrative and I REALLY didn't like it, I thought it was complete rubbish, not to mention pointless. However, you do highlight some of the better bits which could translate quite nicely into rules... and they just didn't bother. Baffling.

[@DoddyIshamel]

@Andy Patrick Yes it was all pointless, and the repeated non fatal showdowns were cringy. The setup was very good though.

[@darko-man8549]

@13:00 It’s like a GW thing of not considering what was good and what was bad of an old system and instead just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks for a new edition. Part of me thinks it’s intentional to drive people to play the mew game

[@johndoe-ld9sm]

I had a great time as alpha legion loosing to and imperial fist player in the pluto campaign... but, that is based off 1st edition missions.

[@losmiercoles]

I don't think the rules section is as impactful as it could have been. Giving players something to do with existing plastic infantry (inductii) instead of new plastic infantry seemingly was the best they were willing to do. I liked the lore bit about the inductii though. I also like that the guy looking out of a tank now has rules. Still have to read the rest of the book. Offtopic, but almost everyone I know who started HH 2.0 and didn't have a 1.0 force has gone back to 40k to play 10th, and since they can't use their 30k models there any more, they already sold what little HH viable models they had. Really dumb move by GW if you ask me.

[@IVIaskerade]

I'd have no problem with the inductii if they weren't called inductii. They aren't. Some of them - the DA and BA especially - are basically pre-unification terran marines and pre-primarch legion respectively. Those are cool, but a bunch of special units with special wargear or rules are not inductii, and this lore mistake is going to mean we don't get proper representation of the actual rushed recruits either.

[@TrapDullahan]

One thing that disapoint is meny charaters named yet no rules or model. I mean a loyal thousing sons that be somethjnf

[@roberts.lamborn7461]

I am disappointed by this book too. Its not what it could be and light years away from the original books that were written by Alan Bligh.

[@sagacity1071]

Well they only had to impress the loud yellow marine and he'll handle the rest. Jokes aside... what is the point of the shittier tactical squad? Also why is this book online only? Dont they want hobbie shops to sell the game rules?

[@ForwardUntoDusk]

More options for narrative and some of them are good

[@sagacity1071]

​@Somebody WhoKnows I guess some are OK. Just seems unneeded when we still don't have all 1.0 factions to five legions another marine.

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@ForwardUntoDusk some of the inductii are good, happy to say. It's odd tho, because is that the selling point of a book? It's not a lot of actual content.

[@sagacity1071]

​@@TheOuterCircle that is odd... I personally don't see the need of them at all when being a "noob marine" is a fluff title and not a unit. That aside it's not worth me paying 50$ to have this book delivered to south africa just for those.

[@johnroberts8793]

I rather perversely enjoyed a campaign book about a campaign that had no value added to the overall conflict and was a resource and manpower suck. How many actual military campaign had the same issue? Granted, I do not want to see a second meaningless campaign book. One is enough

[@stick_boy6339]

Still waiting for blackshields…..

[@ExileDCC]

A real shame about ZM.

[@randallmusgrave5138]

The 4 turn missions feel good and bad. The courts still out for me.

[@soupboi1693]

this is a bit off topic but i wish i was one of gw salty fanboys i would kill to have to have same amount of income where you can buy everything

[@johndoe-ld9sm]

I couldn't even think of playing heresy without a 3d printer.

[@manofthewest5395]

Recasts go brrr.

[@SonOfTerra92]

Imagine the stank.

[@bennythejew]

its clear they have lost what forge world did to make Horus Heresy so good. they can't get out of this half assed bs they are doing to hh and 40k

[@colinbielat8558]

I think it's because of the death of Alan Bligh. It's also interesting because it seems like they are trying to erase his legacy and mark at GW. The moving of forgeworld units to legends for 40k seems to speak to that, and the work they have done on HH 2.0 also seems to confirm my assumptions.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@colinbielat8558 I don't think there's a conscious attempt to "erase Alan Bligh's legacy", that would be a really weird thing and imply that there's some kind of organised vendetta against his memory. I think they just don't have the skillset, knowledge, and enthusiasm to do a good job of it.

