Slow vs Fast - E0S1 Acheron 0-Cycles with Sunday | MOC 2.6 | No Limited Eidolons

[@TommyNguyenTran]

Bro wasn’t kidding when he said the dmg with slow Acheron is ridiculous 😮 I mean 600k single target. great video btw its always satisfying to watch you 0 cycle 👏 Edit: Thanks for the pin 😄

[@EiDehGaming]

It would be closer to 700K though she missed a few big crits especially on the final hit

[@Ngxthugshaker]

@@EiDehGaming is atk body better than crit here?

[@suskawuha7408]

@@NgxthugshakerSunday gives 20% crit rate I think so if you were to put crit rate body it would over. Crit dmg might (not sure) be like ok but maybe will have too much cause Sunday also gives crit dmg. Sunday doesn’t give atk so the atk body is better than crit rate body but compared to crit dmg body I think still better.

[@Jarubimba]

Can't wait for Fugue. Heck, imagine Himeko chaining all those FuAs with the exo-toughness

[@bloonbrawler9872]

Considering how much FUA when MOC had exo toughness. It gonna be alot

[@Ukorim]

Each video you make encourages me to farm eagle more and more, once again a clean 0 cycle clear

[@TheGeekyRedMage]

Very nice 0 cycle clears! The dmg amp with slow Acheron for wave 1 is kind of ridiculous. lol Though this does illustrate that while Sunday is still a really good support for some 2.x units, his synergy with 2.x DPS units is not as strong due to either these units either being break/super break units or having a stack mechanic with their ults. Jade+Lingsha duo and Boothill definitely gets the most out of Sunday, if only for his utility. And as you said, the dmg amp for wave 1 with Sunday is really nice. Regardless, he can still be worth the pulls, even for those that mainly have 2.x units, depending on what a player is looking for to make the game more enjoyable for them. (inb4 people say I'm "glazing" Sunday because I dare to say Sunday is still a good support despite these caveats lol)

[@kamiiv9864]

yea i wasn't expecting much with sunday acheron and that's kind of what I got, he really helps with acheron usually having iffy wave 1 requirements but no atk buffs is just kinda brutal. on the other hand, another acheron vid, another day of lacking jiaoqui making me question my existence... but 10 days till fugue. In MoC, definitely rappa vs tv boss, maybe there's a himeko setup that can work against tv boss, and boothill should be able to take out svarog with fugue (I doubt firefly can though). wonder what else you might be thinking of, especially in AS or PF.

[@EiDehGaming]

Oh the woes of not having Jiaoqiu. Anyway I'm mostly just thinking about Boothill and Rappa, though when I said the things I wanted to try, it's mostly in different game modes since I don't think too many characters are really going to benefit from Fugue.

[@nonnrr]

Great runs, it's pretty cool to see a comparison between the two playstyles. Curious to see what else you might have in mind with Sunday, though I'm guessing you've probably covered most of it? Until we start getting actual summon DPS chars that is. I'm *a bit* tempted to try to get Fugue because I invested a bit too deep into SB (E2S1 Firefly and E0S1 Rappa) but realistically I'd need insane luck. Gotta start doing those side quests. I pray for my jades 😂

[@EiDehGaming]

Well there's at least one more which is Ratio who can 0-cycle the first side. But yeah after that, not too much. Good luck on your pulls!

[@Darksouls1904]

Damn great one..funny enough i switched acheron from inert to gensei today in 5 runs and ran svarog with sparkle instead and uploaded it about 30 mins ago ..2 ults to finish svarog pretty ez run..nice to see sunday -1 spd team as well.

[@MozeFan]

Mentioning Fugue at the end, do you plan on doing a Xueyi 0-cycle perhaps? (Like with the True Sting on Floor 11 at least, HP inflation is so bad right on F12 right now I think that's really impossible unlike back then) Well, I'm not sure how it'll interact with Xueyi, but the Foxian Prayer buff allowing the character to deal toughness damage even if the enemy is not weak to the character's element (or basically just partially ignoring toughness idk) I wonder how it will interact with Xueyi's stack generation, and will it make Xueyi's skill more effective at gathering stacks especially against non-quantum weak enemies? Exo-Toughness also gives her extra stacks too, so who knows? Fugue might just fix all the issues in Xueyi's kit like how Sunday addresses Jing Yuan's problems. I'm personally just going for Fugue because I'm about to do a LOT of crazy stuff with Remembrance MC. I'm curious to see what kind of 0-cycles will you pull off with the Trailblazer as well as Herta and Aglaea.

[@EiDehGaming]

Hmm Xueyi is hard to say. She definitely improves from Fugue but it's hard to say how much. The biggest problem of matchups like Xueyi vs True Sting is just that once you run out of toughness to deplete, she does really little dmg without FUA procs. And it's questionable whether even with Fugue, it's enough for True Sting. We'll see I guess

[@sethyboy0]

You can get ult 1 giga buff with Bronya too, you just need E4 or a million resets so she gets hit twice by the robot.

