Six Ways Writing Workshops Ruin Your Work

Are creative writing workshops helpful for writers? What are the negative aspects of them? In today's presentations, I will outline six ways writers lose momentum in their careers and their progression as writers in in-person writing workshops, online writing groups, and MFA programs.

[@rickysrockinreviews]

"You seek validation when you can't go within." That stopped me for a minute. I will always remember this going forward. Thank you

[@zkinak2107]

The number one lesson Creative Writing workshops have taught me is that the critiques of my work I hear from others need to start coming from myself. I get frustrated when others see something that could be cleaned up or made clearer that I didn’t see myself because it makes me feel as though I’m still blind to some of the weaknesses in my work.

[@s0urp0wer5]

That's always gonna happen no matter how good you get. First drafts are always primitive and gnarly. That's what editors are for.

[@sweetviolents29]

Great vid! Here’s my workshop horror story. My first workshop was pretty competitive because it was led by a published author (Little & Brown, if that’s what it’s called). Even so, in the whole class, there were only ~4 writers who had conventions down. Among those, this one guy was just miles ahead of everyone else. His first story was awesome, pretty much a theme on Blood Meridian in space, but with lots of specialized medical language that didn’t quite fit which made me think he was referring to Infinite Jest. Of all of us, he got the worst feedback from workshop members AND the best feedback from the instructor. One of the other writers of quality-MFA student, if what follows doesn’t give it away-she really didn’t like that. For the next few weeks she talked out of class about how this guy is so creepy, how his writing is so pretentious, etc. Well, his second turn came around and he submitted a thoughtful first person confessional from the persepective of an incel. Can you imagine how this MFA student felt about that? Well, don’t bother imagining, here’s what she did. She lobbied a group (most of the women in the class in fact) to cosign a complaint to the instructor AND the English department about how this guy was intimidating his classmates and making them feel too unsafe to come to class. THANKFULLY, the instructor was able to smooth things out due to his publication clout. The writer in question was a nice dude. I later fiund out that relentless gossip of an MFA plagiarized her stories from some indie short film nobody’s ever heard of.

[@WriteConscious]

Jesus lol. Another typical story though from these workshops.

[@Elygh33]

Gabriel García Márquez had one piece of advice that I think stands out: Write not for an audience in mind but for your friends

[@WriteConscious]

Love that!

[@Elygh33]

On Morrison, there’s something people don’t mention when they bring her up about an author finding success later in life. She had an academic background and spent years writing, as well as the fact that she was an editor for years. Words and language were basically her life. That’s basically what we need

[@WriteConscious]

Yes!

[@fireball43]

Writing classes only work if I respect the professor. My last one was a nepotism baby that wrote a terrible detective novel.

[@WriteConscious]

lol

[@JackManhire]

You're not wrong. Getting good friends to read early drafts of my novel was like pulling teeth. And they said they loved the story, they just don't like reading

[@WriteConscious]

Sad!

[@KalleVilenius]

The creative writing course I'm in right now (easy course credits) had us split into groups based on how open we were about sharing our writing in the workshop part, and the very idea confuses me. Why would you be there if you didn't want to share your work? There are those who don't want to share at all and those who want to share anonymously, those who want to be critiqued anonymously and a tiny minority accepting of complete transparency. It's all about having a safe space, when literature should be pushing you out of your comfort zone entirely. Karl Ove Knausgård said it well, that literature should be ruthless. How can it be ruthless if you need a safe space to engage with it, if you need to hide from it? Hide from your own work, the thing YOU birthed into this world? That didn't work out for Frankenstein, why would it work out for you? The one positive thing I can say in defense of these workshops though is the diversity I've encountered, everybody's got a different approach and different interests, which results in material being produced (at least among those who share it lol) with observations and stylistics choices that none of the others would've thought to do. Obviously there's a diversity in quality as well, some choices more carefully considered than others. There is value in seeing different stages of development in those other writers. Compare yourself to your peers, where on the ladder are you? If you're not at the top yet, how much harder do you need to work to beat them? But I definitely recognize that push towards sentimentality. The teacher refers to it as "emotional intensity".

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks for sharing your expierences brotha. We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to our peers though. That's horizontal thinking. We should be looking vertically to the greats and into the depths of our own soul.

[@blurredlenzpictures3251]

One thing is for sure, unless your friends and family are actual artists, your closest friends will never ever take your art seriously until you break thru then theyll say we knew they were great all along but I wouldn't watch their films or read their work. Your persona has to come alive to the unknown viewers. Then you have arrived.

[@WriteConscious]

Exactly!

[@timmellis5038]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="470">7:50</a> Maybe that fat guy in your class was Ignatius J Reilly from "A confederacy of Dunces?" How great is that character? “I really don't have the time to discuss the errors of your value judgements.” ― john kennedy toole, A Confederacy of Dunces

[@mikelpelaez]

I just bought the book yesterday, I have to get to read it

[@WriteConscious]

Haha, love that book!

[@tomasvergara1599]

Such a great video! I needed to hear this.

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks for the support!

