Sonic's Speed is Fundamentally Flawed

[@zoomzike]

Which of the four development approaches do you think has brought about the best games in the franchise? 1: Alternative, slower gameplay styles 2: Reusing/replaying levels 3: Dial back Sonic's speed or restrict his environment 4: Fully speed-based, no strings attached

[@Orange_Swirl]

Honestly? If I can only pick one, it has to be number 2, because Sonic the Hedgehog is about mastery of the level design, and the controls, and other gameplay mechanics and dynamics in order to gain and maintain your speed. "The better you are, the faster you can play." This is the main concept I will judge all Sonic games on, regardless of the presence or absence of anything else.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

3 as a guideline that allows for some 4 in short bursts.

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

Option 3, with an emphasis on proper timing to maintain momentum and flow, rather than precise steering at blisteringly high speeds.

[@theeverythingchannel_yt]

Well, personally, I don't think Heroes is that good, and 06 is obviously bad, however Unleashed & Generations are top 5 for me, as well as the adventure games, so that makes 4 for the first category. As for category 2, I think colors is decent, but nothing top 10 worthy, however Frontiers is, even if it does reuse assets. Generations also falls into this category. As for the third category, lost world sucks cause its just a mario galaxy clone. And obviously as you stated yourself, Frontiers is the only game that is fully speed based, so that makes 1 game for that category. So in conclusion, the first development approach has produced the best sonic games in the series.

[@dazzlefizzle1266]

2

[@Cybershell13]

Yeah it's hard to make a good platformer game about speed, but going fast is just so inherently fun that I'm willing to put up with a lot of bullshit.

[@frontiersmodel4781]

Bro's Cyberbutt yooo my favourite.

[@islandboy9381]

Depends on the way you go fast too, the boost just feels too braindead to me in just going fast immediatly by the push of a button compared to the Adventure games you had to put in some skill in the controls and use of the level geometry (spindash exploiting aside) to gain it. I feel that the levels also get more engaging that way rather than starting to feel all the same like hallways.

[@Doodle1678]

Yeah I feel Generations did the boost formula well but Forces is it at the worst

[@kenjiisparxx]

That’s why Spark 3 is better lmao

[@bluetonik4198]

pizza tower

[@YourContractHasExpired]

I wish there were more games like in the Adventure Era, these will always have a special place in my heart

[@apathy2454]

Freaking same there hasn’t been a sonic game yet that I like more than them

[@Rex13013]

Same

[@Rex13013]

​@@apathy2454 I agree, SA2 is still my favorite Sonic game all gameplays included, I replay the adventure games to this day because of that reason

[@mistermamamia]

spark the electric jester 3

[@Rex13013]

@@mistermamamia Oh I remember Yakko talking about that one, still need to give it a try

[@BloodyAltima]

I think there's something you're missing in the classic games. They aren't actually about going fast, no strings attached. They're about *earning* your speed through mastery of the levels; you'll note (and this is especially true of Sonics 1 and 2) that most of the later levels are explicitly about slowing you down via block gimmicks or enemy layouts. You can't just rush through them, you have to figure them out, and chart your course ahead of time to figure out how to Go Fast through them.

[@GinraiPrime666]

Precisely. The games were designed with replay value in mind, since back in the day we couldn't just buy games all the time so you were mostly stuck with the games you had. As you replayed the game you would eventually get better, learn the layout of the zones and eventually be able to anticipate what was coming and smash through all those obstacles. That is where the depth in the design of classic Sonic lies.

[@spacelem]

Definitely. Sometimes to go fast, you have to moderate yourself, any racer knows you can't take corners at full speeed. Interestingly, there are moments in Sonic 3 that you cannot pass without the spin dash, while there are no such moments in Sonic 2, suggesting the spin dash was added quite late, and isn't meant to make you faster, but to make some of those slopes less annoying. Also in Sonic 3 you really need to make optimal use of the insta-shield to keep your momentum.

[@RakoonCD]

Well designed games make you think you are doing what you think you are doing. Give them what they think they want.

