Sonic's Boost Formula is GENIUS! But...

[@mr.walters7864]

Boost is my preferred gameplay style, if done right

[@hereforonereason5820]

The thing about the boost is that it TOOK OVER what Sonic was, instead of adding on top of it. You make the comparison to the addition of the homing attack in Sonic Adventure, and you're RIGHT, because in Rush, the boost is additive, it's built on TOP of Sonic's existing movement mechanics, which underlie the whole thing. You can play Sonic Rush mostly the same way you'd play Sonic Advance, which uses similar physics and controls, down to the trick system, which has been updated from the Advance games. It's not QUITE classic Sonic physics, but having seen the modding community do just this, you could easily add it to the games with those physics and have it still work perfectly. It's an addition to the core gameplay of running to build inertia and interacting with ramps and slopes and loops and so on, not a replacement of those things. Contrast that with the day stages of Unleashed, what we think of as the boost nowadays, which were built from the ground up with the boost as the core mechanic replacing all else. Now things have switched roles, where inertia/slope physics play a role, it's additive to the boost mechanics of boosting, drifting, sidestepping, jumping, sliding, and stomping, more about game feel (especially at low speed) than playing a central role in control and level design. No part of the game is designed to be played at low speed for a long time, and when it is, it's because it's a 2D section, you're ALWAYS supposed to boost in these games, because that's the most fundamental, core mechanic, as opposed to building inertia and rolling, which is what used to be the core. The thing I always ask regarding the boost games is "why do loops exist?" Seems like an odd question, this is a Sonic game, of course loops exist. But ask yourself why Sonic games have loops? When did loops first show up in Sonic, and why? They were introduced in Sonic 1 as an interactive set-piece for Sonic's physics gameplay. They exist in Sonic because Sonic 1 was built around inertia, around physics platforming, and that informed world design on both an aesthetic and mechanical level. So why do loops exist in Sonic Unleashed? Is it because they were a natural fit for Unleashed's drifting, sidestepping, race car gameplay, or is it because this is a Sonic game, and Sonic games have loops in them? If Unleashed was the first game in the series, the first Sonic the Hedgehog game, would the designers have even thought to add loops and corkscrews in the first place? Or would they more likely have come up with obstacles and set pieces more specifically designed to compliment those mechanics. And this applies to a ton of stuff. The ring based health system exists because Sonic's physics make players more inclined to hit obstacles and kill pacing, so they needed to punish mistakes without being too unforgiving with deaths, but the boost kills enemies, and its gameplay doesn't require deft navigation between tightly spaced enemies and obstacles like a platformer. Boost pads and scripting are a holdover from when physics Sonic needed help getting through loops and twisty geometry in 3D, but the boost itself doesn't need them to force the player on an upward path, that speed is automatic. All over the place, you can see where the transition to the boost as Sonic's core mechanic system forced them to hodgepodge together solutions created by setting these games in a world fundamentally built around different mechanics. Sonic is a rolling physics game, so there are loops and ramps and corkscrews, so Sonic's world has those things in it, canonically and aesthetically, removing them would be like removing pipes and blocks from Mario, but they don't suit the gameplay that came from Unleashed without lots of duct tape. Rush handles them fine, because the physics underlying the boost works mostly like the Advance games, which were also designed to deal with loops and the crazy platforming geometry of Sonic's world. They sort of got themselves stuck, because these are Sonic games, fans might react badly if you make a world without those things (as we saw with Frontiers' overworld design, one of its recurring critiques among the community), but you kind of need to to bring the best out of that gameplay without compromising on its potential. You could fix basically all of Sonic's major game design problems by putting whatever crazy new gameplay gimmick like combat or cyloops or whatever on TOP of existing inertia based rolling physics gameplay. Frontiers is closer than 3D Sonic has been in a LONG time, but its additions that address these issues on any level are literally tacked on after the fact in DLC. And I wanna be clear, I don't hate the boost games. I like the boost games, but I think they have fundamental issues that literally cannot be fixed without bringing back Sonic's physics based approach to movement. If they weren't Sonic games in the first place, if they weren't tied to the legacy of Sonic and his unique gameplay and level aesthetics, I think they'd have been quantifiably, measurably better. As they are, they can never truly compete with "King of Video Games Mario" in terms of quality like their predecessors, in my opinion.

