OUTREMER CATAMARANS | UNDER $250K | Is SAILING LA VAGABONDE's catamaran right for you? Yacht Broker

Sailing La Vagabonde recently switched to an Outremer Catamaran. Should you be looking to buy an Outremer catamaran or focus your sailing catamaran search on the big builders like Lagoon and Leopard? We also list the best sailing catamarans for under $200K or $250K. Yacht broker Gary Fretz argues that Outremer is like many other semi-custom builders in that they have small production runs. Smaller production runs mean that there will be more bugs that have not been fixed in each new model. Custom yachts or boats from semi-custom builders according to him do not have the resources or feedback to fix all the production bugs. He argues that you should never own hulls 1-10 because every model has a lot of bugs, which show up in the early models. Fretz argues that semi-custom or small production run builders do not have the scale to afford to fix all those bugs or the buying power to pass build savings onto the buyers.
He lists the best values in 5-year old (post charter) sailing catamarans under $200,000. In Fretz's opionion they are 38-to-42-foot, owner version Lagoon or Leopard Catamarans coming out of the Sunsail or Moorings fleets. Secondary charter fleets selling older boats will typically not fit defects at survey while Sunsail and the Moorings will.
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[@SlowBoatSailing]

Check out our other videos about buying a Cat with Gary Fretz! kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYCsfouKo7GHj9k

[@Mahalo_83]

Never get this guy on your channel again his viewpoint on semi custom builders is so biased it’s unreal.

[@esquire9445]

I read the comments here.... It seems everyone is missing one thing... this guy is talking about value. Meaning, for a person on a budget where should you be looking. He wasn't talking about performance or quality. He was talking about used boats that are functional for a low cost with few problems. That is his target market as a broker. If you give zero effs about money go buy a high quality custom boat. Look at Riley from LaVegabond's las video... he said it's common for new boats to need warrantee work, which is what that Outremer needed. He has had work on it for the 2 years straight from mechanical to stress cracks in the hull. Custom is Custom and there are always kinks in Custom.

[@heikogehrig]

I had mixed feelings about the video as well (he did have some good points, but...), especially seeing how he more or less exclusively sells Leopards and Lagoons...

[@marvinlacson132]

Big help for me. Nice honest tips.. Thats great!!! Keep it up

[@californiakayaker]

I watched a repairman who must have worked for a boat manufacturer build a mold, which he had built over an already manufactured boat which had serious problems so was a little expendable. The mold didn't damage the old boat. I came out really well, it was the back wing section of a cat with the steps. Interesting procedure. starboard stern. The thing I found the worst on the La Vagabonde boat is the steering. The main steering platform cracked from stress, the cable was vinyl covered, and those were the problems when it was basically new.

[@brianlambert4685]

Hmm- For many boaters/cruisers (ex racers?) its a combination of things and all boats have compromises so we make our choices. I'm no cat sailor and have no experience or opinion on one brand to another. However Gary makes some assumptions that imply accomodation and comfort trumps performance. He also implies that good mass production techniques will always trump smaller scale and probably more skilled 'craftsmen' led construction. I'm not sure I am sold on "if you want speed fly". For me performance would always be a bigger driver than comfort and accomodation space. We all choose diferent compromises. I might say "if large interior space and comfort is all you want - book a hotel". I'd expect many to disagree (my wife included) and I certainly wouldn't criticise thecompromise choice of others. Craftsman v production - not sure thats always a given either!

[@gordonthomas4292]

This guy is a boat salesman to newbie cruisers looking for wet apartments, not sailors.

[@umvhu]

You briefly decried speed. There are 3 reasons I choose multihull over mono, the first is speed, you can go further with the same provisioning, second they are usually a more comfortable ride than a mono, and third they are usually shallow draft permitting greater opportunites close to shore.

[@en8581]

Agree with you. He did not mention that a lot of the benefit of a “faster” boat is getting to sail (no motor!) in 10 knots of wind vs having to motor or motor sail. I hate motoring.

