Smart TV DACs

[@tototronic2]

A "smart" TV makes for a fun audio source. I can stay up all night watching concert videos on KZbin through my stereo system! While a good-sounding DAC will definitely help, the TV's sound quality will limit how good music will ultimately sound. In this scenario, I would recommend a Blusound Node. It can be used as a DAC to improve the sound coming from TV apps via an HDMI eARC input. But then you can also use any of the Node's numerous built-in streaming apps including Tidal, Qobuz, and Apple Music via Airplay. This will sound much better through a resolving Hi-Fi system. If you are using a soundbar, just continue to use the TV and enjoy!

[@james6039]

A word about Receivers. I haven't had one in my system since 1996 - but you know what - you gotta love them - they are awesome.

[@solarwind3656]

There's no denying that the movie/TV show + receiver experience is great bang for your buck. But for music and podcasts and listening, I'd go with the DAC everytime

[@bikdav]

I’m running a “conventional old school” analog stereo receiver. I use the toslink out of my TV to an external DAC. That works very reliably for me.

[@bsnf-5]

What DAC are using exactly?

[@bikdav]

@ INSIGNIA NS-HZ313. NO, it’s not an “audiophile approved” DAC, but it does a fine job.

[@bsnf-5]

@@bikdav thanks. Not available in my country sadly

[@bikdav]

@@bsnf-5 There should be a good inexpensive DAC available in your country. The INSIGNIA in my country is just one of quite a few that do the job nicely.

[@bsnf-5]

@@bikdav we have Fiio (D03K) DAC available in my country. ;) Do you think it could be good?

[@TorToroPorco]

Using the TV as a streaming source certainly has appeal from a user interface point of view but the operating systems can impose limitations on the digital signal that’s output from the TV. John Darko just did a video where he’s been testing his use of his Samsung smart TV to output the stream from various music apps into an external DAC and seeing the sample rates the DAC receives from his TV.

[@morenoschroeder]

Yes, i saw that Darko vídeo, he could only get 48khrz tops, the same as me.

[@stonefree1911]

Consumer DACs are pretty minimal. I replaced a Denon receiver with a Sprout100, and they "measure" similarly..., and the soundstage, clarity, and musicality (as Paul would say) was eye popping different on the Sprout. It really pays to get equipment from people that know what they are doing.

[@scottscottsdale7868]

Exactly this.

[@stonefree1911]

@@joanfrederick9176 Go used. Perfect way to get into hifi.

[@JC-lk3oy]

@@joanfrederick9176 I love my Sprout100, but I have to admit if you just care about sound quality, you can do just as well for less money. The build quality of the Sprout100 is definitely a lot of what you pay for. Smsl and topping are hard to beat for the money (especially if you don't need a phono stage) but the build quality is crap compared to a Sprout100.

[@JC-lk3oy]

@@joanfrederick9176 yeah, I hate to break it to you but you're pretty much stuck with Schiit if you want something quality, affordable, and made in the USA. Their speaker amps aren't cheap though.

[@stonefree1911]

@@joanfrederick9176 Schiit is pretty good stuff. I just returned a pair of Schiit Aegir monoblocks because they were to low power for my Wharfedale EVO's, but they sounded great when they worked. The Vidar is a great amp too. As far as Sprout being made in China, well...I bet a lot of the electronics you already own were made in China. The bulk of the profit goes to PS Audio, so I support them.

[@scottscottsdale7868]

2 channel audio is the way to go for tv and streaming via a separate streamer. I found that a great 2 channel system blows away a regular 5.1 system for TV movies and music. My weak link for music was definitely the AVR. Definitely. Once I got over that realization, it has been smooth sailing.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Two channel is crap when you don't live alone - period - you morons need to realize that in 2 1 or 5 1 the center speaker is the most important for movies and hence should be as identical as possible than the main speakers

[@JC-lk3oy]

@@joanfrederick9176 I would throw Rythmik right in there with REL for a sub. Those 2 companies I can never decide who I like better.