[@dave9515]

The adventure games and even most classic games after STH haven't been what you describe here at all. Boost is just continuing the direction that the adventure formula was headed in. Also you got the wrong idea still. Why was spindash added? To make going through slopes and uphill easier. Why was homing attack added? To make it easier for players to hit enemies in a 3d space. What does this tell you? They are focusing on making sonic appeal to masses and as a result don't really wanna dive into what made sonic unique in the first place as it wouldn't be liked by the masses if you had to earn speed react properly or else suffer or die and there was lots of deph and interactions in the level design.

[@windy3935]

@@dave9515 That and people (on both sides tbh) are always coping with the whole transformation/reboot aspect with iconic game series. Long ongoing game series usually never stay consistently the same. There are plenty of great and perfect examples, but for now I can say look what Tomb Raider and God or War are nowadays vs their original incarnations. It's not the same, as with Sonic. Sonic keeping remnants components of what the series was first known for isn't always an immediate con or whatever. (Not saying/implying the more modern stuff is better, just making a point.)

[@dave9515]

@@windy3935 You are spitting facts with that. I think its fine for games to change but if you remove something you should try to replace it with something as fun. Also The core identity of a series should stay intact when its changed. I think a lot of companies tend to struggle with both these things in general. I also think that sometimes companies chase mainstream too much and end up sacrificing a series "soul" if you would put it one way. Sonic has not ever not been in an identity crisis since the jump to 3d.

[@LucidTUN3S]

I agree 1000%. *Lots* of _nuance_ that made Sonic Rush so damn good to even WATCH was lost in current boost games. I actually mentioned this in your previous Rush video. Frontiers at least remembers about there being a trick system, but I feel all these current boost games' common flaw are their meter management. It's just too easy to keep the "boost flow" going these days... to the point that it isn't even a flow anymore. It's just what you have to do, which is why I just call it a glorified OP Run button that just encompassed EVERYTHING that you have to do. It makes most of Sonic's other movement kit useless. Seeing people say the Boost makes the spindash / dropdash / air dash / power ups / enemy placement and usage _useless_ while straight faced like there's no problem with how OP it became makes me sad. As opposed to Sonic Rush where the boost was more supplementary to the rest of Sonic's movement kit. You still had to Spin Dash and Roll where there're better situations for them, the Boost wasn't the end all be all, the boost meter didn't linger for minutes nor did every single non-involved action give instant juice to the meter unlike the current boost games. You HAD to maintain flow with tricks, ramps, and knowing the level design to best save your meter elsewhere because the boost goes down in mere seconds if you don't maintain it right (unless you get that max tension bonus which again comes from knowing where they are within the level design and maintaining them). And this was all from me observing how people play the rush games, while I myself have never played the game while being very familiar with the current Boost era games. A change in the formula needs to happen.

[@jaysolaris06]

This is a great analysis of how Rush handled the boost. The fact that this is all from your observations is really cool and I definitely agree with your point. Boost meter management has been kinda all over the place ever since Unleashed and it is something that needs to be worked on. Interestingly enough, the gameplay for Shadow Generations shows that only ring energy refills the boost meter, enemies have no effect on it. I like this change, but it comes back to the issue of how meter management is going to function, especially since it's working off the boost moveset. Maybe the Doom Powers could play a role in that, but only time will tell.

[@dave9515]

I do agree but spindashing since it was invented has been nothing more than an op boost button that took no resources nor had downsides. Only time i think it did was like 3 and knuckles due to how they did level design and i think it might have also been nerfed after STH2?

