Solving Long Stable AES50 Runs

[@DanielEdwards-]

As I mentioned in the comments section on your previous video relating to your new Cat 6A cable, Dave was very helpful pointing me in the right direction to get some Sound Tools Cat 6A in the UK. And so far, so good. The 100m length has performed as promised. Typically I’ve ran 50 meter Cat 5e cables, and pops and silence have occurred when in venues where poor quality cable protectors have been used, or refrigerators for the bar have later been installed near my cable runs. Silly things, not show stoppers but in my view embarrassing and unprofessional. Misinformation from ill informed ‘professionals’ parroting the erroneous information that has been circulating - particularly on Facebook groups can now hopefully be dispelled. Until Behringer/Midas improve their AES50 implementation in existing or new consoles the Sound Tools Cat 6A may be the only thing to save a great show from becoming a potential disaster. As the summer festival season continues, I hope to review my success with this great new spec’d cable in the future.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and thank you Daniel!

[@johnmcquay82]

@@DaveRat I'm UK based also, and will be seeking to purchase one of these reels too. I've had problems with pops, drops and farts over a relatively short distance (50M) with the cable I have, and more recently I worked a venue where there was clearly a high degree of electrical noise. When connecting the DL32 to my board, the presence of the stage box was acknowledged, but it would not sync. When it did, as soon as I tried to play audio, it cracked, and dropped out.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool, if you buy the cable, please let me know how it works and if ya like!

[@DanielEdwards-]

@DaveRat Here I am half way through summer and your Sound Tools SuperCat 6A cable at 110 meters has performed flawlessly! I haven’t had a single drop out the last few months. I highly recommend this cable and the specification, and I am incredibly thankful for the time and effort you’ve put into creating such a useful tool that actually does what it sets out to do! To anyone who has experienced difficulties with Behringer/Midas products using AES50 - this Cat6A cable is the real deal! Even out in the wild!

[@DaveRat]

@DanielEdwards- that is so cool and thank you Daniel!!

[@artysanmobile]

I’d run out of courage at 110m which is a pretty good distance. 350’ will get it done in many venues and particularly if you can fly it. My analog snakes have always been 120m and it is a rare scenario that they come up short, typically leaving a big pile in the trunk. This is excellent work you’ve done, Dave. The manufacturers SHOULD be giving us this kind of knowledge. A network drop is the worst thing in the world. Like, sneak out the back door, move to a new town and start all over bad. You can take great pride in this.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and thank you so much!

[@JonathanDixon3]

I lost it at the balloon farm full of sheep. 🤣

[@DaveRat]

Legit, could be a big issue for ESD!🎈🎈🎈🎈🐑🎈🐑🎈🐑🎈🐑🎈🐑🎈🎈🎈🎈

[@nutronik9]

Ive had this issue over the years, just not as prominent as in your video, I made it better by having battery backups on both ends, but that still isn't perfect. Im also glad to have some confirmation that its not just the word clock like I keep getting told. Great video and great subject to cover.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and yes, I was able to prove it was not the word clock or even the sync signal in other tests by creating a break out and extending just the clock signal pairs and no issues. but extending the signal pairs caused issues.

[@johnschalk1271]

@@DaveRat Hi Dave, I noticed in this video that you're using more channels and outputs over the AES50 connection than in previous videos. Are dropouts at longer runs possibly related to the "load" on the AES50 connection? Just wondering since you didn't need to bring out the sparker for this video. Edit to Add: I just bought a 50' piece of purple SuperCAT to use with some "CAT tails" for my cross stage drive snake.

[@DaveRat]

I used more inputs and outputs to make sure that it wasn't a factor. I'm not really seeing a difference of whether I use very few or fully loaded snake, The dropout seem to be related to cable not the quantity of channels. Have you watched the other video where I go into more depth? kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=46Ma4RwH4BCSfF0e

[@djjazzyjeff1232]

I had some serious issues with this a few years back. I since changed the cable and that helps a lot, haven't had any issues except the odd one, very occasionally. But anyway, this video is a problem that I've found myself chasing my tail before, thank you so much !

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍🤙

[@tonyseifert3370]

I agree with the workaround Dave. Thanks for the response.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Tony!!

