Some Reasons why People Suck

If you can believe it this video is cut down significantly from its original length. I have been feeling a lot of frustration lately at our inability to forgive ourselves at all. Like, we're good at forgiving friends, bad at forgiving strangers, but worst of all at forgiving humanity in total, and I think that is in part because the price of admission to modern society seems to involve pointing a firehose of despair directly at your face.
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[@CorvidCastle]

there's this post on tumblr that says something like "the green brothers were made in a lab to be the world's first youth pastors for atheists" and i know that was supposed to be making fun of y'all but this video reminds me of that post but like, in a positive way. Nice secular sermon, man.

[@Candoran2]

Which is funny to me, because John was a chaplain and is still religious.

[@kashiichan]

​@@Candoran2If it's the post I'm thinking of, the poster was well aware of that and that's why they (and so many of us reading it) found it as funny as it was

[@onelius]

listening to this video gave me the same feeling, like listening to a secular sermon lmao (not in a bad way! just the passionate way of speaking and message)

[@nivision]

​@@onelius and honestly it inspired hope, but in humanity's potential and the vastness of the universe.

[@geisterkaktus]

thanks to that person for calling us young :D

[@jrpipik]

A friend of mine and I were talking the other day about how nice it is that we can eat at a restaurant or go to a bar without anyone smoking. Culture can change for the better.

[@ace.of.space.]

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[@giovannyarce]

The craziest thing is that it only happened because of the law penalizing for smoking at malls, restaurants etc... but is legal to sell it everywhere with a cancer warning label.

[@AllenLeland]

It really is so nice to go places without having to smell cigarette smoke.

[@danielepp3113]

It would also be nice to live in a society where a business can choose to allow smoking. Or be treated like a child... whatever...lol.

[@chickpeapeace]

unless you can't eat or drink indoors because of covid so you eat outside where everyone goes to smoke 🙄

[@Surefirechip]

Craving structure yet wanting to upend the structures that exist while simultaneously desperately clinging onto other such structures is about the most human thing ever

[@DisasterAster]

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[@AO2437.]

Autism + ADHD… this is ME!!! So me!

[@SofosProject]

I want structure, just not this particular structure!

[@Yixdy]

I think it's just a side effect of being American and not having a cultural identity of any kind

[@Magic__7]

have you twom just invented thanksgiving but for beef instead of turkey I don't im not American

[@NeatoPrsn]

"Cringe must be overcome" this has been my truth since turning 40. People can't be earnest anymore without being labeled cringe and we need to reverse this trend.

[@41-Haiku]

Cringe accellerationism: When everyone is cringe, no one will be!

[@kodabuck225]

I think it getting better, slightly, over the years, with how much diversity in everything is getting accepted nowadays. I remember it being way worse when I was a kid, back in tbe 00s and early 10s but eh that might've just been being in kid spaces.

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

meh, i don't think it's a trend, i think it's just adolescence. which lasts a bit longer than it used to.

[@jesscmcmxc]

"I am cringe, but I am free"

[@BlueInkAlchemy]

"It's easier to get someone into an electric car than it is to get them on a bus" is such a keen observation and also makes me incredibly sad.

[@EliasGitterman]

Right???

[@ElectricNed]

Buses have been punishment for being poor for all living memory in the US. It makes sense because they ARE worse. But they don't have to be, it's a societal choice.

[@41-Haiku]

I'm a big fan of the idea of never stepping foot on a bus ever again, and I simultaneously want bus systems to be much better for the people who would actually use them.

[@PrestoJacobson]

Buses don’t go out to where I work, so yes obviously cars are more useful due to the policy of punishing poor people/public good for the good of the one.

[@katyferenczy-dakin]

This seems like a particular US problem though. At least in urban areas in the UK, everyone I know uses the bus at some point.

[@juliemartinezgarcia]

"We think that we are individuals but we are possessed by our societies." Hank Green

[@ZeKiwiOfTheNorth]

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[@nateb7780]

Such a great quote. Suggestive not just of the importance of community on our beliefs but also how socially our brains are hardwired to overlook facts and not believe the truth if it is not also believed by our community.

[@silverandexact]

I'm reading A Beautifully Foolish Endeavor (no spoilers) and am at a point where the characters are talking about how people will use a new technology in a way aligned with the path of least resistance and one of them says, "People will just share the things that confirm their ideology, and those things will always exist. Our reality isn't about what's real, it's about what we pay attention to." Social technologies tell us where to point our attention, and we should try to align them with actual reality for the betterment of all.

[@GustavoCaucayo]

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[@AnastasioBonhnum]

F*ck Kendrick and Drake, hardest line of 2024

[@allisonpenner6313]

I really appreciate your video highlighting the necessity to change our diets and yet why it is so complicated. As someone who works for an agricultural nonprofit, one thing I would like to highlight is the role of subsidies and policies. Over 75% of agricultural subsidies in Canada go towards funding animal agriculture, which reduces the cost by more than half (and one study puts the economic cost of a burger at $30 USD). This creates food environments that incentivize meat-heavy diets. To use a parallel example, in places that are more walkable, car ownership is significantly lower which was not done through convincing people not to drive cars, but having a different context. I think to address meat consumption we will need financing and policies and enable the shift as well as changing social norms.

[@Idefilms]

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[@diarawisteria2218]

Absolutely. A basic example of this would be the sheer pricing of vegetarian food items. It simply costs the average person way more to try to cut meat out of their diet, so they don't, unless they're willing to sacrifice that aspect of their life, among others. For anyone struggling to pay rent or worse-off, it's likely something they just can't afford, even if they really want to live that lifestyle.

[@whynot131313]

And - those are so reinforced by the agriculture lobby, etc etc

[@MCTrapsandTutorials]

​​​​@@diarawisteria2218Thats kinda true for the most popular direct meat replacements, but vegetarian food is almost across the board cheaper. Lentils, beans, tofu are cheap. I think the social aspect is very important to this. People usually don't like making sacrifices and will build their moral stances to support what they already do instead of choosing what to do based on moral stances. Claiming that vegetarian food is too expensive is not the reason people don't switch. It is a justification for the fact that they don't want to make the sacrifice to switch.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Exactly. Meat has an advertising budget. That’s not “passive” wtf. If carrots had advertising budget then would increased demand for carrots, would that still be passive? This is so freaking annoying

[@benjaimen]

I know there's more to it than this, but reminded me of this: 'If your solution to some problem relies on “If everyone would just…” then you do not have a solution. Everyone is not going to just. At not time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they’re not going to start now.'

[@katherinemanno7687]

I mean yea but we can try🤷🏻‍♀️

[@Cyliandre441]

I don't like this. Saying "if everyone would" establishes an ideal, the next step should be discussing how to get there, not kill any and all thought by saying "well that's not realistic". Everyone should just stop accepting murder as a legitimate political tool, for example, if people would, the world would be better. That many people have a problem with doing that makes me despair. And the only solution to that is that people should just change their ideas, accept that the world would be better if they do so. Sometimes people just have to do better, and we can't get there through inoffensive iterative change. Sometimes you have to just do something, and make it clear to others that they should too, that otherwise they are responsible for evil. Not believing people should hold certain principles is lazy, because you never have to build good ideals if you act in a way as if there aren't universally good and correct ideas.

[@somegeese]

​@@Cyliandre441 I see what you're getting and and you're right to some degree, but "everyone should/n't" is, from a psychological perspective, the worst way to phrase it. I'm exhausted just thinking about engaging with the idea that everyone, literally everyone on the planet bar none, go along with what some people in wealthy countries say we should do. There's a judgemental aspect, a lack of nuance, room to put blame on regular ppl for the horrendous crimes of capitalism, the list goes on and on

[@AmblingTowardsAwe]

"Never perfect, but better" is a good way to keep moving forward. Happy Father's Day, Hank and John!

[@arin2747]

I've been watching vlogbrothers for at least 10 years and was recently reflecting on how much watching your videos each week, every week, for a decade has shaped how i think and live. I think hearing you guys say, in some way, almost every week that people are good, change is possible, and there are reasons to be optimistic has helped me build up the mental muscles to choose to be optimistic. some days that's a hard choice (especially since i studied conflict and war crimes in school and now research political violence for a living) but because i heard messages about the power that people have to change things every week since i was in my mid teens, I think I've had practice choosing hope, and I genuinely don't think i could have finished grad school and gone into the field I work in without that. thank you.

[@CheySandra]

I grew up going to church and now that I'm older (and very agnostic) I miss that kind of community so much! Small, local places where you meet with the same group of people year over year, different generations of family knowing eachother, helping eachother, planning potlucks, and coming together for weddings and funerals...it's really beautiful and something as an increasingly non-religious world should more seriously think about replicating.

[@aekaydubs]

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[@LauraOtermat]

When I lived in the US, I went to a Unitarian Universalist church. Lots of sermons about trees and community. It varied a lot, but the point was the group getting together and caring about each other, not about agreeing on anything religious. If you are willing to disagree with your fellow church-goers, maybe there’s a similar church in your community. Please forgive my recruitment pitch. I haven’t found something similar where I live and I miss it.

