Sir Roger Scruton on Lady Gaga

Sir Scruton commenting on Lady Gaga's Poker Face. He mentions it is one note and repetitive. However, Gaga would probably defend it by saying it (her whole act) is supposed to be 'gagagaga', as a poker face in musical terms might be perceived as being monotone.
The fact is, what Scruton is saying, can be applied to the whole dumbing down of culture. Analogous and exemplified by his well earned knighthood, and Lady Gaga just claiming the title...
Taken from The Hildebrand Legacy lecture "Beauty in A World of Ugliness" - • Roger Scruton: Beauty ...
The Jordan Peterson tag is just in the hope that the many watching his videos will graduate onto Roger Scruton's teaching.

[@PrincipledUncertainty]

That moment you realise, Sir Roger Scruton knows the name of a metal band that you've never heard of.

[@andyisdead]

Sir Roger Scruton

[@PrincipledUncertainty]

@@andyisdead I amended my comment. Thanks for the correction

[@booklist123123]

Oh yes, quite right good sir! SLAYERRRRRRRRRR.

[@Floral_Green]

Well, they do say that Progressive Rock/Metal is ‘music for the thinking man’, but I must admit that I was taken aback at Sir Scruton’s mere knowledge of such bands

[@davey1602]

I was with him right up to that point. Metal was never about how many bars you can fit in - even speed metal doesn't do that. I appreciate Rock n' Roll for its philosophical messages as well as great riffs and rhythms. At least it's not all about sex.

[@antielite5379]

This is so profound - “to get there you’ve got to go through this thing which frightens them, and that thing is silence’. Man isn’t that the truth

[@Gotchaaaaaa]

I was about to comment on the same and saw yours. Good lord. What a line from our Rog’.

[@mylessterrett]

Scruton dropping Spiral Architect made my day haha

[@progfox]

yup

[@serpentines6356]

Never heard of them. Until now!!!

[@n0ah_m309]

@@serpentines6356they’re amazing definitely very philosophical on songs like cloud constructor. But it is sort of a head spin lol 😂

[@KrunoslavStifter]

“Proper teaching is recognized with ease. You can know it without fail because it awakens within you that sensation which tells you this is something you have always known.” ― Frank Herbert, Dune

[@bluesque9687]

The first time i heard Sir Roger Scruton, i was an immediate convert because he strikes down the thick and tenacious cobwebs of our age with a machete and shows us beauty again. Rest in Peace, Sir Roger Scruton. We miss you and we treasure your work.

[@hausacat]

In the longevity stakes. The money is obviously on Bach.

[@BobSmith-df2ko]

Not necessarily.

[@hausacat]

@@BobSmith-df2ko lol

[@djicepole]

@@BobSmith-df2ko True. But less likely.

[@Sanctified57]

Yep you would be baching up the wrong tree with Gaga

[@abrahampalmer1153]

Indeed Js Bach music is so much better psychologically than any pop music in history of music universally.

[@p3r1n1]

I always respected Sir Scrutton, but when he dropped Spiral Architect into the conversation, he ascended to my inner pantheon

[@cerveshred]

Spiral Architect is eternal

[@LukeFaulkner]

I know which I’d prefer in a nightclub. Bach. BMV 889 is my jam.

[@SP-qi8ur]

Nothing like praeludiae shots

[@yamabushi170]

BWV 998, lute suite performed by Julian Bream

[@ProgrammeringPC]

Yeah I love Bach too and I am so clever...

[@ProgrammeringPC]

@@benisrood Call me Sir

[@ProgrammeringPC]

@@benisrood Thank you

[@tipofmytongue1024]

Y'all don't get it, Lady Gaga is in on the joke....it's the ideal of post modernism. She's just playing the part. That's corporate music industry, period.

[@AndyMacaskill]

I get it. I agree. Calvin Harris treats it like a science. He studied how to make a number 1.

[@Popexify]

Post Modernism cannot be an exception for judgement, in fact it must be put into judgement in order to attain excelence. In this case fail miserably and the only thing left is the greed, so Post Modernism is just a snobbery reflection of human greed, there is no beauty even if is a "Game" which is a poor excuse to put on the table.

[@warlordy]

Completely stunned that he knows Spiral Architect!

[@andyisdead]

He loves architecture. There's the connection

[@lsjt8924]

Ahh, I only came here to say I wish good luck to that poor teacher, and I simply love Sir Roger Scruton. 💕

[@arius1]

I could listen to Bach all day long but I wouldn't sleep with him.

[@bronktug2446]

Arius ... right.

[@MovieRiotHD]

How can you get in trouble for this? What's wrong with the US and UK?

[@bellorusso]

"What's wrong with the US and UK?" Everything?

[@AlistairIsCool]

You can't and practically no one does

[@tomstokoe5660]

@@AlistairIsCool That teacher said he had to have meetings with parents about what he said as if he'd done something wrong, are you calling him a liar?