[@16LiveRecords]

Cool cool I think that in one piece, it should do 150meters. Congrats in this development!🎉

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍👍

[@GerardCirera]

Not directly related to the topic in this video, but here is a technical idea that I had: I think higher voltage amplifiers and speakers should become a thing, this would reduce the power loss between the amps and passive speaker arrays, which is most of the speakers on the market. This allows for thinner wires going to the speakers, or higher power at the same current as before, or both. A higher voltage speaker just needs to be higher impedance which is easy to do, just add more turns, the main difficulty would be on the amplifier side which would need to output higher voltage signals. In the EV industry everything is increasing in voltage because of the reduction in cable size and higher power transmission at equal or lesser currents, and with new SiC and GaN switching converters this is becoming possible. It could be a path forward in the entertainment industry as well. The LA16x amplifier can drive 16 ohm speakers but at reduced power output, which I assume is because of voltage limitations. Outputting higher voltage it would theoretically be able to do higher power, but maybe 120/240 VAC is the limitation. Step-up voltage converters or a 480VAC supply might be necessary if higher voltage amplifiers are to become a thing in the future. Thoughts?

[@TylerMarletteNY]

thanks Dave! I went with the purple sound tools cable at 45M and been having great results, and I feel like I don’t have to worry as much about people stepping or pulling on it

[@DaveRat]

Yes, the purple is perfect for 44m and super durable!!

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

Nice video! Again and again... Always top quality, Dave! Thanks! 🙂

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍👍

[@NicholasRadina]

Wonderful! Thank you, Dave!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Nicholas!

[@antztudio]

As always, Thanks Dave. Awesome.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and thank you!

[@MichaelNatrin]

Great video! Thanks for your analysis and logic and providing a new solution.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Michael!!

[@compoundstudio]

Thanks again Dave, invaluable info.

[@DaveRat]

Wonderful and thank you!

[@sweettreeproductions2149]

Great stuff! Thank you sir.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@stephencambron7943]

I love your understated satire Sir…….😂

[@DaveRat]

Fun and thank you!!

[@diagosofrano]

this is a lifesaver

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Nahum17good]

I was toying with purchasing the DN9620 just to avoid this issue. But at $2300 plus the cost of a fiber snake, it’s a bit pricey. Although there is the benefit of extending the length up 500m! I just purchased your 100m snake on a reel and can’t wait to try it out. I currently have 3 M32’s in my inventory that are all used for live venues, so if this is all that, I’ll buy more! I do own a Presonus 32 III that sits in the warehouse because of the same issue and in fact is a lot worse. I’m curious to see if your snake will cure it as well.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and keep me updated! Just got done doing tests on Dante and Milan and was able to run up to 150 m on both and building out our spec for that cable looks like 120 m recommended max from sound tools gives it 20% cable length buffer The reports back from the field from everyone that's bought it havw been awesome

[@hexapodium]

Just a note on dropouts from inferior cables, specifically with the X32 - these seem to also be induced by using cables which have a shield connected only at one end, and/or which is not bonded at both ends to the connector shell and the drain wire. This is part of the EtherCON spec nowadays but *isn't* part of the basic Ethernet spec, and some cables are not constructed with shields connected at both ends[1], or with the shield and the drain (ground) wire not bonded together at all. This apparently caused dropouts where a big static potential could build up between the shield and the signal lines, due to something about how the X32's AES50 decoder is designed and integrated. It turns out having a 100 metre long capacitor attached to your system is sometimes bad for electrical anomalies. These days most EtherCON is compliant (and most Ethernet cable as well), but this is something to watch out for if you're getting drops at shorter distances. A quick check that the EtherCON shell is connected to the Ethernet connector shell, and that both ends are connected to each other, might reveal your issue. [1] this is also the subject of lots of debate for analog interconnects; I've seen guitar leads with the shield connected only at one end, for instance, nominally to prevent there being multiple paths to ground. I don't think it has any real-terms effect though.

[@DaveRat]

Connecting the ground to just one end of a cable is just a bummer. It now makes the cable directional and it rarely have ever does anything positive. If you need to lift the ground on one side then add a ground lift adapter and maintain control over it and the ability to eliminate it. You may be interested in this video I did where I go much deeper into the adventure of AES 50 and use a cable certifier as well as other adventures kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=bPEQLLVh0ERsgviB

[@Brody-Dolyniuk]

Dave, I came here to say the same thing. Does your cable have continuity from shell to shell?

[@DaveRat]

Of course, not having continuity shell to shell serves no practical purpose that I am aware of other than solving a ground loop that should be solved properly and not solved by lifting one shell of the cable.

[@Brody-Dolyniuk]

@@DaveRat great. Looks like you’re out of the 100m cables. I guess I could get two 60M and a coupler (though hopefully most situations a 60M will suffice). When will the 100m be in stock again?

[@DaveRat]

Yes, The 2 60s will work. But we will have More of the 100 m lengths next week or the week after they're already manufactured and on their way.

[@audioquest1]

Dave your Cable is definitely a MUST AND a WINNER. I'm definitely indefesting in that. It's worth for the Business we Inn. Question is that only in red or also in black

[@audioquest1]

We are talking about the Cat 6A correct?

