How green is fake meat, really?

Meat alternatives are greener than meat, right? Well, let's look at the data. To try everything Brilliant has to offer for free for a full 30 days, visit www.brilliant.....
ERRATUM: At 8:58 we show tempeh (spelled as tempei) as having a carbon intensity of 0.5kg CO2e / gram of protein. This is incorrect, it should be 2.5kg CO2e / gram of protein.
We often hear that meat alternatives are better for the environment. To test that, I look at the carbon footprint, land use, and other environmental metrics of the major meat substitutes and compared them to beef, chicken, pork, and mutton. The result may surprise you!
Thanks to Dr Ritchie for coming on the channel! Check out her work here: hannahritchie....
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NUMBERED REFERENCES can be found on my website: www.simonoxfphys.com/blog/2024/4/23/references-for-how-great-is-fake-meat-really
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Music by Epidemic Sound: nebula.tv/epidemic
Some stock footage courtesy of Getty.
Editor: Luke Negus.
Research assistant: Pierre Constantin Emmanuel Canet.
How green are meat substitutes? Is fake meat actually good for the environment? Do tofu, beyond meat burgers, quorn, and soy protein have lower carbon emissions than chicken, beef, and pork? In this video I look through the literature and talk to a world expert on the intersection between food and climate.
Huge thanks to my supporters on Patreon:
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[@Conus426]

we should just make an infinite water pool with 2 buckets and make minecraft wheat for everyone

[@itsnotallaboutyou-ge4mh]

Are you a scientist?

[@metetong2065]

Trust him he knows his craft

[@itsnotallaboutyou-ge4mh]

@@metetong2065 Thank you, I feel safe now

[@0xCAFEF00D]

We're still not utilizing space or transport well. Lets open a portal to hell to get glowstone first so we can do vertical farming and not rely on top block light level.

[@waitwhat6062]

​@@0xCAFEF00Dvertical farming also allows us to only use a single water source block for an entire farm, no need for the infinite water source

[@benross9174]

When people say thing like soy is bad for the enviroment, they usually dont know that around 70 percent of it is produced to feed animals in agriculture. Its like complaining about the water usage of almond nuts when cow milk is way worse in that department. Appreciate the video though, its good hearing your perspective and what a lot of the data says

[@Marchew1200]

True

[@hughmilner7013]

It's also worth noting that the almond complaints are very California-centric. That is, complaints about water scarcity in California and how much of that water goes to agriculture, especially almond production. And while that's fair - water diverted to fairly water-intensive crops in an increasingly dry state is a big problem - it's also not like almonds need to be grown there or, as you say, that dairy would be much better in that location.

[@edvindenbeste2587]

@@hughmilner7013 There's also the fact that alfalfa and hay use twice as much water in California (or at that scale atleast), which is enough to feed like 20% of the cows in the USA, while the almonds grown there are 80% of the world's almonds

[@slartibartfast7921]

Exactly.

[@corz299]

Soy has estrogen and low quality protein, that is my problem with it.

[@alexreid1173]

I grew up a vegetarian in the 2000s prior to the existence of brands like Impossible, Beyond Meat, Gardein, etc. I’ve tried all of them, but they’ve never become a staple part of my diet. They’re too expensive, and my diet just isn’t based on replacing animal products. I’m happy to eat the less processed options all day long. Tempeh is so underrated

[@mikkelens]

I’ve begun eating tofu and less meat (havent bought minced meat or the like since I moved out) and more veggies, but tempeh is not something available in regular grocery stores where I live. Where do you reckon I could find it? For the record, same thing goes for soy milk, its way less available even compared to oatmilk or occasionally almond milk. It’s weird. Maybe it’s because I live in denmark where we cant/dont grow soy but have lots of cows, pigs and wheat

[@lynallott3404]

@@mikkelens Asian stores should have it more often, or there do occaisionally exist vegan speciality places that'll stock it. I tend to find seitan is quite good aswell, and making that at home is incredibly easy, basically just wheat gluten, nutritional yeast, and a bit of soy sauce/veggie stock. Boil for an hour and it's done.

[@feffermickel]

I loveeee tempeh

[@randalalansmith9883]

I'm veg/carn ambivalent. But when I want a burger, I don't want something that tastes like a layer of carbs between two layers of carbs. I appreciate tempeh, but I won't pretend it's a burger (with guilty-pleasure american cheese and a greasy dressing). I'll eat a cow burger. And on my veg days I'll eat a plate that doesn't require a conspicuous protein. Rice and veggies is fine. I'll get the protein on a different day. Or in a dairy-based workout drink. It turns out you don't need every nutrient in every meal.

[@alexreid1173]

@@randalalansmith9883 I’ve never even considered having a tempeh burger. I just don’t eat burgers. Regardless, tempeh has a decent amount of protein (~19 grams per 100 grams). People severely overestimate how much protein they need. I’ve never even been close to deficient. I usually eat around 80-90 grams of protein a day.

[@neller1995]

I like when "moderately better than pork" for tofu is still 4-5 times as much. The only reason pork doesn't look atrocious is because of the skew of the beef being catastrophically bad.

[@RheeasDomain]

Everyone forgetting soy is not an autochtonous crop to Europe. We're technically discussing low-carbon import switches here with plants that are endemic to Asia. I do not fancy the inter-continental dependence, personally. In the UK people barely eat offal or fish roe, almost none at all. Compare that to the habits of Koreans or South-East Asians in consuming offal. The available seafood and fish in stores is lacking massively behind spain, italy, japan, portugal, france, despite being surrounded by the sea. The dietary habits of the british citizens have other problems too. It's never been just about the meat of the animal. It's always been about consuming and preparing/using it whole, something our "smart" little industries started skipping. Isn't most of the carbon calculation done per kg of POPULAR MEAT cuts rather than the whole of the animal that can be consumed? 25% of all children aged 10 in the UK are obese. Overweight, over 40%. I feel like the public has other issues too, having to do with refined foods and gastrointestinal/stomach flora health. A high percentage has vitamin and mineral deficiencies, andany suffer from gut inflammation like ibd, crohn's, ibs. With such issues within the population, talking about even more ULTRA processed foods (lab grown meat) that can be introduced in the diet based on carbon values feels like trying to bicycle before learning how to walk. It's an innovative idea, but why is society skipping the important bits? Btw, did you know Asian people, wuch as many of Japanese descent, are genetically equipped to better break down seaweed and soy matter to obtain useful energy/nutrients from it? However, not so much when it comes to digesting lactose. Back to the topic, worst of all, everyone avoids telling you all studies are done on Friesian-Holstein cows and maybe a few Jerseys, which are intensively bred for one purpose. The mistake is on the countries switching entirely to the most profitable breeds (monetarily). A number of autochtonous cattle are built DIFFERENTLY, and produce less enteric gases like methane because they feed differently. Peace!

[@LinusBerglund]

​@@RheeasDomainwe can easily cover human soy consumption in Europe with soybeans grown in Europe. And the climate impact of different ruminant breeds is something I have heard a lot, but never with any substantial data backing the claim. What I have seen is the opposite: high-production breeds have lower methane emissions because they grow faster. There seems to be some discussion about Nox-emissions, and that some breeds have lower emissions, but methane really is the big one.

[@pattheplanter]

@@RheeasDomain Maize, potatoes, tomatoes and sweet peppers are all Central or South American. Wheat, rice, barley, etc. from Asia. It would be difficult to name a major European native crop except for cabbage and sugar beet.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Agreed

[@jgreen9361]

There is a second reason pork doesn’t look atrocious. The average number is a little misleading. One pig on a very low income subsistence farm being fed human food scraps and crop waste has a lower carbon footprint than pigs reared for pork in developed countries.

[@SBrown94]

13:50 the idea that intensive vs. non-intensive farming of chickens is just a tradeoff between environment and animal welfare is a little misleading - the intensive farms often have worse water pollution, local air pollution etc., and crucially much higher risk of creating zoonotic diseases

[@Solstice261]

The river wye can testify to how industrial farming, "protects" the environment

[@Paulo44.01]

Sure, but importantly, they do take up less land and produce less carbon. Especially grass-fed cattle is really bad, because it takes up so much more land and they live for much longer, hence much more methane burps

[@spiguy]

​​@@Paulo44.01 I know they're carbon positive, but how does grazing cattle (that we don't necessarily need to kill) compare with synthetic fertilizer in terms of carbon intensity and biodiversity of soil regeneration?

