Snnuy reacts to Drisoth's ROTATION Tier List - Snnuy Reacts

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[@xanithdegroot5407]

I think a simpler way to put the commentary on Bilgewater is to say Bilgewater hasn't been its own region since rising tides. It has just been an accessory for an archetype in another region. When was the last time we got a Bilgewater champion that was a wincon? Have we actually gotten one since Rising Tides? You can maybe count Nami but the win condition is buff Elusive units. Nami just provides the buffs.

[@stephenkrahling1634]

I was about to say Maokai but I realized he's not a bilgewater champ haha

[@scottwillian2120]

He isn't really a SI champ tho, he was meant for Nauti and Nauti for him...

[@pitagor2]

Illaoi

[@Evan-mt7bc]

@@scottwillian2120 That is true but when Maokai got Watery Grave he didn't need Nautilus anymore because he used Nautilus as the win condition but now Maokai has the win condition in the ability to mill the opponent's deck completely and he can use the toss or killed allies in other regions to get there from other regions to be more dynamic and interesting. Nautilus needs Maokai because he needs Toss and Maokai gives him more toss but honestly, if Nautilus could get a Runeterra champ that lowered his decksize to 20 or something he'd be even happier without Maokai.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

what should the region be about?

[@neveralive8550]

Wasn't every Bilgewater champion a prebuilt one? Quinn-MF scouts, Gangplank-Sejuani plunder, Maokai-Nautilus deep, TF-Vi card drawing and Fizz-Lee Sin spellslinging (both horribly designed, but the idea can be clearly witnessed), Tahm-Soraka starspring, Pyke-Rek'Sai lurk, Nami-Fizz pranks as cheap spells, Bard-Illaoi (both op at some point), Jack-Sett coins, Nilah-Janna card draw re-imagined. The only difference being some packages were succesfull strategies, and some were "let's create a new prebuilt archetype, putting A in 'region name' and B in Bilgewater.

[@wearbroom]

I dont think thats a fair definition of pre built because then every region would have almost all pre builts

[@neveralive8550]

@@wearbroom Champions in other regions are mostly more tied to their region identities. Like if I'm taking Targon as a secondary region I can take Morgana or Pantheon because of targeting and Targon is good at it; I can take Asol because I'm stalling and need big payoff and Targon is good at it; or I could take Zoe or Aphelios as value generators, etc. In a case of Bilgewater, the region reminds a Frankenstein's monster, made out of pieces that barely form an entity. Like could you tell that pyke, nautilus, miss fortune and illaoi are all from the same region? Probably no.

[@olivers.7821]

Yes, almost every deck came with an intended combination BUT Deep, Lurk and TK are decks that ONLY work in their intended decks. There is basically no way of putting those champions in another deck. That is what I would call prebuild lunchable.

[@SirDubbs]

I don’t think Snnuy knows what a lunchable is which is why he focused on prebuilt aspect and redefined the tier to his understanding.

[@wearbroom]

@@neveralive8550 while bilgewater does have alot of anti synergistic cards saying that bilge has no in built sinergy is a stretch Nilah and tf work very well together ,attune and jack work very well together , fizz and nami have a tone of synergy , gankplank and prize fight are both synergistic with how many cheap 1 dmg pings bilg has

[@RemniStrath]

Definitely questioning a lot of this list

[@travisprescott9708]

Fr, like why is yummi in "where's my package", since when did she need certain cards to work? You just put her on any unit with a good keyword or effect that wants to attack and you're good.

[@dragomaster2422]

Towards the end, you went through all the bilgewater “lunchable packables”. Dragons kind of used to be that way with Demacia and Targon being the MUST regions for dragons, but now you have a lot more flexibility with the eternal season last year and then Elder dragon. Maybe LoR can or will investigate each Bilgewater or general archetypes in a similar way, capping it off with a Runeterran card that can make that archetype flexible in an interesting way.

[@crissyg8515]

Idk who’ll see this but I have question for the community as a whole really. Spell slinging is an essential archetype in every card game so it’s going to exist in Runterra it always will. So I ask, what do you all want it to do? Because board buffs causes an outrage from cases like Nami but burn with Bibi also causes an uproar as well. How does the community suggest spellslinging wins games? Not diss to Sunny here but he states how he disliked both forms of spell slinging that exist without a way of fixing it.

[@crissyg8515]

For reference I play spellslingers in almost all cards games but Runeterra is one of the few where it feels like I’m always being dogged on for the play style I enjoy. I mean no hate, genuinely curious.

