SNS 373: Fixture Plate Machining, Vise Jaw Inspections

In this SNS I'll share more machining on another set of fixture plates I have been working on. I also got in some new vises and vise jaws and want to give them an out-of-the-box inspection to compare the readings on heights.
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[@ianlangley987]

Hi Adam, Ian again from New Zealand. I commented on an earlier video about insert tolerance versus surface finish. The insers you are using from Walter, the SDMT, is not a precision ground insert as the tolerance is 'M' which is quite wide if you are chasing a finish.. Also those inserts dont have a wiper flat on them as it shows a 08 or 1/32 corner rad so this won't won't be helping either. The SDMT inserts will have a honed edge on them from the factory and if your chip thickness is not above the size of the hone you are effectively cutting on the radius of the hone and the chip is not getting onto the top rake face of the insert.There are lots of things to consider when altering feeds and speeds as this changes the chip thickness as well. I hope this helps. Cheers Ian

[@swedishpsychopath8795]

Hi Ian with kangaroo breath: Maybe you should try to enjoy the show instead of trying to change a79 and the way he does things? If you are such a master who knows everything, maybe YOU should make your own videos?

[@mikedyson7330]

He's only trying to help .LIGHTEN UP.

[@colinfahidi9983]

@@swedishpsychopath8795 Maybe you should stop trolling?

[@ianlangley987]

@@swedishpsychopath8795 You just don't get it do you. I am not trying to knock Adam, Iadmire the way he operates, just trying to help. I suggest you go out and smell the roses!!!

[@mikestanley8605]

Kangaroo Breath. !!! New Zealand !! no kangaroos in Kiwi land

[@SolidRockMachineShopInc]

Thanks for the shout out Adam. Steve

[@trainedtiger]

As far as it goes for getting those mirror finishes in a CNC machine, think about it like this: "Anything you can do to make the material separate from the part easier" So high pressure coolant, well directed coolant flow, good coolant concentration, sharper edges on inserts (sharper by design, not like sharper from less wear, i.e. polished inserts, smaller nose radius,, etc.), running at the upper limit of Vc surface speed, very small depth of cut for finish pass of like .005". That is how you get those better than ground mirror finishes with zero presence of tool marks in a CNC. For what you were describing I would rough it for high MRR with your 1" high feed, leaving just .005, then finish with a sharp insert in your 2" facemill and have the 2" tool do nothing else except that finish pass.

[@stewkingjr]

Watching your journey through the CNC world is very interesting. Please keep making videos like this.

[@number40Fan]

Stress relief.

[@JimWhitaker]

Really interesting to see the small things coming good. Fascinating.

[@mfc4591]

I really like the look of the finish on the chamfer. Thanks Adam, for the video.

[@angelramos-2005]

You are getting into it,Adam.Very pleased to see the results you are getting on the vise jaws.Thank you.

[@RobertGracie]

Nothing beats Abom79s videos, great pick me up after work!

[@avoirdupois1]

I'm enjoying watching you make new items with the CNC mill. This is an amazing technology.

[@RobertBrown-lf8yq]

Hi Adam. One of the advantages of the Tallon Jaws + separate ‘bites’, is that the jaws can be touched up on a standard Surface Grinder. The Alligator Jaws on the other hand, need to be ground using a ‘dovetail’ wheel in a vertical spindle ( ie set up and dress a cup wheel in your mill spindle. The jaws will obviously need to be clamped with a parallel . I’d say the variation in the plane of the Talon Jaw ‘shelf’ areas is due to distortion when heat treated. Regards Robert

[@tzebra]

Always enjoy your videos and the education I take from each. This made me think of the NIST measurement video I watched. Their level of measurement is mind blowing. Even light itself is factored out. Well worth the watch, if only for the knowledge.

[@tracydiller9378]

Great video Adam really enjoy your videos. True master at what you do.

[@DrunkenBobDole]

I use a ton of Walter tools at work and normally run the WKP35G grade at 850-1000 SFM, dry on steel and I get crazy tool life. If you're looking for a nice shiny finish it may help to kick your cutting speed up even if it's higher than the recommended specs. It also helps to use a different tool for roughing and finishing, not only do you get less wear on your finisher but you can put some wiper inserts in your finish tool.