[@WaddyMuters]

⁠@@spiguygrazing cows is not carbon positive. That is based on 1 totally bunk study.

[@spiguy]

@@WaddyMuters Carbon positive means that the system they're a part of is a source - not a sink - of carbon equivalent.

[@tim_mueller]

7:00 for everyone looking 1. Crumble Tofu in a Bowl 2. Mix with Oil, Salt, Pepper, Paprika and a lot of Soy Sauce 3. Roast in the oven for 10 minutes at 180°C

[@annesmith9642]

Thank you.

[@Erufailon42]

Thank you. I was indeed looking :)

[@tezzo55]

But WHY?

[@HillLeeHill]

@@tezzo55 Why what?

[@tezzo55]

@@HillLeeHill When children make mud-pies it's for the fun of make-believe. But why would adults fabricate the above? Is it down to their lack of protein! Or is it down to their alcohol consumption? Best

[@MinecraftILikePie]

4:59 it is absolutely tragic that dark chocolate is that high on the list. It's so good.

[@fka-Kaya]

I know right, who needs beef... :(

[@totallycarbon2106]

On the plus side - how many grams of dark chocolate are people eating in a year compared to beef? It's not a core part of anyone's diet - so don't feel bad about the odd square of dark chocolate if you are eating meat alternatives in your daily meals!

[@ericlotze7724]

There is a neat process at the Lab Scale where they basically did lab grown cocoa. Way easier than mammalian cell culture, although a little bit more complex than Yeast (ie beer or insulin). “Switzerland Slurry Bioreactor” or something was the article. I can grab more info of need be! Granted geopolitical/social impact is to be debated, but to make it “green” do that and we’re golden.

[@amaranthus4206]

Seeing coffee there hurts my soul way more.

[@wyliehj]

@@totallycarbon2106 beef provides way more essential nutrition that dark chocolate does.

[@filososabke]

Interesting to see lentils and peas being clearly indicated as a protein source. When I was young my parents just considered them a vegetable and put a sausage next to them. Glad to see they can actually replace the sausage.

[@yurisei6732]

Nutritionally they can, but cuisinologically they're still vegetables, which is why when used as a protein source they always get processed into something else, like a sauce or spread. Things Dipped in Hummus feels a lot more like a meal than A Pile of Chickpeas.

[@Broizs]

legumes like lentils and beans function nutritionally as both a vegetable and protein source, and are some of the healthiest foods you can eat since they contain good amounts of fibre, protein, vitamins, several minerals, no cholesterol, little fat, and have a low glycaemic index to boot

[@BM1982.V2]

​@@yurisei6732that's only because of societal conditioning. Once you start using legumes as the main protein source your mindset shifts to them as a main protein focus rather than just another vegetable. For us a meal is complete with a legume, along with a carb source like potatoes and rice, and a veggie source like broccoli.

[@yurisei6732]

@@BM1982.V2 No offense but that's really sad. You know you can make those legumes into interesting things right? You don't have to just have a handful of boiled peas.

[@MattAngiono]

@@yurisei6732 it isn't sad. You're missing the point. They aren't saying to eat a pile of beans. They are saying to have it as a protein source. Think "bean burrito" or the like. It's part of a larger delicious dish. And they taste great too. A burrito is always better with black beans IMHO. Hence why even when ordering a beef burrito at Qdoba they ask you which beans you'd like in it

[@jippiijajee]

If any other non-English speaker is struggling, here is a dictionary: beef - cow mutton - sheep poultry - birds like chicken pork - pig

[@hashedhakahol]

You - Hero

[@seonaxus]

Mutton - aduly sheep Lamb - baby sheep It English it's gotta extra not be easy.

[@tobylegion6913]

Poultry - birds, not just chicken.

[@MrKOenigma]

Hannah is way worse to understand because of her dialect... But it sounds lovely and sweet.... I need to repeat the speech sometimes, but this was I get to listen to her again

[@lunarna]

I hate how english speakers still use these horrible french words made for classist and coping-with-the-fact-you're-eating-other-animals reasons

[@UltimateArts13]

Btw Seitan comes from literal flour prepared in a specific way. It has a super long history in China labeled as Mianjin. Seitan is a super random word for the product used by a Japanese cult that spread to the US in the 60s.

[@DanLokar]

This video couldn't come at a better time for me! I'm switching my diet and I need to understand exactly how to make my diet more sustainable by cutting out completely meat products and not miss out on important nutrients. Thank you Simon

[@someguy2135]

The KZbin channels Nutritionfacts and Nutrition Made Simple are good sources of info. For those just starting, I suggest Googling 21 day kickstart for the advice from the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine. "22 day challenge" offers free mentoring for those starting a plant based diet.

[@idraote]

Essentially, you can't. It's an open secret that you can't give up meat without having to take supplements that don't do the full job anyway.

[@pattheplanter]

@@idraote Taurine, calcium and vitamin B12 are the only supplements you need if you are vegan. Unless you rely on maize as your cereal, when you will need a teensy bit of vitamin B3 as well. Most meat-eaters are deficient in calcium because they don't chew the bones enough.

[@marktaylor526]

@@pattheplanter Sources on Taurine and Calcium *requiring* supplementation on a plant-based diet?

[@pattheplanter]

@@marktaylor526 Advisable for many people, not required. Taurine will improve digestion by increasing bile acid production. It may also increase your lifespan by 10%. Not shown in humans yet but it has been shown to be totally safe in the 1-3g per day range. Calcium is difficult to get enough of with any diet, unless you eat cabbage and nuts all day.

[@hobbiefox-pastrycat4568]

I've been (mostly) vegan/vegitarian for the past almost 3 years. Never once have I questioned fake meats. So when I saw this video's title, I got worried, thought I'd have to re-redefine my diet... So I'm glad to hear my efforts were not in vain. Time to find out where I can get Tempeh

[@Sepi-chu_loves_moths]

I got worried too lmao, effective clickbait

[@dcseain]

I live in the Washington, DC area, and tempeh is available at most grocery stores here.

[@Solstice261]

Got me too, luckily I knew tofu was unlikely to disappear of my diet, and I discovered tempeh which I will need to search

[@MattAngiono]

Lol I was already crafting critical comments in my head... Glad that wasn't necessary

[@markuserikssen]

Lol, I felt the same when seeing the thumbnail! 😂

[@PotatoMcWhiskey]

Great video Simon! Really enjoying the new style and cadence of videos!

[@MoonlightWalnut]

Nice to see you here Whiskey!

[@sigmascrub]

I read this in your voice... 😂

[@TheLikerofPie]

Woah, didn't expect to see you on the comments! : D

[@itsme5939]

Great video, very informative. I do wish you had talked about or acknowledged some of the nuances surrounding this issue, though. Mainly 3 things... First, that livestock can often make use of nonarable land, that is land that is unfit for farming at scale. Second being the bioavalability of plant protien is lower than animal protien. The number is somewhere around 10 to 20%, so to maintain a healthy diet one would have to eat more plant-based meat alternatives than animal proteins. Lastly, I wished you had talked about how nutrient and water intensive lab grown meat is. I know you'll probably never see this comment, but I felt these things needed to be mentioned regardless.

[@scottstw456]

As a picky eater I eat Tofu, tempeh, Seitan, beans and peas for protein and it works great and doesn't hold back my cooking at all.

[@i_dont_know_who_i_am69]

interesting watching this as someone from South East Asia, where Tempeh and tofu are basically the main protein source over things like beef, which are way more expensive.

[@someguy2135]

Tofu is part of my everyday diet. It is so versatile and I never get tired of it since it is compatible with so many types of seasoning and preparation methods. A whole food plant based diet along with minimally processed foods like tofu and tempeh can save those of us in first world countries about a third of our food budget!

[@applesthehero]

where I am, I have a hard time eating things like tofu regularly because it's quite expensive

[@allanjmcpherson]

@@applesthehero if you have the time, you might try making your own. If you can source soybeans cheap online, making tofu is pretty easy.

[@theflaggeddragon9472]

As it should be. The fact that beef can be eaten regularly without the consumers going bankrupt because of absurd tax subsides is, well, absurd

[@ericlotze7724]

@@theflaggeddragon9472also advances like CAFOs and Long Haul Shipping of animals to Slaughterhouses. Australia is even trying out “Animal Export” with cruise ships of sorts full of Sheep/Cows. Ethics aside the “Disassembly Line” and packed cattle cars are just about the only way to make meat (especially beef) that cheap, and even then environmental issues make it difficult to keep it up. While farm subsidies are a whole debate in of themselves, at the end of the day it is the argument of Expensive but High Quality in all terms of the word, or what you do to make it inexpensive. These foods have me intrigued as you can get the best of both worlds hopefully. Good old fashioned tofu and all that isn’t bad either! As stated though we also have to convert people who *think a Carnivore Diet is normal*.

