Some fatherly advice (DS9: S03, E05)

[@russell5078084]

It's amazing how much her attitude about cardasians changes over the series.

[@originalbadboy32]

its called character growth, something that appears to be lacking in most modern TV series

[@russell5078084]

@@originalbadboy32 not to mention lacking good writing or original ot ideas.

[@Cyberbyte_010]

If u notice at 0:07, when Ghemor says "there's no place for me here" the Bajoran behind them heading for the ship, he pauses and looks at him with distain. The fact that Kira can have a civil chat with a Cardassian and that passing Bajoran can't shows the change of attitude and contrast.

[@hmrhuang]

It was part of some great character development for her!

[@agenttexx]

The fact she later buries him in her family plot goes on to show how much she has grown during the series.

[@Rensune]

Considering the nature of Cardassians, Ghemor calling Kira family is very touching.

[@xanderfulton3186]

family is everything to a Cardassian

[@jmwoods190]

​@@xanderfulton3186 And Kira effectively became Ghemor's stepdaughter

[@NWCountryGirl17]

Well to be fair... GARAK Himself is always saying things along the lines of "If you're smart you'll be suspicious ESPECIALLY of Me."

[@uncletaylorify]

Garek would actually feel insulted if people trusted him 😆

[@wcarnold]

What an amazing gift she gave her "father". His actual daughter is likely dead, but she was able to tell him that his daughter loved him. The release of tension at that moment allowed him to move on and carry on with his life. What a scene!

[@graceskerp]

Also Kira finally was free of her corrosive hatred of Cardassians. Trek at its best scene.

[@cwash7708]

I have always liked this clip. This was early on in the series. It added another layer of mystery to Garak about himself and his past.

[@samsonguy10k]

What's best is it was always right not to trust Garak, even though he became the most trustworthy Cardassian known. Mostly because he needed watching over to be helped up from time to time.

[@chrisburrows9758]

DS9 really made us feel for these people through amazing story telling, now if someone could just tell Kurtzman This is the Way(Yes I know I'm mixing genres).

[@marcusanders5320]

I love this scene because it showed the ability to grow beyond the occupation for Kira and how forgiveness and admiration can still be found in the most unlikely of places.

[@RicoRaynn]

DS9 was incredible. While TOS and TNG tackled alot, DS9 went hard into religion, racism, and all the really nasty things human beings are capable of. Despite all that, it always found a way to end on the characters coming out in a better and more hopeful place. I miss that in Star Trek. To many CGI battle scenes and hack characters these days, instead of honest moments into what it means to just be a good person/being/entity.

[@frankieelder3210]

When Quark, Nog went back in ti time they tackled smoking and nukes

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Meanwhile, Harry Kim at the end of Voyager behaves and acts exactly the same as he did in the premier episode as if nothing happened in those seven arduous years.

[@paradisebreeze1705]

Real SJ stuff not like today's rubbish

[@RicoRaynn]

@@paradisebreeze1705 I also loved how casual DS9 was in their diversity. The minute Discovery started announcing they were the forerunners for diversity, I rolled my eyes. You can't claim to be a trend setter when it was done almost two decades before, and done much better. And DS9 had Garek....so your chances of being better are pretty slim on that alone.

[@builder396]

@@RicoRaynn Agreed. DS9 was the first and so far only series I know of where humans are in the minority even in the main cast, and even most recurring or background characters are aliens, too. They also non-chalantly threw small gems into the dialog, like Bashir and Sisko talking to each other about a male alien crewmember being pregnant, or Kira and Odo going over security reports and coming across a case of domestic violence where the man was the victim. Not to mention masterpiece LGBT episodes like Rejoined or Chimera, both tackling homosexuality with a nuance and progressiveness that never felt preachy and even modern series should take as an example to follow. Neither episode even made mention of homosexuality directly, closest to it was Quark talking about a "changeling pride parade". This shit was the NINETIES! How have modern series regressed so much that they have to brag about every instance they broke the norm?

[@EnterpriseKnight]

0:10 look at that guy looking down on that cardassian. That's great attention to detail.

[@sisenor4091]

I’m glad you mentioned that. The look on his face.

[@antilarge7860]

This is why DS9 is amazing.

[@Argumemnon]

And yet he turned out to be one of the most helpful characters on the show.

[@jmwoods190]

To be fair to Ghemor, he probably recongized the traits of an ex-Obsidian operative in Garak, and Ghemor detested the Obsidian order. Plus pre-Dominion Garak wasn't as loyal to the DS9 crew as he later became, and he was also much more openly proud of his ability to deceive others back then.