[@clownpiss5576]

The problem is that a lot of the community doesn't care if an archetype is balanced or not unless they play it themselves, they just want to play with and against decks that "feel fair". When a board-based deck is winning it's pretty blatant, but a spell-based deck could have a win in hand and you couldn't tell until they cast it. It's the same kind of reaction counterspells receive, it doesn't matter how balanced it actually is, they just don't want to "FEEL" cheated out of something.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@clownpiss5576 in a way it is similar to the ilusives problem, we feel we have no way to interact. also, if spell slinging is too fast and harder to interact with why play aggro? on the other hand, in most games is ok to lose to a spells based deck if the game goes long( agrro vs control) but in runeterra, with garanteed mana, and where games often go to 10+ turns the it may feel less fair as control deck stumble less.

[@shaddles]

If they can do the opposite to the "empower" mechanic, they'll be able to balance elusives more. i.e. for Zoe, if my power is 2+, I no longer have elusive.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

interesting idea. not flavourfull but efective.

[@dancingimmortal448]

I think they could add some more overlap in bilgwater cards like some lurk deep synergy. Heck you could use belveth as the champ that brings the two archetypes together have her level up on having a certain amount of attack and have thing like a 8 mana 4/8 that tosses 3 and for each minion tossed it lurks so it can be a late game power for lurk aggro or a toss minion for deep.

[@Silent_Eric]

I will forever defend Tahm Kench. He was typecast with Soraka, but there were other ways to play him. Frostbite with Freljord mitigated the damage, and any mana efficient way to give health also worked to keep him alive, like in Ionia. The problem is that Star spring soraka decks were the MOST efficient way for Tahm to work competitively. It wasn't that he was only designed to work with one deck. It was just the best one and no one but me played him with Lulu.

[@BoozhiOfficial]

I had a fun Demacia Barrier Lux strike deck with him as well

[@BoozhiOfficial]

plus Demacia capture cards which work specifically with him

[@Soli167]

Its just too much work to make him work with Ionia/Freljord/Demacia sadly. You have to jump through so many hoops for a champion that doesnt even win you the game, unlike say, a Fiora paired with the aforementioned regions. I think Demacia Tahm would've been better if we had more capture support beyond... 6 copies of detain. Bilgewater's capture support sucks too, we only have Bayou Brunch. They seemed to have this whole thing of ally capture to bypass his archetypes Self DMG, which he cant even do without Bayou Brunch (not even his generated spell).. I understand that his enemy capture is toxic, but ally capture has so much design space for him to not be toxic while being good imo.

[@ProitoOk]

​@@Soli167 I had a Tahm Kench-Udyr deck, and a very viable wincon of this deck was detroying the opponents win conditon with tahm and make them surrender. It was really hard to pilot, and very stressing to play, but playing that deck was the most fun i've had with LoR

[@scottwillian2120]

Lee Sin without easy access to overwhelm is okay! Finally able to use the recall part of the kick

[@FightingDuskstalker]

I miss Vi, but she needs to be reprinted. Something like a Brash with "when an enemy unit takes non-combat damage, I deal 1 to each adjacent unit" with a level up of "I've dealt X damage" and in level two, she retains brash and gets "when enemy units take non-combat damage, I strike the highest health unit." Built for flashbombs, but flexible enough to work in other P&Z decks.

[@Mattiasthesecond]

league of legend have their item give different bonuses depending if the champion buying it is ranged or melee, maybe runeterra need the same for ellusive buffs

[@whilliamblamet187]

I think the simplest nerf to elusives is the one landmarks got: a much more prevalent and oftentimes accessible option to kill them. Granting “blocks elusives” to a great many more minions is likely to mean a lot against understatted elusives. If that still doesn’t solve the problem possibly having them block elusives favourably then we may have a way to deal with these unfun smorc decklists.

[@bennyharvey8436]

Empires also gave us Irelia (only works with Azir) and Malphite (only works with Taliyah)

[@Asalios.]

Darius could get a rework in the form of Noxian Guillotine as a play effect (destroying a wounded opponent). Anything to keep him from being completely overshadowed by Firespiter >.>

[@lifeinanutshell7147]

So you are suggesting we should remake him into Broadmane the play effect >_

[@Asalios.]

@@lifeinanutshell7147 Why not? The effect of destroying a wounded unit is something deeply rooted in Noxus, before Broadman there was Noxian Guillotine (LoL's Darius ult) or Scorched Earth. So this change wouldn't be a big abuse in my opinion, and let's be realistic, with the power creep that currently prevails in LoR, leaving Darius in the form he currently has will make him useless, because every follower with the same commission cost from Noxus , offers more than a champion... If not this way, could it be going towards a new noxus curse? Something like: Darius All allied Noxus units gain Overwheal and "Nexus Strike: Curse your opponent with Inchor." ...or maybe something like the level up effect for the entire game like Heca had? Darius Once I lvl up, my opponent's health cannot be raised beyond 10 for the rest of the game. In fact, Darius deserved a rework or some solid buff centuries ago... And apart from his stats, which change absolutely nothing in his case, he was beaten and you know how often he is seen in the game ;d

[@lifeinanutshell7147]

@@Asalios. Darius is still seeing meta play in Gnar Darius. He is far from being useless.