[@Thelocalpsychopath]

A key point to the behavioral change is that you don't have to completely alter your diet for it to have an impact. Reducing your meat consumption by 50% will still be a significant reduction in the greenhouse emissions from your food. This is what I tell my meat-loving friends and family: you don't have to quit meat, just make it more of a luxury. In fact, this is how it used to be in rich countries not too long ago. We have doubled our meat consumption in a couple of decades so we'd just have to go back. That probably means making meat more expensive (nothing like the old monetary behavioral nudge) through taxes. It will force a bunch of beef herd farmers to change up what they produce, but that's by design. Great video, Simon! This surge of yours after the "I'm not sure if I can keep doing this" is really impressive, and I sincerely hope it pays off. Everyone should watch your climate coverage!

[@tealkerberus748]

I'm comfortable being a meat eater. I eat meat typically once or twice a week - more if I have a slice of salami in a sandwich. One nudge I would love to see is banning the intensive fattening of cattle and other livestock in feedlots. I'm a cow farmer, and the right place for cows is out on pasture in landscapes where we simply cannot grow crops there, due to soil type, slope of the land, climate, or other restrictions. I get a little over half a metre of rain per annum here and my land is ancient sedimentary clay, but my cows are fat on it. When we want milk for our household, whichever cow is making more milk than her calf needs will be bribed into the bail with a bucket of chaff and grain, but the rest of them live from one year to the next on our not-very-good pasture and they flourish on it. Cattle and other ruminants aren't evolved to live on a high grain diet, and they aren't evolved to live in concentration camp conditions. Humans need to get back to living on foods they can grow mostly in their own backyard, with less than 10% coming from more than a day's walk away. Mostly vegetables, some mushrooms, some algae, some fruit, some eggs from backyard hens, some milk for those of us who have lactase persistence, a very small amount of honey, a little bit of cereals, a little bit of meat, a little bit of freshwater fish - nothing we can't reach by walking. That's what our bodies are designed to live on, and we can minimise the damage we do to the earth while maximising our own health if we get back to that diet.

[@011izationalex]

A point that is really missed in this video: The things that are happing in a cow stomach would also happen to the grass on the field in the autumn. It would degrade to Methane and CO2. So it basically is a circle. While growing the grass consumes CO2 from the air and in the fall it reemits it. The problem arises if you use fossile fuel to bring food to cows. Now there is a source of CO2 that wasn't in the atmosphere before.

[@ThePlayerOfGames]

Grass doesn't rot away each autumn, it basically hibernates. What *does* cause damage is unnecessary grass cutting, for aesthetics and such, as that cut grass does break down and the dead roots release nitrogen

[@Kinmoku]

Shame so many meat substitutes are processed with wheat :( Not good for celiacs, wheat allergy and gluten intolerant.

[@doppelkammertoaster]

What would be interesting as well to contrast this with the question of how healthy meat replacement products are for us and for our gut biomes. Lots of classic meat producers switch to these vegan alternatives as the production is way way cheaper, as the resources needed are cheaper. But it ends up being highly processed food.

[@Atchikaru]

19:20 the greggs roll being a class of meat should be officially documented somewhere

[@The8BitPianist]

10:22 "Mh... That's a business expense" was very funny!

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

It was so funny!

[@mollusckscramp4124]

Gregg's is so good

[@Respectable_Username]

One other issue with many "fake meats" is that, outside your own home (where you have nutrition labels), it can be really difficult to know _exactly_ what they're made of from an allergen perspective. For example, the fake meat that was glutinous protein from wheat, well, that's a coeliac's worst nightmare, but not obvious from the name. The fungus one (Quorn I think?) also was said to be grown from wheat. For people with allergies and intolerances, including a lot of folks with IBS, meat is a very "safe" option from a risk-avoidance standpoint. To make these fake meats accessible, we need to make sure their actual ingredients are available to all consumers. Just putting "Beyond Burger (TM)" on your menu won't give somebody with a soy allergy any idea on if it's actually safe for them to eat or not!

[@emilysmith6897]

Also it means many of us can't eat these meat alternatives. At least not if we're trying to be healthy. They don't count as substitutes unless they also match the macros, micros, other chemicals and compounds, and allergens. Which I think is literally impossible without going with lab grown meat.

[@GuerillaBunny]

IBS reacts to fibers and sugars, of which (basic) tofu has none. If you're getting symptoms, it's probably something else. Otherwise you are 100% correct. The ingredients should be publicly available. I'm guessing you're in the US, because I'm pretty sure it's required in EU.

[@Respectable_Username]

@@GuerillaBunny Tofu contains the FODMAPs GOS and fructan, according to the Monash University FODMAPs app. Plus, being based on soy, which many folks are allergic to. I'm not US-based but Australia based. Food bought at supermarkets must list all ingredients, but food bought from a restaurant or café does not, which can be _incredibly_ frustrating for folks with health-based dietary requirements!

[@tealkerberus748]

@@GuerillaBunny IBS is a syndrome - a set of symptoms that are routinely observed together. That doesn't mean it has the same cause for everyone. And it very commonly appears beside one or more food allergies or intolerances. When mine was really bad, meat and milk were the only things I could digest. Any plant-based food at all went straight through me at high speed.

[@SergePavlovsky]

@@emilysmith6897 what makes you think meat has no allergens? plants have much better macros/micros and other chemicals than meat. plants are healthy, meat is unhealthy. main source of food allergy for humans is eggs, second one is milk and dairy. fifth and sixth are fish and shellfish

[@9cwai958]

The unfortunate fact is the good meat substitutes are still more expensive than meat. If we want change it must be done by governments. Individual choices can never replace institutional action.

[@johanngoode803]

true! governments need to stop subsidising animal agriculture!

[@trevinbeattie4888]

Loved the Minecraft backdrops ❤

[@growtocycle6992]

I wish you would add a follow up that includes falafel, baked beans, mushroom burgers, nut cheeses, dhal...

[@Luis-vx1tx]

Tofu, tempeh, and Seitan are delicious can absolutely replace animal proteins in the vast majority of people

[@someguy2135]

I eat tofu every day, and also eat tempeh and seitan as part of my fully plant based diet. The misconception that soy consumption should be avoided because of fear mongering about phytoestrogens needs to be changed. Soy has been a staple in Asian populations for many generations, and many Asian countries are among the highest in longevity and other health markers. Tofu is very versatile and can be delicious when seasoned properly. My favorite way is with miso, which is a great source of the savory flavor called umami.

[@bkolumban]

@@someguy2135 I 'd rather eat phytoestrogens from a plant than estrogens from a mammal.

[@someguy2135]

@@bkolumban Me too. Very wise.

[@ma30k45]

Tofu and seitan aren't very healthy longterm. Tempeh is great though

[@ma30k45]

​@@someguy2135fermented soy has been. Or properly prepared. Not the soy products we tend to eat

[@judithlashbrook4684]

No mention of TVP! I've made lasagna with tvp that meat eaters didn't know was veggie!😂

[@AkirIkasu]

TVP is basically soy. It’s a byproduct of soybean oil production.

[@SomeoneBeginingWithI]

what's tvp?

[@judithlashbrook4684]

@@SomeoneBeginingWithI it's a soja product "textured vegetable protein " . It comes in chunks or mince and it's sold as a dry product so it needs rehydration

[@tristanridley1601]

Soy protein was mentioned. TVP is just what we call it when it's a raw ingredient, especially when bought dry.

[@Concreteowl]

TVP is soy or pea protein.

[@BooBaddyBig]

There's also solein which is a type of bacteria they feed hydrogen, water and carbon dioxide, and it uses that to make protein directly from nitrogen fertilizers.

[@yurisei6732]

That's not great though, nitrogen fertilisers are a major source of the pollution that comes from agriculture.

[@advanceringnewholder]

I couldn't eat a kilo of tempeh in one sitting but i could handle mushroom. the future replacement of meat to me is definitely mushroom. It's easy to farm once you got all the setup.

[@Jason-gq8fo]

Mushrooms don’t have much protein right?