[@MrYONIYONIYONIYONI]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="840">14:00</a> sometimes it´s not for validation, but to see if something works. Good talk.

[@WriteConscious]

Good comment!

[@MrOtters36]

Great video!

[@YvesThePoet]

Oh gosh, the timing of this one 😂 dang. The line between "feedback" and input overload is razor thin and crusting. I have retreated into my deep cave of solitude and it feels just fine.

[@WriteConscious]

Hey, don't listen to the haters Yves! You're doing great. Plus, we don't know what happened in the sorority. Only you do!

[@YvesThePoet]

@@WriteConscious 🤣 🙏🏼🙏🏼 I appreciate you. Epic work in the substack btw I’m excited for what you’re creating.

[@briankim7419]

1) can you show me how to write fiction with full time jobs 2) how to revise your fiction well 3) how to find theme

[@WriteConscious]

Yes!

[@Ozabebop]

Good shit mate! Thanks for this one.

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks to you for the support!

[@chelseyummali]

So as a stay at home mom in my mid 30's.....how do I know if I'm good? I've been told by a couple writing teachers in college that I had "potential". I've written a non-fiction book but never published it. I had 5 people read and help with edits or suggestions and they all seemed to really enjoy it, but that it different than fiction. Aside from some classes in college with short creative writing projects no one has read my work.

[@WriteConscious]

Nonfiction is easier than fiction. If you wrote well in college and feel like a strong writer now, you should be good. Fiction is more difficult. You'll have to post your fiction online for free and see what people think. You can also try to be as objective as possible and compare it to writers you like.

[@AnnaMaledonPictureBookAuthor]

I'm glad you are talking about it. I came to the same conclusion. The greatest authors read a lot and wrote on their own. Beverly Cleary said that she doesn't write by committee. I'm the same way. The more books I read, the more I wrote. The more courses I did and the more craft books I read, the less I wrote. I guess it's paralysing. So many books are so boring, formulaic and overworked because they were critiqued, workshopped and it killed any originality that could have been there. You write to keep your writing group happy, rather than exploring your own teritory. I'm sure there are people who will say that writing workshops helped them, which is fine and great for them, but I want to be the only person responsible for my writing (plus an editor obviously to fix grammar). For me the joy is to do it alone, to revise on my own. Writing is art, after all, and when I think about it as art, painters come to mind. They just paint whatever they want, without going to critique groups. Are some paintings or writings bad, sure, but I think it's best to explore and learn without constant input from others because you will start writing safe books instead of writing what only you can write. So if you love writing workshops, keep at it, but if you don't, don't force yourself going there.

[@jpeterson130]

A woman I've been seeing, who's also a writer, has been pushing me to do collaborations and workshops. Only, my work is published weekly by a major city publication, whereas she only publishes on Substack (nothing wrong with this). I tell her I'd prefer not to do workshops, seeing as how I'm doing just fine and crafting my own skills. I let her go over a story or two in the past, and gladly received her feedback, but when one story didn't include her suggestions, she was pissed! Since then, I've been protecting my work from her. I know she means well, but gut instincts are howling for me to take my papers and run. Also, my creative writing workshops in college were a fuckin' joke. I truly believe the best work, like you said, comes from within.

[@AnnaMaledonPictureBookAuthor]

Ouch! Yes, people need to realize that we have the right to disregard their suggestions. I don't like workshops and critique groups, so I'm glad I'm not the only one. I love writing on my own, without a committee, as Beverley Cleary called them.

[@sharoncurran6622]

Thank you, I do like your videos

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks!

[@flame85246]

Isn’t it alright to do the Toni Morrison thing (wake up at 4am to write) while just doing it at an MFA? A work shop is only 2.5 hours a week and teaching an intro composition class isn’t much work, no compared to the 40 hours of a white collar job or 40 hours a week of factory work. What makes treating your MFA like just another job different then working any other job?

[@WriteConscious]

Toni was a single mother of two children. If you're lucky and get waived tuition and money for teaching, you're making around 20k a year from that. You're also not just taking one 2.5 hour workshop class a week. You're getting a masters degree that requires 48 or so credit hours. Most grad programs only let you take 9 credits (3 classes) a semeseter. So, across three years you're taking one workshop class, and probably two normal graduate-level English classes a semester. You also may have to teach more than one class a semester. A lot of schools make students teach two classes a semester now. So, if you've ever taken a graduate-level English class you know how hard the work is. On average, you at minimum have to read one book a week and do some supplemental writing with it. I've taken classes that require 2-3 books to be read a week. So, for time breakdown Three classes a week (in-class time with commuting) - 8-10 hours Required reading/work for those classes per week - 10-20 hours (can be up to 40+ when you're working on a big paper) Teaching one or two comp classes a week - 3-6 hours Grading/Prep for class - 2-10 hours a week ( can be insane numbers for finals) Random time spent on campus, office hours, commuting, etc. - 2-10 hours The time spent easily adds to forty hours a week doing things that aren't the real goal. However, if feels like you're doing something because you're around beautiful young people on a campus, have a title/power, and can keep your family off your back. But, you could easily make 20k a year doing a job that 90% of the time you're writing/reading on the job. Plus, which will take you much less time. The jobs I listed below took me 20-25 hours a week (and made me around 20k a year) and were low stress and let me do my own thing. Some jobs I've done that are available in any city to make this happen are Substitute teaching (online subbing also is a thing) Hotel Clerk or some other low impact job where you sit somewhere and process a couple people an hour Security work in a remote place or that's chill All of these jobs are easily manipulated and can be made for your suiting. You have the choice to pick the best school in your town, pick the best teacher with the best classes, and be able to put on your headphones and grind all day. You can try out different security/hotel companies until you find a position that suits your needs. Something also needs to be said about creative energy being wasted. If you're spending all this time writing essays and reading random books, that's energy you won't have for your own writing/reading.