[@davetycho8330]

6:57 if I didn’t notice the old Thousand Sons “M” symbol on the shoulder pad, I would have thought that marine was a Word Bearer due to its colours. How could GW get something like that so wrong?

[@michaelhoule2134]

Main line GW studio.... Nuff said.

[@clonetf141]

I have not gone fully through the book yet, but I find the low amount of lore on the inductii to be a bit dissapointing, and the decurions are just sad

[@xenodraigshrike5052]

I like Mark 6 power armor...

[@xenodraigshrike5052]

I also liked this book.

[@xenodraigshrike5052]

I also really liked the vehicle upgrades and the traitor assassin model. I'm not sure why everyone hates it. It looks cool and totally 80s metal to me.

[@OzymandiasRex]

What a shitshow. Time to fix 1.0 rules methinks

[@prdalien0]

Imperial...fists...ahhhhh yaaaaaaasss🤑🤑 Gi LORIOUS

[@JohnDoe-sx6iw]

A genuine question, Would H.H. serve better as a "better game" if it were at epic scale?

[@ItsBofu]

Maybe. I feel like it would be a better game if it focused on larger scale battles... which means also not focusing so exclusively on Marines so that the militia and such can be a part of the battles. But that'll never happen.

[@Xii.legionary]

Return to 1st Ed HH or play Bolt Action

[@Wanten-the-stormtrooper]

Looks like 1.0 it is for me, since I really don't feel like abandoning the setting to play bolt action.

[@jackbradley3800]

Loved the book, and the price point.

[@ZerberusKnight]

"I'm gonna win, by loosing everything!" Man, you competitive players are cringe 😂

[@TheOuterCircle]

I could just see some sperge competitive player doing just that.

[@raphie8488]

Well another chanel I can put on "not interested"

[@benjaminjcklin-wilks7954]

Very interesting there seems to be a disconnect somewhere cause most people say they’re enjoying it … I really don’t know if I should jump in … circle lemme know do you still enjoy playing over 1.0 ?

[@benjaminjcklin-wilks7954]

Do you still play ? Horus heresy as a whole seems to have been ruined so I’m not sure why so many people are still playing .. or are they ? Jus trying to find out the general consensus

[@manofthewest5395]

The game is still fun and I play a lot more now than in 1st edition. That doesn't mean that some of GW's game design decisions aren't retarded.

[@andrewporter7704]

As far as player numbers are concerned the game is actually far healthier than it was in 1.0. Clubs have more players than before and events, on average, are larger. The salt on the internet isn’t translating into the real world.

[@gojira4444]

In my area, 1.0 had less than 10 players. 2.0 is almost as popular as 40k. We shall see how that changes with 10th edition 40k. Doesn't mean GW doesn't make stupid rules or decisions though lol.

[@khamul64]

I find Heresy to still be better ruleset than 40k is. I have no idea how 10th will turn out but my prediction is it will go as well as 8th because they are doing the same thing again. They also released all armies at the same time in 8th (the Index era) and then over the course of 2 or 3 years 8th became a bloated mess that was followed by even more bloated and confusing 9th. I had a lot of 8th games with my Knights and Krieg and it was... Ok as a game I suppose but it felt lacking compared to older 40k. I switched to Apocalypse ruleset when it dropped. I had only few games of 9th but found out that the preparations for the game itself took 1/4 of the entire game time wich is absurd. Now I exclusively play LotR, KoW and HH2.0 HH2.0 is not perfect but it did simplify some aspects of playing with Space Wolves.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@andrewporter7704 No surprise more people play a game within the year after a big new edition release than after multiple years of nothing at all. Question is, how many will still be playing 2-5 years from now? I think @Man of the West had it about right: there's still fun to be had, but GW have massively half-arsed and made some bewilderingly bad design decisions. But yes, some of it is still fun.