[@JC-lk3oy]

@@joanfrederick9176 yeah, all their subs are servo controlled. The higher end models offer speaker level inputs like REL, but a slightly different design. I like the speaker level input design better from REL but the servo control from Rythmik is a definite advantage for them. Hence why I can't decide who I like better. Rythmik makes all their products in house in Austin TX. I only mention that because you said you didn't want Chinese made products in the other post.

[@D1N02]

When using the optical Toslink the DAC in the Denon will be handeling the decoding, but it's maximum resolution is limited to the maximum resolution of the DAC in the smart-tv. Modern chips that do 4k tv usually also can decode 192khz/24bit so sufficient for streaming. If your Denon supports it then it is all OK. Sound quality wise a dedicated DAC between TV and Denon with analogue output to the Denon would likely be better, but you would have to invest in a good dac for it to be significant. At that point it would be advisable to also bring your Amp and speakers in line with the quality level of the DAC and to think about a dedicated streamer. When you do no High res, I would change nothing.

[@flipfloptanlines926]

When using Toslink the maximum bandwidth is 96/24. Its one of the few limitations of using the glass fiber. However this is rarely an issue, and the isolation benefit far outweighs the bandwidth in most mid fi setups

[@D1N02]

@@flipfloptanlines926 It depends on the senders and receivers. Originally it had a capacity of 3.1 mbps which would limit it to 96/24 but that has been improved to 125mbps. Plenty for 192/24.

[@Harald_Reindl]

The DAC in the TV don't matter because it is bypassed you genius - for the sake of god the limitations of Toslink have nothing to do with the DAC - frankly it would even work with no DAC in the TV at all

[@D1N02]

@@Harald_Reindl not so you less than polite person. The TV DAC puts through the digital stream and it can only do so at it's maximum bitrate or less. So it is a potential bottleneck. If there were no DAC in the TV no sound would come out at all.

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@D1N02 moron the DAC is not involved in a optical DIGITAL output because there is not AC aka analog conversion

[@iheartjetaviation2764]

Regarding DACs. A few years ago, I had no idea that a DAC could make such a recognizable difference in the music/sound experience. A few years ago, I saw Paul do a PS Audio video on DACs and I sent his company an email asking for some clarification. James from PS Audio responded promptly and convinced me to go ahead and purchase a DAC to use between my PC and receiver. After doing so, the difference is very impressive, if not down right magnificent. I purchased DAC #1, Modi 3 (unbalanced) from Schitt Audio (that's their real name) for $99. It has an optical input, as well as USB and COAX. I needed a second DAC for other equipment and got a Toppings D10s (unbalanced) for $109. This DAC does not have an optical input though. They both have made a world of difference in the purity of the sound, and despite my being a "non-believer" before the purchases, I am absolutely thrilled with the outcome. And I thank my buddy James at PS Audio for his expert advice!

[@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter]

I went from modi 3+ to modius, great products.

[@Thee_Jadex]

Thats great to hear i was heavily considering getting a schiit but was worried it really wouldnt be high quality enough have a big enough diffrence from just plugging the audio into my 2060 GPU

[@markdoherty2750]

Love this guy!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@Enemji]

I am confused. The digital audio signal from the TV is pass through to the AVR and decoded in the AVR. In other words the AVR has the DAC that does the decoding.

[@sudd3660]

you need to clarify. why do you need to have a audio signal from the tv in the first place? the tv is not a source.

[@endrizo]

@@sudd3660 yes it is. lots of people connect all to tv... then amp it. thats very common. they use the optic out in the tv. it works just fine. and what if you wanna amp the tv? so thats the easiest way to go. most people do that

[@flipfloptanlines926]

You are correct EnEm Gee. The title Smart TV DAC is um misleading. The TV DAC is not used at all with a Toslink connection in this scenario. The smart TV is acting like a streaming transport and passing digital to the AVR, which converts to Analog. And to the person below, YES, MOST folks use their smart TV as an audio transport for convenience. I would recommend though using a Shield for Google, or an Apple Tv external boxes as they have better processors and better usb options to connect directly to an external DAC. The Shield has the exact same interface as a Sony TV, but 10 times faster processing speed than Sonys most expensive smart TV

[@sudd3660]

@@endrizo common is not a reason, and definitely not a good one. that is the reason why people are confused and things dont work right, the whole reason for this video. so no it dont work.