[@DaveRat]

Yes it's a Cat6a cable and we only make it in red currently.

[@dataplatter]

One other factor that you might want to measure is Change in Insertion Loss due to Cable Temperature. Some manufactures derate max distance as much as 5% for 120F vs 68F

[@DaveRat]

Yes, DC resistance will rise with temperature. Maybe check out this vid for a more in depth test adventure. Temp differentials and degradation over time are a few reasons you want a cable to be stable well beyond the lengths used. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=jZUCL5w71w4gkOAo

[@artysanmobile]

I hear that. It’s a large bite up front, smooth sailing later.

[@DaveRat]

🔧👍🔧

[@tonyseifert3370]

Hey Dave, have you done any testing of HyperMAC related to cable length. For some shows I have been using a pair of KT 9680s on Cat5e even though I only need one AES50 run (@48K & 100m) and I have not experienced any drops. Yeah, I know, its complete overkill...

[@DaveRat]

I have not. My goal here was to solve the issue where the most popular in the world Midas/Behringer consoles/stage boxes can be connected together without issues. Many people were having issues with longer cable lengths so I set out to solve it. Adding dongles or conversions or other gear other than just plugging a cable directly in the back of the products is not a solution, but rather, a workaround.

[@gregorykusiak5424]

Happy Father’s Day! This will sell like hotcakes to people who need less than 140m, like in smaller venues. I certainly hope they come premade in 20, 30, 50, 75m lengths as well as the 100m. And for installs, being sold by the 300, 500 and 1000m reel would be handy. Can I assume this will pair ideally with the analog stage boxes as well?

[@DaveRat]

Yes this will work well with the analog over cat. We're only going to release 100 m, 60 m, and 10 m. It's optimized for applications where durable flexible high speed cable is needed. For permanent installs where you can use solid conductor wire and the demand for higher fireproof ratings is common, there are some install cables that are stiff and hard to wind but will work just fine for long runs of AES 50. The trick of this adventure is to get something that's flexible and durable that also is high speed and that's what took so much work to develop this And thank you for the happy Father's Day wish! And yes we sold out of our first run already and we have another batch coming in a couple weeks.

[@gregorykusiak5424]

@@DaveRat got an ETA for when it will be back in stock?

[@DaveRat]

@gregorykusiak5424 1 to 2 weeks. It is en route to us now

[@Michachal98]

Great video! Would it be possible to test CAT cables on Ultralink and see what the maximum length would be? Since it also carries audio over TP cable, but it's different than AES50. I was also wondering about the new StageCONNECT on Wing console as well as Midas ultralink and stageconnect bus interfaces. It uses XLR/DMX 3 pin cable to carry 16 digital audio channels, which seems like an interesting technology to experiment with (what cables would work, what is the maximum length of cable, number of interconnects etc.). Thanks!

[@zolof911]

Digico has suggested the use of ferrites on cables used for MADI. They also said that ferrites might not be good for Dante. Could you please discuss the proper use of ferrites in a future video?

[@DaveRat]

I will ponder that. Not an area I have dived into but I believe ferrites are to filter EMI issues but also act as a low pass filter that is not optimal for data with frequencies above the low pass that the ferrites induce

[@hexapodium]

They'll definitely do nothing good for Dante - at the layer 0-2 level, Dante is just Ethernet with some extra performance requirements. Decent quality Ethernet already has good shielding - if you go all the way up to cat6a you're looking at a shield around all four pairs, and then individually shielded pairs - and a ferrite would only cause problems for the NICs, which are expecting 100 ohms +/-10% and nothing else. It should also be noted that this is how you 'extend' a Dante run, if RF/EMI is not a concern - you just use regular good-quality layer 1/2 Ethernet switches, which will add a few microseconds of latency in the worst reasonable case for this sort of thing, and in practice on a Dante network or vlan will be adding hundreds of nanoseconds at maximum. In a really EMI-noisy situation, the solution for the packet-switched protocols is to use fiber instead (i.e. with a switch with a fiber port at each end) - but I suspect in an environment with enough RF to cause problems for a well-constructed Ethernet network, you'd have plenty of other problems to deal with first. Not many gigs in live steel foundries or primary radar sites.

[@DaveRat]

👍🎛️👍🎛️

[@recordwithyourfriends]

Apologize if this is a bit off topic, but Dave, have you or anyone had any luck driving production intercom over Ethercon/cat cable? Have tried multiple cables and break ins/outs with no luck. Trying to cut down on the analogue cables deployed from stage to FOH in the main bundle/snake. Figured it has something to do with the call shunting/grounding etc.