[@LucidTUN3S]

@@dave9515 for speed running it took a lot of practice to get Perfect Spindashes down. I love that aspect of the classics where there was high execution / technical barriers to get very good times. There always could be new uses for spindashes tho. I prefer using anything ball form related than just plowing through everything mindlessly with a single button. If I had my way I would balance Sonic’s kit to where all have their purposes.

[@sikosonix901]

While I agree the 3D boost games definitely lost a lot of what Rush did, that's not inherently a bad thing. Just because Rush, Rush Adventure, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, Frontiers, and Shadow Gens all play differently despite having the boost, doesn't necessarily make one bad and one good. It's more so different interpretations. I think there's value in each one. What all the games do: - Quick reaction time - Memorizing to master levels - roller-coaster like level design Game specific aspects: - Rush has more meter management, and a lot more style integrated into gameplay to help with flow - Unleashed has much more more expansive levels, with alternate paths and harder obstacles - Colors boost is more of a reward for playing well and skillful Wisp usage, you won't be holding it down like Rush and Unleashed - Sonic X Shadow Generations is literally just Unleashed again. So basically, I'm saying that the boost formula hasnt lost anything, more so it's changed for the game it's used in. Again, that's not a bad thing. The only thing that matters is that it's a good use. I understand that you may miss the original form, but that's not a reason why the boost isn't good anymore. Sometimes, change is good. It's hard to part ways with the original version, but you can still appreciate the new one. Also, notice how I didn't mention Frontiers. I think we all know why. I personally like cyberspace, but even I can acknowledge that's not a good use of the boost formula. Maybe, after Shadow Generations, the Frontiers sequel will have better cyberspace.

[@RaiginAnimator]

As someone who played rush you never really use the spindash The meter management was more of a factor in rush but in both the generations games Boost was something you could keep up with as long as you payed attention to Not as hard but the level Desighn was like 10x better (bottomless pits everywhere combined with Blistering speed and no screen space are not a good combo)

[@Hypertonick]

I think I agree with your take on the boost formula, bc I grew up with it and found it accessible and just overall fun. It’s definitely something I don’t want to be disbanded as a gameplay style, but like how you said there has been some downgrades that can be improved upon once more . I recently discovered theres mods for frontiers that let you air trick in cyberspace, and im just like damn that would be fun officially

[@KidEDarus]

My honest opinion, I think they really nailed the boost formula in Generations. It had something for everyone. The feel of high speeds and platforming. They missed the mark when forces came out. Frontiers improved a lot but I agree with Mardic. It's still missing that Sonic Style.

[@TheMrPasquale]

Frontiers video soon?

[@SonictheHammons]

We're getting a trilogy let's goooo!!! But yeah, the simple fact is that most people are just bad at Sonic games (Like you said it's a learning curve). Never really thought about it before but you're right, the boost gameplay does seem to just click better with the masses than the other gameplay styles we've had. Hopefully we'll gett to see them implement the style and sauce that's been missing for so long. So far it feels like Sonic Team has been taking baby steps to just that and we might even be getting a taste of what they can really go in Shadow Generations. But with a bigger budget and more devs, I'm hopeful that we can get there soon

[@lazymorris5293]

I grew up on boost Sonic, so I will always fight for it. I just think Sega doesn’t remember what made it fun and exciting. With Shadow’s gameplay and even the later half of Frontiers, I think they started to use the boost in as a run button but just really fast.

[@chiptunepacifist5729]

I’d argue that boost used to be a lot less accessible than the adventure games. Stuff like Unleashed & Generations are constantly throwing new challenges at the player which requires them to pay attention to what’s coming up ahead akin to the classics. Colors was the first game to really rework the formula into something more accessible with much wider 3d spaces and a strong emphasis on 2d blocky design and forces just took all the challenge out of what was once a gameplay style that really was all about level mastery. Frontiers is a right step in returning to that style but i’d argue it has a lot more in common with the adventure games, especially the final horizon levels (also makes sense since it literally uses adventure level design oop)