[@Asalios.]

@@lifeinanutshell7147 To be honest, I haven't seen any of my opponents play him even once in the last month... At least half a year, I can swear that I've seen Darius in the game so many times that I can count it on one hand xD And anyway, as I wrote, I'm not surprised at all, why play him when you can have better alternatives in the form of a majority of followers, especially when we write about the connection of Freljord and Noxus... If I'm not mistaken, there is even a dog there that is currently 2/3 for 2 or if we want, we can play him 7/5 overwheal for 5... I would prefer him to playing Darius. But this is just my opinion, if you think that everything is fine with him, then cool... But to be realistic, it still makes sense in Standard mode, because the card base is slightly limited and the lack of Katarina does not declassify him xD As for the mentioned deck with Gnar, I play Freljord/Noxus with Gnar myself, but I use Sion which, although a bit slower, is a real threat all the time, and it doesn't eliminate me from most people, they remated without doing anything :/

[@ksarcturis276]

The end of this video made me think my phone was running out of batteries.

[@semicide5419]

I think rito can make elusives unbuffable or their buffs only lasts 1 turn even if its grant this would fix the issue

[@eirik2712]

An idea for elusive champions with nexus strike: they are kind of champion engines. What if instead of being elusive, every attacking turn they trigger their effect. This way, their counter isn't just the opponent randomly having an elusive, which is a very straightforward and rng heavy counter, while at the same time the opponent doesn't take that much damage and can't be "elusived" to death, which no one likes, not even if I win with a deck like that. Perhaps a way to counter their engine would be needed as well though. I think either way that winning with elusives never felt good and it should be made less binary like the other mechanics (overwhelm, challenger, level up mechanics etc). I think the level up mechanics are great and satisfying because there are so many routes you can take both in deck building and when playing and there is a lot of depth, compared to elusives

[@goncaloferreira6429]

interesting ideaon that first paragraph.

[@Sensei_Emu]

Idea to fix elusive buffing for things like Teemo. For those cards you don't want the buffs to work, give it a new keyword with the following effects: if I strike the enemy nexus, I *insert keyword name* instead. It's basically a nexus strike but removes any damage dealt to apply the effect instead. This way you can still block with them and you can give them the elusive keyword as a 2nd keyword because they can't be used in aggressive elusive decks

[@goncaloferreira6429]

focus on abilities instead of damage.

[@ivancalvo4055]

i dont think ziggs or xerath would be big balancing problems with the new explorer cards. i may be just delusional but i really want to play ziggs taliyah in standard again

[@dutssz]

I feel like elusive is just annoying because of the crushing lack of units that can block it, if your facing elusives the only way to engage in anything against them is to play elusives aswell, more regions should have the "I can block eluisves" vocab and the ones that already have should have more of it then just one unit edit: but of course doing so not only impacts the elusive buffing archetype but also the small fair nexus strike elusives which is not solving much with the elusive problem

[@goncaloferreira6429]

not being blockable is the point of ilusives. they are not the problem. but the game needs better balancing for sure.

[@Picabeba]

I think udyr at 6 mana would be fun with eddy

[@scottwillian2120]

Ezreal, Heimer and any champ that was fucked by the play/cast merge should NEVER be out of eternal. They aren't made for the current LoR

[@Vinicius-Bigode]

I like the comment "I like Illaoi's idea, but yeah she's a bit toxic" completely transfer over her gameplay in League.

[@hefi1357]

Bibi idea should have been a champion. Bilgwater should delve more into kegs and similar *increase damage dealt by spells*, and RNG cards. Temple should be a bilgewater card.

[@nuckfalu]

what does he say when he’s talking about illaoi? “___ on one, and illaoi on 4”

[@pablogg7200]

Watchful Idol

[@ajkcool]

They should just make Lissandra require Titanic units already, now that those have been introduced

[@thegoat9219]

My kalista decks aren't the same without kindreed :(

[@mune_mune]

I just want Ziggs to come back, not every region can take advantage of his landmark mechanic. And Soraka, cuz that healing gimmick sounds fun, they just need to tweak it a bit more.