[@DaveRat]

All the SoundTools analog over cat products will run com over cat. I did a video where I run a mic, AES, line level and clearcom down a single ct5e simultaneously. As long as it's 3 pin com and it uses pin 1 as common/ground, it will work. Must be shielded cat cable If you are having issues maybe join the channel members Telegram channel. There is a link in the members dashboard Or call sound tools and will help ya

[@fritzarmstrong8232]

Good to 80*C ? Good thinking on that spec! Never know where you may need to run wiring... like over a pizza oven🔥

[@DaveRat]

Yeah! The cold side of the spec has a power company in Alaska using our cable. For the got side it's all about not getting soft and fragile jacket tears when baking in the sun

[@Arthur-ke9vz]

So for reference, how long is the run to FOH for Coachella main stage?

[@DaveRat]

Mainstage we use 100 m but for Sahara tent guest consoles need 110 m. And we run into issues with fans bringing X32 and M32 consoles in. The blue Super Cat sound cable will do 100 m for an AES 50 feed but just barely and not a lot of buffer. We're going to be adding one of these new red cables to all of our snakes to handle any AES 50 artists that show up

[@Arthur-ke9vz]

@@DaveRat thank you. I’m 58, so probably not cool enough to go to Coachella, but it sure always looks like fun. Arthur

[@DaveRat]

Ha! I turned 62 last week and go every year. But. Yes, not as an audience member which I think would be more than I would want to dive into.

[@Arthur-ke9vz]

You Rock!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Arthur you rule!

[@jasonlapasinskas5302]

Still curious about the Pro series. It was always spec’s UTP. I use a Rapco quad cat6 that is solid core and 200’ and haven’t experienced any issues with my Pro1 or 2 and DL251 box.

[@DaveRat]

You will fine. All the AES50 consoles seem to work with almost any Cat cables below 70 meters and solid conductor carries AES50 farther than stranded. The challenge is getting cable that is stranded that is over 80 meters to work well

[@angelorasmijn7306]

I bought a Midas M32C and a Midas HUB4 for my bands new in-ear system. So, I stepped into the AES-50 cable minefield.😉 So, just to be safe, and to have the best cable, I bought Dave Rat’s SuperCat Cat5 cables. Problem solved!😅

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and let me know how it works for you! And thank you

[@rolfdc2934]

I wonder what the limit would be with one single length of good quality cable, without connections in between, because I think that the rj45 connectors are the weakest points. I also would like to see heavy duty ( or older models of ) light dimmers around the aes50 cable, and find out if the shielding will keep the interference out.

[@DaveRat]

Quile the couplers may impact different signals differently, in other tests that I did the Cat6a coupler had an impact of about 0.1 dB of loss which is not a lot. There are other factors where different types of cable can cause impedance mismatches and reflections and quality of the connections themselves can deteriorate. My guess is that The issues that people have experienced with couplers are more related to dirty RJ45 connections than to the couplers themselves. Also the cheaper Cat 5e cup loose are definitely more susceptible to losses hogher of frequencies. I'm guessing I could get a couple more meters of length by not using couplers but making long cables that are non-standard lengths is a bummer

[@halidharis]

Since we use digital “snake box/stagebox,,,what i understand is the heart of the system switch from the console to the stagebox,and the console become the “remote” just like midi controler…but i might be wrong😅

[@DaveRat]

Depends on the console. Some consoles have the brains inside the surface, some have the brains in external racks and the surface is a remote

[@duroxkilo]

pardon my ignorance, ethernet/network switches are incompatible w/ the data transmission protocols in pro-audio? (these days switches introduce latency under 0.1ms)

[@DaveRat]

There are many audio over network formats used for pro audio. Some are Ethernet compatible, some are not. AES50 is a layer 1 and does not use the Ethernet frame structure. Latency added by switches and such once a signal is digital tends to be very low The issue is in the conversion from analog to digital and back to analog where conversions to and from more complex layer 2 and 3 Ethernet adds more latency than converting to and from layer 1. The issue is that later 1, while having very low latency conversions, also does not have all the the features and compatibilities and protections of the higher levels en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_network_protocols

[@duroxkilo]

@@DaveRat thanks mr Dave, i understand... i did not expect that plethora of protocols :)

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙 cool cool and I like hearing and exploring all perspectives

[@thestudbq]

Fantastic!!!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@kubik554]

You are so good!!!

[@DaveRat]

So cool thank you!

[@LastLeg]

I've often wondered and I'm hopeful I don't sound stupid asking. In your travels, have you noticed a difference in how a rig will sound based on where it is in the world? I mean, does the UK have a "sound", how bout the middle east or Russia. Do different parts of the world physically sound different? Based maybe on atmospheric conditions or the way resonance works in those locations. Down to the type of rock in the ground. It sounds like something that would be a thing. Maybe you got a minute to answer.