[@centaur7607]

Agreed. There are Humanist and Agnostic/Atheist groups in many cities, which is great, and some of these can be what we need for community. In Austin they have a church for the nonreligious (I don't remember what it's called, but it sounds amazing! I heard about it on the Religion for Breakfast KZbin). But having any secular alternatives to church would be great.

[@squamish4244]

I believe the decline in church attendance is one of the driving forces behind the loneliness epidemic and social media dependency, as well as more sinister issues like the replacement of religious belief - for all its negative consequences - with the worship of work, which has plenty of its own negative consequences. Notice how the second thing people always, ALWAYS ask you after your name is "What do you do?" because we define ourselves so much by our work. Part of this is because we simply spend so much time at work, but that itself raises the question of WHY we spend so much time at work, when our productivity as a society has risen enormously over the past century and especially rapidly since the Digital Revolution 30 years ago. And yet we are still putting away those 40+ hour workweeks. We don't question it, we just accept it as normal, when really, it's really bizarre. Some people also seem to gain a certain amount of validation in telling others just how packed their schedule is and how exhausted they are after a day of work - perhaps because it's a way of coping. But also, the work hours of CEOs and VPs have actually _increased_ in the last few decades, despite their having no need to work as much as they do. The 80-hour-workweek grindset these guys frequently post about seems like a way to shame the rest of us who are 'only' working 40 hours a week. Losers!

[@squamish4244]

@@LauraOtermat I agree. I'm into Tibetan Buddhism and the big, big downside is that there are so few of us - unless you live in coastal California lol or a very few other places - that the opportunity for community and making friendships is extremely limited. So I am thinking of joining a local Unitarian Universalist church as well, because they accept people of any denomination or none.

[@skylerwitherspoon]

I'm gonna use "a firehose of despair pointed directly at my face"

[@vlogbrothers]

Secret knowledge: In the unedited version of this video I screamed the sentence "that firehose of despair that modern society asks us to deepthroat to prove that we're not one of the baddies."

[@skylerwitherspoon]

@@vlogbrothers!!! how much to bribe you to send me a clip of that

[@oliedmis97]

y'all sleeping on "What are we?? 8 Billion monkeys? With Roads and hats??"

[@Idefilms]

+++ Skyler just casually diggin up secret knowledge

[@Martcapt]

​@vlogbrothers I see a photoshop meme being born out of this graphic imagery

[@annawest6317]

As a vegetarian, I remember that the hardest part of changing my diet, particularly in a meat-eating family, was knowing what to cook and how to create variety in my meals. Even if you’re just eliminating beef, it can be challenging. Perhaps we should collectively distribute our favorite non-beef recipes!

[@t3hsis324]

Ohhhh sounds like an awesome idea for the newsletter!!

[@thevth3754]

Chickpeas are brilliant, saute them with cumin, and whatever your go to flavors are, and toss them in whatever, rice, spaghetti, salad, casserole; Black beans work well for enchiladas, lasagna, tacos, burritoes, cook with garlic, onion, and salt (sorry if these are obvious, the hardest part for me was also figuring out what and how to cook, substitutions let me keep a lot of my original recipes)

[@agathayo7344]

Yes. That was the initial challenge for me too when I went vegetarian a decade ago. Now, it's so easy, and I very rarely miss meat. PLUS, it really helps with cholesterol and other health issues.

[@graysoncampbell3459]

The idea of eating chickpeas makes me want to rip out my tongue with my hand

[@PrincessZeldaGirl]

Switching to a veggie diet 100% of the time is very hard mentally, you have to rewire your mental recipe book from your entire life, and also give up on a LOT of social participation. But I think quitting beef specifically for the climate is very very easy. It's the worst by far, like insanely worse than closest contenders in terms of environmental effect. If people literally just switched to a different meat we would reduce climate change by 10%. It's crazy and you don't even have to change your habits

[@Parth-Jain-04]

I am a vegetarian, I have been my entire life. It was for pseudo-religious cultural reasons and I have been raised that way since birth. Now that I am an adult I don't have to be a vegetarian, but I still am, and when people ask why I still am I don't know how to answer that question. Sometimes I say it's about the climate, but that's a cop-out. "Some Reasons why People Suck" finally showed me why and gave me the words to explain why I still am vegetarian, the same reason people won't stop eating meat is the same reason why I won't start. Thanks for the insight

[@ace.of.space.]

I'm in the same boat - raised vegetarian and still vegetarian with no religious or cultural reason as to why. I just say it's mostly a habit - I am not moved to change my usual way of eating when it's serving me just fine, especially when that change would end up increasing my carbon footprint.

[@18puppies91]

For me, it is all about recognizing the consciousness of animals. I don't need to be religious to feel it is morally wrong to eat conscious beings.

[@jacobdudzik1307]

​@@18puppies91 I was vegetarian for the first half of my life. I felt the same. And then I realized regardless of that we all die, and if I have no understanding or beliefs in heaven or hell, then it makes no sense to sanctify consciousness. I'm just prolonging my selfish existence, just as everything else.

[@18puppies91]

@jacobdudzik1307 Interesting. I think it's important to remember, though, that animals are normally mistreated and killed at a much younger age than they otherwise would be.

[@falsename2285]

@@18puppies91 wild animals die VERY young VERY often. I raise my own livestock for my meat, I grow their feed and mine. Let me tell you, 99% of my livestock live a much longer life than theyd have had if they were wild. A wild rabbit just as an example, has like a 1% chance at being an adult, poor things are just cannon fodder. So if I let one grow 6 months and butcher it, it will have had a more secure, better fed, more stable environment its whole unnaturally long life, and only 1 'bad day', but its still far less bad of a day than it would be to get hunted by a coyote or something.

[@1SophieDEF1]

As a vegan of 6.5 years, I absolutely adore the concept of beef day! I wouldn't participate in the beef-eating myself but would be overjoyed to see the people in my life making positive steps towards bettering the planet. So glad this concept made it off the pod!

[@DavidBennettPiano]

3:37 totally agree! I’ve been vegan for 7 years and by far the hardest part is when eating out or being cooked for and having to explain your eating preferences and feeling like an inconvenience.

[@KalebPeters99]

Great to see you here, David! Love your work 🙏

[@luciabee]

oh hey!! i love your videos! and i have had the same experience being vegetarian and vegan -- the social adjustment has always been the hardest part

[@marylis84]

Hell is other people. Having heard "not even fish?" About 100 times since stopping eating animals and finding out that some people don't even register fish as animals I can do nothing but agree that the hardest part in all of this is always the carnivores

[@clairbear1234]

More recent vegan here and I am dreading this part of it

[@darcieclements4880]

It's even worse if you have a meat allergy because everyone's convinced it was a choice and then they will touch meat to your food and then you end up violently ill and using epi pens.... I don't eat out anymore and it is socially awkward every time when I am sitting with my friends at the table and they're eating and the servers like why aren't you eating anything and I'm like I would die. Also huge bummer for dating.

[@christopherbrand5360]

Not eating beef works for me. Not eating any meat, or dairy, or eggs also works for me. But I am a highly privileged individual. However, I am still faced with many social situations where people either say or imply that my diet is a problem for them. I really appreciate that you are having this conversation with us Hank and John.

[@kjpcgaming9296]

I feel like if YOUR diet is a problem for OTHER people then OTHER people have a problem that is not YOURS. hahahaha What difference does it make to other people what you eat? lol

[@ElijahCem]

Even better, I have a condition and I've learned that I cannot eat dairy or gluten. Easy you think. No. People have accidentally poisoned me and accidentally given be gluten filled bread and some people have accused me of being difficult. It happens to people with any sort of dietary differences apparently. Even ones I definitely did not choose.

[@lachouette_et_le_phoque]

Reflecting on that, I realise that I am pretty much facing no negative consequences for eating plant-based in my life - it's actually easier. I found the switching quite hard, grieving all the foods I couldn't eat anymore and having to learn cooking from scratch and having much less options for vegan food back then, but now it's normal and no big deal. I'm lucky that my family, friends and husband either support that lifestyle or don't oppose it. Really, surrounding yourself with people who live the life you want to live is an extremely effective social technology that I wish was available to more people.

[@christopherbrand5360]

@@ElijahCem do they sell shirts or hats with care instructions? “Do not feed gluten or dairy!” I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

[@christopherbrand5360]

@@lachouette_et_le_phoque my most recent experience with people being put out/offended was my ex and her husband… hahahaha. Divorce is a social technology, I guess. I love that you have such a supportive situation! Most people in my life are great about it too. Like I said, it’s a life of privilege and blessings :)

[@JasonKurtz1992]

"I inherited hockey... and it seemed frozen to me" I see what you did there. "What are we? Just a bunch of monkeys with roads and hats!" What an excellent sentence.

[@Mindwerkz]

Wait. Did he say "hats" or "cats"?

