Social Justice Fallacies (Thomas Sowell Book Review)

What is social justice and how does it compare and contrast with biblical justice? In this episode, Sean and Scott discuss the recent book by economist Thomas Sowell called Social Justice Fallacies. According to Sowell, many things thought to be true today about justice efforts do not line up with the facts. As a result, many social justice efforts have had catastrophic consequences. Join Sean and Scott for a provocative discussion.
READ: Social Justice Fallacies, by Thomas Sowell (amzn.to/4cimJkm)
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[@juniorjamreonvit9271]

Thank you for bringing attention to Sowell. More people need to know about him.

[@SeanMcDowell]

You’re welcome and I agree 💯

[@PhilosophyofDataScience]

Basically Thomas Sowell helps us to avoid the Leviticus 19:15 pitfall, and understand how the social justice movement shows partiality toward "the poor" (or classes seen as poor even if they are not).

[@adamduarte895]

Exactly! Also hello fellow data scientist

[@warsharkproductions6550]

Finally, Thomas sowell getting more recognition

[@annbrucepineda8093]

After their marriage, Candace Owens and her husband were guests at Liberty University. She was asked to name her favorite book and she said something like, anything by Thomas Sowell. I have since listened to his interviews and audio books. What a brilliant man!

[@michelle_c2345]

Be careful with Candace. I was always a huge fan of hers but I heard (not sure if it’s true) that’s she’s anti-Israel. Broke my heart. Some of these very good Christian’s and conservatives who are so awake to everything yet somehow are anti-Israel it makes no sense to me.

[@PhilosophyofDataScience]

Love Sowell. Appreciate anyone who is able to effectively ignore convenient narrative for good reasoning based on good data. He's helpful for believers to understand how compassion can actually be connected with better outcomes, rather than weaponized toward deleterious effects on the very targets of compassion.

[@user-gl6dz2dh2m]

I'm copying and pasting this mostly because I'm lazy. Was Thomas Sowell christian. Was he using the bible as the foundation for his beliefs. No. He wasn't a professing Christian, didn't even pretend to believe and he never did. Im not allowed to believe systemic racism is real cause apparently its all marxist or something. So if we're going by that standard youre in error and i should focus tons of effort on purging you and your beliefs from the church.

[@user-gl6dz2dh2m]

You're causing division, you're pushing extrabiblical beliefs on people, you're trying to convince people to believe things the bible foesmt require you to, youre leading people astray from the simplicity of Christ.

[@imnotanalien7839]

Great discussion. ❤Dr. Thomas Sowell🇺🇸

[@StumblingThroughItAll]

@Sean McDowell if you haven't read Sowell's "A Conflict of Visions" and "Vision of the Annointed", those address more of the worldview which lay at the foundations of political philosophy. I think you'd really enjoy a read through those books as well.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thanks, I haven’t read those!

[@StumblingThroughItAll]

@@SeanMcDowell Highly recommend them! "A Conflict of Visions" has been one of my go-to's when trying to understand much of the conflicts in political philosophies of our current moment. Super prescient IMHO.

[@slumbermoon]

Sowell is the epitome of academic insight & common sense

[@debbydoodler33]

Love that you're discussing Sowell! What an incredible gift he is. I've only seen interviews with him but hope to read his books in the future.

[@biblicalworldview1]

34:50 that is a part of critical theory called standpoint epistemology.

[@midimusicforever]

There is a big overlap between social justice and true justice, but it's not fully overlapping for sure!

[@karl3549]

I agree that there is an overlap, but I don’t think it’s as big as it tends to be advertised. I think an unfortunate (and dangerous) overlap in the Venn diagram is that cultural Marxism is taking an ever-increasing portion of the “social justice” circle.

[@John-fk2ky]

I don’t see how there’s any functional overlap, at least not anymore. Even the phrase “social justice” is tainted by its association with frankly idiotic initiatives and “reversed” forms of discrimination.

[@michellepeterson6320]

@@karl3549 need to be VERY careful with the overlap...it will creep

[@markeroberts5133]

Thanks! First time I can recall an overtly Christian podcast featuring Thomas Sowell! Much appreciation to you for doing this and an equal amount of hope this show will introduce him to many.

[@paulafields3711]

"How is the world broken? Why do people suffer? How do we fix it?"The knowledge of how to fix things is actually in God our Creator. The more we rebel against Him and His ways the further away from answers we get. Imo. I think Thomas Sowell's book would be an interesting read. Thanks for this discussion.

[@joanhuffman2166]

See also his book Discrimination and Disparities by Thomas Sowell.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great book!