[@Enemji]

@@sudd3660 - if the TV is using the TV input, it is the source of Audio Signal. Also if it is a smart TV, it is the source of the audio signal. With EARC, every digital signal(audio+video) fed to the TV can be split and the digital audio routed through the HDMI to the AVR where it is decoded and amplified.

[@PSA78]

I guess one question is how good the signal chain is in the TV to begin with, not that making it worse is better, but it might be quick to reach the point of diminishing return.

[@morenoschroeder]

Hi there, greetings from Brazil! I am using a smart tv LG Oled Evo C2 as a streaming source conected throught a toslink cable to a Onkyo receiver that has a 192/24 builtin DAC, but no matter what music quality i play on the TV, amazon music, tidal, spotify all of them set to its high resolution possible, i only get 48khrz on my receiver. That makes me believe that the TV DAC is limmiting the rest of the system. Am i doing something wrong? Is there anyway to get high res audio out if this gear? I may be wrong, but considering this cenario i dont really believe that buying a external DAC to be conected between the TV and the Receiver would change anything, am i right?

[@cdwtcdwt]

Thanks everyone for your advice on connecting a dac. Much appreciated. And yes Paul, you have it correct, NASA is here in Huntsville.

[@charlespalmer8450]

Even if he uses an outboard DAC, won't that analog signal enter the Denon and then be subject to an even worse analog-to-digital-to-analog conversion using the Denon's DAC anyway? There's probably a "direct" mode, but won't that bypass bass management, etc.? If so, he should be warned of this limitation (can't use his subwoofer, etc.).

[@AllboroLCD]

Do new TVs even have DACS anymore!?!? Last time I checked some dont even have optical out anymore!

[@mcplutt]

They all have optical out, but no analog out. They probably have some kind of DAC because of the built in amp and speakers.-

[@bsnf-5]

​@@mcpluttIt's impossible for a TV not to have a DAC. Do you even know what DAC is? Or you just assume music in your ears from TV is magic? lol

[@mcplutt]

@@bsnf-5 tell me more 😃

[@anotherOneMore7]

I'm just using a DAC because my amp doesn't have a digital input. Unfortunately the Schiit modi I have (circa 2020) doesn't like my Samsung (2020) TV. Online i see others with similar issues with samsung TVs . I need to get a replacement DAC that is compatible and could even be just "good enough" since it is TV audio source, as long as it actually works. (Note my current Schiit DAC works fine with other devices) Any suggestions?

[@bsnf-5]

Just buy a simple chinese dac, i got one for like 20$ and i couldn't care less. If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

[@3Cr15w311]

I live in Huntsville, AL. It's neat to have a question from here. My nickname is "Chris" to many, but it wasn't me who asked the question. :)

[@georgeageorgopoulos]

Hi Paul, interesting Topic!,.. I in my audio systems dont recommend audiophile DACs...the reason? oh well all other minicomputers (smartphones,tablets,smarttvs etc) have up to date HD Dacs, I only check the 3.5mm jack Analog quality audio ,..signal noise distortion dynamic-range etc...thats how i select which minicomputer-audio-source to use with my audio-systems...the best HD Dacs in minicomputers (smartthings) I find come from Chinese Brands like OPPO and LENOVO...

[@artyfhartie2269]

I recommend that when he buys a good DAC, he also buys a good audio analyzer to measure the improvement in frequency response as it is impossible to notice the difference with the naked ear.

[@geddylee501]

If you can't hear the difference without measuring, then don't bother?

[@artyfhartie2269]

@@geddylee501 Then no one will buy new gadgets and keep their vintage hi-fi. No one wants that.

[@bsnf-5]

​@@artyfhartie2269i bought my dac for tv for 20$. Couldn't care less about what any audiophile thinks about it. It works

[@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter]

I Rock a Modius on my Denon AVR, only doing stereo anyway, pure direct, bi amp/bi wire, sounds dope.

[@ptg01]

Generalizing: That's what gets Paul in trouble !!! :)

[@ericnortan9012]

I love my receiver, for surround sound movies and background music. But for great sound I like separates.