[@JasonKurtz1992]

@@Mindwerkz I heard "hats" but it very well could've been cats. Both are funny.

[@TRDPaul]

"We're just fucking monkeys with shoes." - Tim Minchin

[@ArborScientiae]

"What are we‽ *8 billion* monkeys, with roads and hats‽" 7:03

[@centaur7607]

I missed this, thanks for pointing it out. The answer is yes, of course.

[@adamdymke8004]

Methane has a average atmospheric lifespan of 12 years, while CO2 lasts centuries. Our CO2 emissions build up so stopping them early is extremely important. While methane emissions are easier to reduce, the problem is also self limiting and less time sensitive (barring strong climate feedbacks).

[@chasdavis]

A big reason US emissions have been going down is because production is being exported while consumption is unchanged.

[@geenskeen]

Yikes, so we are just outsourcing emissions?

[@artemisjohnson9368]

In the UK the government likes to trumpet that emissions have fallen by something like 40% on 1990 levels but when you include aviation and the emissions of what we import, it's only fallen by 10%...

[@southernbear736]

@@geenskeen Yeah man, almost like you can have all the agreements in the West all you like and you'll just see such industry pushed into China or India, least the Indians are starting to get the picture but when you have a Dictatorship of 2 Billion people who actively try to resist Western pressures as a staple of pride, yeah shit ain't gonna change.

[@gustavo_villaescusa]

Not really, exported emissions don't account for that much, in the case of the US it is 10% and it was already 10% in 2005. Here is the same source he uses in the video: ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2

[@ClimateN00b-ik2po]

“The forth hour of scrolling is more cringe than ANY OF THE OTHER STUFF I DO.”

[@Idefilms]

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[@validpostage]

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[@GraceTI]

In my 10 years of nerdfighting I have never heard Hank make that kind of voice!

[@DingleFlop]

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[@leanieb]

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[@autumnbrookesings]

"8 billion monkeys with roads and hats" is giving "3 ___ in a trench coat" and I feel like yeah that about reflects humanity and our efforts to do anything collectively

[@HeathcliffeMcHarris]

Strict class hierarchy

[@pedrogarcia8706]

A lot of those acres aren't owned by a person who loves what they do or whatever. They're owned by a corporation. If all the beef farmers were small farms that owned just enough land that they can tend it themselves the situation would be different.

[@mariannetfinches]

As someone who lives in a country where that is the case, it is different. We're still trying, but it's harder. The people working that land live on it. They never rest. It's their culture, their life & their heritage. Younger generations are diversifying when funds allow. We just need better subsidies & some patience. You have a different problem - lobbyists & aggressive advertising

[@Katiebartl]

I live in a state that produces a decent amount of beef, and typically when we buy it, we buy it from those local farms and ranches at a farmers market. The meat tastes better, it's not that much more expensive than the grocery store, and you know the cows basically just had one bad day which is what we can all hope for honestly. I spent almost 7 years as a vegetarian and being conscientious about where my food comes from is really important to me.

[@Levi-tm4gl]

More than half the state of Nebraska consist of what we call the sandhills. It is all cattle country because the climate, terrain, and soil is unsuitable for farming. Most of the land is owned by “small” family farms. I say “small” because these single family’s employ several cowboys and own tens of thousands of acres but they are still sole proprietors or LLC’s owned by families.

[@pedrogarcia8706]

@@Levi-tm4gl like the pioneer woman's husband right?

[@Emilyanns8]

I think Hank is addressing the fact that this is a part of agriculture and a way of life and that making it all go poof, which is always the grand idea with schemes like these, is super culturally insensitive and would lose human beings a lot of aggregate knowledge over millennia. But of course (and I think implicitly everyone watching knows this) in the western world factory farming is the norm

[@jesseepstein7326]

As a future rabbi I've often thought about how much Nerdfighteria resembles religion: shared holidays, songs, sacred books (written by John and Hank), revered figures (not just John and Hank, but others, including those who are memorialized such as Esther Earl), imagined figures, rituals (video frequency and previously video length, punishments, etc), mantras -- and now, dietary regulations/suggestions. It's remarkable how much the weekly videos resemble sermon styles: some preach values, some teach/comment on current events, some are pastoral, some encourage charity, gaining knowledge (a form of "truth"), etc. It's all of this, in addition to Hank's past comments about God, religion, etc, that make me simultaneously surprised and not to see this total embrace of the modern religion that this community has created. There are many wonderful takeaways from the incredible initiatives our Nerdfighter community has undertaken over the years, and I'm looking forward to considering them all, but for now, I'm grateful for the demonstration that if done in a certain way, religion is not at all "at odds with science". Religion, as Rav Hank teaches, is an awesome technology through which we can better connect with one another, channel our graitutde for others past and present, and distinguish that which we hold sacred/holy/special in some way, shape, or form. Religion, in its least harmful forms, is really just about giving meaning and structure to our lives. Sure, it's pretty arbitrary, but the fact that it's arbitrary and we get to choose what matters and how to hold that really what makes it so positively impactful. And making choices as a community, buying into something shared - a set of values, traditions that unite us in the spirit of repairing a broken world, making it a better place, and being part of something larger than ourselves, that's what religious community is all about. And I'm so grateful to have this second "religion" in my life. DFTBA - Don't forget to be *awe*some.

[@spark_matter]

I have long held the idea that religion is a tool, it can be used for good or for bad. My experience in judaism has been i assume similar to yours of it providing positive impacts on my mental health, meaning and structure, as well as a (queer accepting) community to lean on in times of crises; even though i know plenty of queer people who had absolutely terrible experiences in other organized religions. Recently, I started doing no-internet shabbats even though I haven't been very observant up till now because I desperately needed the mental break and it has made a major difference! It reminded me significantly of the value of choosing to take part in religion positively. You're hitting on a lot of points featured in my soapbox rants, like when people insist all religion is at odds with science just because some are rather famously that way, or similarly when people insist all organized religion is terrible because many are used oppressively, it drives me crazy. The truth is, humans are inherently emotional creatures so we seem to need some sort of technology that functions like a religion even if we don't call it one. I think that's why judaism centers debate because imo the true value of mitzvot is finding the values/reasoning behind them and trying to live by those things even if the world is significantly more complicated now. Good luck in rabbinical school btw!

[@elizabethbeierle7464]

Thank you for sharing this observation. As an atheist watching my father reconnect with church and organized religion, I’ve found myself in a parallel journey to finding a sort of “religion” of the values that I hold highest. Your comment made me realize that’s what I’m doing. Fascinating!

[@zpolygon95]

It's much easier to get people to drive electric cars then it is to convince them to ride busses -- but only when the busses are: poorly maintained, expensive at the point of service, inconvenient to use, uncomfortable or dangerous to wait for, delayed by other car traffic, and not going where you need it to anyway. If I had public transit options that actually served my needs, I would ditch my car in a heartbeat.

[@unrightist]

Yeah I would MUCH rather take a reliable, accessible bus to work or the store than have to sit in my stupid car and drive and have to pay attention to where I am going and buy gas and get maintenance etc...

[@ZaydaFleming]

Absolutely. If my local bus system ran every 15 minutes instead of every 30 I would take the bus to work consistently.

[@echojardini]

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[@ucantSQ]

This highlights how the "choices" we make are hardly choices at all. We are responding to our environments, over which we have little direct control. And I don't know what to do about that

[@BosseCory]

And if we all ditched our cars and took a fraction of what we regularly spend on them, and spent it on transit systems, think about how amazing they'd get!

[@lindsaykat3675]

I view it as: not eating beef is not a single decision, it's a decision you make every single meal. That makes it more difficult, but also more rewarding?

[@thefaboo]

Man that's so true. I've been a vegetarian for 23 *years* and still, occasionally, I think "Man, making dinner would be so much simpler if I just had steak." And it would! And it's not a *hard* decision not to at this point, but yeah, it's a decision every meal.

[@TheChristianna321]

Yeah but you make a decision about what to eat for every meal anyway. So maybe some times you do choose beef, but if you find delicious non-beef options and make sure they are easily accessible, it makes the non-beef choice the easy way

[@cbpd89]

Yesyesyes! I make the decision to make more vegetarian meals over all, but I don't make that choice every single time. If people wonder why drug relapses happen, this is why.

[@nessidoe8080]

​@@TheChristianna321Yes. I live close to a city (in Germany ) where it's relatively easy to eat vegetarian or vegan compared to 30 years ago when I quitted eating beef. It's not a big deal. Even fresh vegan cake and ice cream are easy to get. I'm very fortunate. Good luck to everyone finding their beef days 💚

[@kathrynlittle2523]

What are these “delicious non-beef options” that are “easily accessible” ???

[@alessandrosavino1431]

I want the "8 billion monkeys, with roads and hats" T-shirt. Now.

