Singapore's Double-Team Footblock & Flow Analysis

[@nivlanauk]

1.2.1. If there is a deliberate or egregious breach of the rules or Spirit of the Game, the captains should discuss this and determine an appropriate outcome, even if that outcome is not in accordance with a specific rule. Annotation 1.2.1 Example: A defender intentionally double teams the thrower, with no regard for any other offensive players, and gets a block. Result: Captains may choose to return the disc to the thrower.

[@Gudalskaross]

Can I like this a thousand times!

[@njyo]

💯 Tho I wish @Hive Ultimate would mention the rule in the video. Interestingly, that also entails that the rules try to encode the spirit of the game to the best of their abilities, hence the intent (spirit) of the rules matters more than the wording.

[@stencil25]

The increased width of AUDL fields, compared to standard Ultimate fields, allows the rules to include Double Team defense. This is also why you seldom see zone defence employed in the AUDL. I'd suppose that AUDL, PUL can write their rules and be confident in their players being highly skilled and experienced. Rules from the WFDF affect every format and level of Ultimate: Double Teams would ruin the game at low levels of play, and probably the majority of mixed games too, purely based on average height. It would be boring and annoying to be involved in.

[@domstafford1894]

I think elite mixed would cope fine, in my experience most short FMPs just get good at throwing under their marks rather than over them. But yeah, most beginners have enough trouble with a single person standing there and shouting numbers at them, double teams would really make it hard to get people into the sport...

[@Gameboob]

I think the double team call should be a call anyone on offense can make. Not so that someone way downfield calls it but so that it allows a handler reset to take on that job instead of the handler in situations like this

[@inkor]

I call double teams in our pick-up game as need, as it works great since the newer players on offense don't know to call it and the newer players on defense do it unintentionally. So it that situation it get everyone moving and we just play on.

[@carcosa_tyrant9444]

any turn that's a result of a doubleteam should also be treated as a marking foul. the fact that someone can double team just out of sight and make a block that can't be overturned is hot dog shit.

[@gavinangus5518]

15.5. In general only the thrower may claim an infraction, by calling the specific name of the infraction. 15.5.1. However any offensive player may call a double team, and any defensive player may call a travel infraction. You're thought is already the rules.

[@tamir727]

I agree with other posters that intentional double teaming is a violation of the SOTG rule (violations are assumed to be unintentional) and that a thrower should be able to call an infraction occurring during a throw retroactively (perhaps a "vision", "straddle", or "wrapping" which results in a block without contact would fall under this category, too). The main problem I see with allowing double teams is the amount of contact that would result. Double teams in the AUDL often result in the thrower having (choosing?) to push between two large, active defenders with lots of contact. Would this result in lots of "contact" or "foul" calls, slowing the game to a crawl? Perhaps. Furthermore, would you then propose to allow triple teams? Quadruple teams? This would again result in lots of exciting, well-executed upside-down throws, but also plenty more contact. In any case, as long as ultimate is a philosophically (perhaps not practically across all levels and divisions) non-contact sport, removing the double team rule (or the pick rule, as proposed by other posters) would seem at odds with that philosophy.

[@curtisclack9067]

Please don't call 0:55 "No Where near a travel. The dude already walked around the world and lifted and moved his pivot foot 3 times.

[@carcosa_tyrant9444]

it's felix. at this point i'm convinced the dude gets off on making bad takes.

[@russallen9342]

@00:59 when you say it's not a travel, just rewind the clip. He resets his pivot completely to gain advantage for the next throw. @1:23, receiver travel, change of direction, rounding

[@TheAussieaustin]

imo the first travel doesn't actually give him any noteable advantage

[@johndoherty4553]

​@@TheAussieaustin I hear people say this a lot, but then you have to ask, would a person be able to throw as well if they had to put an extra emphasis on actually keeping their foot on the ground where it's supposed to be. To me travels always impact the throw, because how do we know the person can throw correctly when they don't travel. Yes I'm sure 90+% of the time, it wouldn't matter, but if you start trying to ''draw the line'' it can get tricky. I'm playing at a decent level for 13 years and I've never called it, but I still think if a foot lifts during a throw, it matters, and I'd never accept someone saying ''did it impact the throw'' if it was against my team in a game, even if it's two wide open players 10 meters apart. If it's called a travel, make it go back and throw it properly. This never happened either. But to me travel impacting the play is much more important than ''how did the contact impact such and such'', although maybe some people have the flip side view to me. Lol, I work hard to try not travel, I ain't letting someone else get off easy ;)

[@TheAussieaustin]

@@johndoherty4553 I hear what you're saying, but I'm almost certain 90% of travels are accidental and just bad habits that people have formed, If people dedicate a bit of time to reducing their travels, i don't think it would end up affecting how they would have thrown the disc

[@drip2245]

Allowing double teams would be horrible for new players or even intermediate players that aren't as comfortable on the disc. Imo the rules need a tweak to disallow this explicitely and in this situation the players should have recognized it was against sotg

[@user-ed1vk9xr6d]

How was that 'nowhere near a travel??' He lifts his pivot foot and changes direction before taking off. Removing the 'double team' rule would ruin Mixed ultimate for FM players and reduce inclusion in handling roles as it would be so challenging to throw overheads over much taller opponents and many of us rely on fakes and low release breaks to break a zone but this would be difficult against double teams. Many MM can throw massive pitch length hammers but it is rare for FM to have this ability.