[@DaveRat]

Temperature, altitude and the shape and type of ground and surrounding plant life and structures definitely impact the sound drastically. I've done several videos on the impacts of heat on sound as well as an AES paper on the impact of heat altering dispersion of loudspeaker horns. Separately from that they're definitely are also cultural differences in the types of sound different regions find desirable. Some countries tend to lean more towards powerful low end and some tend to lean more towards clarity and upper frequencies with subdued low frequencies. Not so much now as it used to be many years ago. Years ago the differences were quite drastic as you traveled around the world when you went to local clubs and listen to the tonal mix of the sound. My opinion is that when iPhones and iPods and became worldwide available, that tended to normalize sound towards a common reference point which didn't exist before that

[@LastLeg]

@@DaveRat How sad is that? The dissolution of analog culture as it's swept along into the digital normalcy. Copies of copies. To your point though I'm interested. The music of the Arabic culture. The nonPythagoran structure. You think that could have roots in the geography as strongly as the culture? That feels like it would open a huge can of what if's about geographical resonance directly influencing cultural development. Very interesting. Also, I watched your videos ages ago about how heat, cold and humidify influence audio propagation. We have an amphitheater on the river here in Little Rock. During shows you can sometimes hear the moisture rolling off the river and crossing in front of the stacks. It's the odd phasing. You're demo with the blow dryer really opened my head to that type of thing. I've written a little program for my audio palls that lets you plug in temp and humidity when calculating time delays. I think it makes me look smart. :) Appreciate the reply.

[@jblcontrol28crossover76]

Are you sure the problem is ESD and not RFI? Shielding the cable helps keep RF from infiltrating the signal path.

[@DaveRat]

Perhaps watch this vid and let me know what you think kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faM

[@jblcontrol28crossover76]

@@DaveRat Interesting video. I love your videos. Keeps me learning, keeps me thinking. Try adding a ground wire between the two components (like you find on a turntable) and I'd bet the system runs static-stable even with lower grade cables. When you hit one component with static discharge that potential spike travels to the other component through the signal cable. That causes a large noise event in the signal. Large enough to disrupt the signal. Heavily shielded cable affords a better ground path between the two components. The easier it is for that spike to dissipate through the grounding conductor, the less of it will be going through the signal conductors. Another experiment is to try a ground-lift on one of your high quality cables. With no chassis ground path to use, ALL of the voltage spike will go through the signal conductors and step on the signal. I bet you'd find that configuration to be static-unstable even with the higher grade cable. My theory is the shielding is not acting as a shield to stave off the static hits. The shielding is acting as a ground strap which provides the hit with a path other than the signal conductors. Hope I explained myself understandably.

[@DaveRat]

Hmm, best I can tell from testing, the double shield increases the quality of shield and reduces the resistance of the shield and helps reduce the impact of the ESD and EMI. This accounts for shielded cable being more tolerant to interference But also and just as important, low loss of signal level is critical. 24dD of loss is the max recommended loss. 24db at 100MHz is a lot of loss! That is like 1/300th of the original signal making to the other end of the cable. With such a low signal level, vulnerability to interference is greatly increased. Having less loss gives a better signal to noise and reduces drops and pops. Hence why this low loss cable performed better than other cables with similar shielding

[@sambaker7255]

Really interesting !!!

[@DaveRat]

👍🎛️👍

[@FOHGeek]

Will third-party not-audio-specified generic Ethernet to Fiber converter work with AES50?

[@BineySaurus]

Unfortunately no, because AES50 isn't ethernet. It's two data signals and 2 clock signals.

[@DaveRat]

What Bineysuarus says is correct. Even if you did want to add additional costs, complexities and setup time of a conversion, it wouldn't work. Unless if you bought the DN9610 or DN9620 which are designed for it

[@GlennAndrewSmith]

Hi Dave, interesting video as always. However it makes me wonder why we ever send any audio all the way to a digital FOH desk and back to the stage. (Regardless of brand ). It is completely unnecessary. I NEVER do that. I still use and love X32 style systems and use X32 rack and Midas M32 rack with M32 stage box all on stage run with wireless i pads and for connective insurance a PC hard wired with the relevant app. The PC can be any where in the hall with a cat 5 cable. There is never any connection problems like pops and things with cables of 1 m. So that said, noting that sound guys like hands on faders and things, why is nobody making remote control desks that replicate current surfaces. To explain further, you have an X32 M32 Wing Digico etc that looks and feels exactly the same as the real thing but with nothing except a Network connection to the brain on the stage. Perhaps their could be a couple I/O's for playing 2tracks or delay stacks.This all could be wired, wireless, internet etc. Audio latency would never be an issue. You could mix from half way around the planet ( That would be fun !) My analogy would be a TV remote. You would never find a TV that sends the video signal to the remote controller and back. The whole cat 5 thing for live sound would be redundant. And a foot note, perhaps we could have software updates that allow X32 etc desks to remote operate rack mounted desks ? Gee that would be a good idea ? Perhaps a Business opportunity here ? ( Or do I send this to Uli ?) What do you think ?