[@nightlydata2181]

I like CS but my main gripe is that it DEF should've controlled more like the colors pure boost wit tricks & all since frontiers OZ style has the potential to be a REALLY good way to mix more open gameplay wit more linear stuff

[@DylanofScreenTime]

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYIN! Rush did so many things right with it's implementation of the boost and a lot of it has become more restrictive over the years, but with the Open Zone format, it can SO EASILY be switched from a car racer to something like Tony Hawk. Pulling off crazy cool maneuvers with rocking music in the back-like we could just mess around in those zones for HOURS not really doing anything, but we can't, cuz it's not quite there yet. Give me the trick system from Rush Let me run on water Let the traversal encourage stylish but fluid movement between terrain, rails, ect. And give me Photo Mode ALL of those combined will make me so happy

[@spritvio639]

My favorite implementation of the Boost Formula is in Sonic Colors. I really enjoyed how nerfed the system was compared to the other games. I know that's a hot take but I find it more appealing to have a system where you start off empty and have to sort of look at the level for where to get the boost, use the boost effectively to save as much as possible, while still going as fast as possible. I know the level design is a big point of contention these days. But personally, I don't really see it. Maybe it's just because I've played the game more than most people but the level design is generally fine with the exception of maybe 3 levels. Sweet Mountain Act 4 and the obvious spring levels. But even then, in terms of what the other games ask you to do in general they're pretty tame.

[@partyjams]

Will part 3 complete the triology or set up for part 4? Can’t wait to find out

[@dave9515]

I think its much more infuriating that this keeps happening. Formulas always lose their sauce in favor of accessibility or scrapped if one bad game. Boost formula was still good in unleashed but each progressive game the formula became less and less until it was stripped of everything that made it stand out in the first place which is where are still today. Rush trick system being abandoned once the formula went 3d was the worst decision for the formula outside of the cuts from level stuff like unleashed QTE pads, drifting yes because there still is nothing that replaces it, and the meter management system. The mechanical nuance and deph has been lowered since rush and unleashed just to make the formula more accessible and easy for people to pick up and play and has made each game less fun than the previous.

[@blackietherock]

Since the open zone formula is here to stay, I think these next games would benefit better from momentum-based/pinball physics-based gameplay for player expression to travel the zones while taking advantage of the terrain, enemies, walls, loops, ramps to do that. But the boost could be implemented as the Boost Mode from Sonic Advance 2. - Sonic would need to maintain his speed for a certain period of time without getting interrupted to acess it

[@blackietherock]

While for the traditional boost we're used to... It doesn't need to simply disappear. Move this style for the small scale/spin-off games! Like Shadow Generations! And it would take less time to make. Since this gameplay is so accessible and focused on speedrun/replayability, challenges and collecting emblems to perform better.

[@ApexPredator1000]

I loved the boost when it was introduced, but I think it's from being more of a narrative/world fan than the gameplay?Of course, gameplay is important and I love the adventure style too (I grew up with those). But Sonic being able to go SONIC just felt so right, and add in the chaos of his force of speed blasting through enemies was so satisfying. But I do agree that it's definitely in need of tweaking. There's the momentum argument, and then the adventure style had the potential for more variety. How do you get one without sacrificing the other? I do think Frontiers has started on the way to it; more high speed reaction based levels, mixed in with an open zone setting that allows for combined boost and momentum gameplay. But then you also got to enjoy boost track bosses as well as the more adventure style arena types Acheiving top speed should be a combination of the 2; boost shouldn't be the sole answer to reaching certain locations. Then, of course, add that style; trick systems, momentum based bouncing off vertical surfaces (saw in a recent fan game?), boosting on an upwards slope should launch you whilst momentum alone just carries the course and spindashing sticks you to the surface with your momentum It brings us to the place where a new style can be more easily drawn up - all the pieces are here now, where before Frontiers we still needed to figure them out

[@johnathonturner2279]

So your main complaint is that they aren't making players button mash to fill the gauge?