[@iliedandcheated]

To be fair-one of the best trek episodes ever

[@bentencho]

He tells her that Garak is untrustworthy.... yet it was Garak waiting in the shadows ready to shoot Rusot when he was in an altercation with Kira. Garak was also ready to shoot Rusot again when Rusot was thinking of shooting both Kira and Odo.

[@jmwoods190]

I don't really blame Ghemor for this- he clearly distrusts the Obsidian Order as a dissident and probably recognized an Obsidian Order agent by their actions alone. Garak was formerly with the Obsidian Order and still had the skills he learnt from them, and that would've no doubt made Ghemor suspicious. Also by the time of he saved Kira & Odo Garak had already become much more loyal to his friends on DS9.

[@lordfaladar6261]

I think Garak was afraid for so long he didn't know how to trust and just reacted to the situation in a definable manor for so long it was hard for him to do the right thing

[@WeinsEarp]

This is one of my favourite Star Trek episodes. Very good story telling.

[@JohnsTrainVideos]

So many great character arcs on this show, but I feel like Garak's is the most disjointed. We don't really get to see why everyone knows him and hates/fears him. And we also don't really get to see WHY he changed so much. He just.... *is* changed. With others, like Kira here and Odo and Sisko, we see how their experiences changes them over the 7 years.

[@FalconNest]

Maybe this is way Garak is so interesting: because we do not really know why people ought to be afraid of him. To expand on this without ruining the character would have taken a wonderfully written (and excellently directed) two-parter. As for the disjointed arc, I agree with you. I'm curious to hear what others will say, but I always thought that the writers could have made better use of Garak in DS9. E.g. an episode such as "The Wire" (S02, E22) gives away so much information in one go, and I would have love an episode like that to come in, say, S03 or S04.

[@tmagee27]

Well we do see elements of it, his relationship with his 'mentor' and why he would be so loyal to such a brutal man. When he gets drugged on the other Cardassian station. When he is called upon to hack into devices. When Sisko needs him to do the things, he couldn't. I think Garak hides it because he knows he's done some monstrous things, but then developed a conscience.

[@paradisebreeze1705]

Oh trek where did it all go wrong for you.

[@FalconNest]

I suggest asking Alex Kurtzman.

[@giovannibarbato4558]

Oh God, i love Cardassians!

[@tobiaswalker7562]

If they ever did a follow up season or series, I hope the Profits give her a vision of her two fathers meeting each other.

[@dativodonategrandes3601]

Well that's not very nice

[@BladeOfLight16]

Imposter. Garek would have agreed heartily with everything he said.

[@blazer2123]

Oh I wouldn't be too hasty now. If i'm not entirely mistaken, I dare say I detect a degree of *very* Garak like sarcasm in that comment. ;)

[@dativodonategrandes3601]

@@BladeOfLight16 , my dear friend, I assUre you I Don't understand why that fellow cardassian would distrust me with such intensity. After all, a mere tailor must provide reliance to his treasured costumers. I'm positive everyone at the station think highly of their esteemed civil servant. Ask anyone! ,:)

[@jmwoods190]

​@@BladeOfLight16 "Legate, there may be hope for you yet 😉"

[@allenmurotake-fujikura9974]

One of my favorite episodes. I believe though that your title has the wrong episode.

[@hamsterking91]

One of the best shows ever written..I have such high hopes for Strange New Worlds..becasue that sht storm called discovery..I mean fking yuck!

[@jurigagarin5741]

Strange new worlds has the same crappy disco team behind. So dont expect to much ^^

[@sigiligus]

There seemed to be a lot of implied lore around Garak that never amounted to anything. Constant hints that he is incredibly dangerous, yet in the end he is a consistent ally.

[@FalconNest]

I guess that, in so doing, the writers had plenty of possibilities to develop his arc in different ways.

[@smartalec2001]

Ghemor isn't wrong, but... to think how Garak ended up, eh? FOR CARDASSIIIIAAAA

[@MegaTechGuy]

Poor Garak... saves the B'ard's and they still treat him like crap.

[@FalconNest]

On a different level, I think this is a clever way for the writers to remind the audience of how shady a character Garak is (thus perhaps the coolest in DS9).

[@benjaminbierley2074]

Indeed, for Garak to elicit that sort of reaction really drives home that he must have been incredibly scary in the past before his exile. Ghemor's actor really sells the reaction of someone who knew the depth of what Garak was before and was scared enough to warn Kira despite Garak having just saved both of them.