[@anthonymarino4260]

again thanks for the education and another fine Saturday nite

[@shavedmonkey9821]

cnc is so satisfying when you start to understand it, i now always do a demo run with tool 1/2" above z:0 when running a new code.....takes longer but saves you $$$s in the long run....ive destroyed hundreds of carbide endmills learning... run into the bed once...had stock fly out of the vice a few times....been drenched in coolant...had the whole shop raining milk...tripped the electrics....had to hit that big red button many times and hit the brake on the spindle...i levelled off a 120kg anvil in there once and had a light show like 5th november in london....had the machine dancing and tripping the stops...i lost that many steps i should of installed an elevator....but that was all my own self learning...i think your doing amazing Adam

[@nocturnhabeo]

Hey Adam it really cool to see your process of learning a new system and working process. Most of the machining I see on KZbin is either years of experience or someone who doesn’t care about actually learning. Thanks for the great content.

[@KendrickMachineShop]

Looking good, Adam. Always enjoy your content!

[@edvig2015]

as others have said..you should have roughing mills and finish mills for each OP if you want the best finish over and over on each part...carbide doesnt last forever..you cant expect to hog and finish with the same mill ... be it end or shell...also get a proper finish face/shell mill

[@kimber1958]

thank you Adam you're looking quite well these days if you are inspiring by pushing yourself unto that CNC thing good for you

[@metro_ss]

Really enjoy watching the videos with the new equipment.

[@bernardwill7196]

You do it right, to learn CNC. Greetings from Germany.

[@ronnydowdy7432]

Good show ❤

[@SeishukuS12]

I always got a super nice finish with face mills by running a shallow depth (0.005") and twice the feed and twice the RPM you would use otherwise. Always gave me a super nice bright finish, even on the crappy CNC import mill I use to use.

[@scyclone23]

Interesting, i find running twice spindle but 15IPM to give a great finish

[@denisrobertoheuser4279]

Hello Adam. Something that also infuences the finish in facing operations, is the depth of cutt. Just like in turning operations.

[@davidsellars646]

You mentioned that this plate had been flame cut. For the precision you are after, I'd think that they need to be normalized to remove the induced stresses.

[@brianhillary7469]

I believe if it was in the jaws or the Abom clamp force your bevel on the outside radius should still line up. Because it is still under the clamping force and you just surfaced it. So I don't think that it's you or your set up. Thanks for taking us along and letting me learn along with you. Another great video!

[@sautung63]

Hello! I from San jose , California in my experience, before you finish the surface, you loosen the clamp and then clamp it lighter, you try!

[@scyclone23]

In the shop i work at, when we are doing RIP finishes, we generally double the spindle speed, but drop our feed to 15IPM and take .005 for our finish pass, it works well for aluminum and stainless, as for the tool marks, they show up a lot more in stainless even at 15IPM. Still trying to dial it in personally for stainless but i do know that fresh inserts help a LOT with the finish, chipped or not.

[@blakejones116]

Sometimes you will start to drag chips through the cut, when your chip load gets too small. I think that is the dull finish on the face mill. Try cutting dry at about .007” per tooth, you could raise it up, for a trial.

[@TomDetka]

That is what I have read as well. Too small of a chip load ends up trapping chips under the face mill and smearing them around making a dull finish. You gotta make a cut that makes a chip heavy enough to be thrown away from the cutting interface.

[@jasonhull5712]

Looking good Adam. Personally I miss the manual machining content but it’s like the rest of the world I guess, technology and all… If I’m being honest it’s mostly to do with the simple fact I will never be in a position to stuff a CNC machine in my little two car garage. I’m perfectly happy with my mill and my lathe. It’s kinda hard for me to sit through a cnc operation video but I’ll keep checking back. Hope you have a good day sir.

[@rodiona8781]

Jason there are CNCs you can fit into your bathroom. They have a small footprint, need modifying to make very good but only a couple hundred dollars.