[@Electro_Seelie]

I want to farm Eagle for speedtune rly badly but idk why my builds is kinda bad or my standard is a bit too high. How should I evaluate a relic stat? like are 2 useful sub rolls on an ornament good or should I farm more?

[@sagnikmaulik]

2 useful substats (except maybe the body piece) and at minimum 3 rolls in those two substats. (Ideally atleast 4 rolls in head and hand relics since they have fixed main stats and are relatively easier to farm.

[@EiDehGaming]

The general idea is to go for better substats on head and hands pieces as the other commenter mentioned. But for me, I differentiate between rolling for double stat gear vs single stat gear. I really only focus on SPD for most of my support pieces with other substats like EHR being bonuses. I think you should differentiate between good enough and 'stretch goals'. For single substat pieces, I generally aim for 2 (or more) rolls into the stat (e.g. 6+ SPD, ~8 CR on CD chest piece). For double stat pieces, aim for 3 (or more) rolls. Anything more, and it becomes quite inefficient so you only do it if you know exactly what you're aiming for. I generally have a target build especially for supports before I start rolling for pieces, and it's usually not very high. Just know that if you roll for a lot of pieces in the same set, eventually you will get some pieces way better than others just by chance. Whether or not you can intentionally aim for something like that really depends on how much time you want to spend in the mines, or how much you refresh too ig.

[@kiyotakaayanokoji3507]

Did whether or not crimson knot stacks going to Svarog make a difference in your runs? I noticed in both showcases, your first ult had all 9 stacks going Svarog. The second ult being mixed and the last one all 9 going to him again. When I 0 cycled this with my Acheron, I noticed that if I didn't have at least 18 stacks going to Svarog I just didn't do enough damage to kill him before the turn ended. Granted, I'm using a sustain and Pela since I don't have Jiaoqiu. But for your runs do they just not matter?

[@EiDehGaming]

It doesn't matter in this run, but it does matter more often than not in general. For both runs, dmg wise, landing on either is fine. It's the toughness values that get tricky and change depending on who it lands on each time

[@kiyotakaayanokoji3507]

@EiDehGaming Oh yeah definitely! Since I don't have Jiaoqiu I need Acheron to reduce the toughness bar by herself. Or else Svarog's hand capture shenanigans ensue and thus resulting in an auto reset.

[@orion9535]

with this close of a result, what do you think the advantage of using speed boots over atk boots ? im surpirsed by the fact that slow acheron with 134 sunday and not the classic 167 wind ddd still does the job (even tho i know that theres no slot for ddd on this team). ig spd run still has 1 more acheron skill, but more stack that doesnt turn into an extra ult is barely changing anything.

[@EiDehGaming]

Running Sunday at high SPDs is when you realize he really doesn't replace Sparkle in that role, at least for most normal players. His CDMG buff becomes incredibly mediocre at that level of SPD. Anyway about the difference, you could interpret it the other way. The ATK boots variant just barely got the last ult. If she had 1 less energy, then the fast one suddenly comes far ahead because of the extra ult

[@TheeGull0213]

For E2S1 Acheron with E0S0 sunday, E0S1 Jiaoqiu and E0S1 aventurine. Is it always better to run fast acheron to get more stacks?

[@EiDehGaming]

As usual, it always depends. If it results in an extra ult that offsets the loss of dmg from previous ults, then faster is better. That really depends on how long your fights are and there's no correct answer.

[@Nahstyah]

Fugue + dot team might be good?? Like kafka black swan fugue The def shred would be crazy like 18 from fugue 16 from resolution lc 20 from black swan 18 from prisoner set which would enhance both dot damage and super break dmg

[@EiDehGaming]

It's probably decent for general use, but note that the break delay also delays DoT dmg procs.

[@Nahstyah]

That is true which is why I like that fugue delay is lower than Ruan mei and hmc to allow you to break more and make use of the exo toughness being around 15 percent i suppose You can get some extra arcana stacks in so it's not that bad

[@santabakure6264]

@@EiDehGaming for kafka/black swan team it’s not an issue More time to stack black swan arcana and Kafka’s skill and ult power up the more stacks enemy has After enemy leaves broken state it gets nuked by like 20-30 arcana stacks

[@qurt5101]

Is Fugue an upgrade over Pela for an Acheron E0S0? Because Acheron can apply 2 stacks per skill with Fugue

[@EiDehGaming]

I'm doubtful. Stack generation is nice and all but I don't think she makes up for the loss in dmg when compared with Pela. It's hard to say

[@Torrtozzo]

Bro just pull sign 🫡

[@jonglopez5400]

Fugue's kit &/or LC shines when the enemies are broken or about to be broken. If you are building Acheron for those 2 specific scenarios then you are good to go. If not, then it is more consistent to just defense down then ult regardless of the enemies' toughness bar. imo both are good for acheron if you just want to get the job done.