[@skyserf]

I recall that Garak had no qualms with murdering Senator Vreenak and Tolar. He didn’t even hesitate.

[@absolutez3r019]

@@skyserf he also had no problems interrogating Odo either

[@DLordSadow]

@@absolutez3r019 Actually, Garak DID have a problem with interrogating Odo. He tried to wiggle out of doing it and when he was left with no other choice, he did but clearly hated doing it. He had none of that glee we see from him when doing various dark deeds. In fact, Garak ended up practically begging Odo to give him the cover he needed to end the interrogation because he couldn’t stand seeing Odo suffer.

[@scotthamp384]

Ghemor was wrong. Garak would never betray the Bajorans or the Federation

[@Excalibur01]

Technically he never betrayed Cardassia

[@scotthamp384]

@@Excalibur01 true, but he sure thought that it would be better if he helped the Federation and Bajor. In fact, without him, they would not have had a clear insight of the Cardassians

[@GooglyEyedJoe]

I'd say Ghemor was correct in his warning about Garak though, Garak didn't benefit from 'betraying' DS9, the only time he got close to it was when he wanted to turn over Natima Lang and her rebel associates in 'Profit and Loss' when he held them at gunpoint, the only reason he chose not to go through with it was because of the arrival of Toran who informs Garak that handing over these dissidents won't restore his reputation and bring him out of exile and so he kills Toran instead and instead lets them go. Later when the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar launch their preemptive strike, Garak tortures Odo (Granted he doesn't enjoy it but he still does it regardless) on the orders of his father, Tain, in order to get back into good graces with the order, when that plan once again goes awry with the Changelings knowing about it and subsequent destruction of the combined fleet, Garak once again has no benefit to betray Odo and so they return to the station. After that when the Dominion War starts, Garak has no benefit to betray DS9 or the Federation because the new leader of Cardassia is Gul Dukat, his arch nemesis, so once again he doesn't betray them because it's not in his best interests to do so. Now granted I admit I believe Garak developed fondness and caring for those onboard DS9 so it seems hard to imagine Garak betraying them however take 'Our Man Bashir', Garak was perfectly fine with ending the holodeck program and possibly killing Sisko, Jadzia, O'Brien, Kira and Worf and only Bashir could stop him by shooting Garak: "That's why I've managed to stay alive while most of my colleagues are dead. Because I know when to walk away." so I wouldn't be surprised that if worst come to worst and it was a choice between Garaks life and the others, he'd choose to save himself depending on the circumstances.

[@jmwoods190]

​​​​@@scotthamp384 I think the reason for Ghemor's distrust was that Garak was a former Obsidian Order agent, and Ghemor deeply distrusts the Order. In his eyes, Garak & Entek were the same untrustworthy entity. And sadly Garak didn't get to prove Ghemor wrong before he died. Perhaps in an alternate timeline Ghemor would recover from his illness and accepted Kira has his stepdaughter, and would slowly come to trust Garak!

[@frankieelder3210]

I wept……

[@ABCDG13]

I wonder if Illiyana and sesska on voyager were the same person!

[@FalconNest]

Interesting point! I hope that were not the case for Legate Ghemor: Seska is such a hateful character (I never could feel any empathy for her, even when she was pregnant) and must have not been a very loving daughter. Nerys is no doubt an extremely strong person, and hot-tempered, but deep down she so caring and humane.

[@ABCDG13]

@@FalconNest I know that the question was moot now that Sesska is now dead in the delta quadrant! But it would have been a good connection point between both shows!

[@FalconNest]

@@ABCDG13 absolutely! If done intelligently (as probably the producers of DS9 and VOY would have) this could have been a great idea for a two-parter episode!

[@gracecookie4604]

Oh that's a heartbreaking thought. For his sake I hope not

[@adriand817]

Very interesting.. especially since Seska was surgically altered to be a bajoran.. during the Maquis terrorism

[@yankeesrule587]

This is NOT Season 3 Episode 4

[@FalconNest]

You are correct. In the description I gave the accurate information, but I have now updated the title too. Thanks for pointing this out!

[@dampnickers]

I have my chosen family. We do Christmas together. We arent the same races, but they are all honourable and I love them very much.

[@Rensune]

Love is what matters.

[@michaelhoward688]

Hopefully they don’t make you drink a lot of kanar at the dinner!