[@zolacnomiko]

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[@DingleFlop]

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[@KenKopin]

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[@tiffanymarie9750]

☝️

[@idiatico]

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[@kimberlyvance3131]

Beef days is a great concept. I've been restricting my meat intake for a very long time by trying only to eat it if I feel that it was raised ethically, but I recently started making an exception for that rule when food is offered to me as a gesture of hospitality. This only happens from time to time, and I've decided to start accepting the food, especially when the person offering is older or comes from another culture. It's more important to me to forge those social bonds and participate in the cultural ritual of feeding a guest than it is to maintain a sense of ethical purity of my meat consumption.

[@mariannetfinches]

Yes, I've started doing that too. Like you say it doesn't happen that often & I tend to just postpone the next meat day if it does. At the end of the day, I wasn't perfect before I ate that lamb. Just keep trying to do better where I can

[@caspenbee]

That cultural humility point is a good one. I suppose hospitality is where a lot of friction to vegetarianism comes from. And on the other hand, as a host it's always good to be considerate of your guests' practices and accommodate where you can. Being a good guest and good host is a part of many religions and societies, easy to see why :)

[@DaTimmeh]

Some people definitely take their ethics to an extreme. It's not like anyone is better off from you refusing the food (unless you don't like it and just aren't interested ofc). It's already cooked and any animal products won't return to life. It'll go to someone else, or get thrown away.

[@vigilantcosmicpenguin8721]

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[@whatevers9055]

I love how mad/passionate you are, we need more more mad/passionate people

[@joshuahillerup4290]

Not eating beef would be a lot easier if the costs to the planet for beef were priced in at the grocery store and restaurant

[@zacrintoul]

I would even just appreciate it quantified on the packaging... Like a warning label. It would be great if everything could have something like that, but that would probably be a headache trying to regulate. Maybe just pick a couple select areas.

[@lfior]

OH MY GOD YES it’s too cheap and that’s part of why it’s so bad for the planet and the animals, it’s the chicken and the egg except we know the chicken came first and we’re doing nothing about it

[@unhelpfulrevelations7989]

kind of like cigarette warning labels

[@derekboeshans8806]

At least for the US and Canada, we are kind of doing the opposite of that already. Our governments actively subsidize beef through agricultural funding. So, the starting point would be to remove the subsidies, and just the true economic cost of the meat would make a major shift in our eating habits. It's frankly obscene that our stores can sell beef per pound at not much more than the price of beans per pound, when you consider the actual costs of production.

[@-beee-]

As someone whose job title literally includes the words “emerging technologies,” I’m SO GLAD to see more discussion of social technologies. Language, culture, MEMES! These are potent, powerful tools we can and must harness, but also should be aware that we are subject to.

[@raeperonneau4941]

As a woman who loves efficiency, when I found out that the fastest, and largest, change to my carbon footprint was to eliminate, or moderate, my consumption of beef, it became a no brainer. This I can do.

[@cheetah100]

This is why this message is dangerous. Methane has a disproportionate effect compared to CO2, but it also converts to CO2 in short order. Fossil fuels that are burnt end up in the atmosphere virtually forever. The fight here is against fossil fuels, not cows. By all means be vegan, but don't think this is saving the planet.

[@burnyizland]

I like the idea of Beef Day and honoring the people and animals that go into getting food onto our tables. And of teaching our younglings traditions. These are good things.

[@Hou413]

If you like efficient, fast and large changes I would also recommend divesting from fossil fuels if you haven’t already! Switching to eco-friendly banks, stock portfolios, super/pension funds (or whatever your retirement savings are called in your country) is cited as one of the “positive tipping point” actions that can really accelerate the green transition, as our money will start going towards sustainable industries and away from polluters

[@Yixdy]

​@@Hou413sounds like nonsense green washing by capitalists tbh. Where can I read up more about this stuff?

[@raeperonneau4941]

@@Hou413 Thank you! I’ve been working in that direction for years. I also try to purchase goods from the most ethical source availible. Voting with my dollar has been enormously empowering and buying less is even more so. It’s amazing how little we really need.

[@Idefilms]

Hank, these nine minutes are a wild masterpiece of thinking complexly. The twist of "OF COURSE IT'S HARD" is something that I've been seeing in both of you guys' work for a while now, and is such a useful frame when we get frustrated with ourselves and other humans. Thank you for being here. 💚 (Also I'll never not laugh at a line like "Monkeys with roads and hats.")

[@aekaydubs]

I think you’re a wild masterpiece too

[@commmander]

It’s crazier that rearing animals doesn’t need to be an environmentally destructive process, it’s just way easier at an industrial scale. As a keystone species we know how to manage livestock in a way that is extremely positive for the environment. It’s more effort and thereby more expensive because we don’t calculate the real cost.

[@commmander]

Please make the treatment of the animals an aspect of Beef Day. Asking for a more humane, regenerative treatment of meat seems important and the increase in price may seem more justifiable for a special day. It may also behove you to choose a dates based on what would work for small farm holders; though that would probably depend interfere with traditional feast holidays.

[@morganweaver2639]

Love 100% of this. I have been thinking a lot recently on the positive social consequences of the technology of church. I am no longer a believer in Christian Faith, but I love the community and side effects of church. Beyond the beauty of "sacred days" as you said, there is something absolutely wonderful about gathering with a like minded community once a week and interacting in a large social setting. It fills me with joy each week to go to a place where many of my friends are and reflect on positive things about our community and try to make each other better. And I think very much this could be adopted into a secular mindset. There is so much more that you could gather and reflect on from a secular perspective. Everyone could collectively donate to have a shared playground and gathering place, and pay a therapist to just be around and talk to people and learn about new topics and share them with the community. A place where everyone could gather a challenge one another to grow, but instead of operating in the limited thinking of an ancient text, you strive for goodness through what science and data have shown us to be good for humanity. Secular church.

[@malkav81]

As someone who loves beef, I am ready to stop. Thank you for sharing how big this small feeling decision really is.

[@christopherbrand5360]

This is huge! I used to love rare steak but I was lucky and my college meal plan made it really easy to stop eating meat and learn plant-based nutrition when I left home (over 30 years ago). There are lots of fantastic resources out there and I hope you get support. Good luck!

[@joechip1232]

I think two great ways to support the decision to eat less or no beef and/or meat is to make sure you're replacing it with alternatives that are delicious and that replace the nutrition you were getting from making this change. I highly recommend trying out new recipes to find things that you enjoy and making sure you're still getting some of the key essential nutrients, particularly iron and B vitamins. (When I went vegetarian, I didn't realize that I had become anemic, which is not fun at all, but it was easily fixed by finding the right iron supplement and checking my levels again with my doctor.)

[@steggopotamus]

I find it hard to believe this will be easy. Milk consumption has been going down but the subsidies, haven't gone away. The government stockpiles cheese instead, yes including Obama's government. I think the first solution, is we need to cut those subsidies and put them somewhere else. I vote for putting them into helping farmers switch to heritage chickens (to preserve their genetic variety that corporate farming limits), and chia seeds, because they're a relatively eco friendly, plant based form of calcium (to make it comparatively as bioavailable we need to process it better, but it's not terrible). Next I need to know how ecologically expensive supplements are. So that would help us understand the actual costs. Of things like veganism. Like how for a while everyone thought plastic bags saved trees and vegans switched to pleather, but now we're all using paper again because of microplastics. And how we can't make paper from flax or hemp anymore because all our industry uses machines designed for tree paper... So... The answer is harder because our manufactured solutions are more ecologically expensive than we first think and our institutions heavily resist even more and can actively fight people's wishes.

[@cameron9830]

@@steggopotamus If all the beef farmers switch to raising chickens (or even 25% of them do) that may save a few hundred thousand wild animals from climate change but it will doom billions of additional chickens to a life of torture.

[@steggopotamus]

@@cameron9830 heritage chicken farms are like old timey farms. A definite step in the right direction. If we support more heritage farms we would have less severe bird flu epidemics and we would, have chickens that are part of the local ecosystem more. And again this is a proposed first solution. I could have said we replace all beef with chicken, but I split it between chia seeds because sure, we could get calcium from chicken bones, but let's start expanding other solutions. Also, I don't think were eliminating beef ever, not until we figure out what to do about pets, and people's love for leather. I'd rather someone wear a well cared for leather jacket than plastic made to look like leather (because micro plastics are bad for the environment). But we definitely don't need to rely on cow products as much as we do now. And next. We need a lot more effort towards ending corporate waste in the food system too. I forgot to mention that. (I deleted my first comment because I am in a bad mood today for other reasons, thanks anyone who had patience if you saw it)

[@sweetlows1]

as someone who has been vegetarian for about 10 years and lives near-ish to Vancouver, it's gotten vastly easier to be vegetarian around others. my friends have gotten used to accommodating if I come over for a meal either with a specific thing for me if it's burgers for instance, or with a meal that everyone has that is vegetarian (I never ask them to do this for me btw, I don't like messing with peoples meals, they do it to be nice). Restaurants now have 2-3 options at minimum whereit was 1 maybe 2 if you were lucky, even for salads which often had bacon or chicken thrown in somehow (which means it was pricier and had no subs just removal). that is not counting some cuisines that nautrally have more plant based options to begin with like Indian. I can't imagine just how tough others had it 20-30 years ago when they were seen as weird, tree hugging, hippies that " must just eat rabbit food".