[@FixedFace]

iCQ.www-SPCL-tk you will go the way of south africa. they will burn you to the ground

[@danielmachado5576]

Guys, you dont know Brazil...

[@stumbling]

Did you know that the word, "scrutonize", was named after Sir Roger Scruton? I know this because I just made it up. Sadly, "scrutinize", is not named after him.

[@sagenunion7417]

This made me laugh 😆

[@sprezzatura8755]

It is unfortunate today that pop music seems so banal and simplistic. Not so long ago young people had the Beatles and many other terrific bands that captured raw youthful energy, while still having real and durable musical value. It's worth acknowledging that the latest brain studies reveal that the judgement portion of the human brain is not fully developed until about the age of 26. So we do need to cut young people some slack in their general taste. But God help you if you still find Lady Gaga compelling in middle age.

[@hugomaritz692]

the test of time is one of the best ways to judge this. shallow art amuses for a moment.

[@Santos.Sarmento]

This happens in several areas. Movies for example, with children's heroes, without a story, only visual effects. Books replaced by video games, with a poor flat narrative, elaborate cuisine replaced by fast food, or worse, packaged snacks. Comparing Bach with Lady Gaga in music is like comparing a Rolls Royce with a bicycle when it comes to transportation or champagne with Coke. My great-uncle who was a conductor always said, "A song is not good if it can not be whistled!"

[@asym52]

You know that one of the greatest (!) singers of the twentieth century, Cathy Berberian, could not whistle.

[@Santos.Sarmento]

@@asym52 I'm talking about the melody, a very poor song can not be whistled. The vast majority of people have a simple taste so they can not listen to pure music, they can only understand poetry sung as is the case pointed out by Sruton. Cathy Berberian could not whistle and Beethoven could not hear when he finished the ninth symphony, these limitations have nothing to do with real good music.

[@andyisdead]

Simple taste? Melodies must be simple if they are to whistled. I've never seen anybody whistle a complex Schoenberg tune.

[@ronsdad3736]

I will say there surely are games with great complex storylines, like Baldur's Gate.. but I agree with you

[@VV-sque]

One thing people continously fail to realise is that video games are NOT like any other medium - they're not here to have a narrative, deep plot with a moral or to be symbolical. They can, obviously, but the point of the game is to play, have fun. Basically, in most cases, narrative is added after the game was created. Games that focus solely on narrative (like for example Beyond Two Souls, Heavy Rain, Detroit Become Human) are more like an interactive film than a game. In other words, comparing video games to books, art or film is incorrect.

[@PooyaRadbon]

He is so right. With such people who can not (by themselves) understand what music is good, what is better and what is bad and worse for us (our mind, our soul) one has to speak like a child! with children language and hope they can understand...alas, I believe even this way won't work. Since they have no understanding but just superfluous feelings they will either insult you or fight back or in the best case do not show their anger so they will hate you! I usually do not argue with anyone about these things for have had enough of enemies of this kind. Childish world :(

[@markfennell1167]

Trying to compare the quality of one art piece to another can be very difficult. However some artists do have a greater level of sophistication than others. The beach boys and the Bee Gees for example we’re both pop artists in a sense but their musical arrangements could be very complex

[@andyisdead]

Antonio Carlos Jobim

[@bluegent7]

Having higher standards than your surroundings brings forth condemnation. It's an interesting phenomena. Example: - "Coitus before marriage increases risk of divorce statistically." - "So, you think you're better than the rest of us, eh?"

[@abrahampalmer1153]

Indeed that's why you can't hang around with anyone nowadays because they have no standards and moral code to begin with and accept anything face value.

[@georgemargaris]

crabs in a bucket mentality.... also explains communism.... everyone must be equally miserable

[@andrewryan9932]

"Coitus before marriage increases risk of divorce statistically." Only if you confuse correlation with causation.

[@gabrielbarblay8120]

He said spiral architect. This man knows what's good

[@jonathanwarner1844]

Comparing Bach to Lady Gaga is like comparing a cathedral to a modern house. They are appropriate to their uses and they communicate and serve completely different messages and uses. One is obviously loftier, and built with greater effort and skill, than the other. But one cannot stay in the cathedral on a permanent basis. Lady Gaga is a multimedia artist, bringing together fashion, film art and music. However many notes, or words one needs to use, depends on what one intends to say.

[@AndyMacaskill]

I appreciate your analogy. However, I'd be inclined to say music is something we consume. Like, food for the soul. Not something we live in. Fast food or junk food is in terms of taste fairly mono-tone - it's just highly processed, so it goes down easily and you feel great for five minutes. Kids reared on junk food will never develope their palette to appreciate complex flavours. Never truly have to chew for that first stage of digestion.