[@mathiasrojas2712]

the this isnt working out tier doesnt make sense to me tbh

[@williamprice3730]

Why not make Illaoi lvl up this: I've deal 15+ damage with unit that have been summon. So this way she still can use the tentacle and she'll probably be good with Shadow Isles (Gwen) or Bandle City (Norra) even PnZ with (Heimerdinger) etc

[@itsAlphaa]

yep seconds and im here ✌🏻

[@scottwillian2120]

Renekton is what Darius wants to be. A good and cheap overwhelm unit with an ability???? He is just good, no more, no less And his suport cards have been buffed a lot recently

[@gecgoodpasi1654]

I think Kindred and Lee Sin would just destroy the entire meta atm. so they cant come back or alot of control cards immediatly get unplayable :/ like kindred atm. with our cards in this meta would be unstoppable 🤣 i personally rly want anivia back its such a unique and fun standalone effect that just works well with mordekaiser too and freljord/SI decks would rly want anivia over voli often i feel bonus points for being a 6 drop to make a potential super control elder dragon variation. In general the meta is pretty top and value heavy i personally like that but it wont hurt to bring some tempo back into the game they should avoid uninteractive combo decks tho. and any 6+ drop champion has alot of added potential now with elder dragon so maybe get some of them back :D

[@proj3ct-87fury6]

Teemo is an issue because of the trap archetype. 😂

[@cyan7152]

that not fair... If Aphelios still banned, Ban Udyr as well... and Its now not broken anymore

[@LichKingg23]

If it's not prepackged it is a generic card, that will see play everywhere, like TF, and after a while you only see decks with the Generic champion like the Samira, TF, Elise and Kai'sa reings. But if you go too far, we get Deep, blade dance, Elites, Darkness, etc. The goal is to be balanced but I prefer prepackged to "why would I ever play any 2 costs when I get Elise".

[@scottwillian2120]

Would Vladimir really need tweks? All his followers(freljord and noxus) are out, and not that great for standard I think he would be strong, but his support is meh

[@robertallen789]

For the last time. Elusive units should have a static power. I do not care. No exceptions. They are a 1 power unit? That is the highest power they can ever have. Let frostbites work. Fine. But never higher. Give the empyrean a reason to be played.

[@hilito5612]

Man, i miss soraka

[@Alucard632]

Ezeral with lvled seraphine would just be evil lol

[@joshabrillo4237]

Here i am spamming ezreal seraphine akshan in eternal😂

[@nicodemous52]

Mao would be ok if he didn't take away the opponent's deck. That's actually why I don't play Hearthstone anymore. I played it a ton, stepped away at some point. a couple years later I come back and I see things like Jabberwok and "Destroy your opponent's deck" and I was like, and I just quit again and never looked back. Even if they were not in rotation at the time. Even knowing they'd go out of rotation eventually. The fact that they even printed such anti fun garbage I said naw I'm done. The reason Mao doesn't make me leave the game is he has to actually earn it, it's not just a drop to pull off. And, frankly, I've not found his decks to be that great. Or at least, I've rarely felt helpless and outclassed against one of them.

[@nicodemous52]

And personally, I've got a deck with Nami, Sariphine, and Heimer and it doesn't focus on elusive, and it's ok.

[@scottwillian2120]

I think Jayce is annoying, but Heimer comites more crimes Jayce always appears with a new 6 cost interesting spell, they are not always that good, but fun!

[@enoeht]

Bard needs to get rotated out of standard and reworked.

[@ireful2617]

Yasuo needs to come back.

[@ceshadow]

Give me ezreal and I'm happy 👍

[@felliu7785]

Please give lux.

[@ReveredMaster]

Abusing Mono shurima? How dare you!😑

[@Koookiez]

Making the screen dark slowly is very fucking annoying holy shit

[@angrykook1]

How is Jack not working? Jack/Sett is insanely fun to play, the most fun deck I've seen in a while. Doesn't have to be Tier 1 to "Work"

[@gizel4376]

they should add to the keyword elusive: buff are halved(rounded up)

[@FightingDuskstalker]

To my knowledge, a lot of those snowball decks are about consitantly giving small buffs, like, +1/+1, +2/+1. So that kind of nerf wouldn't be so impactful. What I think would work better would be to introduce more counterplay. More units that can block elusives, spells like Sharpsight or Quicksand, maybe something to kill a unit if its power is double its printed value...

[@gizel4376]

@@FightingDuskstalker no i mean the total of all buff are halved and it's pretty fitting for elusive since they're supposed to be small unit

[@sohanbiswas3647]

@@gizel4376 gigachad "The Great Beyond" celestial would like a word with you.