[@littlelauchie]

They do have good movement and chemistry but the travels are just outrageous with the regular advantage 33 gets from them 😢

[@carcosa_tyrant9444]

traveling in asian ultimate culture is just egregious. they basically never call it, so they never condition themselves to try and not do it. it's not just 33. look at just about anyone on their team. lots of little hops while faking and pivoting. often taking a huge lunge after momentum is gone to establish a pivot somewhere. turning with momentum after a catch. it's blatant and frequent.

[@iangough8874]

The illegal double team block is arguably a foul, as it looks like he kicked the disc before she had fully released it.. the replays from behind show it best

[@inkor]

Not arguably. I think it's very clearly a foul as the thrower had come nowhere near clear in completing her throwing motion. We can't fault the people there since we have the advantage of hindsight from multiple angles even. From this snippet it's hard to have much respect for the player who committed the double team and a strip at the same time.

[@illumi1011]

player 33 intentionally double-teamed. intentionally breaking rules is violation of spirit of the game, plain and simple.

[@squidge903]

It's cheating

[@godlywrath1084]

your mother is cheating on your father

[@CryptoInfo47]

Quit crying 😂

[@illumi1011]

@@CryptoInfo47 lol game's obviously not for the likes of you

[@tom_brady]

We need oberservers that have the power to distribute cards to players that knowingly or repeatedly break the rules.

[@domstafford1894]

In my rather limited experience of watching international ultimate (and not being nearly good enough to play at that level), u24s does seem to have slightly worse spirit than the senior divisions. I guess the fact the players are younger means their rules knowledge possibly isn't as good, then the fact that it's the first full international tournament for many, and also possibly the last of they're not sure they'll make the senior national team, can lead to a bit of a "win at all costs" mentality

[@Baking_baked]

Been playing against Singapore teams for the last 12 years here in SE asia. We meet before the games and talk about recognizing the travels. They have been notorious travelers for as long as ultimate has been in Singapore. Part of that is the high pace

[@dthero1]

you sound like the kinda guy that will call a travel on a full field scoring huck if the pivot foot moved 1mm. because that small distance gave the thrower a huge advantage yeah? lets also ignore every other clip of non singaporean teams travelling and throw a general statement base on 10 seconds of it mentioned in this video. stay hating.

[@russallen9342]

@@dthero1 that guy travels three times during that possession

[@Baking_baked]

@@dthero1 not at all.. but if youve spent time playing singapore teams like Shiok and Freakshow you go in there with that in mind. Especially when they consistently change direction away from defenders and travel around marks. thats literally the definition of why its a rule. its not about stopping flow, its about whether the play is used to break a mark

[@Baking_baked]

@@dthero1 and keep in mind, notice i mention nothing about Japan who Singapore emulates a bit style wise. They dont do the same thing. You go to any tournament in Taiwan, malaysia, philippenes , china, the teams prepare for singapore the same way. its very widely known. In the past was also a very serious issue with sportsmanship and poor calls but ive noticed big positive changes in recent years from the younger gen coming out of there.

[@squidge903]

Anyone who plays Singapore knows this is a regular thing. It's a regular thing for other teams too, but also Singapore

[@georgelane6350]

That is one of the worst spirited single plays I think I've seen: Probably a strip Definitely an intentional double team Plays through the call Uses a technical error in the rules to their advantage I think allowing double teams would be terrible for gender equity in mixed. Female matching handlers already notice marginal double teams in zone much more than male matching players. The concept exists in other sports too. In netball defenders must keep a 3 foot gap , which effectively leaves a window even when double teamed.

[@curtisclack9067]

The same dude with the poor spirit illegal double team. :55 Travels twice, changing direction on the catch and moving up line and then lifts and moves his pivot foot twice. 2:58 Travels twice 3:07 Travel, Four points of contact and he lifts his pivot. Illegal throw in motion.

[@georgelane6350]

3:07 isn't a travel. He receives the disc, immediately slows down in a straight line and releases the disc. After releasing, he springs off the pivot foot. The other ones are egregious ones that will never get called. That ones a clean one that will get called.

[@JudithBeckedorf]

Let common sense overrule the rules.

[@mikeoxlong917]

This is why observers are a thing, especially at high levels of play. You can't have two, clearly partial parties, be the only deciders in calls that can decide the game. Especially when many of them have a clear "winning side" in a contest.

[@tusharjamwal]

As long as the rules say no Double Team, I think the rules should also allow for calling the Double Team after the throw just like a foul on the throw would be called. But personally I think double teams should be allowed because Ultimate is very offence dominant. This is also why I think that disallowing the pick is good.

[@Mellowyellow8888]

please tell me what other game/sport is not "offence dominated".. literally like NBA, NFL... all the games have rules where offence rules.. there are barely any sports where you get points for doing something on defence and not regaining possession to become the offence.. only thing i can think of off the top of my head is getting a "safety" in the NFL..