[@joanhuffman2166]

@@SeanMcDowell great author

[@arhabersham]

Thanks so much for covering this, good sir ❤

[@intrepidus3378]

Paused at 31:28. "All of the knowledge necessary to fix certain inquities within society" This is the crux of it for me. Only God has the power to shape the environment to His will. The rest of us are constrained to curing the inequities within our own hearts. When we try to reach outside of ourselves and bend our environment to our own will we get it good and hard. This is pride and its inevitable outcome.

[@kevingp12]

Great episode to discuss sowell

[@Xiy114]

It's one of the reasons why some governments fear their citizenry.

[@MotekiEZ]

Didn't even know he had a new book!!

[@SeanMcDowell]

It’s great

[@johntobey1558]

I would also review Glen Laurie who is an Economist at Brown University who is also a conservatove and openly crotocal to the corrupt vision of the Black Lives Matter and the Ibraham Kendi non-semse and his corrupt project at Boston University.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Glen is sharp-I’ve seen some of his stuff.

[@TSis76]

Priveleges?? Or factors? Unless people were always rewarded for a certain demographic, they are factors. Factors may have been earned with lots of blood, sweat, tears, and struggles.

[@metapolitikgedanken612]

Yes, it is a bit misleading what they are doing there by pricking terms like privileges. It can also be a cultural credit people are getting there. Simply based on general experiences.

[@charlesbruneski9670]

​@metapolitikgedanken612 Which is why they can then claim preposterous things like: "Math is racist" "Being on time is white privilege" And, all other aspects and examples of disparity supposedly equaling oppression... with no evidence.

[@tyleradamson7242]

Love that you are reviewing Sowell! The man is so direct and well thought out, I think your hypothesis of other intellectuals avoiding him altogether even though he is so well recognized, is in fact a concerted effort to discredit him with silence, so they don’t have to engage any of his ideas. What a life story too, he’s fantastic.

[@highlander-jb6jv]

Sowell is a national treasure. Sean, Sowell has also written a whole book called "The Quest for Cosmic Justice." It seems to cover in more detail some of the ideas in this book.

[@michaeldetlofsen4071]

Read Leonard E Read’s “I Pencil” Dec 1958 he goes thru how a pencil is made in that book.

[@jensonlim9907]

Didn’t even realise Sowell is still alive!

[@johntobey1558]

Also read Woke Racism

[@flamesintheattic]

At the root of every ancient religion is the notion that only the individual can relieve suffering within themselves. It is not a group activity.

[@markmcflounder15]

Just a minor correction or update: the simple pencil story. Dr. Jay Richards must have gotten that from Dr. Milton Friedman whose lectures I can't recommend enough. Dr. Sowell was a staunch deep rooted Marxist & read all of Das Kapitel. He ended up taking one of Milton Friedman's classes. And, that did not change Sowell's mind. When Sowell took a government job his Marxist worldview shattered.

[@charlieshammer6129]

Mr. Sowell is truly brilliant, I got excited thinking he might be on your show. Great show anyway!

[@sporadicfaneurysm]

🤔 agree naman ako mostly sa mga sinabi, pero may mga points lang na may reservations ako, esp. sa bandang dulo.. para kasing may hulog pag dating sa ilang ideologies.. sa tingin ko gets ko naman somewhat kung anung pinanggagalingan nun, pero siguro meron pa ring mga bagay-bagay na di nila nakikita (?) at for sure meron ding di ko nakikita, kaya iwan na lang natin na ganyan sa ngayon.. 💁🏻

[@jamiemcvay130]

I love Thomas Sowell! If I was given the super-power of appointing the US president, I would appoint Sowell.

[@iceman4660]

Sowell a living legend. A sidenote. He was a Marxist when he was much younger.

[@lukeemily6644]

I would love to hear your thoughts on Sowell's "The Vision of the Anointed." Are David French and Russell Moore members of the evangelical anointed?

[@kevingp12]

🎉

[@erikjohnson2594]

This episode hasn't started yet. if you are able to actually interview the Great and Elusive Thomas Sowell, I will be very impressed.

[@johnnybravo3869]

Question: Is it a Talbot thing to wear t-shirts with blazers?

[@SeanMcDowell]

Yep! 👊

[@markeroberts5133]

@@SeanMcDowell coming to a Paris runway soon!

[@metapolitikgedanken612]

Sorry, but how does he at 5:40 ff know that genetic disparities aren't the cause for other disparities? Also, how does he know that "Nobody does accept that any longer"... There for sure are those that do and they also have demonstrated their theory sufficiently. Obviously there are group differences that play a role.