[@salvadordavinci7]

Not so much protein in there though.

[@someguy2135]

I love mushrooms, and eat them daily, but they don't have as much protein as tofu or even beans, nuts or seeds. That is why I eat all of those foods daily. I enjoyed growing my own lion's mane mushrooms, which have been the tastiest of the mushrooms I have tried. Shiitake are also one of my favorites. Most people never try any mushrooms other than white button or maybe Portobello, which is actually the same as white button, except more fully developed. I love those too, and eat more of them than any other.

[@robertwinslade3104]

​@@Jason-gq8fo while protein is definitely needed in a diet, the amount of protein we need is often over-estimated. We CAN be healthy on less protein than most people think, so I would say mushrooms can still have their role to play as a meat substitute even with the lower quantity of protein

[@advanceringnewholder]

fried tofu and mushroom stew. yummm

[@dcseain]

It’s weird seeing Tofoo instead of Tofu on that package.

[@brandonm1708]

After watching your past 4 videos, I have now subscribed! Your videos are by far the most down to earth, informational breakdowns of climate-related issues that I’ve seen. Keep up the great work!

[@KatharineOsborne]

As someone with IBS, Crohn's, and a soy allergy, and where most vegetables (including mushrooms and legumes) and some fruits, make me very ill, it's heartening to know that chicken and fish have around the same impact as vegan 'meats'. Also I'll have to try seitan. I didn't know it's just wheat, which I can consume without issues (as long as its not whole wheat).

[@tealkerberus748]

Have you tried any of the algae products? If you can digest fish, their food chain is based on algae, so you might be able to digest algae - and it's a lot easier to grow in staple-food quantities at home than chicken or fish.

[@KatharineOsborne]

@@tealkerberus748 I have no problem with seaweeds and other algae. I’ve not seen protein products made with them.

[@jimbobur]

Talking about protein as if it were one singular nutrient is reductive and misleading. For example, there's an important distinction between complete/incomplete protein foods; not all protein sources contain all of the 9 essential amino acids (not made by the body - they have to be sourced ftom our diet).

[@balintkmetty2036]

Meats are complete; plants aren't. But if ur eating more than 1 type of plant that's probably not a problem. (Which is realistic.)

[@HomesteadAce]

IMO these analysis always don't include the full picture. 1) Animal related emissions maybe exaggerated by feeding a soy/corn based diet, industrial practices and food wasting 2) Bioavailability of animal protein is higher so one must account for the increase in demand when calculating the equivalent plant amounts. 3) Overconsumption is general problem, compensating for this may change the numbers greatly.

[@robsengahay5614]

The bioavailability point is a myth. I don’t eat any more since I stopped eating meat and my weight is the same.

[@jakedesnake97]

​@@robsengahay5614how's your muscle mass? How are your hormones? Weight ≠ health.

[@NoahStolee]

simon - i wanted to tell you that i am LOVING this new style of video. ive found every single one since the switch up to be extremely engaging and ive been sharing them a lot. i would personally love to see more like them (if you also like them and want to make them)

[@nixx5490]

Really cool to see Hannah Ritchie here, her book is really good

[@thursdayblack]

Shoutout to the stats layout in the main paper mentioned. That's a monster amount of data forced into an A4 while still being understandable

[@sebstott3573]

Another great video. Another point about protein is that most of us in western countries get way more than we need (almost double the RDA in the US) and there is an abundance in cereals, legumes, vegetables and nuts. The obsession with protein (in developed countries) is largely manufactured by the food industry. Most of us would benefit health wise from reducing our protein intake (at least from land animals), even ignoring all the externalities.

[@jakedesnake97]

That's assuming you are a relatively young and sedentary adults. It's worth noting that the RDA for older adults and active adults (especially those doing strength sports) is much higher.Your body needs proteins to survive, repair itself, and maintain good hormonal levels; it does not, however, need carbs which just provide energy. Also, unprocessed vegetables, cereals, and nuts have a bad calorie/protein ratio and don't have a complete amino acid profile.

[@kp00005]

Great video! I've seen this question floating around both on the web and in everyday conversations, glad there's an easily accessible answer now!

[@OctagonalSquare]

The problem is that none of those alternatives are nearly as high quality of protein sources. Your body uses only about 50-70% of the protein in most of these sources AS protein. The rest gets processed as carbs by your body. So to fully replace your meat consumption with them, you have to eat copious amounts of these plants to meet your daily protein needs.

[@SamS-bw2zs]

Proof?

[@MothsAreTheBest]

The only issue I have with vegan "replacement products" is that they're usually ultra-processed. Would love to know about any work-arounds for that.

[@Volther11]

replacement are, well, replacement. It's too help people transition. Want chicken nuggets, here are some plant-based chicken-like nuggets. no need to change your recipe or learn a new cooking methode. Also, most alternative (tofu, tempeh,...) are not ultra-processed, they are processed like cheese or yogurt. But if you want minimum processed food, i would advice to add new recipe in your cookbook. Many vegetarian or vegan recipe don't use replacement and only "raw" ingredient. You want to try, add "Watermelon curry" to your cookbook. Google will help you with a recipe.

[@MothsAreTheBest]

@@Volther11 thank you for a well thought-out answer :D

[@yurisei6732]

That's kind of inherrent. You're trying to force something that is in no way meat to look, taste, feel and function like meat. The process by which that is achieved is... processing. If you want an unprocessed plant-based diet, you're on beans and peas.

[@MothsAreTheBest]

@@yurisei6732 I agree, but I do think there could be a way! Like tofu seems to be pretty decent, UPF-wise. Sadly I'm chronically B12 deficient so even with supplements I still have to eat meat :')

[@SomeoneBeginingWithI]

@@MothsAreTheBest (obviously check this for your own health, but as far as I know) there is a lot of b12 in eggs, and also in yeast extracts like marmite. It was interesting looking at the graph how similar eggs were to the soy products. Marmite/vegemite isn't a protein source but you can add it to bean and tomato dishes for umami/salt, or just eat it on toast if you like it. (not saying you should cut out meat)

[@celestinarogers2935]

Hannah and Simon in the same video, that is pure excellency! Thank you for your amazing videos

[@antoinemint1353]

I don't know about mycoprotein. It has a high allergen risk. I saw a paper citing around 70% of the population that tried it had allergic reactions.

[@Solstice261]

A lot of people eat mushrooms regularly, are you aware of that? By that basis you should also be wary of gluten and lactose, of course if you find yourself being allergic, avoid it, but I assure you most people can eat most varieties of edible shrooms without much worry

[@celosiapigeon]

Do the studies take waste into account? I know how much food including meats are going into dumps in this area and wonder if spoilage resistance of the alternatives adds to the benefits.

[@michaelniederer2831]

Well researched and presented, as always. Thanks!

[@OldShatterham]

Have been wondering about this question for a while now... great video!

[@NickCombs]

I'm guessing TVP is close to seitan & tofu in terms of carbon footprint? I use 1 lb (dry) per month, Amazing Chiles brand.

[@jandraelune1]

Cows burping depends largely on what and how they are fed. Being feds lots of grains and seeds causes indigestion which leads to burping. But let to graze on grass, the burping is gone for the most part.

[@robsengahay5614]

Cows take longer to fatten up on grass hence the intensive feeding of grains etc. so the cows are considerably older when slaughtered. Grass-fed actually needs more land and grass is a seasonal crop so rarely available year round. This is why grass-fed beef is more expensive so only available to a small minority of people.

[@kasroa]

Even if that is true, grass-fed beef is literally the most environmentally destructive meat you can create. Completely untenable at the scale required to meet demand.

[@tealkerberus748]

My cows live on grass and whatever other forage they can find here, and they're always fat and their calves grow and fatten nicely too. My hillside is ancient sedimentary clay that would wash away if I tried to plough it up to grow anything else, but it grows cows and kangaroos and echidnas and a whole complex ecosystem with hundreds of species of life forms quite happily. This compares pretty starkly to the people down the road who are on rich volcanic soil and grow potatoes - and nothing that is not a potato is allowed to live in their paddocks. They're growing a lot more food-for-humans per hectare than I am, but personally I quite like seeing the kookaburras and echidnas and magpies and all the rest of the animals here, as well as oddities like the little sundew plants that grow anywhere the soil over the clay is too thin to support grasses. Also, of course, if I tried to plough it up to grow potatoes, the entire hillside would wash away and I'd be left with bare rock. I think if people are growing cattle that can't breed and fatten on rough country with a whole healthy ecosystem around them, they need to look at their genetics. Cattle are meant to live and flourish on land like mine. They don't belong in feedlots eating grain brought to them in a truck!