[@JoannaPiancastelli]

I've been vegetarian all my life and trust me it was not fun being vegetarian in the 90s 😅 These days I find I don't know how to make a choice in a restaurant!

[@sweetlows1]

@@JoannaPiancastelli yeah! until more recently it made ordering super easy haha. while everyone is pouring over a menu I'm done in like 1-2 minutes once I find the one thing I can have. Now there are options again, and all that extra time getting wasted haha

[@mariannetfinches]

Not sure you asked, but yeah, it was nothing but omelettes as far as the eye could see. Your companions would get delicious vegetables in their Bolognese or chilli. All we had were eggs, & we were too ill informed to realise how miserable the poor chickens were. It gets easier every day and I couldn't be more grateful

[@lachouette_et_le_phoque]

Totally! I went vegan in the early 2010s and got very used to asking for adjustments in restaurants, like asking for just sides combined, or having the steak taken out of a meal. It worked well but the meals ended up a bit incomplete and I didn't like feeling like I'm a burden to the staff. Nowadays bigger cities all have at least a couple vegan options on their menu, supermarkets carry 15 brands of vegan yogurt etc. It's not just great for vegetarians/vegans but also for people with allergies! A good friend of mine in college was highly allergic to milk and egg protein, we bonded over baking vegan Christmas cookies and cooking together. She used to be allergic to soy too, which made growing up in the 90s hard for her, like "pasta and tomato sauce for every meal", and made her so excited about all the new options that opened up for her later.

[@burnyizland]

Yep. Live nearby and I'm not vegetarian or gluten-free or anything(except some allergies) but I appreciate how far we've come that it's expected - in the circles I run in anyway - to think to check with and then accommodate people. If you stop by my house unannounced you can forget it because I stock to suit my own taste, but when I throw my kid a birthday party dietary restrictions are part of the RSVP.

[@Symphing12]

Institutions are sticky and ultimately humans are stuck in our ways until something radical happens.

[@HashSl1ng1ngSlasher]

Humans are followers that ultimately do as theyre told. Its the institution that's the problem. If a mcdonalds hamburger was 9.95 instead of 4.95, consumption would drop, but so would McDonald's profits.

[@nateb7780]

I agree that institutions are sticky but remember how many cultural norms have changed in the modern day for better or worse. The rise of secularism, Smoking down, Trucks and SUVs up, alcohol down, and marijuana is increasingly recreational. Don't forget the power of incremental, evolutionary changes. It feels less attractive because we want things to change now, but incremental change still occurs without anything radical.

[@TheTanglyHen1026]

Until Caesar the ape rises up

[@Praisethesunson]

All those changes are just capitalist based forms of consumption.​@@nateb7780 The actual big changes were from mass collective action against private power or reactionary response to crisis.

[@joaogodoy6968]

Institutions are sticky but not solid. And that's precisely why they change: everytime someone stops to think about an institution, their response to the institution changes. Radical events can make lots of people rethink an institution in a short period of time, but this also happens gradually. The fact that pronouns are a widespread issue today didn't come from one big event, but the cumulative changes of thousands of individuals ❤

[@TheLaughingPanda]

I already basically don't eat beef except occasionally at restaurants because I'm too lazy and bad at cooking, but I'm with you in spirit! I also don't drink, and I definitely feel the weight of society pushing against that one. Even when people are chill about you making that choice, it's still part of society. Work social events are always "happy hour", everything is a microbrewery, most parties and celebrations are assumed to include alcohol, etc

[@matthewburton6360]

Hank made some really valid points. Truthfully I have some sort of meat at every meal, I was raised this way. It genuinely feels like I'm not having a proper dinner without some meat component. However, all the meat I get is from a local butcher, except on the occasions we get a fish. I wouldn't support the factory farms and evil practices of many large companies like Tyson and being able to get locally and sustainably sourced meat with no preservatives is just where I feel comfortable. However, eliminating plastic waste is something I've focused on doing a lot of this past year.

[@chickpeapeace]

99% of animal products come from factory farms pal

[@Idefilms]

It was a hard pivot _away_ from beef all along

[@zolacnomiko]

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[@anna._olsen_]

this is a niche reference and i love it

[@mariannetfinches]

The real beef was the rax we made along the way

[@quatrevingtneuf]

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[@luciabee]

HAHAHA

[@dcowan4705]

Registered Dietitian here. So, getting people to change their eating habits is hard. Like really hard. It’s possible, but it’s much more complicated than most people think. But it’s literally my job, and I love it. Telling people they shouldn’t eat something because it’s bad for their health, or the world, etc rarely works. Identity and motivation/purpose are big pieces of the puzzle. Think of religious dietary rules or people who identify with a certain food culture, or being vegan/vegetarian, etc. These populations have a much easier time following certain diets because it's part of their identity, and often their community too. They're following rather than going against their cultural norms. You have to have intrinsic motivation to change, and you have to overcome barriers to change, and it varies from person to person how hard that is based on a lot of complex personal and socioeconomic reasons. You might not even know what your personal barriers to change are. I try to help people figure this out, among other things. It doesn't surprise me one bit that we've made more progress driving electric cars or installing solar panels than eating less beef. Also, I'd love to see the latest numbers comparing corn fed to grass fed beef and greenhouse gases.

[@centaur7607]

Underrated comment, great points.

[@LivingNexus]

The identity thing is huge. It's so strange to me, the things people choose to identify with. For most, it's such a slippery thing that even getting someone to realize that x, y, or z thing is part of their self-image is really difficult. The common response is "I just like it, it's not that deep." I really wish people were taught more about psychology and identity at a young age, the way we teach young kids about germs now. When I was five years old I tripped and split the skin on my knee open, and for some reason it made a huge bubble of blood that just kinda sat on the wound. I had enough knowledge of germs at that age to think "Well, at least it won't get infected." Then the neighbor kid, who was my age or younger, thoughtlessly popped it, and I got really upset at him. I had no idea what germs looked like or how they worked, but I knew enough to get FURIOUS that my unexpected protection from them was ripped away so carelessly. I wish we had mental and emotional hygiene standards on the same level of our physical hygiene standards. Yeah, there will always be people who don't wash their hands because they are selfish and thoughtless and don't think the rules apply to them; but everyone pretty much agrees that it's gross not to wash your hands. If we had the same feeling towards managing our emotions and self-image, I think the world would be better off.

[@KikiAelita]

Fascinatingly, I feel the Greens doing this may facilitate exactly what you're saying helps. "Nerdfighters only eat beef on beef days!"

[@darcieclements4880]

I find it interesting he left dairy cattle out of the picture given the fact that they contribute kind of a ton as well. It's got to do with the biology of the animals more than how they're kept though. They're literally giant fermentation vats. I do wonder though if we could get people to switch to a different kind of meat that's less destructive and I am curious if emu or ostrich are better because personally I think they taste better and I know they tried to switch to these at one point in the past but the marketing campaign was terrible and mostly non-existent so if somebody could drive up a market for that over beef it could help a ton.

[@violetskies14]

This is extremely true. I have been a vegetarian my whole life. I have never eaten meat and that is SO EASY for me. I don't want to eat it, it honestly doesn't even smell like food. The only part of being a vegetarian that has ever been hard for me is dealing with the way people who are deeply defensive of their eating habits react when they find out. I think families are societies in miniature and not eating meat has always been the easiest choice for me because the family I grew up in mainly don't eat meat or are happy not to for family meals and that helped me ignore the norms of my society at large.

[@cereal3162]

I personally had no idea before you guys started talking about beef that its overproduction impacted the environment so negatively. thanks for bringing me and us awareness!

[@theforceisnotwithyou]

If you're interested in further reading, The Sustainability Secret is pretty interesting. It's a bit extreme in its messaging, and I did not go vegan or vegetarian from it, but it does highlight just how much the animal industry is so harmful to our environment.

[@Account81658]

Kurzgesagt has a video on the impact of meat, which discusses beef extensively!

[@cereal3162]

@@Account81658 thanks, I’ll check these out!

[@usa-ev]

If you want to stop it's not as difficult as you imagine check out challenge 22 take it from an ex-cattle farmer

[@Shinyshoesz]

Beautifully, beautifully put Hank. I 100 percent agree. I think that we have to open more doors -- small doors -- to move the cultural compass. You can't expect folks to just upend their entire cultural way, but it's much more viable to ask for a few days. It's a start, and we should celebrate increments because otherwise we discourage the change. That being said, as others have commented -- we also need some legislation or other means of curtailing corporate/conglomerate abuse as well!

[@vyssla]

I love this ❤. As I wrote in a paper: "Social rules are like gravity; sometimes it hurts people, but most of the time it keeps our feet on the ground and life as we know it wouldn't exist without it". If you want more on social network and diffusion of ideas I can recommend professor Fredrik Liljeros. On the topic of beef I like to think of it as cake: Special occasion, not every day, and make it a good one. No sad slab of stuff that tastes like nothing. Make it taste great. Make that life count for something. Appreciate it for it's rarity.