[@biblicalworldview1]

You have done your audience such a service by promoting Thomas Sowell. A lot of these ideas have come out in other works of his, like Discrimination and Disparities, but he thinks so clearly on these issues and completely debunks the shallow Ibram X Kendi narrative, where either there's something wrong with black people or it's racism, without allowing a third way of culture and many other factors. This ideology goes all the way back to Jean Jacques Rousseau and has a thread going through Karl Marx and the Frankfurt School that moved to Columbia University from Germany. Rousseau had a basic philosophy that man was born good, but society and property corrupted him. It is a complete Utopian ideal on which the French revolution was partially based. Utopianism is based on the idea that man is basically good, which is why it always leads in atrocities and disaster.

[@lukemiao4454]

Jarvis Williams and Anthony Bradley love him too, so he's not just an "anti woke" grifter that should be summarily dismissed, he and his ideas should be taken seriously even if you don't agree with all of them.

[@Gweidemann]

"God is the source of all justice. He alone is its source." • Jeanne J. Rousseau.

[@Apriluser]

Does justice need an adjective?

[@yidiandianpang]

No

[@busyb8676]

He apparently did not touch on the fact that women have not been treated as equals in most societies. Where they are the emotional success of the family produces more productive happier children and a healthier society.

[@jelly7310]

Thomas Sowell was born and raised in America. Harlem if I'm not mistaken. He's NOT an African American. Just American.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

You said a mouthful when you quoted Sowell asking whether social justice advocates' priorities are the poor themselves or their own vision of the world. I think that's a legitimate question that all social justice warriors need to ask themselves. But I think it's equally legitimate to ask Christians, “Do you really want justice for all people - even the ones whose lifestyles you don't agree with - or are you just promoting your vision of the world?” What I so often see is that Christians, especially evangelicals, are not as interested in making life better for marginalized people as in advancing what they see as correct doctrine.

[@John-fk2ky]

I’m sorry, but you are going to need some actual examples and clarification, because what you have here is, frankly, illogical. Aspects of Christian doctrine: 1. Do not steal. Benefits should be self-explanatory. 2. Do not lie. Benefits are self-explanatory. 3. Respect parents. Benefits should be obvious but are lost on most people. 4. Adultery is wrong. How this is not obvious to all is beyond me. 5. Premarital sex is wrong. Check out the statistics. Many problems would be fixed in society if this were followed. 6. Homosexuality is wrong. Actually look up the statistics for this one rather than foolishly follow your emotions. Gay men, despite making up 2% of the population, make up half of all new HIV patients. Lesbians have an inordinately high domestic abuse rate. Both groups have high divorce rates within a few years if they marry at all, and of those that do stay married, only a fraction remain monogamous. 7. Transgenderism is wrong. Just look at the suicide rate. Nearly 50% of both pre-op and post-op transgender self-identifiers commit suicide regardless of where they live and level of affirmation received. The idea that this is something healthy is ludicrous. 8. Polyamory is wrong. Relationships between two people are hard enough. Adding more people to it just increases risks of jealousy and other negative emotions. If followed widely, Christian doctrine would solve or mitigate quite a few problems. What do you expect people to do that isn’t already being done? You can argue for expanding those efforts, but what do you think is being neglected that doesn’t require a Christian to compromise his or her beliefs?

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

@@hydepark1382 I get what you're saying - if people understood the proper doctrine and practiced that doctrine in their lives, then they'd be doing all the things that would lead to social justice. But when the focus is on doctrine instead of people, it certainly looks like Christians are not so much interested in helping people as much as advancing their beliefs. An example of this is Andy Stanley's "Unconditional Conference" 5 or 6 months ago which attempted to guide ministers in helping families of LGTBQ+ people. There was a tremendous outcry that the conference legitimized or affirmed LGBTQ+ lifestyles. There was almost no commentary that the conference addressed a pressing need.

[@TheJohnnywbred]

Black football players don’t want to be punters is one example.

[@donald6277]

Sowell is great. But the question of what Biblical justice is was not discussed.

[@catherinemelnyk]

It's still a mystery to me why black people in America identify as "African" Americans, as if you couldn't tell their historical identity. But, I'm a Polish-Ukraianian Canadian but I don't advertise my heritage, even though I'M VERY PROUD of it. Totally bizarre. That aside, I do have several of Thomas Sowell's books which are excellent.

[@andrewjohnson8232]

Because American communities and personalities are built on their collective sense of pride and place rooted in a sense of social and individual ethnic history - a sense African Americans have been systematically and brutallt denied. They are the only group forced to Americas against will, whose massive, fundamental, contributions have been denied, and which was forbidden by law and mob rule, not only from being American, but also from being human. Unlike you, they have had any sense of identificatiom with a nation, society or ethnicity, systematically eradicated and denied. The fact that you feel you have the right to grant and withold your respect at will, and ask a question of something which shoild be so searingly obvious to you, should in fact be the answer to your own question.