[@Mashu-tw7yf]

You know i think the problem many people have with it is that it's just too fast. Granted frontiers did somewhat solve that problem but the majority of boost games come with somekind of slower gimmick to ease of the pace of the insane speed. A perfect example of this is Generations. The game while good is short due to both sonics going fast. The Adventure games were based more around exploration. But what i think is there is a way to merge the two somehow

[@jaysolaris06]

During the time frame between Forces and Frontiers, I really wanted Sonic to do a mix of Adventure and Boost gameplay. To me that was the logical way forward. I'm happy Frontiers is putting us on that path, but I do agree with you and many others that something needs to change in the way the boost is handled. Fadel brought this up in one of his vids and proposed the idea of the boost working like how it did in UnWiished. That idea really had me thinking deeper about it because if the boost is limited then I feel that could lead to more player expression. Knowing the right time to use it in tandem with a spindash jump or even keeping the traditional reaction-based gameplay to get to new areas in levels could be really fun. This could possibly push the style aspect too because players might utilize it differently in whatever level they're playing. Although, I'm not too sure how it would affect accessibility though.

[@Scroteydada]

I think the way Colours made you have to be careful where you boost was more interesting than mashing a trick button. Advance 2 and 3 did tricks better

[@Mardiculous]

@@Scroteydada I sort of agree.. I’ll talk about this when I do part 3

[@KaleSTUDIOS]

YES THANK YOU

[@FowaJCT]

I always loved the Boost games way more than the Adventure games, but especially after Forces, everyone is saying to just go back to MOMENTEM, and you couldn't disagree. And then Kishimoto after his whole Twitter arc, said he'd just drop the boost in the next game. It made me and other fans mad.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

I love the boost formula. Generations is my favourite game, but it's time to ditch the boost

[@FowaJCT]

@Sydney_Angelyt The problem with that is that we never really evolved the formula. It just progressively got worse and worse. We technically had 5 boost games, but Colors was more it's own thing, Forces was a nothingburger, and Frontiers was just slightly better Forces and was just a run button.

[@johnathonturner2279]

@@FowaJCT It did not progressively get worse. Unleashed did it well, Colors kinda had it's own style, then Generations came and did well, then Forces dropped the ball. Frontiers arguably does it's own thing.

[@FowaJCT]

@@johnathonturner2279 That's really what I'm getting at, if we exclude Colors, Forces, and Frontiers, we only have 2 3d boost games.

[@johnathonturner2279]

@@FowaJCT How does any part of my reply line up with what you are saying? In fact, what point are you even trying to make? And why do Colors and Forces get excluded? One had a different direction with level design and control while altering how you fill the meter, and the other is generally considered mediocre. Both technically ARE Boost games. At most, the only game I'd fully consider to not be in that style is Frontiers, because the way the Boost is implemented in that game functions entirely different from previous games.

[@jarkspore]

Talking about Boost is tricky, because I feel like a lot of the fan base doesn’t say what they actually mean. They use “linear” like it’s a four letter word (even though that’s just how you make a good action platformer), and curse Chaotix missions in the same breath. I guarantee you, few of those people like Knuckles levels or Amazing Arena Zone. Further more, I’d argue the somewhat-sprawling level designs of the Genesis games - always the golden standard for level design - were way less an artistic decision and more a corporate one. Sonic wasn’t made to be a “good” game, it was made to be spectacle. I’m not dunking on these games, I love Sonic 1, CD, 3K, SA1. But I recognize their rough edges and the context of their creation. And I absolutely agree with Iizuka’s old statement regarding SA3, that they don’t want to “go back” and just do what the fans want. Especially nowadays, creative autonomy is at an all-time-low, and I always want developers to do what they want, what they’re passionate about, and not just following poll results like a checklist. It’s why I kinda emotionally roll my eyes at stuff like Emerl coming back, and Generations as a whole. I don’t know what my point is lmao

[@JamoART]

Do you feel like you get to say what you want to say with the time limit being so strict?