[@kasroa]

@@tealkerberus748 plus, none of this has anything to do with why you breed cattle. You're exploiting them for profit. That's it. Why pretend otherwise. All this nonsense about the land and nature? Heard it all before, but you never hear people say "guess I just like the money".

[@robsengahay5614]

@@tealkerberus748 Your response presupposes that all land has to be useful for human food production or it has no worth at all. Are you in a fortunate position where your grass grows all year around and you don’t suffer droughts because, if so, that is extremely rare and most cows need to be brought food from elsewhere at some point and normally every winter? Whilst I have no doubt that your cows are able to thrive where you live the human population actually consumes billions of them and I imagine that your farming methods couldn’t come close to meeting the demand. How many cows per hectare do you have? I also suspect that your cows live longer before being slaughtered than the average.

[@StratosFair]

Appreciate the well researched (and produced !) video, Simon. It's especially helpful that you provide all the sources in the description

[@oliverc1293]

A really crucial point here is the nutritional value beyond only protein. If we're reducing overall consumption of meat for environmental reasons, we need to have a serious conversation about where we'll get iron, zinc, B12, and other key micronutrients. That applies both in high income countries and low and middle income countries, where micronutrient deficiencies are already a huge issue.

[@kasroa]

Erm, there has already been a serious conversation about this, like, for decades. You know vegans exist and are way more healthy on average than non-vegans right? And you also know that meat is by-and-large a food of the globally wealthy not the poor. And worst case scenario, we supplement the food (already happens) instead of supplementing the animals and animal secretions (e.g. B12).

[@oliverc1293]

@@kasroa Hi there! Yes, that conversation has been going on for a while. I'm in international food policy, so I'm regularly part of those conversations in global, regional, and national fora. My focus is low and middle income countries, so I certainly recognise the point about huge inequality in consumption of meat. Your comment about vegans being healthier that non vegans is an oversimplification and not borne out by the consensus of best evidence. Animal source foods are a great way to improve the nutrition of people at the highest risk of malnutrition. There are huge issues (environmental, welfare, overconsumption, AMR, etc) but the nutrition issues are complex.

[@monkeykoder]

@@kasroa Vegans are in general healthier than meat eaters, however, the data I've seen says they're significantly less healthy than ovo/lacto vegetarians. Animal protein will likely always be a part of a healthy diet but we don't need anywhere near as much of it as we currently eat.

[@oliverc1293]

@@monkeykoder that depends on who you mean by 'we'. There are overconsumers and underconsumers. We need an overall reduction, with some groups increasing consumption within that.

[@tealkerberus748]

What we need to do is slash our refined carbohydrates consumption. Replace most of our bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes with mixed vegetables, and the conversation changes completely. Bonus, a family can grow most of what they need in quite a small area of land - for most family sizes and in most temperate climates, the suburban backyard is more than enough space. Add a small flock of hens fed on garden and kitchen scraps, and a mushroom shed if you're really keen, and suburban self-sufficiency starts to get quite powerful.

[@shashooitznc5860]

Thank you for always taking such a nuanced approach. I feel like the diet discussions tends to go to extremes. There are multiple ways to get to a future of sustainable food system and every person must do the effort to find where they can do better within the context of their life (I'm moving back and forth between vegetarian and vegan)

[@bosniakedisniksic]

Another great video Simon! Been loving your last few vids. I can see the effort!

[@Archer690Channel]

considering crops pull out carbon from the air to grow and then that carbon becomes our food, does that mean that all carbon they absorb actually goes back to the air or is there a net profit of carbon reduction?

[@yurisei6732]

All things are ultimately carbon-neutral because Earth neither gains nor loses any significant amount of matter (although we are shedding helium into space, which isn't ideal). The idea of carbon positive or negative is only in the short term. Burning fossil fuels is quite carbon negative in the short term because it's moving carbon from underground storage into the atmosphere, and carbon takes a long time to get back underground, but across the entire life cycle of the planet, it's carbon neutral because the carbon got underground in the first place by being taken out of the atmosphere by plants and then being buried by geological processes. Agriculture is slightly carbon positive for an average of about 70 years because it locks some carbon up in the bodies of the humans at the end of the food chain, but that carbon gets released back into the atmosphere eventually when the human is cremated or fully decays.

[@MattAngiono]

You have to compare to a biodiverse healthy landscape, because that's the opportunity cost of any crop production. These sequester much more carbon than any basic crop, because they create a whole ecosystem with healthy soil beneath. A study in Nature estimated we could "rewild" 75% of current farmlands if we went plant based. And we could focus on the places where more carbon dense ecosystems would thrive. This could reverse decades of carbon emissions, though it likely isn't enough to be the only solution to climate change

[@yurisei6732]

@@MattAngiono Which wouldn't actually happen because human population grows to meet the food supply available. If we were to stop animal agriculture, we wouldn't rewild 75% of agricultural land, we'd just convert 75% of agricultural land from animal use to production of extra food or luxury crops or to further urban sprawl. Y'know, land uses that generate profit, which is unavoidable under capitalism because land is the ultimate source of wealth.

[@MattAngiono]

@@yurisei6732 you don't know what will "actually happen" any more than I do. Far more people are paying attention to climate issues than 20 years ago, and this conversation wasn't even happening then. At some point, humans will realize we require the wider ecosystem to be healthy, as we are animals that require habitat to survive like any other. And yes, capitalism is a huge issue and impediment to this. Ending capitalist extraction mentality is also crucial to our survival. You do want humanity to survive, don't you?

[@JamerTheProgrammer]

Awesome video as always, Simon! I love that you included stuff about lab grown meat, as it was something I was insanely enthusiastic about a little while back... Until I researched it and got put off by the "silicon valley bubble" critique. Thanks for covering it all!

[@someguy2135]

I am actually more optimistic about Precision Fermentation produced animal free produced dairy products. I read that PF technology could also produce animal free meat in the future. I tried some PF milk, which tasted amazingly creamy and delicious! Unfortunately, because of the huge subsidies that traditional dairy and meat producers enjoy, the prices are a lot higher at this point.

[@kian2010140]

I love that this is now in part a recipe channel. Love to see more!

[@DarthWho01]

Fun fact about Quorn: it does not have much iron so if you go vegetarian and try to use Quorn as a substitute for your meat, you're going to end up anaemic and wanting to sleep 40 hours a day. My mum (who is a food scientist) reached out to Quorn suggesting they should be more explicit with this to perhaps explain that it is decidly NOT a substitute for meat, who responded that they know it is not a satisfactory substitute for meat and as such they never claim to be a meat substitute, just make the correct claim that they don't contain meat.

[@Solstice261]

Overall if you go vegetarian you should try to eat more iron and vitamin rich foods, which isn't hard, in case of doubt ask a nutritionist

[@mattd8725]

It's true, it caused me problems. The main problem is that meat has heme iron which is easily absorbed and plant based has non heme iron. The plus side is that that iron pill are one of the oldest and most proven to be effective forms of dietary supplement.

[@Psyk60]

Thanks for that information. I eat a lot of quorn, so maybe I should take iron supplements.

[@weird-guy]

Eat beans then

[@rosenkohl5675]

​@@Psyk60I would recomment supplementing in generell. If you eat vegetarian/ vegan or just eat not that many animal products then you should suppliment vitamine B12, iron, vitamine D (and if european selenium and iodine).

[@ribbonrides886]

there's a few more points to consider when replacing meat in your diet. 1) if you care about how much protein in need to eat, you should also care about how many calories you eat together with the source of protein you choose (for me this immediately disqualifies nuts and related products, same as fatty meats) 2) when replacing meat with vegan sources of protein you should take a look at what's the profile of amino acids that create the protein, since you need all of them, not just some. if the vegan source is deficient in certain amino acids you'll need to complement it with another source. 3) cost... as said in the video (19:36) some of the replacements are prohibitively expensive, others although better, still more costly than chicken or pork. at least in Slovakia where I live.

[@hillockfarm8404]

And that to get enough protein from plant sources you need 2-4x that of meat due to how the body can metabolize it.

[@pattheplanter]

@@hillockfarm8404 Just mix two proteins in one meal, like chickpea and tahini in hummus. Vegeburger in a wheat bun. Beans and rice. Tofu and noodles. Popcorn and peanuts. Nuts are great because of the calories they provide. They are also execellent for the cardiovascular system.