[@flame85246]

@@WriteConscious what you’re saying makes a lot of sense, especially the part about just working part time for 20k a year. Thanks for taking the time to write out a great response! I will say that I hear there are a lot of different means of cutting corners on teaching/taking classes in an MFA, but that’s probably fair to say about any job. Again, thanks for elevating the discourse and widening my perspective!

[@ewfvds8036]

best youtuber

[@WriteConscious]

Thanks!

[@eganwolf9138]

Cool t-shirt, sir! Where did you buy it?)

[@foxphorescence1217]

I'm new to your channel and I love your vibe. Do you have any craft books that you recommend? My favourites are Save the Cat! Story Engineering 7 Basic Plots The Writer's Journey Story Genius Are there any that you would add? Thank you in advance for your time.

[@richardallen4912]

Most good writers have a reader. Of the twenty critiques I'd normally get in a group two might be helpful, and yes you have to know what to keep and what to toss. It's no different than writing. Groups are hard because you have to read other people's junk. But occasionally you find a talent to partner with. My reader came from a group. I'm thankful I found her.

[@AM-is1jh]

what are ur favorite craft books

[@donvonfilms2937]

We should be free to write about whatever we want.

[@WriteConscious]

Yes!

[@chipsandip]

Dope!

[@gurbbyy6252]

You're just the absolute goat

[@WriteConscious]

Only because I have GOATED fans. It was much harder making videos that got 0 views across an entire week lol

[@user-xd1xf9rp5p]

I specifically joined a high-level English literature class in college because the teacher was a really good published poet, but he ended up having a master student teach half the classes because he was touring and promoting his book and when he was there, we all just stared at stupid poems that other kids wrote for hours and nobody would say anything and he said he enjoyed boring everyone to tears and that’s where the learning happens, but it was actually a total waste of money and a big disappointment because he could’ve actually opened his mouth and said things to teach us but instead it was super disappointing. It was like taking guitar lessons from Jimmy Page and then Jimmy has his Roadie teach the class and when he does show up he just occasionally shows a random song he likes and listens to everyone talk about that song and just interjects to one up people. It was a lot of ego stroking and very little learning. Plus he stole one one my poems and literally published one identical and when I found out I told him he should send me a poem that was hard to find of his and he said he didn’t have to do that but he would. He literally stole 2 poems and combined them into one poem about a guy walking around at night after becoming blind and how he can still see in his dreams. Pulitzer winner Franz Wright told me before he died that MFA stands for mother fucking assholes and he was right

[@greblaksnew]

I agree with your analysis of workshops. I'll add that I think they can help young writers focus on language; maybe they can teach them grammar and where to put semicolons. It stops there. This goes for beta readers and the charlatans who call themselves developmental editors, too - they are training wheels for bikes or floaties for the pool. I was reading Hemingway's letters, and he seemed to be of the mind that a writer shouldn't share their work until it's finished. I guess to share it too soon could kill it, and that's the problem with MFAs and workshops. I feel a writer who aspires to greatness needs to know what greatness is. And they need to do the work to get to that level. This is beyond imitatio - I think most of us aspire to imitatio and never get beyond it. For example, "The Wasteland" was great before Ezra Pound. Yes, Ezra Pound refined it, but it was already so great that it survived Ezra Pound.

[@WriteConscious]

lol

[@toddjacksonpoetry]

It's easiest if you just know your piece is that good. Simplifies things. First, know that it's good. Next step, see its flaws. Finally, know that it's that good despite or even because of the flaws. It gives you the power of being alone, and keeping that power even among 50 writers. I'm in Las Vegas, too. This desert is special. As for desert poetry, which I've indulged in too though always in the name of a Greek God, usually Apollo or Aphrodite: I think any writer who pushes in one direction for 10-20 years will get somewhere

[@WriteConscious]

Great way of putting it!

[@fireball43]

“Seeding racism” lmao

[@WriteConscious]

lol

[@carrion-vj1yz]

My current goal is to become the Takashi Miike of literature. Also the white supremacists infiltrating the workshop sounds like a possible story.

[@WriteConscious]

Yes!

[@canopus78]

Si kieres ser escritor; sólo escribe..

[@WriteConscious]

lol

[@KristinDLinus]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1020">17:00</a> Every art is a political art, my boy!