[@catherinemelnyk]

@@andrewjohnson8232 There's a clip with Morgan Freeman in an interview on this topic.

[@andrewjohnson8232]

@@catherinemelnyk There are 47 million people of African descent in the US, with millions more throughout the American continent. They didn't arrive in America as African, they were branded, very literally, in America as African. Might you consider listening to their history as well as dismissing it by choosing to listen only to people who will endorse your dismissal?

[@markmcflounder15]

I see why the Left so dismisses & ignores Sowell. Discrimination & Disparities starts off with the enormous advantage of the 1st-born & a group of the top 1% of IQs. He goes on to say if we can't get equality of outcomes in the same family how could expect to do the same in a country??? The outcomes of the people with the top 1% of IQs had huge array of differences. Some were huge successes & the converse was also true. He mentions that the income/wealth of Eastern & Western Europe is much greater than any group in the US. He goes on to show the influence of rivers between Eastern & Western Europe. One of the parts I find the most intriguing is the history of Scotland. My ancestry is Scottish on both sides of my family. England had been conquered by the Romans & that put England ahead. Thus, England oppressed Scotland & Ireland. Scotland was a backwaters place & something like no Scottish noble could write his name in the 1500s. Then in the 1700s there was a sudden flourishing & advancement. David Hume wrote in this era.

[@babyfacedkayos]

Diversity in medicine is wildly important. I only go to black doctors when available because they have insights that white doctors likely won't. Black dermatologist. Black primary care. Tuh.

[@jonathancampbell586]

Bless You, Dr. Sowell Diversity Should NOT be Our guiding Priciple and Yes, We are Not " Bricks! "

[@cooper60]

The mental gymnastics of these Christians....smh

[@SquirrelOnIce]

There is one clear genetic difference between the races...and that's the average height and physique of Oriental Asians (a group of which I am a part of) and the Blacks 😂 It is what it is. To endeavour to eliminate this difference is a fool's errand.

[@TonyThomas10000]

These sound like straw man arguments. Social justice is not making everyone completely equal. The definition from Chat GPT: "Social justice refers to the concept of fair and equitable treatment of all individuals within a society, regardless of their background, identity, or socio-economic status. It encompasses the idea that every person should have equal access to resources, opportunities, and rights, and that systemic barriers and inequalities should be addressed and eliminated." What is not mentioned is that African Americans were enslaved for hundreds of years and not allowed to marry and have families. That may explain why only 30% of blacks are married. In addition, wealth creation has been decimated in the black community by redlining and economic disparity. Finally, blacks are not a monolithic group and some are middle and even upper class based upon what their ancestors were able to achieve.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Absolute justice? That is God's domain. But the scriptures describe the divine acts to ameliorate human brokenness, to teach a better way, whether it be the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount, etc. What we call 'social justice' is an attempt to actually apply those principles to the affairs of men. Because radical individualism is a falsehood. We always exist in the company of other people.

[@markeroberts5133]

What do you find in Sowell's writings advocating radical individualism?

[@stephenbailey9969]

@@markeroberts5133 Discussing the concept of 'social justice', not specifically Sowell. However, Sowell's ideas and conclusions for the last three decades have been used by the libertarian and conservative individualists to rationalize their prescriptions, even if Sowell himself has a differing philosophy.

[@christiandad5920]

While i agree that there is no 'superior' race, to just throw away genetic influences is both disingenuous and cowardly. I might be wrong here but half the review argues about NO genetic determinism and instead argues about environmental influences but then argues AGAINST the chess piece theory being applicable. My question is if there are NO genetic disparities in outcomes why cant we just change the environmental or cultural influenecs of an individual and get equality in outcomes? Im not arguing for genetic determinsm per se, but to ignore it is like i said before disingenuous and cowardly. This with the perspective that we are ALL equal of worth in the eyes of God, made in His image.

[@cooper60]

What do you mean cowardly are you implying genetic inferiority...Are you suggesting that Neanderthals were a higher intelligence people when your ancestors were inter-breeding in Europe? Remember everyone started off brown first.....

[@Diq_Cheese]

He's american, a large percentage of black Americans are not from Africa.