[@jasonhull5712]

@@rodiona8781 lol, I could imagine that actually. But unfortunately it’s not just the space. I can’t figure out how to use most of the functions on my DRO, could you imagine me trying to figure out how to program a CNC ? Lol not to mention the tooling cost from all my crashing. I’m not hating on CNC, nor am I complaining about Adam’s content. I’m still a fan. I just can’t seem to muster the interest that I have for manual machinery. It’s more like computer programming and less machining to me. And i hate computers. I’m pretty sure they hate me just as much too. Thought about trying out my skills with a 3D printer once, the computer portion ended that interest relatively quickly.

[@ЖелезнаяЖизнь]

​@@jasonhull5712Очень разделяю твоё мнение, я так-же воспринимаю CNC больше как программирование чем металлообработку.🤝

[@rb032682]

cool stuff

[@TomDetka]

I'm still pretty green on face mills but I have read and found through experiment that. Decreasing chip load is not always the answer for a good surface finish. Some times if the chip load gets too lite and the chips get too small the get caught in the face mill and smear the surface. What I have found helps is lower your SFM and increase you IPT. That has generally worked well for me. I have also heard that wiper inserts work wonders for super shiny finishes but have yet to try them on my own stuff.

[@halfinchholes88]

I know the feelings. I took a job as a moldmaker into an established CNC shop. Luckily, they were tooled-up with MAHO CNC machines. Still, they were aggressive with CNC machining. No practice cuts and 'cutting air'. Good German Bosses. Learned a lot.

[@mikejackson3564]

Found out yesterday, someone broke into my storage unit and got my tools.....Gerstner 2610 Journeyman Chest, almost full or Sterrett Mics and levels, a couple of Brown and Sharpe.....Kennedy 360 with 2602 & 2603 full of reamers, taps, drill bits, etc..... It hurts my soul all the history and stories those boxes and tools had went to some SOB for pennies on the dollar for a quck fix..... can't believe the replacement values of just those two units.... not to mention my g*nsmithing tools boxes they got.... trying to remember how many GO/NoGO/Field guage sets I had..... raise a glass/pint for me this weekend, my friends......

[@mikebrowne5152]

It'd probably be better to put the jaws on the vise in the machine and put the indicator in the spindle and zero the Z at the indicator zero and check them in the machine. You have an error stack with the SMW plate and the vise and the jaw mounting to account for. That will tell you what's up. Also probably a good idea to load the jaws with a couple of 123 blocks when you take your measurement.

[@lubyjr65]

I am not a machinist by trade, but very mechanical. It seems to me that measuring on the granite plate is great to check the jaws. The real test would be how they measure once mounted in the vise on whatever machine you are using. Do the fasteners and machined holes that the fastener use change how level the jaws will be as used?

[@kevinreardon2558]

I'm not anywhere near an expert in this stuff. To get those grooves in the surfacing cuts to go away, you might want to consider putting the cutter into a surface mill to get all the cutting edges the same height. But then again, some simple manual sanding could get rid of that type of finish. I'm sure Stefan Gotteswinter would have something to say about this .

[@matthewlee8917]

I went to only using those talons on the first ops. Then drop down on ground parallels for additional oops. I’ve wondered if that was the planned usage.

[@tmackinator]

Try a non optimized tool path either a spiral in or back and forth for a improved surface finish. Its possible you are experiencing internal material stress resulting in the .003 difference in thickness.

[@chrismayhew3651]

I love my Mitee Byte jaws - I have the 4 to 6 inch version, they are my "go to" for first op work. I would be interested to know the height consistency of the set of Te-Co vices (the base where parallels would sit). I have a pair of matching Glacern vice and two sets of the same parallels which match pretty closely as I recall. This seems to work well when using two vices to hold the same work piece. Regarding the machining tool paths, if you use a contour machining op you could, for example, get a much more consistent tool pattern on that plate with one center key. I'd be surprised if that wasn't part of the conversational programing - and it can only improve the surface finish. The side with 2 keys might require a contour around the key on each side and a facing operation between the keys. Leaving some stock around the keys and finish off with that 1/4" endmill. That really is a nice surface plate :)

[@kaydog2008]

Great finishes are done with slower feeds. For those who don't know. Just like the tighter wood are. The better a sanded finishes you'll achieve. Plus having a CNC diamond surface polishing bit in your arsenal is an absolute must have. 🤔🤔Hey Adam maybe just torquing the bolts on the jaws are pushing them out of paralle. Try leaving them just snugly bolted clamped on paralle than dial test. 👁👁See if that solves the issue.