[@labibasahlah]

Lady Gaga is just shit

[@dandare1001]

It's funny, because I find both Bach and Lady Gaga pretty uninspiring, with the edge going to Bach, if we are talking technical music. Scruton may have a point about repetitive rhythms being more hypnotic, and possibly addictive, but I wouldn't value his views on music much more than his views on religion. I do like to hear him speak, though. He always found a way to insult others' views and to denigrate them in a very gentle way. A good snake oil salesman but very easy to see through.

[@chazzer56]

I am impressed that Roger Scruton actually gives an example of Lady Gaga's music, it makes me respect him even more than I already do, which is a lot. However I can't entirely get in line with him on this point. I can derive as much pleasure listening to the Beatles as I would from Bach, or from AC/DC as Psychedelic Trance. Bangin'!

[@dago87able]

chazzer56 If it's not accurate, then I believe it's not much of an example. Pokerface is simply not sung in one note, as Scruton inaccurately claims. The verse is indeed partially sung in one note, not the rest of the song. Gaga's vocal range in the song spans from notes F♯3 to B4. Scruton then, based on this first inaccurate claim, makes a second claim stating that there is no melody. This is just plain wrong. Melody, to provide a short definition, is a rythmic succession of single tones organized as an aesthetic whole. The essential elements of any melody are duration, pitch, and quality (timbre), texture, and loudness. This characteristics and elements can objectively be found in the song. Nonetheless, by that same definition there can and indeed do exist real one note melodies. Here's the link to a very illustrative video on this topic, kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnm5qHuBe7GSg5I. To get ahead of possible replies to this post, please note that I have not made any value judgement on the music here so far, nor compare it to any other piece, genre or period. I'm just trying to lay out accurately some facts, which I find of the essence when engaging in rational conversation that aspires to intelectual rigor. Cheers.

[@Greylin91]

Scruton loves his metallica too!

[@BenWeeks]

Gaga sings a jazz standard live. Very strong. Changed how I saw her. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5nYf6V-dtSoY6c

[@gregorystolk818]

What a thoughtful answer.

[@Jonnie-Falafel]

Roger Scruton completely confounded my expectations!!

[@m3bmuadib]

I love that he mentions Spiral Architect in contrast to Lady Gaga. But I have to disagree, you do get addicted to quality music such as S.A. :-)

[@addersdewinter1141]

I do think that he did not compare like for like for example two average singers like Lady Ga Ga and Madonna vs two good singers like Karen Carpenter and Dusty Springfield (distinctive voices with variation, warmth, tone). And then compare two classical composers. The idea about silence is the stumbling block to most people's minds.

[@tau7260]

Hearing Sir Scruton speak to this gentleman's question, made me think that the "popular" music of the last many years now, is manufactured not created, packaged not presented, and sold to the public like any other commodity. Young people like it not for its quality or distinctiveness, but because it is like everything else they are forced to buy and consume.

[@chelseapoet3664]

I really like Scruton but he doesn't do himself any favours by saying that Poker Face is sung on one note. That is simply bollocks. With respect!

[@chelseapoet3664]

@Dogman My point wasn't whether or not Gaga is any good. I honestly don't care. My point was that he undermines his argument when he says the song was "sung on one note". It reveals that, whether or not it is any good according to you or anyone else, he hasn't actually listened to it.

[@dago87able]

Chelsea Poet This guy Dogman is a nazi (yes, check out his channel and you'll understand). So when he speaks of degenerate art he means what nazis meant. I just took a peek into your channel (Chelsea Poet's) and I'm pretty sure that he considers your musical tastes degenerate as well, let alone You and I as individuals.

[@dago87able]

You are right about Scruton's "one note" claim. I was just going to post a comment on the main section setting the record as straight as possible on the formal characteristics of the song.

[@FixedFace]

dago87able you sound like a disabled gay mudman, no wonder you hate the naz1s

[@ravenandthecrow]

This was a great and an enlightening video. Thank you. I never realised that about LAdy Gaga.

[@katelewis536]

Awesome...loved this

[@dhiyanx]

There is only one measure of the music:does it get you high?

[@festerboyle4840]

The emotional response to music is everything. Intellectual appreciation of a cleverly constructed piece of music is one thing, but if the work doesn't move the listener then it's not music, it's just clever noise. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6S0iq2mhK2jn80

[@Vmvmvmvmvn]

The teacher committed the anachronistic mistake of compared Bach with Lady Gaga. Its like compared Bicycle thieves with Birdman and complain about how Birdman is a bad drama movie because its not dramatic enough. If u want to criticize Lady Gaga music u need at least to know what she is trying to do which is something totally different from what Bach was trying to do. The teacher wants to criticize modern music but without modernize his ears.

[@pemtinify]

One form of music is located about the groin the other about the head - or should I say the heart-mind.

[@7co703]

Music is art, art is aesthetic, aesthetic is intrinsically subject. Game over. Consensus is not the same thing as true. Just because 99% of people agrees that something is beutiful, doesn't mean there is a fact of matter about it. It's just human perception and if depends on human, is not objective.