[@DaveRat]

Yes there a lot of options in ways to do things. Simplicity and redundancy are important factors. Some consoles are just dumb surfaces while others have the engines and processing inside. Regardless, The need for desire for various analog outputs to be locally generated at front of house is quite common and to have all of the signals remotely located creates another level of complexity for something that's quite simple with the current arrangements. It's very easy to transport the signals long distances and with more expensive consoles that have built-in fiber or other formats, the hundred meter distance is a non-issue. With the budget-minded M32 and X32 that have built-in AES50, the long lengths do pose a challenge. But since that challenge is easily solved by using a cable that works, The issue can be easily solved. The big problem here was lack of clear information and the fact that the manufacturer doesn't make a cable that meets the specifications that the manufacturer states are needed for the cable. They screwed up inspect a 100 m cable limit based on unshielded cable and then realized that unshielded cables have ESD issues and then change the specification to shielded cables that don't work at 100 m. Manufacturer side step issues like this all the time with proper testing or manufacturing cables or parts that meet the specifications that they publish. This is an example where a manufacturer failed to do so

[@stephanwestphal1546]

That is actually quite common in broadcast. Have a look at the Lawo mc2 56mk3 or 96 or 36mk2xp - they all use external processing (1 RU devices) that can sit in a rack on stage or data center and the console is just a very nice remote and uncritical for anything but the audio the engineer feeds in at the local-IO of the console. For my mixing, I do the same with a M32C sitting in the Rack at the amps and controlling it via mixing station and a midi controller (currently x-touch, might upgrade to waves fit). Just missing a nice midi controller for the dedicated channel strip controls (eq,gate/comp/gain/lc). Talkback and headphones is usually via a small dante interface (There's a dante card in the M32C as well). Has been more stable so far than using the x-touch as a remote directly.

[@DaveRat]

@stephanwestphal1546 data and control over cat cable is indeed super common. What is not common and is the focus of this video is the aes50 protocol being stable without dropouts when run on cable lengths over 80 meters. There are whole messages boards and discussions desi ated to aes50 issues with long cable runs. Aes50 is much different than Dante or AVB and solving the long cable length issue for aes50 is useful and valuable to many. All that said, this cable's design and ability to run aes50 long distances up to 130 meters also make it capable of stable reliable runs of other protocols like Dante and Milan and AVB long lengths that exceed the 100 meter specification limit.

[@andrew2004sydney]

Put some sparks next to the cable while it's operating - something like a gas stove igniter or piezo spark generator.

[@DaveRat]

Maybe check this video for a more in depth test using lighter sparks and a cable certifier kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=jZUCL5w71w4gkOAo

[@supercoolawesomemusicstudio]

Never a blink 👀

[@DaveRat]

No time for blinking

[@supercoolawesomemusicstudio]

@@DaveRat Agreed! ;)

[@DaveRat]

😉

[@techguypaul]

why not offer a single 110m cable? Having to extend the cable adds another possible point of failure.

[@DaveRat]

100 meters is an international standard length. The CAT6a coupler only introduces .1dB of loss which is not significant and the coupler is water proof and robust. Having a cable that is 10 meters too long bundled with your 100M power, 100 meter fiber and 100 meter Cat5e cables would be an awkward adventure and 1/2 the time that 30ft pigtail would be on the wrong side that you need the extension

[@techguypaul]

@@DaveRat robustness aside though, it still adds 2 additional points of failure that you would need to troubleshoot on site if the link fails. If you have a single cable, you know to swap that out. If you have 2 cables, not only could you need to try swapping each cable, but also the coupler to fix the link.

[@DaveRat]

Another advantage of the 110 meter cable is that very few people will need to troubleshoot it if it does mess up, because sales on non-standard cable legs tend to be greatly diminished compared to selling internationally standardized cable lengths Very few people will need the 110 m or 120 m lengths, but if you do need it knowing that it's capable of doing it is helpful. Just like having a car that goes 120 mph that you never drive 120 mph. The faster the top speed of a car is the more laid back it will be when traveling it normal speeds and the more confident you will be that you have something with significance capabilities that exceed your needs All that said, I will gladly custom make you or anyone 110 m length for less than the cost of the hundred plus the 10 m plus the coupler. Just let me know when and where to ship it.