[@chrisburbank6484]

kept watching expecting you to regrind the jaws. just a nice dusting could help. I've kinda found if the fixturing is off that the work is going to be at least double the error. some kinda luck or what ever.

[@blakejones116]

Do they recommend flood coolant on the Walter inserts? I use almost exclusively Kennametal or Ingersoll and usually never use coolant. I’ll use through air instead

[@ldftrdnk]

After tramming the vice, then tramming the tops of the jaws installed, would be beneficial to skim the tops of the jaws on the machine to gain the parallel & flat surface consistency?

[@dangodbout7818]

If you're looking for a better finish remove half of your inserts. That always work for me.

[@ellieprice363]

Dan Godbout: I think you’re on to something there. Maybe use a larger face mill with a single insert to fly cut. The best finish I’ve ever seen on steel, other than grinding, was fly cutting.

[@NotJRB]

I know nothing about machining but what I see in this sort of video. With that said, for the wild holographic looking finishes, would it be possible to clean it up I just doing parallel passes? Would that be cutting away too much of the metal? Just curious.

[@rickschattilly6398]

What changes occur once inserts are torqued in the jaws.

[@robertwest3093]

Maybe a couple of small jacks lightly tightened underneath would help with the finish? That's a fairly large part that is also thin and it may be bouncing up and down some.

[@ratmadness4858]

learning is the fun part

[@zaccoon6015]

it would be so cool to see you do a side by side comparison of a part one with CNC and the other manual.

[@Hank_Snow]

Adam, you are certainly more experienced than myself in the machine shop but in my few years it's always been speed up the spindle, slow down the feed rate and take a couple thou for a finish pass. I'm sure I ain't telling ya nothing ya don't know but can always try a different coolant altogether (something a little more slippery). Also, I always thought .002 was the target chipload? Prolly a moving target but that's what I always taught in the makerspace. GL man, as always totally enjoy your videos. Making me very much miss my access to the CNC machines.

[@chrisc4088]

When I clamp wide parts, it will usually bow up in the middle, making the middle thinner. Could this be happening here?

[@kaceenunez5330]

Shoulder mill is not the same as face mill. I chased surface finish doing the same thing as you with a shoulder mill. You can make it work but you are going to have to go much higher on sfm and make sure you dont have any low hanging inserts.

[@andrewstoll4548]

I'll bet it is an inconsistent anodizing. That's why the edge is off. You get a radius there.

[@mdvener]

You'll get down to second nature. Going from manual to CNC is just going to take time. Just like manual machining, it took time. I know you will do it. You are to smart to be defeated. It took me years to become a good electrician. So if I can learn you will to. Very proud of your progress. Winners never quit, n quitters never quit. And I know you are not a quitter.

[@PhotoArtBrussels]

Does anybody know why the CNC makes these funny curbed paths instead of straight lines? Is there an option to set path alternatives so it prefers straight lines?

[@brettbuck7362]

It's not magic, it will happily make straight lines if you program it to do them, this is a programming choice that minimized the time off the part.

[@TomDetka]

Those are some kind of HSM tool path. They work great for roughing letting you take deeper and heavier cuts without "shocking" and thus breaking the tool. I'm not sure about how he is programming or what options are available but when I want a nice consistent straight line finish like your talking about. I will use HSM to clear out all but the last 0.005 - 0.010 of material and then switch strategy to get that more straight line look on the floor and smooth out the wall finish.

[@larryrobinson7492]

Nothing new to you I'm sure but a few things I see machining 4130 hardened steel is stress relief, we stress relief before machining but even then if you try to machine equal amounts off both sides it usually turns out flatter. Also I was thinking if that was bolted down to a fixture or table instead of vice I think it would turn out flat, especially if you did some finish passes on both sides. I think about .015" finish pass gives good results for me. My $.02

[@elmarqo_3448]

Is the finish tool path the same as the roughing tool pass? A finishing tool path differing from the roughing tool may produce a better finish to the final product. Can you scrap in the Talon jaws?

