Sodium Citrate & Sodium Hexametaphosphate - Craft Cheese. WTF - Ep. 214

[@mike9119]

I made the cheese sauce on the stove a couple times, took to long. A light bulb went off, I turned and remembered I have a VitaMix, You can make Soups in it and it gets hot. So I cut up the cheese(s) I like to experiment. I only use water, I put the water in and teh Sodium Citrate mix it up for a few seconds, turn off the Vitamix, I add the cut up cheese or cheese's, set the dial to the soup setting that turns off in 8mins. or just set it up to high time it. Pour it out when its done. I like the fact I can set it and forget it while the Vitamix is doing its thing. I've added taco seasoning to it or sariachi sauce or Cayenne Pepper, dried Djon mustard powder to it. sky is the limit. I like to mix asiago cheese in with another cheese, like smoked goude or cheddar.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Great tip!

[@christianmall]

Yummy! Homemade nacho cheese sauces are so delicious 😋

[@gab.lab.martins]

Interesting. I’ve never had a problem with slicing or portioning with just citrate. What makes it sticky and soft is usually the milk/cream. I simply replace some or all liquid dairy with water, and it gets really firm and sliceable. I also like to blend it on high for a minute or two, it completely changes the texture and fully emulsifies the mixture.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

That's a cool technique as well!

[@joeb4142]

Really love your videos guys. My friends are a bit shocked when they see all of the alchemist ingredients I’ve bought from Modernist Pantry but hey, the results speak for themselves. Thank you for all you do for the vegan community!

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Thank you so much!

[@a11aaa11a]

I just used SHMP for the first time (been using sodium cirate for a decade or so) and it seems like there's more going on here. Specifically, I was making a cheese sauce for mac and cheese, so I did my standard ~1 to 1 ratio, by mass, of cheese to liquid (in this case, it was 50% beer, 50% canned whole tomato liquid), with 4% sodium citrate. Worked like a charm as it always does (side note: the best tool for this job is definitely a thermomix -- no shredding necessary), and I was glad the tomato worked so well both chemically and taste-wise. I had leftover sauce, as I planned, so I went to make it into cheese slices. I added 0.25% SHMP and it was still very liquid even after refrigeration. Now, I know, it's a much higher ratio of liquid to cheese than suggested for slices, but the thing that surprised me the most was that I think it stayed *more* liquid than without SHMP. Is it possible that SHMP just makes it more liquid or solid, whichever it would be without? Or is this just that I didn't weigh the tomato juice exactly and added more than I thought. Anyway, thanks for the video! Also, now I need to get sodium caseinate...onto that video 😛

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Here's a little bit more info on this: blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/the-meltiest-cheese/ But the main thing is that since you already made your cheese sauce you can't later add SHMP to make it into cheese slices. It does have to all be done at once.

[@a11aaa11a]

@@Modernist_Pantry very interesting!! I didn't realize that. What's the chemical reason behind that? Can the calcium replacement not happen later, or has that already been saturated by the SC?

[@Soulflayerr]

I have been making my own craft singles cheese blocks for a couple years now. I mix in my dog’s medication so the cheese becomes part of his regimen. I simply weigh it out and wrap the rest of his pills in that medicated cheese slice.

[@ChrisHillASMR]

Or u can remove garbage from you and ur dogs diet.

[@Xerkies]

​@@ChrisHillASMR 😂😂😂 ur hilarious

[@gparrish1978]

Thank you for putting these videos together. I have learned so much.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

You're so welcome!

[@roboslug7582]

Has Modernist Pantry ever looked into selling Cheese Buds as a retail product? They're made by the same company that makes Butter Buds, but they're only sold as a commercial product. They basically have a whole lineup of natural, enzyme-processed cheese (and other flavor) concentrates that would be a great addition in processed cheese slices and sauces like you're making here. Tons of other potentially awesome uses as well. I'd love to try Cheese Buds, if I could find an outlet that repackages and sells it in retail-size quantities.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Certainly sounds interesting!

[@addammadd]

I keep going back and forth through these videos and let me just say how refreshing it is to watch Janie vs the other dude as co-host.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Glad you're enjoying the newer episodes! We still got love for Marc though, good vibes!

[@Xerkies]

Excellent explanation! How much milk or liquid do i need to pour? For the amount of cheese

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Here is the full recipe: blog.modernistpantry.com/recipes/american-style-brie-gouda-cheese-slices/

[@LatoriaMartin]

Thank you for this

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Any time!

[@karao7831]

Hi! Great video. How can I use these ingredients to make it like a creamy spreadable laughing cow cheese ?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

A lot R&D. It looks like that recipe has fair amount of polyphosphates.

[@Khan-gx8ns]

Hey there, I am unable to find SHMP food grade in my country all I am getting in technical grade. Could I use that ? Or STPP insted? Need help regarding that

[@Modernist_Pantry]

We do not recommend using anything less than food grade for cooking. You can try STPP if it's food grade, we haven't used it in cheese sauces.