[@gizel4376]

@@sohanbiswas3647 well i should have say elusive unit are supposed to not be stat effective, and is you consider the trouble to get a great beyond part of the cost, it still fall into that category of stat ineffective

[@sohanbiswas3647]

​ @gizel4376 I was just joking mate. I agree with you that elusives are supposed to be small, but the great beyond also has fury and spellshield(i think) so it's not stat ineffective

[@ReaverMoggy]

Honestly I generally agree with this list. Most of it is right.

[@SirDubbs]

For those confused by Snnuy’s prebuilt deck comments, I don’t think he knows what a “Lunchable” is (which I’m assuming those are common to the US and a rarity/non-existent where Snnuy lives) which why he went to into a discussion about prebuilt decks which can lead to confusion.

[@UnhlpfulYoda]

Lee sin needs to return gtfo

[@misteltein3420]

Disagree with bringing back Gangplank. After re-imagined plunder he can be quite toxic. Viktor can come back, just change his cost reduction to something more augment or keyword specific, mb that path of champions stuff "when you play another ally grant it a random keyword" or "give it augment". Mordekaiser should be standart only champion, he needs to be rotated from eternal. And honestly, I'd prefer ED rotated rather than nerfed.

[@ReaverMoggy]

100% disagree. Bilgewater is garbage with most of their champs either unplayable like Nami or stuck in prebuilt archetypes like Naut and Pyke. Bilge needs a general tool wincon champion that synergizes with all the pings and plunder effects so Gangplank is perfect for that. If it was up to me, I'd give him a rework that focuses him more on kegs and empowered spell damage instead of the more aggro/tempo style he has now. Regardless he has to come back and save the region.

[@Sniperjet_LOR]

I agree with the 1st reply. These are some serious hot takes buddy

[@misteltein3420]

@@ReaverMoggy Partially agree. Bilgewater agro is the only thing that doesn't seem chained to a specific archetype, but it doesn't change a fact that Gangplank is nothing more than an agro finisher. Bilgewater agro package looks lonely without him, true. But if GP comes back, he will only be played in Noxus-Bilgewater agro deck, which lost some cards but gained some new powerful ones. I wouldn't consider GP a general tool wincon because there is no such thing as general Bilgewater. The vast majority of cards are deck specific and you rarely consider billgewater a viable secondary option while building a deck.

[@scottwillian2120]

Kindred would be too toxic with Morde in the game. Kindred by herself is a bit toxic, but mordekaiser was made to take her slay archtype, she can't exist with him.

[@sagittariusa2145]

Drisoth absolutely succeeding in his goal to "piss off as many people as possible" in his words. edit 1: after watching I slightly retract my statement edit 2: i have a question, why do you dislike heimer and jayce? Aren't they one of the coolest spell payoffs? Jayce, forcing you to make awkward plays with 6 mana spells, giving opponent lots of agency because of the spell cost being so fixed. And Heimer being a high risk high reward payoff for playing spells. And without the HP buff from nugget, the elusives are easily dealt with by many decks; plus heimer level giving extra hp on turrets finally matters.

[@Sniperjet_LOR]

💀 clearly you haven't played a deck without pings

[@madmanoliver]

Heimer Jayce existing prevents more interesting versions of that deck from existing. Like you only ever play them with each other. At least one needs to go imo. It's also got the lurk problem- the exact same deck has been consistently at least okay since it first hit the meta, and whenever there isn't some dominant meta-warping force and the meta is relatively balanced- they end up being problems.

[@sagittariusa2145]

@@madmanoliver More interesting versions of that deck? Could you give some examples? What are you envisioning? I think Jayce Heimer is a really interesting deck with a lot of play from both sides, but maybe I'm missing some other version of the deck that could be more interesting? Also, I don't think "at least okay all the time" is inherently bad; it's only bad if the deck is bad to play against, and without nugget and brash scraptraption, Jayce Heimer is completely fine to play against imo.

[@SirDubbs]

@@Sniperjet_LORHaha, this guy does scream “I only play decks with BC or PnZ as a region” 😂

[@sagittariusa2145]

@@SirDubbshonestly….. true

[@crispycakeproductions3535]

I don't like how whenever you bring up nami you focus the blame on that card. But the only problem you seem to have with nami is elusive. Every mention is followed up by "her" problem. Instead we could focus on the real problem. nerf elusive. You even admitted that she broke the cookicutter mold, but you still blamed her for what elusive did wrong. Nami would be fine if elusive were less powerful. Your takes super baised, but understandable. I hate mageseeker junior, but the rest of the deck is the bigger issue. GEM is a nightmare rn. Boot up a nami deck and come get a taste. I'm telling you you need to reconsider your stance on nami.