[@jkane1341]

My samsung smart tv compared to my computer, for whatever reason the TV is 10-20% less in volume, both connected via optical, makes me really consider getting a DAC.

[@sudd3660]

why use tv for output? a tv only needs image input, the rest of your gear does audio output.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Because the fucking TV cable is connected to the TV

[@mcplutt]

So where do you get this audio signal from then? Not from the TV?

[@mcplutt]

@@joanfrederick9176 A Smart TV is connected to internet in one way or the other.

[@sudd3660]

@@mcplutt blue ray player, record player, pc, and so on.

[@mcplutt]

@@sudd3660 On my Smart TV I stream music from KZbin and Tidal apps, and the other apps also contains music. Everything goes through the optical cable to my DAC.

[@RumblestripDotNet]

John Darko recently did a couple videos addressing this very topic.

[@NeilDSouza7]

Oh .. !!! I wonder if Android TV supports an external DAC via USB .. have not tried it out ... !!!

[@flipfloptanlines926]

The issue with using the USB for audio output on smart tvs is the limited processing power built into the TV. My sony will do it after complicated steps, but runs slow. Now i use a NVIDIA SHIELD and its fantastic! Same Google TV interface as Sony, runs any Dac with its USBs, fast, RF remote, add any external drive, and super small. Its actually attached to the back of my TV. I highly recommend.

[@NeilDSouza7]

@@flipfloptanlines926 That's cool.. Buying a SmartTV is actually useless because they do not pack the necessary specs into the TV itself .. You eventually have to buy an Android TV box (Like The Mi Box 4k from Xiaomi) or Google TV etc .. and you can actually use it also with a Keyboard and Mouse just like a Desktop Computer..

[@flipfloptanlines926]

@@NeilDSouza7 Yes, thats exactly what a Shield is. But the Shield has exactly the same interface as any high end Google TV

[@NeilDSouza7]

@@flipfloptanlines926 It's the Hardware Specs ... The interface is the same for all Google / Android TV both TVs, Dongles, and Set-top boxes...

[@cubinn149]

My sony za2100 receiver has amazing surround sound but ok 2 channel stereo audio for music

[@TomlinsonHolman52583]

Optical output on TVs create a lot of jitter. You may want to invest in a DAC with DPLL (digital phase locked loop), otherwise you may hear constant dropouts. I ran into this issue using optical out on LG and Samsung TVs, adjusting DPLL on my DAC completely fixed it.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Every time when you audiofools start to talk nonsense jitter comes up

[@mcplutt]

I never have any problems with my Philips and TCL Smart TV's.

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@mcplutt audiophiles even hear problems with power cables and buy one for thousands of dollars - the dumbest sort of people you can meet

[@DiRazor]

If you're not sure, just try noname hdmi arc audio extractor or something like that. You will know how good is your tv compared to a cheap, random dac 😀

[@bsnf-5]

By the cheap random DAC, you mean the DAC inside the random audio extractor?

[@DiRazor]

@@bsnf-5 Yes, like w $20 HDMI ARC audio extractor. Quick and cheap test if you hear a difference. Without starting to spend money on a good DAC. Btw. when you're on a budget, many times adding another $20 on a linear power supply to the cheap 'DAC' can be a way to try.

[@bsnf-5]

@@DiRazor Okay, I will surely think about these things while buying a new TV. Because now sure as hell my TV doesn't support HDMI ARC, it is an old TV i got back in PlayStation 3 era and only has normal "HDMI" ports. It does have a digital out though, which is good enough for me, combined with a cheap chinese "dac" (or audio converter, if you may). Somehow the TV still works, and refuses to die after all these years.

[@kobezcarz4558]

This is a great question

[@jimmygup]

Another helpful video. A question: I’ve been trying to get the Amazon Music HD app on a Sony Bravia TV to output in 24/192 but no luck. Any thoughts?