[@francescogregorace8465]

"Blow up the outside world", right??? ;-) Ciao Dave

[@DaveRat]

😁😁😁

[@Sool101]

Silly question but, instead of shielding cables, why not simply: shielded cable runners when passing beer stands, aggregates and when crossing other cables?

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, the father away the protection is, the more total amount of protection is needed A cable may only need some foil and braid, but to protect the runners and every location a cable may run, would probably require 100s if not 1000s or 10,000s times more metal, weight and cost. One could wear a wetsuit to stay warm in the ocean, or could get a small submersible or you could section off an area wherever the swimmer may travel and try and warm the ocean water for that area. One could invest in a faraday shield to broect the entire building as well. Or just use cables that have good shielding The costs and complexities get logarithmically larger.

[@Sool101]

@@DaveRat thanks a whole lot for this elaborate answer, love you for this man.

[@DaveRat]

Google and thank you!

[@TylerMarletteNY]

how far is the super cat 5E rated to run aes50?

[@DaveRat]

To stay inside the spec, 75 meters. Here is a link to the SoundTools cable comparison chart. It's on Facebook at the moment but will be up on the SoundTools site soon. images.app.goo.gl/c8N5WNUUCj4BEMKf6

[@jmir000]

A balloon farm full of sheep 🤣🤣🤣

[@DaveRat]

🐑🐑🐑🐑🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈

[@supercompooper]

one would have thought an optical transceiver would have been the best way to do it.

[@DaveRat]

It definitely is a way to do it. Especially if you have a deep love of carrying a few wall warts and patch cables and extra gear to patch in, you can get really long lengths up to 500 meters. Especially on that day where the power supply for the optical transceiver does not make it into the workbox. There is no right right way, really just depends on the application. We are almost all fiber optic but when an X32 shows up at a festival, its good to have a cable to get them running

[@Chillidude22]

Can we see a test of SuperCat XM in this "balloon farm full of sheep" you speak of.

[@DaveRat]

SuperCat XM is the #1 preferred cable by all balloon farms. 🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🎈🎈🎈🎈🎈

[@FaultyMusic]

would be awesome to see a custom prototype at 140m-150m layed out with no joins, id be amazed if you couldn't get a solid 140m signal! purely to fun of course, 130m is going to be massive for most gigs out there, no one wants to run FOH over 100m from the stage :P

[@DaveRat]

May e check out this vid where I go into more depth and use the final production cable. It still has extensions but hits 140. Mathematically and measurement wise, the cat6 couplers only cost about .4% in length or so. So maybe 1.4 meters of length lost per coupler. In this other vid I do ESD test and test with a cable certification tester as well www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbQXOXWuxCGA&ved=2ahUKEwidk9P6s-2GAxXeKUQIHVdrCLQQwqsBegQIExAG&usg=AOvVaw1jPWndJ3Pd7YiV1eWA8rlw

[@FaultyMusic]

Oh nice I'll check thst out for sure!

[@IrenESorius]

11,s tha shiiiit,, 👍‍‍🌟👍‍‍ Cheers from Sweden,, 🍻😎🇸🇪

[@DaveRat]

Fun and love Sweden! Don't totally love the sound in the globen. But I love everything else about Sweden

[@averydesignvideo]

the 100M length comes from the basic ethernet cat cable spec

[@DaveRat]

This may be true but AES50 is not ethernet. It can't pass through ethernet switches or hubs. And doesn't have the protection and error correction that ethernet would have I didn't extended length video going into in-depth tests and the specifications for AES 50 if you're interested in nerding out on this further. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=E8ReFXuQwhiK1rq9

[@NiddNetworks]

I literally wrote this BEFORE I saw the end of the video!! So I sound like a real dumb ass!!!... Hi Dave, do you think there's a difference in limitations with the cable coiled vs. straight? Even with the tech of twisted pairs, shielding etc. I would assume that a coil would be more susceptible to breakdown Vs the same length run out - and also would have a different capacitance / inductance too. Not saying your tests here aren't meaningful - and they definitely raise the main underlying point, know your gear's limitations - but I'd love to see you get that 140m length (or whichever one it was) which failed, and run it out in maybe a couple of long double-backed lengths and try it... It might even be better!!

[@DaveRat]

Coiled should actually be worse but not much if at all. But thank you and as far as reaching that 140 length, check out this video where I did a more in-depth test and used the final production cable And I was able to get that 140! kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=bPEQLLVh0ERsgviB

[@FVDaudio]

✨✨👏🏻👏🏻

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍😁😁😁

[@Mtaalas]

I've seen ethercon cables that have had horrible grounding. In ethercon the shield should be installed such that it connects to the RJ45 sheild contact AND the ethercon shield contact... often this is botched and there's bad grounding on both or at least on one end of the cable. These cables then do not pass the ethercon specification and cause havoc on AES50 runs. CHECK YOUR BOUGHT CABLES! If they're badly done, refund and get something better! ALSO! There's a specific list of ACCEPTED connector brands that ethercon can support, one of those being Hirose... if your ethercon cable uses something outside of that list, it's bad and should be refunded or rebuilt! This is to do with physical size so it'll ground properly and fit properly and makes proper contact when plugged in. Wrong size connector within the ethercon shell can cause havoc as well...