[@AndyMacaskill]

Do the notes in music rely on human perception?

[@dhiyanx]

A STAR IS BORN

[@Samsgarden]

Objectively so?

[@TheCrusaderRabbits]

He had a great sense of humour

[@tarawhite4419]

I can't get over how much like Robert redford scruton looks

[@lupcokotevski2907]

Lady Gaga should do a biopic of the genius New York singer/songwriter Laura Nyro, whose admirers included Leonard Bernstein and Miles Davis. Nyro wrote complex songs, such as December's Boudoir with nearly 40 chords, and New York Tendaberry. One of Nyro's influences was Debussy, and also opera.

[@blackmore4]

I love her 'Eli & the 13th Confession' album. For me though, that was her peak. I do enjoy some of 'New York Tendaberry' & 'Christmas & the Beads of Sweat' but that relentless godamned key of C! All of her expressive elaborate whimsy just disappears into a repetitive blur.

[@lupcokotevski2907]

@@blackmore4 😊

[@everest001]

Thanks for this.

[@antielite5379]

One of the most profound things i’ve heard,

[@jackdomanski6758]

Tell me somethin’, girl.

[@georger64]

I always like to ask: if you had never heard of the artist and never seen the music video, would you still like this song?

[@BenWeeks]

It's a strong pop hook. While it's one note the syncopation holds interest. This is how pop has always functioned. For the masses. Hound Dog and Hard Day's Night were scandalous in their day too. As were perhaps some of the classical composers we new view as traditional.

[@tconnelly138]

Brilliant answer.

[@gladysrodriguez5498]

RIP. I LOVE HIM!

[@msinvincible2000]

out of curiosity, I searched for this song. After less than 1 minute, I couldn't continue, I needed to clean and ease my ears, so I listened to ABBA's The winner takes it all

[@progfox]

weak. spiral architect rules

[@ronsdad3736]

Yeah, I think you guys should listen to Spiral Architect, might just change your life.

[@charlesbronson8112]

It has to be taught slowly, to understand Bach you must have some conception of the musical forms and how he uses them, for most people nowadays a fugue is some incomprehensible jumble of melodys that goes on for a while and then stops, once you can hear all the different lines simultaneously it really begins to reveal its beauty.

[@TheHipClip]

But music taste is subjective. It's not about what is better technique-wise but what sounds better to the listener's ears even if it is temporary. I never liked my friends' music, mostly hip-hop and rap, but I would never have tried to change their taste because I didn't understand it. If I played someone the more experimental electronic music that I listen to now, most would go "What the hell is this". And I would understand it. It's everything not described by Sir Scruton but I still love it.

[@vaderetro264]

TheHipClip One's taste is subjective to a degree and varies over time. Knowledge and understanding can greatly affect our natural perceptions. 'Subjective' doesn't mean 'right' or 'non-debatable'.

[@MrAmojo]

What does he mean by going thru silence?

[@gabrielorville821]

This may be worth considering you can either play melody or rythym, they don't quite co-exist that well - Even more so in that type of music.

[@77777aol]

Bach the pioneer of Jazz.

[@yahulwagoni4571]

Ragtime, maybe, Joplin applied counterpoint to off-the-bear rhythms.

[@BobSmith-df2ko]

And this shows why most philosophers are redundant.

[@michaelwu7678]

Bob Smith How does it show this?

[@krokigrygg]

The intellectual depth (and emotional depth for that matter) in Bachs music is greater when compared to Lady Gaga, but does it mean it is more valuble? Compare Dostojevskij to Astrid Lindgren, is there an intellectual difference (in terms of depth etc) in their works? however i still greatly value Astrid Lindgren for the works she has done. It is not to undermine, it is just fact (or am i wrong?), like my poor English.

[@BidlaBuh]

I'm certain that scruton would hold lindgrens books in high regard. Certainly there can be beauty in simplicity. But that is not what Lady Gaga is striving for. It's empty extravaganza, that's the opposite of artful simplicity.

[@BobSmith-df2ko]

@@BidlaBuh Bollocks.

[@brucebooher2288]

Not that is a true display of brilliance.

[@remoteviewer57]

Who Is Lady Gogga?

[@wingitprod]

Ah Bach 💜

[@Marrebrylle]

Scruton is such an old geezer. many and I say many classical composer had similiar compositional techniques as lady gaga. To be perfectly honest bach was a very limited composer and also the baroque period was limited - FOLKS! WE HAD MILD VARIATIONS OF THE SAME BASS LINE FOR ALMOST 150 YEARS!! Also the monotony in poker face is contrasted in the bridge and chorus, it resolves.

[@haimbenavraham1502]

A once, wise man.

[@vaknyuszi]

How the hell did youtube know I read scruton?