[@someguy2135]

It would be hard to believe that rice and beans aren't cheaper than meat anywhere in the world!

[@someguy2135]

@@hillockfarm8404 Lower calorie and even protein density would be an advantage for most people in the developed world, like here in the USA, where the majority of people are overweight. Just eat all you need instead of eating animal products and dieting. Peanuts are another cheap and delicious way to get lots of protein.

[@ribbonrides886]

so I just checked at tesco online store... 298g of beans = 203kCal = 20g protein = 1.01eur 743g of rice = 934kCal = 20g protein = 1.92eur 175g of chicken breast = 185kCal = 40g protein = 1.35eur

[@stevejohnson3357]

One thing. Beef can be raised on land that can't grow anything else and being natural grassland, there is no deforestation. That's best practice, of course, but much of the industry is not.

[@jirivegner3711]

Also animals often eat plant parts that are left after extracting "useful" parts. I am curious if the studies try to correct for things like this.

[@tealkerberus748]

Studies into the environmental impact of beef cattle always work with the worst case scenario - American style feedlots, with cattle kept in concentration camp conditions, fed on grain brought in on a truck and jabbed full of antibiotics to stop them getting sick in such unwholesome conditions. Cattle grown on natural pastureland the way cattle and cattle-like animals have lived on steppes and prairies and savannahs for millions of years, and maybe brought into cropland just briefly to turn the stubble into manure before the next crop is sown, are not part of the equation. They're not a good advertisement for plant-based diets at all, but they're very happy turning rough grass into more cattle and building soil carbon as they go.

[@bielefeld3671]

Mock duck is also a delicious plant based traditional meat replacement

[@Dontreallycare5]

Lab grown meat seems like an insane idea when you keep in mind it’s still very difficult to produce commercial scale specialty algae. Liquid bio reactors struggle to circulate enough light through the whole system, I can’t imagine how irritating it would be to try to circulate nutrients and waste through a slurry of undifferentiated muscle cells.

[@morgan0]

9:46 tho tempeh is also partly plant based, partly fungus. the nutrition content is different from plain soybeans, because the fungus ate a bunch of carbs from it and turned it into protein and other nutrients for you.

[@camelracingfan]

really in-depth and comprehensive

[@robkryten]

Reading Hannah Ritchie’s book at the moment and it argues strongly to reduce meat consumption - but recognises the cultural difficulties. This video sums it up nicely 👍🏼

[@TheyCalledMeT]

protein per square meter used land has a VERY strong flaw ... the majority of grasing space can NOT be used for regular farming as well as much fodder is just below human standard, turned to animal food -> either flawed harvest or cicling trough seeds to regenerate the fields inbetween the primary seeds

[@Solstice261]

It's very nice to have this video, I don't use a lot of fake meats, mainly limit myself to tofu or just straight up beans but it's nice to have this comparison and knowing that I can indulge in a fake hamburger once in a while

[@biggerdoofus]

I really hope Beyond is viable. They stopped selling their meatless jerky in my area a while back, and I'd really like them to bring it back. It wasn't better than beef jerky (about the same in my opinion), but it was more conveniently priced and packaged in more convenient amounts. Regarding the burgers, I the impression I got from eating "impossible" burgers is that the companies using the patties in their actual burgers were using them properly. They lacked the usual seasoning that normal beef patties have.

[@someguy2135]

I loved Beyond Meat jerky! I bought all they had when they went on close out. I still have a freezer full of their breakfast patties that were on close out at one point. Could you clarify your point about Impossible and Beyond? I don't understand.

[@biggerdoofus]

@@someguy2135 The non-beef patties I tried at Burger King and Jack-in-the-Box both lacked flavor. Those both used patties from the Impossible brand. I didn't get a chance to try the ones from Beyond. Generally, though, beef patties used in burgers are seasoned to match what modern consumers expect meat to taste like, so my best guess for why the non-beef ones would have less flavor is the lack of seasoning.

[@Jonas-Seiler]

exactly what I'm saying. convenience is by far the most important metric here

[@walker1054]

Would be cool to hear about the total land use(uk only and worldwide) of meat and stuff. Then compare to how much it can be reduced if everyone switched just their lunch to plant based meals, and compare that total amount of saved space to how much space we currently use for renewables and if just that extra "free" land could be used to make the world fully renewable or not. Also "why do people eat meat? It's obvious, because it tastes good and for their diet", I'd argue that the main reason is simply because it's whats made most easily avaliable to us and for cheap, otherwise why else would the amount of meat consumed vary so massively between countries? Even similarly wealthy countries. So it's largely cultural too. Most kids start with meat based diets because it's what their parents give them, and most of the time it's the only option. Go to mcdonalds and there isn't much of an option for the kids other than meat. But if Mcdonalds had a basic plant based McNugget alternative then kids might suddenly start going for that. The meat didn't suddenly become worse tasting, it's just that there's now a good easy and similar plant based alternative. If the meat aisle in supermarkets was as small as the plant based alternative section then that'll cause a huge shift too, again no difference in taste. Then theres the price. Plant based can be pricey but why? If they don't need to raise and house and feed a animal for a couple years then why isn't it much cheaper? Ive heard because meat is heavily subsidised but i don't know the facts, this would be interesting as another video too.

[@jamesnorlin1273]

One thing missing from the discussion here is that not all land is the same. You can have sheep or cattle on land that is not suitable for growing corn or wheat.

[@xchopp]

Agreed. Geography seems to be somewhat overlooked in these discussions. It would presumably be quite positive for the incomes of herders on marginal land and/or drylands if unsustainable livestock practices are banned. It will be very difficult to implement these regulations, however ("governments picking winners and losers!"), but not impossible. In the meantime, how about we focus on the big fat 75% of the problem (the red slice in the OWID pie)? Otoh, that pie only shows the breakdown of gross emissions, drawdown isn't factored in.

[@thedamnedatheist]

And how much of animal feed is a by product of human foods.

[@BM1982.V2]

Yeah, but you could also just leave that land to re-wild. Animal agriculture uses 77% of global land yet only produces 18% of global calories. It's estimated we could cut land use for farming by 75% by switching away from animal based foods, especially beef and dairy. So we don't even need that land that isn't suitable for crops. Crops take so much less land that we can just use the land that is already growing crops for animals and just use it to grow crops for humans. We don't need to use the grazing land at all.

[@MattAngiono]

​@BM1982.V2 very much so! I drove across the country to see the eclipse earlier this month and the number of factory farms was disgusting. You could smell them from miles away at times. Imagine all that being turned into healthy grassland or forests. The carbon impacts would be huge as well

[@achenarmyst2156]

You might consume some meat from pasture fed cattle if you do not principally reject animal farming. But the amount that is sustainable is dramatically less than what Westerners consume today. Our basic diet is vegan and we add some regional and organic animal products now and then just for nostalgic reasons 😊

[@javelinXH992]

One thing I’ve always wondered is it possible to mix meat and the alternatives in processed foods? Burgers would be a good example. Would this produce a product that has half the meat impact than a pure meat burger? Or would it just produce a disgusting product no one would touch? Not everyone is prepared to give up meat, so we should be realistic and accept options that reduce rather than 100% remove.

[@yurisei6732]

It would have half the impact, but also no one would buy it. The problem is, if you're comfortable eating a plant-based burger, you're comfortable eating a 100% plant-based burger, and if you're not comfortable eating a plant-based burger, you want 100% meat. There is no target demographic for food that's half plant-based.

[@pattheplanter]

All protein in our diet comes from plant sources, 40% of it comes via animals. Tempeh is great if served with a nut/herby/acid sauce, like lemon/parsley/peanut butter sauce. Edited to add: and fungi, of course, how could I forget my mushroom victims?

[@yurisei6732]

Fish don't eat plants, so anyone who eats fish doesn't get quite all their protein from plant sources. In fact, fish is the only way to harness the material-generating capacity of the oceans.

[@MattAngiono]

Tempeh Reubens are the bomb!

[@Will-kt5jk]

One of the issues I’ve noticed is that some of the meat substitutes have something like 1/5th the protein of what they’re replacing. Others pretty much match the original. Food labelling should be improved to better reflect the nutrient density of the foods, to reduce the perception that all plant-based has less protein/gram.