[@jughead8988]

Adam, with a CNC machine couldn't you do a final finish and do a jeweled design like on a high end rifle bolt?

[@bobbyvance6622]

You need to check to the squareness of the clamp surface of the jaw to the top. The check you’re doing is flatness not the actual clamp situation. Just a thought if you want accuracy.

[@daver681]

Adam, Do they make some sort of a buffing wheel to go over something with to shine it up

[@passenger6735]

If your part is not coming out true due to a vice jaw intolerance, depending on how you turn the piece over for Op2, you will double the error. Decreasing the feed rate is not always the answer to a good finish. It could be insert, coolant, or speed related. On a slightly different tack; Your machine was brand new when installed. It has now been 'run in'. Have you checked the gibs.

[@PhilG999]

Probably won't make any difference functionally, but I thought about using a radius cutter instead of the 45 degree one for the chamfers?

[@enginebill]

If you want a nicer finish, put it in your shaper.

[@walterhiegel3020]

There are a lot of details that need to be worked out when you introduce new equipment and new machining processes, You have to make sure that your tools are within tolerance of the manufactured specs and then work on your process to understand what your capabilities are.

[@williamrunyon7768]

Could you run them through the surface grinder and maintain flatness and get a better finish?

[@BobobertRS]

It is not the hight of the jaws its the stress inside the stock material must be tempered before machining.

[@jamesworsham125]

Hey Adam, Your knowledge, skill, and presentation skills are awesome! The company could not afford to sell the jaws if made to the tolerances you and I would like. 😉 An old boss once told me that splitting tenths is like picking fly poop out of pepper! 😜

[@jjbode1]

Even with those tweaks, you're still running that automatic shortest-path feature you described, aren't you? That's what seems to make the irregular pattern on your practice piece. You could do much better manually, if turning that feature off and programming a pseudo-manual tool path isn't better. Or is there no such mode?

[@tinygriffy]

if you cannot get rid of the tool marks on the fixture plate, maybe you can create a tool path that creates a more desirable pattern, maybe stepped circles that result in a flower petal pattern or something ?

[@dalebennett5227]

What type of indicator are you using

[@GenericAnimeBoy]

CNC or no, there's no getting around the fundamentals of inspection.

[@stuartschaffner9744]

Wow, you're learning fast! Go Adam!

[@colinfahidi9983]

Fast?

[@mdvener]

Not as good as your shaper. You'll get it. If anyone can figure it out, it's you.

[@davidschultz9980]

I wish you would have put your new big pieces on the Starrett surface top and indicated them. I’m not taking any jabs at you Abom, just curious to see what the indicator would show. Also, when you, someone who cares about this precision tolerance, finds something wrong… you will go to great lengths to solve the mystery. I’m sure you will figure it out. Thanks for the wonderful content. 👍

[@richarddonah5571]

Not a machinist, but beginning hobby. Would seem to me that since you have 2 pair of tallen jaws. The second set could be used as a handy set of parallels under a large project like your fixture plates. At least it wouldn't be pushed down as it's milled. Could maybe have even less clamping pressure, maybe reduce upward bend and eliminate downward deformation under load. Just a thought, maybe it isn't the best idea, due to the half thou or .001 difference. Maybe it would try to rock around more?

[@cschwad559]

You can only get that mirror finish with a surface grinder.

[@jaydwelley8043]

Hey Adam, personally I enjoy the manual machining, but this is O.K.too. Keep them coming.

[@DB-thats-me]

I’m not a machinist, is there a reason to climb mill the chamfers? I’m sure I’ve been told but memory not working. 🙃

[@stockstergates4061]

we can buy the indicator base？

[@ThomasLips]

Do a zero-degree lead in at a corner for outside features. You won't get the "bump"

[@metro_ss]

Just curious, why is the fluid used on some cuts and not others?

[@trajtemberg]

@@metro_ss Video footage reasons?

[@specforged5651]

Wouldn’t you want to inspect the jaws while they are actually in the machine? Maybe they are moving slightly when bolted up? Honest question, I’m still learning, but that’s what went through my mind. Although you would certainly want to make sure they are still good by themselves and eliminate that variable. I dunno, just thinking out loud with my lack of knowledge. Thanks!