[@islandboy9381]

A lot of sections in Genesis levels manipulate Sonic's momentum to already make him go fast like the long slopes in Chemical Plant or the constant loops in Ice Cap Zone. Sometimes they even force you to use built up speed to traverse a slope/curve by either running or spindashing. It was then about how you would use that given speed or maintain it to reach higher paths. What made Genesis Sonic unique and ahead of it's time to me is it's level designs having a balance of both those sections; the ones where you have to earn your speed and the ones where you have to utilize/maintain given speed. But it seems Sonic Team has opted to focus it's design purely on the maintaining speed parts nowadays.

[@lukebytes5366]

Something to also consider is that this exact design has always been one of the biggest criticisms of old games. What's considered a reason to master the game to one player is total bullcrap designed to infuriate for another. We can praise pizza tower and the like all we want, but the reality is that the majority gamers nowadays want to finish a game, not play it over and over just so they can get a new score. (Big asterisk in that because there are still many gamers today that do exactly that but my point stands) I think in hindsight, that's why sonic was never gonna be a true rival to mario, even if sega wasn't treating their favorite animal like trash. Sonic's core design was never going to last through the broad appeal it was trying to gain, and the irony is that attempting to abandon that design has only made his games more confusing and divisive.

[@FlameLFH]

This is how I've always felt about Sonic's game design, especially in 3D. You run into a paradox: The faster you go, the harder it is to anticipate obstacles and control your character. However, laying everything out in a predictable fashion to accommodate that speed along with putting players on-rails can remove the fun for those seeking an adequate challenge.

[@Brandon-xc2pk]

honestly for speed games you should have to learn the level first in order to keep your speed, no one is going to perfectly execute a run on their first try and those dedicated enough will learn the level, ive been doing pizza tower p ranks recently and its made me see some game with emphasis on speed as a rhythm game of sorts since its about timing, execution and pattern recognition (depending on the section)

[@lpfan4491]

Especially in 3D? I feel as though the issue is bigger when one cannot see ahead.

[@Nic_2751]

@@lpfan4491 yeah they definitely misspoke but I agree with everything else

[@FlameLFH]

@@lpfan4491 Going fast in 2D is more forgiving in my opinion because despite being unable to see far ahead, you only have to worry about obstacles coming from a single direction. In 3D, unless the level is a straight line (which echoes my previous point about making the gameplay too predictable), you have to anticipate things coming from the top, left, and right sides of your screen.

[@vazazell5967]

@@FlameLFH That... doesn't make sense. There are no 3D games where you have to anticipate from sides

[@chainswordcs]

i like the development approach where they're allowed to take their time to create a good game, and aren't rushed to meet a holiday release date (:

[@djroscurro9859]

Boy I wish

[@iantaakalla8180]

I like that too, and to be honest, given the bevy of good Sonic games, I can wait 10 more years or more since that is the rate of good Sonic games once you get past Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

[@pufflord_gamesonicsoloesyo2365]

​@@iantaakalla8180 haha..

[@Sukaiba69]

Its funny because contrary to what current SEGA/ST wants you to believe, they are STILL crunching every game

[@pufflord_gamesonicsoloesyo2365]

@@Sukaiba69 Welcome to all of game development

[@BraviaGames]

I'm glad that you're going more into the topic of game essence as it a huge reason why people gravitate towards certain Sonic games over others. Smash Bros. and Kriby creator, Masahiro Sakurai once said on his channel: "As you increase 'game essence', you reduce a game's broad appeal." This also works the other way around though. Sonic Team has tried to appeal to as many people as possible since Adventure. They broke out of their niche with more gameplay styles and a longer game length. But this came at the cost of the main draw, the niche, the core Sonic gameplay. Think of Dark Souls. A game that is hard as heck and doesn't appeal to everyone but stays true to its identity appeals to those who like that kind of game. There are many games out there, Sonic doesn't have to be every type of game, it just needs to be itself. Hopefully going forward, Sonic games will focus on their identity as Sonic games and leave broad appeal for later once the game essence is perfected.

[@Voltricity435]

this right here. sonic has gotten far too broad in trying to appeal to everyone that he's lost a lot of his identity and is a reason the fanbase is so divided

[@moosesues8887]

Not diverse enough ngl

[@rainspectre3153]

How does that make sense when Adventure 1 and 2 are among the "beloved" games, while Forces is widely disliked?

[@BraviaGames]

@@rainspectre3153 The Adventure games handle broad appeal much better than Forces. Also, a game is not just defined by it's game essence. It's just one part of a game's overall identity.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Also, if we are being really strict with what constitutes a game, such as a continuous story, continuity of game mechanics, one player, and general stuff, Adventure and Adventure 2 have four games in one.