[@philalethistry7937]

I've been thinking about "social technologies" so much for the last six months but didn't have a word for it, thank you!

[@nateb7780]

Thank you guys for repeatedly creating new institutions and "cultural technologies" for the 21st century. I don't understand why more people with any form of power don't understand their own personal capability to improve things. You have both repeatedly used your influence to make the world a better place through organizations, entrepreneurship, and new ways to help humanity rise up to modern day challenges. You are an inspiration and I am so grateful to see you keep going.

[@Silrielmavi]

I'm so glad that Hank and John can now do longer videos without having to worry about the consequences 😁

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

The funny, funny consequences.

[@Silrielmavi]

@@TheDanishGuyReviews very true. A part of me misses the consequences... Though they got so good at avoiding them near the end that we haven't seen any for quite a long time

[@acookie7548]

7:47 he puts it so eloquently. i feel everyone's wanted this at some point, but never been able to say it outright. i appreciate you, hank!

[@CJordanNicholson]

Hank, this is so honest and beautiful. Thanks for being awesome.

[@AshArAis]

We've brought in laws to stop harvesting peat from our bogs. Yknow what happens now? It's imported on a big smoky ship from Latvia. With beef, we have the best possible environment for beef. It's all grass-fed, because Ireland gets so much rain. It's why Kerrygold is sold internationally. Our worry is if we reduce our herd, our beef will be imported from Brazil where the rainforest is destroyed to do so, or from somewhere that doesn't have the rain or grass we do. The ideal thing is if we have the least footprint while rearing cattle, that we should be put in charge of supplying it. If we do the good thing again and start importing inferior beef from an ex-rainforest on a boat that spews carbon, then our farmers lose their livelihood for no benefit to the climate. We also used to experience famines, so there's a fear of a loss of food security again. I used to have a restricted diet that if I limited further would've been dangerous. However we used to only eat a roast on a Sunday, and that was our beef day. Friday was fish. That is something we could easily return to. Step 1 is like Paul McCartney, ask people to try No Meat Mondays. Then you could try having veggie lunches and limit the protein to dinner. It is a gradual education of how to get those nutrients elsewhere. Those are my two cents: rear it where it has the lowest impact, and gradual diet education.

[@mmc7231]

🙌

[@caspenbee]

Amen, I think about this all the time. My home's climate is better suited to small-scale arid ranching than to growing water-intensive crops. It just depends on where you are. Local food is always going to be the better choice. That said I like the concept of Beef Days because it means I'll splurge and actually buy local beef when I get it, rather than the cheap stuff shipped across continents!

[@lorenabpv]

as someone from brazil, it also happens because agricultural incentives lead to corporate farms producing mostly for exportation. besides the environmental cost, it also makes beef a much more expensive kind of meat for brazilians. given that it's somewhat a necessity for it to stay cheap (a social construct, yes, but also cheap, nutritious food for poor communities). i barely ever eat beef, but also i can afford other food, something not everyone can, especially people with blue collar jobs. so the exportation incentive is bad all around.

[@darcieclements4880]

I would say the more ideal thing is to get people interested in eating things other than beef. No one is saying that we need to artificially decrease the herds, what they're saying is that we should try to get people to eat less of it which will then result in a lower demand which will then result in smaller herds. And for those who have been doing it for generations I would like to point to emu in ostrich which in my opinion are superior meats that will usually do quite well on the same land that cattle was on but much more efficiently. Yes there is a bit of a learning curve in switching species, but there's so many benefits to growing these animals and right now the demand so high and the supply so low that I can't afford either of them anymore 😢 I am well aware that they tried to convert once before and that it did not go well, but that was before the internet even existed and sometimes things come too soon. I think we're overdue to try again but this time with a proper marketing campaign. The fact that even though it's a red meat it doesn't have the negative health effects that are typically associated with red meat that comes from mammals is kind of a big deal, but also it tastes better it is much fancier. I would emphasize on the fancier part.

[@030elena]

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[@purplepebble3479]

“Never perfect, but better.”

[@travellinmark2745]

Food preparation is a technology too. People do not like to change technologies. To people who love eating beef, changing their food preparation technology is a 2001 a Space Odyssey "Sorry David, I can't do that" moment.

[@caspenbee]

True that! I keep thinking about burritos during these videos 😅 But I had one with tofu chorizo yesterday and you know what? Not the same but good in its own way. Might experiment with some msg in there next time. I bought some turkey bacon yesterday and we'll see how that goes too.

[@RobinNashVideos]

​​@@caspenbeeI'll say that tofu is an absolute carry when it comes to veggie meals! If you like cooking you should definitely try and learn how to use it too bad it's still kinda expensive where I live. But it's lovely! I got started thanks to a SeriousEats article titled "A Guide to Types of Tofu and What to Do With Each of Them". If you do decide to experiment with tofu, just read that and then start looking for recipes! Gl 🫡

[@burnyizland]

@@caspenbee I like turkey bacon. Just not because it tastes or feels or is anything like bacon except in shape though.

[@usa-ev]

Yes, and "you" can be the one to update traditional dishes into cruelty-free versions!

[@janeljohnson5833]

“…I am too aligned to cultural norms…” this is the most honest thing I’ve ever heard, and the answer to so many questions I’ve struggled with most of my adult life. Love the Green Brothers. Your parents did such a great job, and I thank them.

[@aureliegandour7084]

As someone who has struggled with disordered eating, having the focus and the title of the holiday being about food rather than whichever achievement we'll choose to celebrate is making it a significant hurdle for me to participate. I understand that you need to state clearly what the goal is here. But for those of us who are on the lifelong road of no longer regimenting what we eat according to arbitrary rules, this might come at a significant cost. For me if we focused on the things we decide to celebrate (ie scientific achievements, nerfighteria landmarks, solstices and equinoxes, or whatever else is eventually decided) rather than on the specific food, that also opens up the possibility to add more invented traditions to those new holidays. ie Christmas is not just about figgy pudding, it's also about presents, specific songs, specific decor choices etc. So people who don't partake in the food can also partake in other aspects of the holiday. Thank you for all you do! I really appreciate being a part of this community 💕

[@darcieclements4880]

No matter what approach we take not everyone will get to come along the way unfortunately. People are diverse and what speaks to them and what leads to concern is equally diverse. So glad to hear that you've recovered, eating disorders are scary. It is great that you brought that up as a concern to include in the planning.

[@TacticalFluke09]

woah - hearing even hank use "bus" as a synonym for "downgrade" really hammered in for me how america feels about public transport. I'm of course not complaining at all - as you say it's all norms - but this was a really wacky sentence for me to digest!

[@enshano1]

america's public transport attitude mimics their attitude towards the poor in general, unfortunately-that being poor is an individual moral failing, and that anything that benefits the general public *shouldn't* be used by anybody who wants to be "better" than the general public. individualism, and "meritocracy", are two more very very powerful societal technologies. worth remembering technology is morally ambivalent, and it's how we use it that counts!

[@robynnordstrom7799]

As someone who spent eight years mostly relying on public transit, I can understand why people consider it a downgrade.

[@diarawisteria2218]

I'd like to chime in that as someone who DOES use a bus system to go into a major city, it's often a sacrifice of extra time and comfort for most people. It usually isn't seen as 'reliable' transportation, because so many things can go wrong (if you even HAVE a good bus system), and so much infrastructure is built specifically around cars, which can make it hazardous (forgetting the word here) to pedestrians, buses, and cyclists. So in most cases, it IS a downgrade for most Americans. I personally use it because I dislike and can't really use a car.

[@johnsober]

He didn't use it as a synonym. He's simply pointing out to that to most people, they see it as a downgrade, and for them it is. It's not an issue of subjectivity, it is in most cases an objective truth. He may be of the same opinion, but he did not say as much. I live in a city where buses are really well run. Comparing it to my friend's experience in Atlanta, it's like night and day. Yet, a car would still be much more convenient for me, it's just that the difference it'd make in my life compared to someone in a city whose bus isn't very reliable is smaller. Btw I'm focusing on cities because I have little familiarity with less urban and rurual areas. When I'm looking for jobs or apartments while being a student, I have to limit my search to things that are on and around the busline. Because other than the fact that some bus agencies are terribly run, most places are exceedingly car centric -- it's an infrustructural problem. Compare this to cities or countries that intentionally wanted their city to be traversable via public transport, walking, and biking.

[@geeksdo1tbetter]

I missed this line, could I get a timestamp, please?

[@angelawesneski5029]

I have been on the precipice of changing my diet for climate reasons for a long time. For some reason, I haven't been able to actually commit to it yet. As soon as I heard you guys talk about beef days, something clicked on my brain. I'm all in. I don't know if it's because it's a smaller and less expensive commitment than full-on vegetarianism or because I don't actually eat that much beef on a daily basis or because I just respect you guys a lot and I want to continue to be an active part of this community. Thank you for positively influencing me!