[@Doutsoldome]

They know EVERYTHING! /joke

[@jamesgreenldn]

Big Google is watching you

[@360pack]

For the last year I have been documenting videos that synchronistically or coincidentally appear in my youtube feed within a short period of time after either thinking about or talking with someone about said subject (not in the vicinity of my laptop and I do not use a smart phone). I discount any video that comes from my subscriptions, any subject that I have ever, not only searched for on youtube, but used any search engine whatsoever for or for that matter ever even looked up by using key words related to that subject. So cross pollinated cookies should not come into play. Now that I think of it, I have been using two different laptops in different areas of this world since I have been paying attention to this phenomenon. I have 7 full note cards of video subjects and started my 8th this morning - I have left out any questionable videos during this experiment and have surely missed many. I am not concerned or wary but genuinely intrigued by what is going on. Most people that I know would think this is crazy so there is no point in discussing it with them but I am open to hearing other people's stories or their hypothesis related to this subject.

[@joeavent5554]

After serving in two combat theaters and one peacekeeping tour, I want silence. I despise fireworks on 4 July. Vehicles backfiring make me want to get into the prone position. I have never appreciated classical music more than ever.

[@lawmaker22]

Lady gaga is amazing talebtrd musician, she just sometimes useing it wrong... But look her in a star is born movie, wow, what a songs and her performance

[@angelosasso1653]

Spiral Architect is just a completely different dimension in musical terms.

[@peterdixon7734]

How does he explain Ivor Cutler?

[@truthlivingetc88]

Ivor Cutler is easily explained - functional disequilibrium masquerading itself as proof of aesthetic expression. I quite "like" his music though.

[@peterdixon7734]

@@truthlivingetc88 Perhaps the analysis of Cutler is correct, but it is the functional disequilibrium of all, and no man "owned" it like he.

[@KD-vb9hh]

There is a melody in Poker Face, and more than three chords. And Bach is repetitive.

[@Floral_Green]

Objectively wrong. You clearly aren’t versed in even basic musical theory, and that’s on you.

[@KD-vb9hh]

@@Floral_Green I'm not very well versed in musical theory - but even I can tell that there is a melody in Poker Face. Hum the chorus to yourself. That's a melody. The verses have a lot of repetition of that one note, but there's some variation there too. Also, as the original poster commented, monotone can have an interesting effect musically. And I just thought out some of the chords. Yes, there are more than three of them! How many do you think there are? And listen to Bach Cello Suite One. Are you denying that the whole thing isn't extremely repetitive? In the sense that it repeats the same theme, not the "it's boring" sense. That doesn't make it bad or easy to write or uninteresting. If your study of musical theory tells you otherwise, please explain how. Repetition is a big part of why we like music, much of the time. I like Bach and Gaga, and if I had to choose one, it would be Bach. But I'm not going to go around castigating Gaga. I find her music to be lively, interesting, and somewhat original. It is pop music. So what? Snobbery for the sake of snobbery is anti-intellectual, ironically enough. And just plain useless, unless you are trying to make yourself feel superior. The way to get kids to listen to Bach is not by insulting the music they already like.

[@chelseapoet3664]

@K D100 I agree with you 100%!

[@ex_orpheus1166]

Except Poker Face actually has a melody...

[@IlmarBeekman]

A childish crude melody endlessly repeated with little to no variation yes.

[@ex_orpheus1166]

IlmarBeekman What makes a melody “childish and crude”?

[@IlmarBeekman]

ex_culture lol what makes water wet? Try again. With an actual argument.

[@ex_orpheus1166]

@@IlmarBeekman Wrong analogy. Music is a subjective phenomena.

[@IlmarBeekman]

ex_culture so say the post modernists. The problem with that is the complete and total lack of standards with that position. Rendering the definition of music meaningless. That is why post modernism is being heavily attacked at the moment. It is useless in every sensible way with the sole exception of defending a lack of talent, terrible taste and horrible ideologies. You go ahead and try to build a functioning society with that line of reasoning. The future will judge you a fool.

[@studiobencivengamarcusbenc5272]

All praise to Bach and Deep Purple but today’s charts are trash - today I only like Chris Stapleton and grace potter and the nocturnals

[@sophiaperennis2360]

Bach is greater than Deep Purple.

[@scytale6]

She's so so really.

[@damnedmadman]

Amen!

[@jillianhorsley5985]

So true.

[@Owl365]

He shouldn't have said it, but what he said was profound.

[@hugomaritz692]

I have been an artist for 25 years. Beauty maybe be subjective but our brains are so similar that the experience can be determined 'objectively'. By which I mean some art are better than others but all art depends on the subjective experience.

[@asym52]

I'm just happy that your brain and mine are dissimilar.

[@therevahchist2790]

Why would the teacher try to teach his kids Homer or Shakespeare? Their reading level probably isn't at that level.

[@lizclegg7556]

Because the teacher is a pompous moron.