[@rickl2834]

I have a suggestion on a particular episode... I was wondering about candy, particularly candy bars. I was wondering do you have something that can show us how to make things like nougat for example?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

not yet but interesting idea :)

[@rtrogers01]

Can butter be used when making something like a mac and cheese? Also, do you give cheat sheets with your products, because it all seems so scientific and intimidating. It would be easier if there were conversions in cups, teaspoons, etc. instead of percentages.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Here is our conversion sheet: blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/modernist-ingredients-volume-to-weight-conversion-reference-sheet/

[@haines96]

I find the range of recipies confusing. One Modernist recipie for queso says 11g/550g total (cheese + liquid) mass which equals 2%*total, but the linked recipie uses 1.1%*total. The chef in the videos says to use 3%*cheese, which is also different. I suspect the 1%*total or about 2%*cheese is about right, but would appreciate some clarity, because the texture/thickness is very important. Is this aimig for flowing at room temperature? And how runny or thick should be expected? Thx.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

More sodium citrate will make for a better emulsion, not how fluid the cheese will be. That comes from the amount of water/milk in the recipe. Sodium Hex can make cheese set a bit more firm but that wouldn't matter if there is more liquid in the recipe.

[@haines96]

@@Modernist_Pantry Thanks for the follow up. When I did the other recipie with 93% liquid relative to cheese it was quite runny. I think there was some guidance to use 35 to 85% for queso, and the linked recipie uses 100%, so it seems to be very broad and will require experimentaion and logging, I guess. But I will follow your guidance to treat the sodium citrate as mostly unrelated to viscosity.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

More sodium citrate will make for a better emulsion, not how fluid the cheese will be. That comes from the amount of water/milk in the recipe. Sodium Hex can make cheese set a bit more firm but that wouldn't matter if there is more liquid in the recipe. Start at 1.1% and adjust upwards if you feel your emulsion needs more stability.

[@safffff1000]

thanks, I wanted to see how safe SHMP is and watching this I might try it for some else I just read. A science paper on, Hexametaphosphate as a potential therapy for the dissolution and prevention of of calcium oxalate kidney stones.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

That's outside of our area of expertise, so we can't assist with it.

[@safffff1000]

@@Modernist_Pantry Didn't expect that, just passing info, some could further research and may be beneficial

[@UnnecessaryBelond]

would love to learn about how to make smooth textured pudding like the jello products that use phosphates and mono and dyglecorides.

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Thanks for the suggestion

[@lisareaume3857]

USE EGG YOLKS to make a very smooth pudding.

[@SarahPoulin]

I have sodium citrate, but I don't have sodium hexametaphosphate. I do, however, happen to have sodium alginate. I notice that sodium alginate is on some processed cheese ingredients list. Would sodium alginate help to replace the sodium hexametaphosphate and make a more firm, slice-able cheese?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Sodium alginate is a gelling agent and is most likely used in commercial food processing to provide some texture in processed cheeses. You can add it in order to alter the texture but it is not a replacement for sodium hexametaphosphate.

[@SarahPoulin]

@@Modernist_Pantry so basically, it would make it more "gelly" but not necessarily firmer? Wouldn't it also help with emulsification at least? We noticed this morning that our cheese sauce looked like Cheez Whiz in the fridge, but when heated, it separated and wouldn't mix back together (no alginate, just citrate). I had used a different recipe (I only saw this video after), with 1 lb shredded block cheddar cheese, and 1 tsp sodium citrate. But I did throw a bit of jalapeno cream cheese in there too.

[@invoker666]

Can sodium citrate be used with yogurt to prevent it from seizing while heating? (e.g. while making low-fat creamed spinach)

[@Modernist_Pantry]

We haven't tried it

[@terry8283]

Everytime I do this, the sodium citrate adds a sourness to the final product that is unpleasant. How can you compensate for this?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Sounds like it may be too much. How much are you adding? Email in to [e-mail]

[@lavellnutrition]

Is Sodium Citrate safe for your digestive system? Is it gluten free? SHMP also?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

yes and yes

[@marlonwilkinson4627]

Can you melt provolone cheese with sodium Citrate

[@Modernist_Pantry]

sure can!

[@veganfoodplug8702]

Why would this not work with vegan cheese blocks? (non-carrageenan and non-agar)

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Vegan cheese does not have the same chemical structure as dairy cheese. If you make a nut cheese you can't melt it down. You can make a vegan cheese sauce with our recipe here: blog.modernistpantry.com/recipes/easy-vegan-nacho-cheese/

[@Slayunicorn]

Do you guys ship to saudi arabia?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

We do: modernistpantry.com/pages/international-shipping.html

[@polycrystallinecandy]

"stay away from some of the more acidic liquids" Me: damn, I really wanted a conc H2SO4 cheese sauce 😭

[@Modernist_Pantry]

How about some good old HCL?😉

[@mag217]

​@@Modernist_Pantryso therefore can you use a highly acidic liquid and add a PH buffer to neutralize it? Will that affect the flavor on the tongue? Will that fuq the final result?

[@opaulozed]

What’s the ratio of the milk??

[@Modernist_Pantry]

Here is the recipe: blog.modernistpantry.com/recipes/american-style-brie-gouda-cheese-slices/

[@brandonchavannes689]

can you use this to stabilize butter sauces for cooling and retherming?

[@Modernist_Pantry]

I would try Polysorbate 80 for that. www.modernistpantry.com/polysorbate-80.html

[@Disillusioned2022]

Janie is so gorgeous holy wow !