[@MattAngiono]

Protein isn't that much of a concern in the first place. Just eat until you're full and you've gotten enough of it

[@kasroa]

They're not replacing protein, they replacing the taste and texture of meat. You don't need to eat meat to get all the protein you'll ever need.

[@MattAngiono]

@kasroa another important misconception people need to wake up from. But it's mostly on us vegans, sadly, too inform that plants have PLENTY of protein

[@ntsikayomzimbebe2056]

One thing I often see when talking about climate change levers is people not telling us, "what is good enough" If we look at our per capita carbon budget, which of these levers would bring my carbon budget in line with what we need. Is lab meat good enough? Do I actually have to go vegan? The way I would do this is looking at the typical American's carbon footprint and the proportions from transport, food, etc then scaling that down to our carbon budget. From there, assuming we would keep the same proportions, it gives us the threshold for the individual areas of our lives

[@yurisei6732]

Agreed. It would be harder to figure out from the side of the activists, but giving people a budget for how much emissions they can generate before they don't get to feel good about themselves, letting them choose how they want to spend that budget, would be indescribably more effective in actually reducing carbon emissions than just telling people "no meat" or "no holidays" or "no car". Looking at industries separately just gives people the impression that they aren't allowed to have any fun in life, making them ignore or even loathe the people who say they need to cut back. A personal carbon budget would give a visualisation of the way fun translates into pollution and show that you can actually do quite a lot without being unreasonable. It lets you make choices about what you do - if you want to eat more meat, maybe you cycle to work more often - instead of being absolute. If you genuinely care about people reducing their carbon footprint, you should be advocating for a personal carbon budget system, not for veganism.

[@thelakeman2538]

You just cutting back on meat consumption overtime would probably put you way ahead of the average in a developed country even if you never went vegetarian or vegan. As mentioned in the video labmeats are very new with only a single study on the subject, making it too early for us to realiably know the carbon footprint for.

[@Half_Finis]

"indistinguishable from like your typical beef burger" he says as his burger falls apart at the slightest poke with a fork xD

[@xanders-game]

Aside from the environmental impact, it is hard to put a dollar amount on the value of avoiding animal suffering. For those of us who want to live with kindness and compassion, that is extremely important.

[@MattAngiono]

I agree. That's really the best reason to become vegan. The environmental impact is a somewhat more selfish reason for most people.

[@kasroa]

Indeed. It's important for people watching this video and reading the comments that that veganism is not a diet, and in fact has exactly zero to do with diet, health, or the environment. Plant-based diet is what a vegan eats, but the two are 100% not interchangeable in any way.

[@MattAngiono]

@kasroa a crucial distinction indeed! I'm explaining this constantly, especially in climate related comment threads

[@GoPieman]

tempeh is delicious. some asian shops have larger frozen shops for cheaper - a bit funkier as it has more mold, if you don't mind. worth boiling beforehand.

[@Conus426]

Quorn is awesome, loved it since i was a kid.

[@johnburn8031]

Do be aware that some Quorn products contain egg.

[@MrKelra]

If you are looking for Saitan in Europe, just search for wheat-gluten.... Its literally the same stuff.

[@mirandelf]

Please don’t call tofu ‘fake meat’. Yes it can be used as an alternative to meat and is in ‘fake meat’ products, but it is a food product in its own right which has a long history of use in eastern cultures.

[@Softdattel]

There is no way I'm gonna eat artificial stuff, only naturally produced food comes on my plate.

[@mrgrork]

So eat tofu then

[@SomeoneBeginingWithI]

You don't have to eat pea protein which has been mechanically and chemically converted into a meat-like texture. I don't eat that either, it's not great nutritionally and really only makes sense for people who really want the meat-like texture without the meat. You can skip the industrial processing and cook peas, beans, lentils ect as the plants that they are.

[@laurentziu7895]

I didn't really hear anything related to the health benefits or downsides of vegetable sourced protein. How about the effective protein absorbtion being much lower? Also, how about the the fake meats being effectively ultra-processed foods which are currently leading to a huge obesity crisis in the developed world? Maybe there are other resources to point to on that topic, would be happy to go through those 😊

[@strawberrycheesecake5502]

Maybe in a follow up, you could look into the add-ins for substitute meat as well, like the flavorings, spices, fats etc. that you need to add to the bases to get them to taste nice? Because I can never tell if these are already included in the carbon-footprint. I like the subsitutes, but I'd be cool to have some information on which add-ins to avoid or favor based on a climate perspective.

[@ItWasSaucerShaped]

also, it should be said imho in terms of lab grown meat's cost: that cost - a small car per kg - is probably also the actual cost of premium cuts from a cow. consumers just don't see that cost up front, like so many other carbon-intensive and unsustainable things; it is offloaded into externalities and/or subsidies that we do pay for but are not baked into the butcher shelf price tag

[@FosukeLordOfError]

11:31 the one thing for me is that it has a light peanut flavor (not a bad thing) that makes it slightly different, but like if you seasoned meat with a peanut sauce I wouldn't tell the difference

[@opossumboyo]

I have worked in industrial agriculture my entire life, including animal agriculture. Meat consumption is so ingrained into our society (and our biology!) that I cannot see it being done away with by choice. People just won’t give up their beef and pork without a long-term shift in culture, and we don’t have time for that. And if people want it, the market will provide. And then, speaking about these sorts of things opens up the conversation to those who view meat as a status symbol, and view being unable to access it as opression. The “You will eat bugs” crowd loves when we talk about this sort of thing because it is easy fodder for future arguments against environmental regulations. Not to mention the supply chain that goes into meat consumption; getting rid of large-scale animal agriculture gets rid of a lot of the horticulture we have here as well. You wouldn’t be growing corn and soybeans in a world without pigs to feed, because the main thing those crops go to is feeding animals. Even folks who grow plants will ultimately be against slowing down meat consumption. It’s such a devastating issue to talk about. I always appreciate these videos and I consider you one of the best climate content creators I have seen. I just wish that we could share these topics and have a species-level intervention about things, because without serious conversations about our society we won’t even come close to addressing the issues.

[@pattheplanter]

You get rid of meat and there will be more room for high value crops like nuts and fruits. The prices of all nuts have been rising drastically as the world demand for them has kept pace with the demand for meat.

[@yurisei6732]

You're right, it's likely a problem not solvable before it's too late. Meat is just so integral to so many parts of the global economy and culture. There are small changes we can make that will be beneficial, like ending the deforestation of the amazon, but there's no realistic future where meat production is ended entirely. Even halving it is probably not happening.

[@clehaxze]

I've once worked in Indo and ate a lot of Tempeh there. I like Tempeh much more then Tofu. The texture is much better and it sucks up flavor better. However Tempeh is expensive where I live compared to cheaper chicken meet. Which annoyed me so much because Tempeh is dirt cheap in Indo.

[@bartroberts1514]

Simon makes an excellent point about decarbonizing agricultural energy. Demethanizing agriculture, too, would be awesome to talk about. A 2% diet of seaweed supplements (red algae) can reduce methane production from enteric fermentation in cattle 80%-98%. Some homeopaths attempted to discredit this finding by using 0.001% supplements for a few days on a dozen cattle in Australia, apparently, so perhaps not all research figures are equally well-founded. Making sure agriculture wastes -- plant or animal -- are digested either aerobically or pyrolytically to extract more value from circular agricultural processes would also help reduce GHG impacts. Demethanizing would have an order of magnitude more benefit than switching from animal to plant protein.

[@ericlotze7724]

The demand for seaweed would tie into making Aquaculture (either as a sort of WWT integrated higher tech solution (already done, forget the name but basically just existing seaweed practices done in lakes fed from pumps etc) ideally, or better yet “4D Aquaculture” / Sustainable Aquaculture/ “Aquatic Permaculture” and so on (TLDR: Seaweed Farming Integrated with Muscles/Clams, Integrated with Sustainable management of local fish and so on) more economically viable which would be interesting!

[@themetr0gn0me]

The Australian study used 25mg/kg seaweed extract, yes. Not for a few days, but for 9 months. The reported effect was to reduce methane production by 28% and reduce carcass weight by 15kg. Not sure how you can call this an "attempt to discredit" previous results. Demethanising is fine to aim for, but in the meantime, we have legumes. The best solution is the one that can be implemented.