[@SuperKnowledgeSponge]

What's wrong with teaching them more? only leftists can set the bar for a proper education to be so low.

[@lizclegg7556]

@@SuperKnowledgeSponge Because they can't learn things until they are ready for them. They need to be given what they need (which does mean stretching them) when they are ready for it. Good teaching involves nurturing and a focus on the needs of the student, something this posturing narcissistic fool of a teacher isn't able to do. As for your comment about "leftists" - that is just pathetic name calling, a tactic of stupid people who waste time instead of engaging with the issue at hand (and I'm no leftist).

[@jackdomanski6758]

Black eyes open wide It’s time to testify There’s no room for life And everyone’s waiting for you

[@jasam123]

Further reading kzbin.info/www/bejne/laXNd6qZoq2sa68

[@AndyMacaskill]

Thank you for this!

[@sagenunion7417]

Screw me Scruton Rodger me Roger I love u 💘

[@dhiyanx]

lady gaga and rock and roll artistes sustain millions like myself throgh our darkest hours:maroon 5,elton john rod stewart,annie lennox,led zeppelin.......

[@sephus99]

Which Bach?

[@ibuprofen303]

OffenBach.

[@bobvanboekel1082]

Gaga went to a prestigious gifted youth summer school (CTY) among many great thinkers like Sergey Brin (Google), Zuckerburg (Facebook) and Terrence Tao (Fields Medal) to name a few. I’d call that ironic

[@andrewryan9932]

She's had a great career herself, so I don't really see the irony.

[@abrahampalmer1153]

0:24 so true

[@lulurosenkrantz3720]

Lady Gargoyle .

[@BenWeeks]

Bach was pop music in his age. And probably there was some other elder figure who was believed to be better. Yes repeating one note is not a great melody. But there's more going on than that. The song is extremely well produced and the rhythms are interestingly syncopated. A lot of people dislike Opera but that doesn't mean it takes no skill or that the Italian & French words used have no meaning. Likewise withe pop music. It is perfectly ok to dislike it and to prefer Bach. But if you listen to something like Aphex Twin's Ambient works you'd find Gaga would appreciate it and you'd hear echoes of Bach in it. Gaga also has a wider theatrical presentation which is part of her appeal. The kids are viewing her music as inseparable from her performance art abilities. Of course they're often relying on garish tropes of sexuality and shock motivated by commerce. But this is the free market, not a nanny state. People like what they like. It's ok to break down the song into what about it hooks listeners in. And note that Bach too has catchy melodic ideas that are used. In one hundred years likely Bach will still be remembered and Gaga will not. But who knows.

[@dago87able]

I think I agree with all of your statements. Another commenter made an obvious point which I had missed in my previous post; when Gaga sings the one note parts she's conveying precisely the idea of a poker face, which makes all the sense.

[@ibuprofen303]

"The song is extremely well produced" - if you call hard ceiling maximisation and overdone compression "well produced". And the production is nothing to do with Gaga herself. The song is a feat of engineering, but not art.

[@BenWeeks]

​@@ibuprofen303 Here's gaga performing jazz. I was sympathetic with Scruton's point but this really changed how I saw her. Disliking contemporary pop is fine, but her range and talent are very clear here. Tony Bennett speaks highly of her and did a jazz album with her. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5nYf6V-dtSoY6c

[@JonFrumTheFirst]

Someone never heard 'One Note Samba.'

[@RisteardOhA]

He probably has and realises its interesting context within an muttable harmonic progression.

[@imransajjad]

Just throwing this out there, I love Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Chopin but I never got Bach. It always seems like you can write an essay on Bach and go on and on about how much he contributed to classical music. I feel the same way about Eric Clapton, influenced many others but never wrote something that appealed to me personally. As far as Lady Gaga is concerned, I do get the general point the professor was trying to make but to take an artist's lowest common denominator song to use her as an example of modern musical mediocrity is kind of cherry picking the data imo. Listen to speechless, you and I, Joanne. Lady Gaga is one of the few really talented artists out there today and she has the ability to write music that invokes feelings you already have and offer them a voice. For me, a great work of art is able to overcome the shortcomings of regular linguistics and say something that otherwise can't be said. It is not something that you have to teach in class and grade people upon or spread through a cult following that is one day destroyed by a lefty black guy from the states

[@lesliecunliffe4450]

Beethoven, Mozart, and Wagner all venerated Bach above all others. That indicates something is going on in Bach's music that we should all try to understand. Try listening to The St. Matthew Passion a few dozen times, or Glen Gould playing the Goldberg Variations. Sometimes one has to work at understanding something great.

[@threethrushes]

Enjoying classical music is a deeply personal journey. However, I find it more probable than not that someone who appreciates the composers you mention, will accidentally discover something in Bach. That said, I didn't really get into Bach until my 40s, and I can't imagine my life without Well Tempered Clavier or the Art of Fugue.