[@zentouro]

i haven't eaten meat in nearly 2 decades, the nice thing is that the culture around it has gotten so much easier. you're right it used to be that other people's responses was the hardest, now it is more how so many places have more than one vegan/veg option on the menu and i have to actually make a decision.

[@RobertMilesAI]

Here's a social technology: You can raise kids that don't eat meat, while still eating meat yourself. My parents did that, they still eat meat, I've never (deliberately) eaten meat in my life. I'm happy and healthy and never had to make any noticeable sacrifice

[@Hou413]

Genuine question, since I’ve never heard anyone do this before: didn’t that ever feel strange or hypocritical for you at some point? Didn’t you ever wonder why they could eat meat but you couldn’t? And what was their response to that?

[@ILoveMeeses84]

My daughter has issues with meat (texture and flavors) so she became a vegetarian, myself and my other 2 kids all eat meat. We sometimes make meatless meals that everyone can enjoy together but I often just make two separate meals so people can just choose for themselves.

[@MarkThePage]

@@ILoveMeeses84 Thank you for making the effort to accommodate her instead of leaving her to eat cereal for every meal. My life would've been better with a parent like you.

[@danielblank9917]

Oh snap Robert miles, I didn't know you were veg

[@ILoveMeeses84]

@@MarkThePage I am sorry that your parents didn't know how to better accommodate your needs. That makes me sad to think about as a parent and just a human being.

[@eustacia03]

A thought related to the beef day idea - there's also value in changing the WAY we think about and consume beef. For exampole, when I go out to hot pot with a group of friends, we all eat some beef alongside the veggies and tofu and chicken and noodles and rice, but the amount of beef that comes to a table for 4 people is probably the same amount as comes to the table as a single steak at a steakhouse. Beef is a small part of the meal rather than the focus. Could we get people to see small amounts of beef mixed in with other things as a "normal meal" practice and reserve large chunks of steak or roast for special occasions?

[@SnazBrigade]

The way i see the beef conundrum is that it IS a sacrifice; a sacrifice that a lot of people have to agree to. However, solar panels and wind turbines and vertical farming and this that and the other thing ARENT sacrifices, or at the very least, are sacrifices to far less people. To use a more than a little hyperbolic analogy, another fast and doable way to reduce carbon output is to kill 3 billion people, but that’s not actually feasible for a multitude of reasons, very few of which are “because it’s too hard”

[@gangsta8929]

That feels like a bad example. That’s the exact brush the anti environmentalists paint us with.

[@usa-ev]

It's not as big as sacrifice as people think before they do it

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Do you also see quitting smoking as a sacrifice? Do you also see contributing to a 401K a sacrifice?

[@fugithegreat]

Unfortunately, a lot of things that are actually not that much of a personal sacrifice are marketed as such by lobbyists and ultra-conservatives. They also try to make you feel personally responsible for the loss of jobs in a harmful industry, even though there are always options to provide jobs in sustainable industries. Coal miners can be trained and placed in solar panel installation and maintenance, for example. And corporations and regulations really do make it too hard to live a zero-waste lifestyle. It´s nearly impossible to buy anything without packaging, even if you try to buy local or in bulk or get ingredients to make things yourself. We really need system changes to make things less of a sacrifice and more of a way of life.

[@sarar4901]

​@@chelseashurmantine8153I mean... They are, aren't they? Smoking makes people feel good in the short term. Money in a retirement account can't be spent now. The tradeoffs can be worth it without changing the fact that the change is a sacrifice of something.

[@debrachambers1304]

Most people don't even know how big of a difference beef makes in climate change.

[@bubblegodanimation4915]

The stupid 2.4% paper makes it worse.

[@GustavoCaucayo]

+

[@kathrynlittle2523]

Not just beef… but dairy cows and pigs and chickens. 😢

[@PrincessZeldaGirl]

Yeah we don't even have to quit meat. Literally just quit beef and it's 90% of the climate and environment benefit of going vegan... There are other reasons people do so ofc but I really wish we would just stop eating beef for the climate

[@centaur7607]

​@@PrincessZeldaGirlThat's interesting, I didn't realize that.

[@synthnymph]

Secular community and “sacred days” seem like some of the most important things we can be focusing on and building. As someone who was raised Mormon but is now secular, the thing that has created the biggest void in my life is the absence of community. To know the names and stories of your neighbors and to celebrate with and look out for one another provides a value that must be close to what it is all about, regardless of the context in which you believe this life is occurring.

[@PrestoJacobson]

I also was taught LDS Mormonism is the one true church, but since left after realizing the Rosetta Stone came out and proved the Book of Abraham translation wrong. Also, B.Y. was very racist, and misogyny abounds. Chris Shelton, Carah Nuancehoe, and more feel like a real caring community to me.

[@saikogrrl]

As a vegan myself I think you totally nailed it with what's hardest about being vegetarian or vegan! 🙂 For me the hard part was not changing the foods I ate, but how it interfered with social stuff and made events more logistically difficult. Being "different" to the norm, even when lots of your friends and family support you in that choice, is hard.

[@haileyoslund]

There’s an entire therapy modality revolving around exactly what you’re explaining: that change is really hard. It’s called the “Stages of Change” and it’s used in both therapy and medicine. It’s extremely useful because it acknowledges the barriers to changing and the opportunities or benefits it can provide. Thanks for the video!

[@bills8450]

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU for saying all of this. I've thought this way most of my life and it drives me absolutely mental that almost no one else does.

[@mantramoon9]

Hank, I'm sorry you've been feeling crappy but I love your passion! This has to be one of your most energetic videos ever.

[@jennifersaar1611]

It's definitely a worthwhile cause, and i can already hear people screaming, "First you came for our gas stoves, and now you want our beef?!" I'm glad you got your mojo back, Hank. We need it.

[@shellh929]

You've caught my attention. Where are gas stoves getting the boot?

[@usa-ev]

​@@shellh929new construction in NYC, iirc

[@usa-ev]

They already had this exact beef reaction around the same time as the stoves. Lol

[@I.am.SnailCake]

I will give up beef 100% before giving up my gas stove LOL

[@kaseyquickshot532]

I'm really glad this kind of take on society is becoming more popular, I feel like most people just take everything for granted around them and assume they are too small as an individual to do anything so they might as well give up and focus 100% on trying to enjoy life as it is whether that screws over future generations or not

[@thecuratorscorner3658]

I sat there stunned listening to this. Loved the insights. They can make us more aware of the possibilities when using tech of different categories. I'm pretty amazed all this high quality content seemed spur of the moment and was not written down.

[@MichaelADoesIndeedHaveACat]

the firetruck of despair is pointed straight at my face for sure

[@tridelta3]

I wasn't expecting veganism to be mentioned. Since you speak so positively about it, it would be neat if you gave it a shot and discussed your experiences with it. I made the change some time in mid-2016 and it's been mostly unremarkable. It has been kind of an a-hole filter at times, like the people who gave me a hard time about it were the same ones who were toxic in other ways anyway. I cut some of them out years later for other reasons and regret not having done it sooner. That created room for social energy and headspace I could give to better people, most of them are nice about it, some are interested and curious to learn more. Not sure if I'd call it a perk, but another weird outcome is that it has made choosing where and what to eat a lot easier by cutting down choices. I don't do it for health benefits, but even with junk food and snacking I eat a lot better than I used to anyway.

[@PrestoJacobson]

It's made eating enough harder for me. Where do you go out to eat, fast food preferably as I don't like spending all my money going to tipping places, as the owner should pay their workers.

[@tridelta3]

​@@PrestoJacobson Hey there. I'm in a bit of a privileged position because I live in a city that is vegan friendly. Almost every restaurant worth going to has at least one vegan option, or something that can be made vegan. I used to keep a list and got tired of updating it after about 200 entries. I have something like 5-10 I visit regularly, one of my faves is a family-run vegetarian Vietnamese place, pretty affordable too. To answer your question about fast food, it will depend on where you are. I'll assume North America, in which case I would recommend something like Chipotle, Taco Bell, Freshii, etc. I know people hate on Chipotle, but you get a lot of bang for your buck. Mexican places in particular are great for strong flavours and versatile dishes. Anything where you assemble a bowl and can pick out beans, hot salsas, rice, etc. will be satiating, tasty and pretty healthy.

[@evergreen3337]

Wow I didn’t realize we were making that much progress already

[@LeonardGreenpaw]

We arent. It was the pandemic that did it

[@ruadhbran]

I wish this was a more widespread piece of knowledge. Like, "good work everyone, we are *doing* it. Keep going, we need to do more, but we CAN!!"

[@anniexie6834]

My favorite part about this video is when I thought it was going to be about social systems and change and then you talked about hockey! As a fairly new hockey fan I am already made about some changes and the “frozen” pun was top notch. Thank you!

[@Goldberry]

You’re never over sincere, please always be this way. You and John are good role models for being sincere and earnest and genuine. Thank you for being you!