[@miimiiandco]

Colours and Secret Rings also have a ton of asset re-use, as Secret Rings re-uses the same level layouts for many different missions, and Colours re-uses map geometry for various different acts, usually replacing the assets. I believe Forces does this too.

[@Gnidel]

Forces did it only for one level (and Episode Shadow).

[@sonicthehedgehog3950]

Thankfully colors and secret rings forgives that reused level design for better, different and more exhilerating visuals you wont be comparing sand oasis to night palace or tropical resort to aquarium park. Meanwhile forces just copies level design, level layout and level visuals. Take all the jungle levels in forces all the death egg levels and all the 'City' levels in forces. They are *all* the same in terms of those three level layout level visuals and level design categories.

[@alexpufahl7484]

@@sonicthehedgehog3950 I still say that Secret Rings had some of the most creative world/zone aesthetics, to the point that I didn’t even consider the reuse of level design until you brought it up, because each location is so visually distinct from one another.

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

Lore for a more cohesive setting: The Chaos Emeralds emit leylines that sprawl all over the globe, magical lines that twist and corkscrew in arbitrarily yet whimsical paths. Though these lines are normally invisible, they are the cause behind many common phenomena: rows of floating golden rings in open spaces, roller-coaster-like terrain where leylines intersect the ground, pinball-like constructs, and bubbles providing temporary power-ups, to name a few. All of these things are just typical elements from the Special Zone that bleed into our reality. Why does all of this happen? Who knows, just roll with it. Anyway, leylines can last a few minutes or for centuries. The more ancient the leyline, the greater an influence it has on the physical world. And where multiple long-lasting leylines converge, they create Zones, chaotic and thrilling regions of the world that can entertain any speedy hedgehog for hours on end. Newer and more fleeting Zones tend to be natural landscapes, but ancient Zones are often built-up by sentient species to exploit the natural chaotic energy as a resource; these can be human cities, Echidna ruins, or Eggman's bases. As an aside, this is why Eggman's fortresses are often designed in ways that make it possible for Sonic to traverse them; he has to build them that way, in order to harvest the chaotic energy in the area. He can obstruct the path with traps and deadly hazards, but there's only so much he can do to patch up the glaring weaknesses of his fortifications without compromising the structural integrity or efficiency, for reasons that are too long to get into.

[@speedslider3913]

I've always had a headcanon that the Chaos Emeralds/chaos energy in general is why Sonic levels are so strange and game-like in-universe, so it makes me really happy to see other people share similar ideas! Your theory is way more indepth than mine, though, which makes it even cooler!

[@getthedunkon9347]

That's... actually really clever, Bravo!

[@chocov1233]

I've herd this before somewhere else. But I do not know from where I did hear it before.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

I'm an Adventure era guy. I liked the gameplay variety the most and the stories and worlds offered on GCN. I'll applaud the boost-era games for pushing Sonic to be faster than ever and getting that thrill. But that is hard to design around and needs long stretches to ongoing boost or do some 2D additions. Generations is the best of that style I'd say. Give Sonic good environments and the speed to really play there.

[@francjirachi]

Pizza tower in my opinion did exactly what sonic always wanted to do, the level design is made for P-ranking (doing everything fast in the level while maintaining a combo) and feels great, while also being able to be slow and search everything first at your own pace and still be satisfied even if you don't go for P-ranks after AND also the achievements that change how you play the stage so you have more fun playtime without padding

[@thatitalianlameguy2235]

But that's what was done in adventure 2

[@francjirachi]

@@thatitalianlameguy2235 That is the closest yeah, but the other characters still exist and the sonic and shadow stages aren't perfect

[@SECONDQUEST]

Pizza Tower is amazing

[@Eldoofus]

@@thatitalianlameguy2235 Yeah but the fastest route in SA2 usually doesn't ensure you'll get a good rank

[@ericamaya2467]

​@@Eldoofus neither does the fastest route in pizza tower. You have to get all the stuff additionally and keep up the combo.