[@arnoldklett-bader828]

brilliant

[@RogerSullivanNOLA]

It boggles the mind. Where does a stuffy conservative philosopher discover the fringes of prog metal?

[@Hammerhead547]

The funny thing is that Def Leppard wrote Pour Some Sugar On Me in 15 minutes and its still more stimulating and enjoyable to listen too today as it was in 1987, and that's because it was written by extremely talented musicians who were basically experimenting with song structure right down to penning lyrics that on their face make almost no sense but work beautifully with the music. I can pretty safely say that 99.98% of today's top 40 music (along with the hacks who made it) will be long forgotten in 40 years.

[@smguy7]

The music of Bach and Lady Gaga inhabit two separate universes and it is unfair to compare one with the other. I grew up listening to and playing the music of Bach AND I enjoy Lady Gaga's music. I dare say that in fifty years the twenty year olds of today will be bitchy about the contemporary music of the 2060s and how music was much better in the days of Lady Gaga.

[@TheYopogo]

And I dare say that by the 2060s people will have forgotten about Lady Gaga completely; but they'll still be listening to Bach in 2560.

[@smguy7]

@@TheYopogo of course, but Pop music is temporal and kids today are growing up without knowing about the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, which is fine.

[@TheYopogo]

D'you know, I really don't know if that's true. It may be simply my milieu, but of the young people I know, in a range of about 11-25 years old, it seems to be a fact universally acknowledged that the Beatles and Pink Floyd and Simon and Garfunkel and others are high quality and to be admired. Perhaps they've just been lucky in their influences.

[@steviestevie84]

@@TheYopogo the admiration being partially routed in the phallocentric symbolism of the guitar and that they are male musicians, and that a sexual pop starlett is considered UNSERI0US by virtue of femaleness and sex. In fact Lady Gaga is a highly accomplished pianist and jazz vocalist -- kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6W4nHxqjdGhrtk

[@andrewryan9932]

@@TheYopogo But at the time people were saying The Beatles and The Stones were flashes in the pan, just like you say now about Lady Gaga.

[@cuchullain27]

I love Bach and I am indifferent to Lady Gaga. However, the comparison is false. As John Peel said, comparing Schubert to Blur, is like comparing Tuesday to a piece of string.

[@DieFlabbergast]

Very true. They are both "music," but only in the same way that an inter-office memo and a good novel are both pieces of "writing." Art music is meant to be art, whatever that may be (too difficult to debate here), while pop music is not even intended to be art in the first place: it is simply entertainment - something that helps one to pass the time pleasantly. As George Orwell once said in a different context: "It is like comparing a sausage with a rose: their purposes barely intersect."

[@cuchullain27]

@@DieFlabbergast Both lady gaga and Bach have all the same things that make music music. An interoffice memo doesn't have the same fundamentals as a novel- ie. plot, characters, description, psychological insight etc. A better comparison would be one of Ian Fleming's James Bond novels with Shakespeare. The world would be worse off without either.

[@DieFlabbergast]

@@cuchullain27 Okay, I'll grant you that my choice of comparison was less than apt. But you are committing a similar error by using the phrase "the world would be worse off" in relation to both Shakespeare and Ian Fleming. You and I both know in what way the world would be worse off without Shakespeare, but how, exactly, would it be worse off without Ian Fleming? Fleming's books are simply entertainment: there are hundreds if not thousands of other entertaining authors of escapist fiction, not to mention thousands of other enjoyable ways of passing the time. Shakespeare, on the other hand, has only a very few rivals. I disagree that writing or music-making for the purpose of entertainment is of equal value to writing or music-making for artistic purposes. And if you ask me what "art" means, I will adapt the words of the judge in the pornography trial who said: "I may not be able to define obscenity, but I know it when I see it." Quite. I know art when I see or hear it, and so do you.

[@cuchullain27]

@@DieFlabbergast Know you don't. Both Shakespeare was on one level entertainment of his day. Likewise, despite being escapist fiction, people find literary merit in Ian Fleming's prose. Are these arguments immune to logic and rely merely on a kind of snobbish 'we in the know know, know what it is.' ?

[@DieFlabbergast]

@@cuchullain27 You're dashing your replies off at such speed (smart phone?) that you're starting to make too many typos. (There is no time limit to KZbin comments; take your time.) If Fleming's books have literary merit rather than simply being popular, you are conceding by using that phrase that there is more being argued about here than merely "Do people enjoy it?" I may concede literary (i.e. artistic) merit to Fleming, but I will not concede artistic merit to the person who goes under the ridiculous moniker of "Lady Gaga." Technically speaking, the works of both Gaga and Bach are music, but music is not solely about "technical" matters. In the artistic or "spiritual" sphere, Gaga's music and Bach's music are just not the same "thing," nor are they intended to be.