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🙋‍♂️ JUST an FYI … I am happy to say from personal experience…. Within the last couple years I replaced my TV with a TCL TV and I replaced the standard HDMI with a ZESKIT 8K UHD 4K 120 HDMI 🤩😎 for $21.00 into my new YAMAHA 3080 receiver ( yea a receiver)😁 …also using your PS AUDIO PERFECT WAVE AC-3 power cable and it is NOTICEABLY BETTER WITH YOUR CABLE AND THE ZESKIT AS WELL 🤗…this might be helpful to some who ( LIKE ME ) whose budget doesn’t allow for the SUPERIOR QUALITY OF YOUR EQUIPMENT…which I hope to get to see and hear 👂 … but you don’t have to take my word for it JOHN DARKO did a wonderful video on this with another brand of TV 🤗👍😍😍😍

[@NeilDSouza7]

OMG!!! He has a ShamSung TV... !!! Use the ARC or E-Arc for Good Audio on a decent A/V Receiver ... It works !!!

[@Harald_Reindl]

Only fools use copper when a optical link is available - you don't want a physical connection between different devices when you have a brain

[@NeilDSouza7]

@@Harald_Reindl Are you suggesting that HDMI is all BS !!! .. well practically every interface has its pros and cons and is in some way all BS.... This is the living room segment we are talking about.. not the Audiophile one.. I Keep a separate room for Audiophile Listening... 🔊

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@NeilDSouza7 the point is the electrical isolation of optical connections - it eliminates a series of possible issues

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@NeilDSouza7 and my living room is audiophile because I am not a fool given that I have I spend my whole life there working, watching the movies and listening to music on - 1200 liters of absorption are your friend - invisible

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Yes a $120.00 brand name receiver is good enough for casual audio listening. Most if not all modern receivers today are probably not repairable. The Circuit boards components are made and soldered in by robot’s. That is why computer mother boards are replaced not repaired. The more stuff that is stuffed into stuff the more likely of a failure somewhere. There is an old saying. “ Keep it simple stupid” Stupid stuff last longer.

[@troybooker3534]

Paul's tombstone...here in lies at rest... 'generalising again'..we all do it Paul 👍

[@atzeotze2256]

I am doing the same ! Working great.

[@126868]

external dac for a denon is the HELL of diminidhing returns and bottleneck . don't do this . let alone the price of your speakers and the proper set up.

[@joshua43214]

I have the flagship Denon AVR, and it's DAC is pretty meh. Bypassing the Denon DAC will surely make a big improvement using even a modest DAC. The problem is that the signal coming out of the TV is probably crap. Screens create so much noise that it really can't be effectively shielded with out spending a lot of money on a feature that few TV buyers want.

[@Harald_Reindl]

Hence you use the digital output and avoid analog like the devil avoids holy water

[@joshua43214]

@@Harald_Reindl Even small displays produce enough noise on a digital line to easily measured. Even people like Amir from ASR do not argue over this

[@Harald_Reindl]

@@joshua43214 a optical link couldn't care less

[@joshua43214]

@@Harald_Reindl And what, pray tell, is between the cable coming into the TV, and the optical port leaving? Oh, wait, those are just little elves that transport that signal. You are right, nothing to see here. Move along.

[@stephenstevens6573]

Yeah..just spend a few grand on a dac...why not? After all, it's only money...

[@stonefree1911]

Decent DACs can be had for $250 - 400. Ifi, Geshelli Labs, etc...

[@stephenstevens6573]

@@stonefree1911 agreed...but that's not exactly what he was referencing...as always in this hobby...more money means better sound...or does it?

[@stonefree1911]

@@stephenstevens6573 I see. I didn't really get that from his video tho, I thought he was speaking of buying high quality from HIFI manufactures. Which is usually higher priced. But a studious buyer can find good equipment at reasonable pricing (but rarely at "box store" pricing),

[@stephenstevens6573]

@@stonefree1911 my system in comprised of quality gear from high end manufacturers. But it's not brand new. I have no need to have the next best thing. I have a dac. A topping. Not a brand new one. If you are patient, you can find it. You just have to be willing to wait. I'm Willing

[@Harald_Reindl]

Because a good AVR has a good DAC - OK, not a denon

[@richardsoffice9176]

Another word, I feel, for, "Just good enough, barely adequate," is: Perfunctory. Slap - dash. Are WE Perfunctory people? NO!