[@C_R_O_M________]

This is a reasonable perspective. However I would expect smaller builders to be more careful in their designs since they have less takes to make it right.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

Semi-custom or performance cruiser cats only a couple of knots faster than production cats ? Let's look at the results of the ARC 2019 . Winner was the Marsaudon Composites TS5 in 11 days with zero hours motoring . First production Cat , a Lagoon 52S finished 5 days (took nearly 50 % more time) later and used 13 hours of motoring . That's what 3.5 knots in average speed means in reality (without motoring it would be more like 4 knots + ). Now , this is mainly downwind (trade wind) sailing which is not the fastest point of sail . If you compare the polars of an average production cat to a high performance cruising cat , the differences can go up to 10 knots easily depending on the POS.

[@johnhadley7000]

Obviously his point was that speed shouldn't be your only requirement but if I'm crossing an ocean and one cat gets me to my destination in 20 days and the other gets me there in 12, I'd be pretty interested in the faster cat.

[@pigmyable]

I hear you John. The time saving across the Pacific on a quick cat would be a month.

[@dustinhodge6706]

absolutely! Whoever wants to spend triple the time spent on an ocean crossing?

[@adamizett3169]

Thx for your videos. What is your experience with regard the FP Eleuthera boats?

[@rodgoddard6373]

I'm interested in your opinion re the new Leopard 50, and is it wise to upgrade motors from 57 to 80 hp?

[@bernardlang]

This is probably true overall but the Outremer have a very good reputation. They learn from past mistakes and with modern CAD it is increasingly easy to design right from the first go.

[@christianwolf8150]

Thanks for the great info. Gary is like a walking encyclopedia of knowledge on catamarans. I have a 3 yr plan to buy my own and will definately be using him when it is time to buy.

[@SlowBoatSailing]

Christian Wolf we have several more Gary Fretz videos coming up.

[@tropicalday88]

Really, there are some production boats that are better than others, and there are some semi custom builders that are better than others. This is a gross generalization of builders. Not to mention the fact that a performance cursing cat versus cursing cat storage space comment? Seriously? Weight is the enemy of speed on a cat. If you are performance oriented the fat cat production boat is a floating condo. Great for Island hopping. Some are more into the performance aspect of sailing. If you are not interested in performance then Outremer would be of little interest to you. If you are then Outremer and Catana not Lagoon, FP, or Leopard would be the boats of interest. Do your own research on the type of boat that you fits your type of sailing. Pushing out more boats to meet production numbers when it comes to boat building increases margin for the builder, it does not improve the quality of the build.

[@organicrich]

I truly enjoy the knowledge and insight.

[@johnnygo6187]

So interesting that you’d never recommend semi-custom. The arguments make sense. But I am curious about the higher end builders like Privilege that has a lot of years of catamaran building experience?

[@tigersharkzh]

Don't like flybridge cats. The center of effort is elevated, access to the boom is difficult, helmsman is disconnected to the rest of the boat.

[@glennlewman1377]

Love my flybridge. The more I use it the more I love it. When we are underway everyone loves the flybridge. I am cruising the tropics

[@angela1984a]

This aged well... The Lagoon bulkhead catastrophe anyone?...

[@heikogehrig]

What about longevity? Outremer claims their boats will last 50+ years. While pure marketing, they do have a reputation to uphold as well. Would Lagoon or Leopard make the same claim? Maybe?

[@williamstrong7258]

So glad I found this channel. Really great wisdom and full of knowledge. I've got a 5 year plan to get out cruising and will be watching these videos along the way.

[@jesusjaumot8799]

For what you are saying I understand there is no quality control in all manufacturers. They are not under the obligation of getting some kind of occupational license from an independent Survey instititution with an International accreditation and most of all is there an Insurance that protect you the buyer against manufacturing or design defects. It should be mandatory in all manufacturers and made then responsible for this.