[@bartroberts1514]

@@themetr0gn0me 25 mg/kg is a far cry from 2%, 9 months seems ambiguous from the study method, and the study you refer to is likely the one with too few cattle and too few controls to be statistically meaningful. Homeopathic doses prove nothing in such a case. There are already cases in Maine, for example, where it is common practice to use such supplements, and the effects are far better than the Australian study suggests. Studies on barriers to such supplementation cite exactly that Australian study as a reason farmers and legislators resist the practice. And sure, there are legumes. Great. There's wheat gluten and protein derived from oats and sorghum. Great. But methane is 88 times more GHE-intensive than CO2 over the time we have left to avoid the worst effects of climate change, and if we can bring down methane emissions as low-hanging fruit, whether from cattle or from anaerobic decomposition of plant matter, whether by capturing it from animal byproducts to replace fossil-sourced methane, or by using pyrolysis on stover to create producer gas, then let's do that, too. Because just switching to tofu because on average tofu is more virtuous isn't a complete solution.

[@themetr0gn0me]

@@bartroberts1514 good thing no one claimed that the study used 2%, then. Can you elaborate on how the study had too few cattle (38 each in the control and test groups) and too few controls?

[@bartroberts1514]

@@themetr0gn0me You've already stipulated homeopathic levels of food, compared to the 2% level used effectively. Everything else about this inadequate study is moot. It tells us nothing about supplementing cattle diet throughout their lives with significant levels of red algae. The study is used by legislators and farmers to resist use of red algae to reduce methane emissions. How can that possibly be something you're in favor of?

[@davelock873]

How do they compare nutritionally? Beef gets its Omega3/omega6 ratio skewed if the cow is grain fed vs grass fed , so I wonder what else happens if you get your sources from grains in the first place . Its protein , but is it first class protein . Are we basically getting like for like nutritionally with these substitutes?

[@laletemanolete]

Do you agree with the claim that a "mediterranian" diet is the best for the environment without being vegan or vegetarian?

[@RobbertvanHaaften]

must be vegan

[@werewolfcountry]

The current data says it is, but if you supplement for the missing fish and dairy and the rest of your diet matches the mediterranian diet that the scientists describe, then in theory, you shouldn't be that far off the ideal diet that they set out. You shouldn't be eating that much animal protein on the mediterranian diet anyway and red meat is not necessary when following this diet (excluding rare health circumstances).

[@laletemanolete]

@@RobbertvanHaaften not everyone can be vegan for health related, geographical or economical reasons. If you comeback with the "claim" that eating animals is inhumane, then tell all predators in all the ecosystems of the planet to stop hunting, because you know, their prey can feel pain.

[@jbmurphy4]

I saw a study saying a vegan who occasionally eats meat/eggs is the most optimum solution. In this case it meant having chickens on your vegetable farm. The chickens were able to create egg protein from sources that would otherwise be wasted. And when they get too old you eat them rather than waste them.

[@weird-guy]

Red meat is expensive thats why we don’t use it often, it’s all comes to back to economics, people would eat more fish and smoked meat. You know what old people eat in olden days for breakfast “sopa de cavalo cansado” meaning soup of tired horse it’s made with stale bread,wine and egg. flour soup was also comum ect. We also are a rice country but that because we colonized asia , meanwhile mos of Europe is potato country and Italy is a pasta one Only later meat because more of a staple as people got richer.

[@gcvrsa]

The figures that Dr. Ritchie presents are extremely misleading. The US, Australia, Brazil, and Argentina, for instance, export a very large percentage of the meat raised in those countries. It's also extremely misleading to present "land use" as an area measurement, because not all land is equally useful for all purposes. It is not possible to make a one for one substitution. Cattle grazing lands, at least in the US, are largely marginal lands that are not useful for agricultural crops or really any other purposes. The use of these lands for livestock grazing does not in any way impact other land uses. Nor do the charts presented take into account nutritional value. Tofu is not a nutritional substitute for beef. Focusing solely on one macroutrient is irresponsibly bad science, not to mention the fact that "protein" is not a monolithic macronutrient, but a concatenation of dozens of amino acids in differing balances from differing sources. Ultimately, the unasked and unanswered question here is, "Are lower carbon foods a net benefit to overal human well-being and self-actualization?" It's not at all clear that lower carbon foods offer any real benefits, despite their likely lower carbon footprints, because, once again, foods aren't all nutritionally equivalent, and I haven't even begun to raise the question of how industrialized food substitutes disempower individual farmers and empower megacorporations. What is abundantly clear is that we must eat less food, we must waste less food, we must process less food, and we must grow less food, period. What is even more clear is that our foodways are a relatively small proportion of global environmental impacts compared to primary energy uses, such as transport, building HVAC, and industrial consumption, plus the whopping 13.6% of all global emissions shown in the chart which are accounted for by "fugitive emissions from energy production" and "unallocated fuel combustion", all of which are interdependent and all of which we can much more easily dramtically reduce through better public policy design, particularly through taxation structure reform and land policy reform.

[@DanielF601]

I don't completely buy the beef land use argument. Here in Australia, beef cattle are typically farmed on vast stations (ranches) on extremely poor and dry land. The good arable land is used for orchards and intensive farming, the marginal land is used for crops and sheep. Only the really crappy land is used for beef. I believe the pattern is similar worldwide. So, is beef really "taking up" all that land? Or is it actually finding a productive use for scrubland that couldn't possibly be used for anything else? Honest use of statistics would demand some way to account for land quality, not just land area.

[@tiddlypom2097]

Four corners had an episode some years back about Australian agriculture. The fact is that the cattle are sent to intensive feed lots and feed grain for at least some of their life. It's just more cost effective. That's before we even get into the increasing rate of droughts and floods, and the accompanying reports with farmers on TV with all the animals dying. We really need to reappraise agriculture in Australia.

[@tealkerberus748]

@@tiddlypom2097 We could start by banning feedlots except as a drought survival plan for livestock. If the animals don't get fat on the land they were bred on, just don't fatten them before slaughter! All that fat isn't good for us anyway. More Australians need to start growing more of their own food in their own back yards. Fewer swimming pools, more vegetable gardens and chooks. And if we really want to fix the inland environment, we need to ban growing cotton and rice in this country. The growers in the upper Darling claim that they're only doing that opportunistically when there's a wet year, but the water they trap and keep in a wet year is what the Murray river depends upon to flush its accumulated salts out to sea.

[@colsylvester639]

Good food institute was one that was way under my radar - thanks for bringing it to our attention!

[@jackgreene5663]

By far the most important factor in lab-grown (& factory-grown) meat is never discussed: what is the input, the feed-stock, ie what goes in to make it? 1) mown field grass = 10 out of 10 public acceptance.

[@pattheplanter]

Not much evidence of effective, cheap vegan tissue culture nutrients for their Cultured Animal Tissue meat. How many are still using juiced baby cow?

[@computerfan1079]

Great video! I tried the recipe and, while I fudged the ratios a bit which made too salty, I like it enough to try it as a cheaper meat replacement than fake meat.

[@someguy2135]

As the video mentioned, the global population will continue to rise as will the demand for protein, etc. Ending animal agriculture and dropping biofuels could feed an additional four billion people according to this study from the University of Minnesota. Title- "Existing cropland could feed four billion more by dropping biofuels and animal feed"

[@weird-guy]

How? We already have enough food to feed everyone. Why aren’t Africans eating soy products then?

[@maddieyoungman7859]

As a researcher in the food system and the climate crisis, this is a fantastic video! Thank you! Its so great that you had Hannah Ritchie, the good food institute, and that 2018 poore and nemecek article as sources in this video. Right on

[@limeyjoe1632]

I'm not convinced that ultra processed fake meat is particularly good for you. I prefer reduced meat consumption in combination with organic regenerative agriculture, and animals like sheep reared naturally on land that is not appropriate for growing crops - hilly, or not very fertile land for example.

[@mrgrork]

So eat tofu then.

[@dogestcreature]

Realistically, people who are watching this video are more climate conscious, and therefore are more willing to substitute the meat in their diets with these alternatives. The problem is the 50% of the "opposition" (you know who I'm talking about) that just will push things like carnivore diets just to "own the libs". Lab grown meat has even been banned in a certain US state. I doubt they will opt for that even if it is better for the world. Remember, we're dealing with people who PAY MONEY to make modifications to their vehicles, making them pollute more just to "own the libs".

[@EfHaichDee]

No mention of the foetal bovine serum...

[@Empiriarch1945]

Tempeh dipped in garlic and salt for 10 minutes before getting fried tastes amazing, if you just fry it, it has no taste XD