[@MechakittenX]

Due to how expensive meat became and how little income I make, I actually became a vegetarian with ocassional fish days. Tofu is so affordable!

[@julezthealien2467]

And so versatile!

[@jamesrunco6073]

Love the Graphs! Never thought of all those traditions as technologies. "What are we?! A billion monkeys with roads and hats?!?" lol 🙂

[@contrafax]

Nope, no tails,for the most part, we are apes.

[@zam6877]

Tails would be cool tho'

[@contrafax]

@@zam6877 if they were prehensile tails, hell yes!!!!

[@JustAnzia]

I want a tail ​@@zam6877

[@graysoncampbell3459]

Definitely my favorite hank quote

[@ValerieFulmer]

Another great video!! Asking people to sacrifice something is understandably unpopular. Unless they see the proof that doing so will help humanity, including themselves. And even if they see the proof, they may feel it’s not worth the sacrifice. The anti-smoking movement took some time and lots of money for ads, and lots of money for legitimate health studies. As weather patterns continue to change and become more intense, and as it affects farming and air-quality for the worse, perhaps more people will come around. Sadly though, it may end up being too late.

[@jchenco]

excellent point about social barriers being the hardest part of changing one’s diet

[@danisaur6487]

Funilly enough, I have the opposite problem at the moment. I was a vegetarian for 13 years until I found out I was severely anemic and iron and b12 supplements weren't cutting it. Now I actively need to force myself to make the decision to eat beef at meals even though I don't really like to eat meat since my body really only absorbs those vitamins well from meat.

[@bubblegumplastic]

This same thing happened to me! Developed severe deficits that didn't respond well to supplements, now I plan in steak whenever the exhaustion starts setting in

[@Angela-kr8cx]

Lol the game of hockey seems frozen 😂

[@Account81658]

I've been vegan for 6 years, and I think people underestimate how making different decisions gets incredibly less difficult once you're getting used to the change. Being vegetarian is easy in most (wealthy) places once you're used to it. In fact, it doesn't require ANY extra effort after a while, also not in willpower

[@Praisethesunson]

Avoiding corporate propaganda for meats is the hardest thing for me. Otherwise you are 1000% right on the money.

[@mariannetfinches]

Yes! All about building habits. Same with not using Amazon. Once you hit your flow it's virtually no effort

[@waffles3629]

Yep. I'm not vegetarian, but I rarely eat meat (mostly when it's served to me) and it's really easy to make yummy nutritious meals without thinking about it. Most of my meals are grab whatever vegetables are in season, on sale, I'm just really wanting that week, etc, tossing in a protein (assuming it's not high enough in protein already), and finding some flavor to put on it.

[@dreamingbutterfly1]

That's been my experience, too. Once you've established it as a habit, it mostly runs along on its own momentum. The hardest parts are when traveling, when I'm outside the usual context of my habits.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Facts.

[@brookeworley5140]

7:33 I feel this so hard...any time something weird happens with my body, I play a game of "is this a new chronic thing, is it a symptom of my MS, or is it a temporary thing caused by my lifestyle" 😂😅 like, sometimes i just don't sleep great, but the thought always lingers that it could be more serious

[@crains8087]

+

[@waffles3629]

Same. Like is this my chronic migraine messing things up or is it just Tuesday? 😂 I've unfortunately had to accept ignoring potentially problematic warning symptoms because otherwise I'd be in the doctors office every week.

[@emmasmits5664]

Just wanted to say I was at the grocery store today and almost bought ground beef then remembered your and John’s videos on beef days… And got ground turkey instead!

[@rpt0rman]

Hank! This is unrelated to the video but I wasn’t sure where to give this feed back. I love the new packaging with awesome socks club. I had a few pairs get holes not being careful getting the tinny plastic pieces out of them. And the new all cardboard holder is amazing. Thanks for bringing such goodness and realness to the internet !

[@penina8438]

It is currently the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, sometimes jokingly called “the cheesecake holiday” because we (a typically lactose intolerant people) are supposed to eat a ton of dairy. “Beef days” absolutely sound like something we’d do. We have a lot of rules around animal products (possibly as a way to ensure we are taking care of the animals around us and aren’t over consuming) and having fun with by associating foods with certain holidays and festivals it makes it easier to follow.

[@geeksdo1tbetter]

So cool! I wonder which of the current Jewish holidays most easily fits with Beef Days? My fav would be New Year Of The Trees (Tu Bishvat, in my fuzzy memory), coz Beef Day are a benefit to the environment.

[@caspenbee]

It would be great if a Beef Day was on a jewish holiday! Then we can all celebrate with each other. 💛

[@spark_matter]

the kosher rules are my fave example of something that makes no sense till you think about it (e.g. avoiding the slim possibility of the barbaric concept of boiling a calf in its mothers milk makes so much more sense then unexplained "no cheeseburgers")

[@tiberiuswolf8259]

I love that twice a week I have the opportunity to think really deeply about humanity and myself, while having just enough direction towards what exactly to think deeply about so I don't have an existential crisis. Also, I love your button-up! Where did you get it?

[@usa-ev]

But will you ever change?

[@addictedtoreading]

Never perfect, but better

[@MarkThePage]

"Plenty of vegans and vegetarians will tell you that the harder part of their diet... is dealing with other people's responses to it." 100%. I've had to sit through so many awkward dinner events with no vegetarian options that now I just won't attend any. Even if I try to just exist quietly, many people have taken offense at my different preference and tried to change me, including through deception. To me it seems like such a bizarre thing to exclude someone over.

[@erinstohlmeyer1714]

I am so enjoying this continued conversation between Hank/John/Nerdfighteria. I am also dealing with some days of brain fog due to high stress and maybe some depression. This is a great conversation to help me feel a little better and think a lot about something completely different for once.❤ I’m so glad we’re all here. DFTBA

[@KathyTrithardt]

Vegan here - can confirm, the hardest part is people who oppose me being vegan (and a second is how vegan things can be more expensive than the meaty/dairy alternative).

[@byal9000]

I became a vegetarian 5 years ago when I was 35, and to this day my dad obsesses over me not eating meat. Any time I have literally any health issue, he'll say that I wouldn't have it if I ate meat again (never mind the fact that vegetarian diets are considered to be healthier). Another issue is wondering if there'll be any food at a get together that I can eat. A couple of times it has been exclusively meat dishes, and I just don't eat. It's definitely the social parts of being a vegetarian that are the hardest for me. I think the second hardest thing is traveling. Sometimes you just end up eating fries or chips or something as a meal because there's no vegetarian options around. This is more of an issue in the midwest where I live than other places.

[@KathyTrithardt]

@@byal9000 I definitely relate to the trouble of traveling. Sometimes it is amazing, and sometimes there is nothing I can eat.

[@CarolinaGothic35]

“Cringe must be overcome” is so real. For what feels like years now, Every time I feel myself starting to tamp down my joy about things I think about John talking about being “unironically enthusiastic about things” (which at this point might not have even been the quote but was definitely the vibe) and it’s been genuinely so helpful in my life.

[@Storm-jn5ct]

I never thought about eating Beef as a cultural thing, but that makes so much sense

[@eliedgecomb4903]

Love you, Hank. Your contribution is always thoughtful and appropriately complex. And sometimes even still a little silly, my favorite part. ❤

[@KafkaShoppe]

You’re such a breath of fresh air, Hank: every time.

[@loganbohlinger8692]

This is fully correct. After becoming vegetarian it became really clear to me that there’s a whole complex of social mores that make meat-eating normative, and the dealing with that is the only hard part. We’ve convinced ourselves that meat is an essential part of human nutrition and culture, and it’ll take some actual hard work to reframe our relation with non-human animals from being one of commodity consumption to one that is more humane and ecologically conscious.

[@SarahWatchesStuff]

I actually found that part easy. What finally broke me of my ability to stay vegetarian after 6 years was just sadness that I wasn't enjoying food anymore and that the stress of limiting myself when so much else sucked was no longer worth it to me. 🫤

[@loganbohlinger8692]

@@SarahWatchesStuff huh, interesting. Maybe I lucked out in that regard. After like 6 months I lost all desire to eat meat, and the handful of times I’ve eaten meat in the years since weren’t particularly pleasant for me. But I totally get the rigorous self-policing and self-denial becoming too taxing for your well-being and happiness. It’s cool that you made the change in earnest in the first place and kept it up for so long, but it’s also commendable that you knew where your limits were. Big ups to you 👍🏻

[@usa-ev]

​@loganbohlinger8692 maybe check out the dairy and egg industries - it's arguably as bad or worse

[@davidharris8496]

With all the references to "path of least resistance" here in this one, what are the odds that John tells the Moth Joke on Tuesday?

[@ClimateN00b-ik2po]

Hi Hank!

[@yoyolinn]

Social technologies are so important! Also sending you all the love through the weird depressive, brain fog phase of recovery, Hank! ❤

[@Atrohumter]

As a long-term vegan I will say you hit the nail on the head with the societal pressure thing. Also, you can do it! Stop eating beef!