[@Mardiculous]

@@JamoART I think it makes what I say concise and more of an over view, so as time goes on I can go into specifics in future parts

[@taecampus]

I wish, I WISH we got an original game after Generations with the boost formula and platform with the quality of Generations... just with original level designs 😅 I hope that makes sense 😅. I was incredibly let down when they changed up the formula again, to come back to it but have it completely watered down 😢

[@petergriffinsbrother2499]

Part 3 lets gooo

[@CMJ321]

i prefer adventure

[@Vantoxify]

with every new boost game, it became easier most of the time. Colors is def way easier than Unleashed, Generations I would say is easier than Unleashed but not Colors. Forces is easier than all of em. I would say Frontiers Cyberspace has more challenge than Forces but what made Frontiers Cyberspace easy is Sonic's slower speed which was the slowest he ever was in a boost game. That's another thing to bring up, Sonic's speed got slower with each game to make it easier for casuals.

[@ICader7194]

Ridivelous

[@pumpkintron8969]

Boost and exploration based gameplay should coexist and not be just one thing

[@Tailsfly593]

Boost is the best Sonic formula

[@kevin_kevinson]

Sonics styles been missing for quite some time I agree

[@SAMURAIPACK456]

Boost formula>>>> adventure formula anyday and everyday

[@blackietherock]

classic formula but in 3D while using elements from boost and adventure games >>>> (they still haven't done it)

[@JustAnotherMike_]

You hit on something at the end The tricks missing from Colors DS is the sole reason it's by far my least favorite of the "Rush Trilogy" With the further improved level design from Rush Adventure and all of Colors' good aspects taken (wisps, level themes and music); it should be amazing. But it's just not. Losing those tricks gets rid of so much style, as well as mechanical interest. Not being able to build up boost with the tricks, trying to get a super high combo or being able to use the directional dashes to get to new areas left Colors DS feeling like such a step backwards and made the game pretty boring to me Rush Adventure is my favorite btw. Such a marked improvement over Rush in terms of level design, I find Marine endearing, and the beach theme and OST are severely underappreciated

[@JustAnotherMike_]

Also, yeah. I got Frontiers a couple days ago and I just completed everything on the first two islands. So far, my favorite things have been the Action Chain Challenges and speedrunning the Cyberspace levels. Goes to show you that both styles can mesh together in one game And while everyone having similar complaints (like the jump's poor lateral movement, re-used level themes, and unnatural platforming feeling detached from the maps themselves) wouldn't normally mean much to me either way, in Frontiers' case; it makes me excited! Because Kishimoto has engaged with, paid attention to, and even used the DLC to address the criticisms given on social media. Because he's shown so much care, I'm super excited to see what the next major game turns out like with his vision and fan feedback taken into account. ESPECIALLY since Sega just upsized Sonic Team! Frontiers feels a lot like a tech demo in a *lot* of ways, but weirdly, rather than being disappointed; I'm looking forward to seeing the final result of all this R&D Frontiers is like a B tier game to me. But I'm very hopeful that the next will be a solid A tier and just maybe will give the Adventure games a run for their money After pre-ordering and feeling burned on Colors Ultimate and Origins, I'm just amazed Frontiers has me hopeful regarding the future of the franchise (especially after that initial marketing)

[@johnathonturner2279]

The tricks in Rush are literally just button mashing. I think it's better to emphasize grabbing rings and smashing enemies, as it feels like a way more natural way to fill that gauge. Heck, ignoring that both Generations and Frontiers DID have tricks, and in the case of Generations handled them quite well by allowing you to surpass the limit on the gauge.

[@jarkspore]

Yeah, people in these kind of fan bases tend to latch onto “complexity = quality”, when imo, the inverse is true. Hell, the main games tried to use as few buttons as possible at least while they were on SEGA hardware. But with this logic, the games would have “more depth” if they had a heart rate meter, that gives Sonic a heart attack if it goes too high.