[@lonniebrock3282]

Adam I know nothing about the c and c can you use a fly cutter on this machine

[@martineastburn3679]

And maybe the holes are the measure from point not the base. Seems Interesting.

[@etech1to1]

Seems like you could get a better finish by going back and fourth on the bottom side, than the half moon passes on the bottom side. I am not sure if the program is auto generating that tool path but seems like it could be more efficient. I think the tool path making squares like cutting a yard from the out side in seems to be giving you the bad finishes. But if you could just make a pass and then pass back cutting in the opposite direction. I am no expert I am a woodworker that follows your cool work. But I am thinking of it like I would do with a router and flatten a wooden slab going back and fourth.

[@demonknight7965]

Why do cnc's run in such weird patterns over the matteial. Wouldnt a straight line be more effecient?

[@CatNolara]

With a straight line you would have to either feed in alternating directions (conventional vs climb milling, don't think it's good to mix both) or cut around the perimeter, with tight corners. This other milling strategy called "adaptive clearing" tries to keep the material removal as consistent as possible, with rounding over edges and making like an s-curve around the point where it fed into the material on the previous round. With each round the line becomes more and more curvy, which is good since you eliminate cutting corners where you would have big changes in tool load otherwise. It also does really nicely with inside corners, straight lines would just plunge straigth into the corner, which gives you a huge load spike and will be visible in the finish, whereas adaptive cutting goes in with multiple rounded paths that get more and more narrow until it's all cleared out.

[@paulpipitone8357]

Does lance has a surface grinder or Keith ruker

[@ImolaS3]

With the CNC content, it would be much more interesting to see how you tweak/write the program rather than a cutter moving around

[@izzynutz2000]

Yeah them tool marks look like that thing went willy-nilly like it was just cutting wherever it felt like my no it's just the camera

[@larrylindsey1497]

Isn't there a button that can make the tool go back and forth? The pattern makes me dizzy.

[@andrewterry8092]

@@SteveColluns-hm2xx The lack of comments lately is a telling sign, this channel is losing interest with viewers. A year ago, a comment like this would've been flooded with complaints about "haters" or "go watch something else" and yet now, crickets.

[@richardjones-sl2zd]

@@andrewterry8092 When critical comments come in from guys who have been in the industry for decades and have run their own companies in this arena, the 'defend regardless' crowd struggle to counter.

[@garyvriezen4833]

The whole time you were inspecting the camera was out of focus. Could not see the graduations on the Starrett indicator.

[@user-di7us4ni2p]

Adam it’s pretty hard to bow that plate

[@Capt1331]

i would run a fly cutter

[@MegaRiffraff]

👍🏻

[@ЖелезнаяЖизнь]

Привет Адам, тебе пора приобрести плоскошлифовальный станок, это очень расширяет возможности.

[@ЖелезнаяЖизнь]

@@SteveColluns-hm2xx 👍

[@DavidRMalloy]

It would be nice if you could control the tool path better. The tool path on the first two tests almost looks random. It would look much better (IMHO) if the path first ran parallel to the key from the left side to the right side then adjacent to the key on the near and far ends just to the ends of the key. Continue milling off the edges before returning for the next pass. Overlap your passes %50 so that all cutting is done uniformly relative to the cutting head.

[@onryboy2264]

One would think that for the money that you are paying for them jaws they would be closer in spec's then they are. 😢

[@mikekellam365]

I don't understand why the machine is making arc passes.. It seems to me your actually making the cut path longer, extending cut length and thereby using up more cutter life.. The shortest path is a straight line.. It's also not contributing to your surface finish. Linear linear cut lines with minimal overlap always results in a smoother finish and is usually more aesthetically pleasing. It's also easier to polish or scrape, depending on the needs of the finished product.

[@mclam5623]

why don't you grind off the irregularities until there are none before you put them to use? if you don't, you will have to take into account that there are deviations with EVERY use

[@MoondyneJoe]

Just putting it out thier in lateral thinking Adam, could you put in a scotchbrite buffer and run a few passes over the machined surface and improve the finish? If you never try you never know. Tony from Western Australia 🇦🇺