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@gurudattabeura6738]

Hello Sir I'm From India Can You Please Make A Single 21" Speaker (B&C 21SW 152) Subwoofer Enclosure Design For Very Good Vibration And Long Throw Punch In Outdoor Area

[@gurudattabeura6738]

Which Enclosure Should You Suggest For For Better Response For Outdoor.. Good Vibrations and Long Throw Punch

[@StephenTack]

BBQ lighter test?

[@DaveRat]

Maybe check this vid for more in depth testing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIK7gIuNqt12faMsi=jZUCL5w71w4gkOAo

[@edwinhamers6723]

So its time that all interconnects just switch to an optical solution. Much cheaper and more reliable.

[@DaveRat]

Yes! and all we need to do is a quick design of several thousand drop in retrofits for the tens of thousands of consoles that have already been released, and the work out a worldwide distribution and installation team to head out and get 'er done. Maybe we start a go fund me and once we get A few hundred million dollars in donations we should have a good foundation to start the project. In the meantime we could probably just get a cable that works for the application at hand

[@TheManLab7]

I really miss gigging 😪😔

[@DaveRat]

🎛️🔧🎛️👍👍

[@kenp9073]

Fiber not affected by static/EMI. Sign me up!...lol

[@DaveRat]

well, Is any fiber impacted by static? EMI should be pretty well handled by most double shielded cat cables. The ESD issue is challenging as you need double shield and low loss such that the signal is protected and also not so quiet as to les ESD be an issue. This cable does a really good job at both.

[@kenp9073]

​@DaveRat True, true. I would much rather a 1m cable to a media converter at each end. Can run fiber miles depending on type. Fiber is cheap. Only downsides of fiber are strength and bendability. Didn't you do a video on Dante, and lengths? Thank you Dave, I learn something from you every video. Keep them coming brother!

[@nicolasdelatte641]

AES50 is not directly “media convertible” . bc of wired clock signals

[@DaveRat]

I started working on a Dante cable vid. But I really need to do it at the rat shop when we're not busy as there's too many variables to do at home where I normally film videos

[@DaveRat]

And also AES50 is a completely different format that is not compatible with switches and routers and all the other stuff

[@stevean77]

I can't take this kind of stress I just use my Whirlwind and a desk it will connect to

[@DaveRat]

I do love analog. Just like I like snowboarding and mountain bike riding more than playing video games

[@stevean77]

@@DaveRat Haaaaa yah Bro me too

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@videyo098]

If an X32 found is at a gig 100m from stage, that won't be the biggest problem that day. 😂

[@ThunderPantaloons]

I just so happen to live in a balloon farm with sheep. 🎈🐑

[@DaveRat]

🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑

[@artysanmobile]

Latency? Nope. Ontimency.

[@TheGarageBandSyndicate]

All this testing and not a single Ballon or Sheep. How will we really know? Lol

[@DaveRat]

This is true and until we really get a proper balloon farm test involving sheep it's all just theory and assumptions and we don't really know what will happen

[@cinemaipswich4636]

AES does not use CAT cable. It uses a XLR type of shielded cable. No studio need 100 metres of any type of cable anywhere.

[@DaveRat]

Perhaps a Google search of AES50 or AES67 will enlighten the depths of you knowledge I m guessing you are only aware of AES3, but there is more out there! Like things called live shows and festivals that have huge sound systems, sometimes 100,000s of watts or more that make the glorifies home stereos used in recording studios look like tiny little toys.

[@LorneVignettes]

In what situation would you ever need to run a cable that long? I just don't know who would ever need to run 200m let alone 300m.

[@DaveRat]

Festivals, arena shows where the cable run needs to go around the side and mix position is far back, stadium shows, or just gigs where the cable is not allowed to cross the path of people walking and the long way around is a long long way around. 100 m is actually the standard front of house snake length for large sound vendors throughout the world

[@LorneVignettes]

@DaveRat Yeah, I guess you are right. That's very interesting. That cable you have looks extremely quality.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool and thank you!! I am always amazed at usages and challenges audio humans face. Calls about analog cable runs for a marathon race, cable distances involved in doing sound for air shows and the cable runs for a power company in Alaska, are all real world calls and cable sales we have done with our various cables. Super fun!