[@jeffrudzinski]

It's great what the Outremer people did for them. I know nothing about sailing...but as someone who is mechanically inclined...for a new boat an awful lot of shit seems to break on it. Don't get me wrong, I understand it's being tossed around and boat maintenance is a job it itself and all that jazz, but shit that really shouldn't be a problem seems to be. Engines dying fairly regularly in particular.

[@michaelowen3061]

Outremer cat are choice best blue water ROCKET SHIP'S proven....

[@alphasxsignal]

Chris White boats will be around for many many many years.

[@lucianosantucci108]

this advice is pure gold

[@cliffordbradford8910]

so we should listen to somebody who wasn't smart enough to have hurricane insurance? Outremer may not be as big as Lagoon etc but they have a good rep and if the boat suits then it's like comparing a BMW to a Renault. Outremers literally don't depreciate because they're fairy unique in the market and the people who want to buy boats like that are a smaller but less served market. Talking about a $200K budgets and Outremers of any vintage is like chalk and cheese.

[@angela1984a]

Three years later this turned out to be pretty spot on...

[@rustie4242]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I will take a performance cat that actually sails well over a fat hulled condomaran any day. But I am going cruising because I love sailing not motoring..

[@johnhadley7000]

Some monohulls, you have to motor because the sails are flapping. If you watch Sailing La Vagabonde, you can see Riley is sailing his catamaran in only a few knots of wind. He mentioned on his old boat he would have had to start up the motor.

[@stinkintoad]

I totally agree.

[@geezergamers7101]

90% of "sailing" is on the hook. I much prefer the Cat on anchor. If all you like is sailing get a nice older Swan , fix her up and go for it. For me, I like to sail, but I prefer the exploration, scuba, and social aspects of cruising. I am happiest on the hook and hanging with friends and family.

[@catamaransailing]

Only just seen this... great impartial info about why not to buy smaller brands from a guy that represents large brands! That said, this video is about finding a boat for less than 200k and there are a lot more of those (used) amongst the big brands.

[@liongod1000]

OK, I hear what you say but there are exceptions.... take the St. Francis, now there's a great boat and with great back up too. What say you ???

[@billhanna8838]

Rule no 1 - a light cat is a fast cat, more weight less speed & safety.

[@oceanarchitect3222]

Nautitech 47 2002 what can we expect? Well built? Under $220

[@cartmanrlsusall]

Ocean Architect wharrams all day under 200k

[@tamara8908]

You mention Sailing La Vagabond and didn't leave a link to their site. If anyone wants to know how an Outremer performs watch SLV and make your own decision.

[@dukehartog3662]

You did not leave a link either.....

[@bernardlang]

kzbin.info/door/ZdQjaSoLjIzFnWsDQOv4ww

[@angela1984a]

It's not really that hard to find if you've ever used Google...

[@huds5005]

Same problem we have in the Navy first few Ships of a new class always have tons of issues and can take years unfortunately to get right.

[@angela1984a]

You don't think a US Navy warship is 'a tiny bit' more complicated than a Outremer Cruising cat. I do of course have hindsight at my favor since I'm writing this four years after you. But Outremer seem to have done pretty well for themselves. Beneteau/Lagoon on the other hand turned out to be a Giant Catastrophe with their bulkheads on the Lagoon brand...

[@flatflyeroz]

If you talk bad about a South African boat builder, leave a link or a name so we can do our research.

[@2thelight]

Great video lots of good information I'll get ahold of you when I'm ready to buy

[@SlowBoatSailing]

2thelightphoto I’m Linus, but Gary will be able to help you out!⚓️⛵️👍🏼

[@vidasencilla]

I've sailed for tests on a new Outremere 5x when it was the new model. They are very fast, and the one had the carbon fibre mast, but the truth is that once you load the boat with liveaboard creature necessities and comforts the polar chart can change considerably. I think this applies to all "fast boats", and in the end do not make for such a big difference.

[@icitlalistardust9060]

vidasencilla - interesting...So, what will be your choice ? Because I was budgeting a outremer51

[@sydneyconcerts902]

should i buy a toyota or a Porsche? thats what im hearing really mate

[@philipfreeman72]

Just like cars avoid the first production.