[@danielak1666]

​@@jonglopez5400the problem is even in that scenario you'll need to build Acheron as break and crit dps hybrids (which are rather hard and not as strong as her normal build). For Acheron, Fugue will more likely only usable to give stack and might do better if it is being given to a unit that moves often (like Lingsha or Aventuin) instead of Acheron

[@darkkforce]

its about equal as pela in her best scenario. she generates ults faster than pela when you skill the sustain.

[@aboodjrekh9962]

Can i replace jiao with sw in this comp? And if so what are the requirements?

[@EiDehGaming]

Don't think so. I could see JQ + SW working but not SW + Pela. Just to get 3 ults on wave 2 without JQ is really difficult.

[@aboodjrekh9962]

@EiDehGaming Oh Ok then Guess i will wait for jiao rerun But if i could get my hands on fugue Will it suffice?

[@EiDehGaming]

@@aboodjrekh9962 fugue has the same problems of not meaningfully adding to the energy count since it's still limited by team actions. And even lower dmg amp for acheron's ult.

[@aboodjrekh9962]

@@EiDehGaming Oh ok Thx bro❤️

[@cionaed9912]

I've been running my Acheron with speed boots and running an Atk chest is really gamechanging/

[@sup-md1mo]

eideh what site do you use for the build infographics?

[@EiDehGaming]

The build cards? enka.network. Unless you're referring to the one near the start of the video then I made that myself.

[@sup-md1mo]

@EiDehGaming nono I meant the build cards, thank you!!

[@backupmydude3572]

i dont run speed on my char so good run

[@ilvy3296]

is atk body better than CD body when Acheron paired with Sunday? I have never seen someone use atk body

[@EiDehGaming]

It's not always better, it's just an option. For this specific setup, if we just compare the CD and ATK (assume 100% CR), then my CDMG body is 0.2% better than this ATK body. It just also has better CR so it's better for this case. Edit: Forgot to mention this is for the ATK boots case. For SPD boots, it should be pretty clear cut that ATK body is better than CDMG body.

[@rurouni572]

​@@EiDehGaming Could you clarify why atk body is better than cdmg body on spd boots? Is it because Sunday already brings cdmgwith his buffs? And I take it you had to use crate body in the spd boots run because you don't have the adequate crate otherwise?

[@xo8677]

@@EiDehGaming That's interesting, I've never seen anybody running attack body even when using speed boots on Acheron so this definitely isn't common knowledge

[@EiDehGaming]

@@rurouni572 First requirement is almost always 100% CR. After that it depends on your in-combat stats, accounting for special modifiers that don't show up on the stat screen though I believe Acheron has none for ATK and CDMG. I think an example illustrates this idea pretty well to see why this might be the case. Using the first build as a reference example, Acheron's ATK is 1333 (base) + 1378 and in combat, the only difference is 1 set of Lushaka which adds 12% ATK. This puts her in combat ATK multiplier as 1333 + 1538 = 1333 * (1 + 1.154). Meanwhile, her CDMG is 191%. For simplicity, assume Sunday adds 100% CDMG (it's around there, from his ult and 2 stacks of Sacerdos), then her in-combat CDMG is 291%. The last thing to know is that the dmg formula is a combination of mostly multiplicative elements. So inside it somewhere, we'll have 1333 * (1 + 1.154) * (1 + 2.91). Since we can't do anything about 1333 which is the base attack, we only care about the ATK multiplier effect (1 + 1.154) and CDMG multiplier (1 + 2.91). Now assume that we can replace the CR body with either an ATK body or a CDMG body, which adds either 43.2% ATK or 64.8%% CDMG (I know the CR body here has CDMG substats so the actual added amount is less but again we simplify). Also pretend that we somehow preserve 100% CR. Then you can directly compare the multiplicative elements here. It's a comparison between Option 1 ATK Body: (1 + 1.154 + 0.432) * (1 + 2.91) = 10.11 Option 2 CDMG Body: (1 + 1.154) * (1 + 2.91 + 0.648) = 9.817 So Option 1 has a larger combined multiplier from ATK and CDMG than option 2. You can further complicate this. If we instead took the lightning orb there to be an ATK orb, then the same comparison gets much closer, 11.799 to 11.786. Note the multiplier values are obviously higher because we have more total ATK% and what's not shown here is the reduction in DMG multiplier. Beyond this toy example, we'd generally want to consider a balance between all offensive stats, so DMG, ATK and CRIT* for crit character stats. In general, you want a roughly even distribution** of substat lines (not the substats themselves) between different stats. It's more valuable to add towards multipliers in the dmg formula that currently have relatively lower value than ones that have higher values. It's for roughly the same reason that in sustainless runs, I'm of the opinion that debuffers (e.g. JQ or Pela) actually add significantly more dmg than a 4th harmony since at some point, offensive stats become quite saturated. * The interaction between CR and CD together with the rest of the stats is relatively complicated so it's generally easier to work with assuming 100% CR. It's also not obvious whether one should care about expected DMG vs say top 10th percentile performance since it depends on the context. ** If I didn't do my Math wrongly, the actual ideal distribution of # of lines of substats between ATK and CDMG is dependent on the total number of substats, though this value approaches 0.5 (lines are evenly distributed between both). This assumes that the impact of ATK percentage >> flat ATK.