[@andrewjohnson8232]

The story of Africans in America is one of the most brutal in world history, yet that history, according to Sowell and his groupies - the largely unaffected beneficiaries of that brutality - that history is merely a side issue to the creation of the haves and the have nots in America today. A people violently forced to a place entirely against their will, violently denied wage, violently denied a choice of labour, violently denied family structure, violently denied personal development, violently denied personal security, violently denied personal autonomy, violently denied education, violently denied the right to secure a private economy, violently denied national history, violently denied personal dignity, their humanity questioned, examined, denied, parodied ridiculed, and denounced in education, media, commerce, by law, government and social habit for four centuties, a lifetime short of half a millenium, are somehow meant to have erased any legacy of that with the concessions to full citizenship rights that they have hard fought for and hardly won in the last 30-odd years? Without African Americans, America's presence on the world stage would be very much thinner. That is a MASSIVE overachievement. Had they ever been paid what they have earned at anytime in history, there would be no reason for Sowell to invent their underachievenent with an update of the same denunciations of their himanity which has always served Americans so well.

[@jimmock1155]

I find your worldview interesting. You look across centuries and want to award those alive today? I wish it worked that way. I was born a mixed breed “Heinz 57”. No distinct heritage. No inheritance. Poor. I had to look around and make myself valuable to the world I was born into. That’s how my world seems to work.

[@andrewjohnson8232]

@@jimmock1155 You're clearly a great example, from what you say, but the situation you overcame was and is real, not imagined. Of course people can overcome their individual situations, even in the worst conditions, but that doesn't address how any collective came to be in a bad situation. Simply because something is not an absolute, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Not sure what you mean by "award those today". America's wealth is not a perpetually spontaneous generation, it is the product of the past, to which the commodification of the American land was and is absolutely key: the econmic foundation of America to which its African population is the absolute key, not simply in terms of labour and manpower, but in knowledge, skill, technique and innovation. You cannot separate centuries of brutally enfoced disparities, and outright fraud and homocidal robbery, from the disparities that exist today, unless you are acidically baleful or stupefyingly moronic. And how baleful and moronic would one have to be to look at America's half millenuim of history, and conclude that today's disparities exist because there are people who do not spend enough time in the library?

[@markeroberts5133]

Use Sowell's own criteria: "compared to what?" Slavery and all its compulsions have afflicted humanity forever. While magnifying the Western or more specifically American participation in slavery, be sure to compare it with the Arab-Muslim slave trade . . . which killed and maimed multiples more than the Western trade (which Christianity ended, in the UK first & then in the USA). Arab-Muslim slavery continues to this day: see Ronald Segal, "Islam's Black Slaves" (NY: Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2001). "in some cases, the estimate is that for every slave sold at auction, 10 died on the way. And slavery continues today in the Sudan and Mauritania. The strength of this account is the meticulous documentation. . . ."

[@andrewjohnson8232]

@@markeroberts5133 Not only will I say you are right on that account, but I also believe that the rise of Islam was Africa's destruction. Where once stood the great African kingdoms of Kush, Numidia, Titchit, Cathage, Egypt, Axum, Zimbabwe, Punt, Kongo, now stand either Arab Islamic Republics, or the ravages of kingdons wasted by their rise and ideology, still pushing south. The last place to fall was northern Sudan. Europeans did not create the slave trade in Africa, they bought into it. None of that however, has anything to do with Sowell's ludicrous position, that the disparities viciously and relentlessly enforced, both at executive and social levels, for the vast majority of America's history, have nothing to do with those disparities as they have existed over the last three or so decades. How can anyone even begin ro take that seriously without appealing to an almost comically wilful malevolence? Not only did Europeans buy into the trade, but also into the colour caste system created by the afore mentioned invasions and as well into the related perverse obsession with complexion which - contrary to popular rhetoric - is not native to Europe where complexion was not an issue in the way it has historically been throughout Asia. If the Oriental slave trade is not spoken of as it deserves to be, it is because the West does not place any significance on Africa and has a long and multi-layered cademic tradition of glorifying the Orient - I imagine you may have even baulked a little at Egypt, Carthage and so on, being mentioned as African history - the habit of erasure sticks fast. In the sense that Sowell argues that African American approaches and habituations to their situation can either be useless or counter-productive, he is right. In the sense that wishes to present that as an explanation for their situation and absolve American government and society of any responsibility, is completely blindsided; a failure of thought. Sowell relies heavily on heavily abridged historical narraitives and cosequently entirely bogus historical comparisons. Malcolm X told of a friend of his, a complexion as rich as newly pressed molasses, who enjoyed entrring segregated places wearing a turban. One evening while dining in a southern restaurant he asked the waitress what would hapoen if a 'gro wanted to dine there. To which she replied: "Don't worry sir, no ger would ever dare try to come in here". It's much easier to spend time in a library, when your literacy is welcome.