[@nintendobinks792]

2:25 Surprised that he's familiar with Spiral Architect. Short lived progressive metal band for anyone interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g2i9mqN-e7-Hl7s

[@JuliusJackArmstronggoogle]

What difference does it make they are all lies any ways, your truth is another persons lies.

[@timothyw850]

Don

[@bigyin2586]

It might have help if the teacher doesn't pronounce "Bach" as "Bok".

[@SP-qi8ur]

Lmao you clever prick, it's true...

[@RLybarger1986]

Analyzing an artist based on one song or piece is like judging a chef on one meal. There is not enough data to really know anything.

[@BidlaBuh]

If the one meal makes you sick, would you eat a second time at that place? You always judge a bad chef on one meal!

[@ibuprofen303]

In that case I think it's fair to say that Gaga has brought us a feast of shit.

[@MrEricW2008]

Meetings with parents afterwards because the teacher and students had a different opinion? wtf, rofl!!!!

[@BloggerMusicMan]

I've heard Roger Scruton bring this point up about Lady Gaga multiple times, and I think I ought to respond to it. I like Scruton. He was always thought provoking and has very deep knowledge, but I think he missed something here. I don't object to the idea that some music is bad or good in a way you can justify objectively. I think if you compared Coldplay and Radiohead, for example, you could demonstrate that Radiohead generally has more complex instrumentation, theoretical experimentation, deeper lyrics, etc. (I like early Coldplay, but I think Radiohead is definitely better.) But I do think different kinds of music have different goals and aims. To say that Bach is better than Lady Gaga is really not to compare like with like. Bach generally created music for sacred occasions and to experiment with harmony and counterpoint; Lady Gaga makes music for the dance floor. One is music for contemplation, the other is music for fun. Is one better than the other? I don't think so necessarily, they both have their place in life. I'd like to listen to more Bach than Lady Gaga personally, but Lady Gaga isn't trying to be anything like Bach, so comparing them is not fair to either of them. More importantly, when Scruton says "Pokerface" only has one note, that's largely true (though the chorus has more than that, and how it's set up by the largely one-note verse is important to its impact). But it's not that way because Lady Gaga can't do anything else. She went to NYU School of the Arts. She's perfectly capable of music that has more than one note. She does this as a deliberate stylistic choice, and I feel like Scruton scorned this because he didn't like or understand dance music. In dance music, the rhythm is everything. If you don't have a strong rhythm above all else, no one will dance. Lady Gaga knows this well, and her choices within this style of music are actually quite perceptive and intelligent to heighten the pulse of the rhythm. In this particular case, the vocal and synth lines are meant to directly compliment the four to the floor rhythm created by the percussion, in some cases directly doubling it ("oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, pokerface"). The fact that it's simple, repetitive, and one note is precisely what keeps you into the rhythm, which is exactly what makes the song extremely catchy. If you listen to enough dance music, you realize that many dance musicians are actually not this perceptive. There are common tropes in dance music, including its melodic lines and common phrases, usually about having fun and being in love in a more direct way. "Pokerface" is a little different not just in its musical choice, but also the theme of what it's like to meet someone, liking them physically, and neither person knowing who they other really is. It takes the standard dance floor idea and introduces a certain level of danger. Granted, it's not great literature-level insight, but as contemporary dance music it's a little bit deeper and more ominous, which makes dancing to it in a club with people you don't know seem more real and adventurous. It would boring to play this on a violin. "Pokerface" would be very dull as classical music. But as an effect to create a sense of rhythm when you're on a dance floor, and combined with Lady Gaga's insight into her audience, it's very effective. I don't listen to a lot of dance music as part of my own listening habits, including Lady Gaga. But I like to take people's music on their own terms, and it works well on those terms. It's fun, catchy music that has a certain level of insight into human psychology. It's not a sign that civilization is declining. If all you listened to was Lady Gaga, you'd be pretty impoverished musically. But dancing to Lady Gaga at a club or a party? Nothing wrong with that in the slightest in my opinion.

[@krileayn]

Anybody have the full vid

[@AndyMacaskill]

@krileayn I'll find it and put it in the description.

[@krileayn]

@@AndyMacaskill Cheers mate

[@AndyMacaskill]

@@krileayn That's the link to the full lecture in the description. Sorry it took so long.

[@krileayn]

@@AndyMacaskill God bless you sir, thank you

[@bernieross1241]

Of course. Some music contains more notes and chords, hence it must be better. QED. Same with paintings - some have more colours in than others. So a two colour Rothko beats a Da Vinci drawing, hands down. Obvious, innit?

[@tedtedster8644]

Bollocks...utter bollocks

[@lizclegg7556]

There is a lot more subtlety in Rothko than just two colours. There are probably more shades in a Rothko than a Da Vinci drawing.

[@chelseapoet3664]

Silly responders unaware of Op's irony

[@mau345]

Me who enjoys bach and lady gaga: 😅