[@michaelowen3061]

And you fall short all round slow boat means slow boat...

[@JohnnyJohnson2136]

Still not sold on cats...

[@SlowBoatSailing]

We still like our 31' mono.

[@oceanarchitect3222]

My friend has a 47' custom... Amazingly fast, spacious and comfortable!

[@VERTICALWisdom]

Really? make a decision on purchasing your upscale Cat from a video in a bedroom with the closet needing repair. Come on.

[@1kaidoloor]

C'mon, nobody with brains makes a decision based on one KZbin video. Give the guys a credit for putting out their thoughts and experience.

[@dustinhodge6706]

unwise comments on this video. Every boat needs adjustments new or old. It's a house on water being smashed by salt water. What do you expect

[@FtLMale1]

I’ve learned not to prejudice my opinion on appearances, and I don’t base my decisions on one KZbin video... but he speaks from years of experience and what he’s saying makes sense.

[@Greenflashtech]

Sorry guys, this is such BS. You can't compare a semi custom semi-performance brand to a MASS builder that designs for the coastal charter market primarily. You get what you pay for. Production models also compete on price, so every bit of structure and every pump and fitting is made as cost effective as possible. Go get one of the hundreds of Lagoon 39's, they are nice boats, or get a boat that is catered to YOU. It is a different business model and they do not even compete with each other. This guy is just trying to slam Outremer and push his own agenda, very biased. Do your own research and speak to real owners, NOT BROKERS (SALESMEN) before you buy!

[@geezergamers7101]

I disagree. I have used this broker, I can't tell you how many times he said: "no not that one" based on price, age, or other concerns. Brokers make money on sales. The ones who don't care just try to sell you any boat they can. Gary in my experience will show you any boat you like, but he knows what boats are better. He will caution you on a Lagoon or Leopard that isn't good, he's not in Lagoon's pocket. If you want an Outremer or Admiral or Broadblue or whatever, he won't steer you away, he will steer you to the best one of those. He will also tell you and point out all the bad things about Lagoons and Leopards. Don't judge a man until you have met him.

[@jamesalford48]

0

[@pierricclot6544]

so never buy from a not big builder?

[@joseporto9658]

you lost me at "free work"!

[@xoox870]

This is only true for people who sail close to the coast and local. This is NOT true for blue water sailing across oceans. And ALL boats have problems new or old. This is *definitely* a salesman pitch and there are NO technical details about the construction and/or performance. This sounds like a used car salesman !

[@oldtimerman59]

if a cat gets blown over in the middle of the pacific its goodbye Charlie ....ill stick to monos !

[@johnhadley7000]

That's a very big generalisation. If you crash a Ferrari going too fast around a corner, do you blame the car or the driver? You could also say mono's sink, cats float. You could be more likely to be injured on a mono than a cat

[@oldtimerman59]

Cat owner perhaps John?

[@oldtimerman59]

Hi John ,yes cats are fast....but mono hulls when knocked down (due to the keel) have a tendency to self right even if some water is taken in , a little like a bottle ....where as a cat can get knocked over and due to the design stay knocked over and can sink ....a little like a Ferrari if driven off a pier if you will ...

[@johnhadley7000]

The point I was trying to make (but poorly) was that there's more to it than just "cats fall over and monohulls don't". I don't like how that's used to scare people away from cats. Catamarans have come a long way and I think people need to get a better understanding about the differences before being sucked in to that one very unfair straight comparison. There are too many organisations that use fear as a selling tactic.

[@oldtimerman59]

no worries John , at the end of the day , we make choices that suit our needs , cats are roomy and can go in shallow water and offer cruising without 'life on the lean ' ...i like my monohulls we must agree to disagree , smooth sailing and fair winds

[@ryanewbank9271]

Bla,bla,bla...

[@gman3725]

Completely disagree with you.

[@Stalefish6]

Stupiddd…vid… just … i like this and that… by the way i have boats to sell🙉🙈