[@rurouni572]

@@EiDehGaming Wow, appreciate the in depth examples using some real values. I always vaguely knew about stat saturation and how the damage formula works, but you broke it down in a pretty easily understandable way. Thank you! Now to mourn all the foddered double crit atk chest pieces...

[@DNGamingz]

I'm starting to think skipping Acheron on her rerun is a bad idea... but then again I'm not sure I can use her without other Nihility units. I'm just struggling on Svarog's part as I don't have wind or lightning dps. 2nd node is easy with FF/Lingsha.

[@EiDehGaming]

Unless you have Jiaoqiu or intend to get him, I think perhaps you should just keep looking forward

[@Maria-.-Kim]

If u have sunday u can just pull Aglaea

[@Radiant450]

Well worry not as next patch you will have Aglaea, the new best lightning dps (arguably best dps period depending on who you own), so yeah if you have Sunday Aglaea is gonna fantastic for you and you don’t need JQ.

[@DNGamingz]

@@Radiant450 I'm just hoping she won't be in same patch as The Herta.

[@sagnikmaulik]

​@@DNGamingzshe is in the same patch as herta ofcourse. They will be released according to the drip marketing order.

[@flybreak7808]

Meanwhile my acheron does 400k at best 😭 I have to pull for jiaoqiu fr he is a game changer and my silverwolf is barely breathing these days. Tho i wonder can acheron still 0 cycle with sw?

[@haiankieu2305]

You definitely can with sw, in single target SW should amp acheron's dmg more than jq. SW just doesn't generate as many stacks as jq.

[@kirarrriii]

@@haiankieu2305 Hi! Were you able to 0-cycle Svarog with SW and Pela?

[@haiankieu2305]

@@kirarrriii well I don't have SW so I can't even attemp to try unfortunately.

[@haiankieu2305]

However some1 did a 0 cycle with acheron e2s1 Pela bron e2s1 aven e0s1 so I think Acheron SW Pela def can if you play no sustain kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZutqZKDqdd1lZIsi=WfeJZ9Nj-ePaW6z_

[@kirarrriii]

@@haiankieu2305 I am actually aiming for a run without eidolons. No problem with their signature lc as I have them. It’s just that I don’t have JQ

[@soumikdragoon3304]

What would e2 Acheron's current best team in the game?

[@Gutz-n7l]

Acheron shoudl always be with jiaoqiu. If with sustain, use Aventurine and the supports can be either Sparkle, Sunday, Bronya, Ruan Mei, or Robin. But Ruan Mei and Robin has another team synergy best suit for them so using the 3 options would be best. If running sustainless, gotta use the three single target advance harmony units and Robin would be best recommended. And don't forget to keep Jiaoqiu. Acheron isn't that F2P friendly but if you meet the requirements like having Jiaoqiu and other highly recommended teammates, you're good.

[@Gutz-n7l]

Best Acheron team in my opinion though is when she is paired up with Jiaoqiu, Sunday, and Aventurine ( E2 Acheron btw ).

[@zakariamimouni279]

gotta be JQ + Sunday + Aventurine/Gallagher (depends really, most of the time it's Aventurine but there some fights where I prefer healing over shielding)

[@OgZz73]

Nice run. I did it with E3S1 and a sustain in S1 Aven

[@Elfcon]

having E2 might make a big different

[@ArchangelSunday]

Just what's the point in making a fast Sunday using the same build as the slow one?... Fast Sunday must have 161 speed to make sense

[@floralfires]

For a 0 cycle, 135 vs 161 has no difference. It’s still two actions in the first wave. You would need 200+ spd on Sunday without ddd or eagle to get 3 actions. However in general use cases 161 is better as it allows for 4 actions in the first 2 cycles

[@zannax351]

Sunday is slooooow at base and getting to 161 sacrifices a lot of crit damage for literally no benefit because you get the same amount of turns anyway

[@ArchangelSunday]

@ Hell nah just get better relocs. Skill issue, my Sunday has 161 dpeed with 237% crit dmg and he's perfectly fine lol