[@TheMr.L01]

I'd say another factor with Colors and the Storybook games is that they're very reliant on more gimicky, "mission" stages to lengthen the runtime. Colors doesn't even distinguish the "mission" stages from the "main" stages (though the game's files suggest it might have at some point)

[@toekneemart5597]

Makes sense because the ds version of colors certainly made the difference clear

[@MrLag525]

When the world needed him most, he returned. Glad to see another one of your videos again :)

[@zoomzike]

ty :)

[@orangeslash1667]

@@zoomzike I recommend Freedom Planet, it's based heavily on 2d Sonic gameplay.

[@SuperSonic68]

And yet Sonic GT literally has the fastest Sonic ever seen in gameplay. According to Unity's in-engine physics, the character controller driving Sonic is literally traveling at Mach 1. Yet, it's very easy to control and even speedrun with. So, yes. Sonic's speed is difficult to design around! But it is by no means impossible. It just takes developers who know what they're doing. ...Who know what they're doing.

[@mushroomdude123]

If I had to choose one, I’d go with replaying levels (but not reusing old ones). The reason why I go back to Mania, S3&K, SA1 & 2 and Generations so much is because those games do a great job at making fun levels that are inviting to go back to. The problem I have with many Sonic games since Gens is that, yeah they’re more focused on a single gameplay style, but they’re so barren that I never want to go back to replay them. I even had a speedrunning phase because I enjoyed time attacking Mania’s levels that much. I’ve 100% SA2 twice and yet I haven’t had any desire to replay Forces after I beat it once.

[@incandescence5547]

honestly I wouldn't mind a relatively short game that encourages you to replay levels for hiscores or collectibles as long as it was well-done my main problem with sonic's speed is that (at least in the 2d games) it often feels like going fast is nothing but a trap to trick you into hitting something that you couldn't see until it was too late to react. That's probably why the 2d sections of frontiers have sonic move slower

[@islandboy9381]

yeah thats kind of the point of the replayability and the ring system incentivizes to still keep going despite getting hit and then getting better at it which does happen.

[@darkhorse744]

​@@islandboy9381Ring system can't protect you from crusher blocks and bottomless cliffs. Which the Classic series lacks, but Advance and Dimps Sonic games as a whole have FAR too much of.

[@marsupialmole3926]

Every single time I'm just sitting here feeling like a 4 hour long game that's polished to perfection is far better than a twelve hour long game where I have to play Meteor Herd, fishing, or a night time level.

[@islaamN]

Ah, welcome back Zoomzike! :) For me, what I REALLY miss in Sonic is the Adventure/Heroes cast of characters you can play as. (And Chao World). I know the motto is "Gotta go fast" and believe me blitzing through levels is incredibly exhilarating! But , I do wish Sonic would share the spotlight with his friends like he used to.

[@Eldoofus]

His friends don't have to be slow... I mean, if you wanna keep Sonic as the fastest character in the game, then do it, I'm all in for it!... but that doesn't mean Sonic's friends HAVE to be slow. :/

[@iantaakalla8180]

I mean, they have basically set it up with Frontiers. There is a 0% chance that they will actually make a character in Sonic who controls nicely without other gameplay problems, however.

[@carb0xyde887]

@@iantaakalla8180 why?

[@projectmessiah]

The thing is one of the most common complaints about for instance the Classic Sonic games is "Why am I not going fast" when that is as the kids these days say "a skill issue" you can go fast in the Classic sonic games it's just a matter of how good you are at dodging the obstacles in the way. So it certainly is possible to make fast paced sonic gameplay but the problem is more so making it new player friendly.

[@TechBlade9000]

Yuji Naka had to invent the ring system to counteract this because even though US marketing didn't exist for play testers they still tried to go as fast as possible immedialtly and ate pain for it

[@sayer4148]

I firmly belive that the main replay value of Sonic games is optimizing your route for the best possible time and that should be kept. The issue is how much can you punish the player for making a mistake.

[@snowyneko6710]

Moderately disagree. Sonic 1 wasnt made with speed as the core focus. Only Green Hill and Starlight Zone were made with speed in mind. You can't go fast if the other zones completely force you to halt progress and wait. Sonic CD is arguably worse, and there's a reason why Stardust Speedway is practically the only memorable zone of CD for Sonic fans. Sonic 2 is miles better, only held back a little by terrible enemy placement and a very small handful of Acts. Going fast in a sonic game isn't hard. There's no deep layers like Sonic fans spout out. Even if you're bad, you can still go fast. Maybe not for long periods, but you're still going fast regardless. The only one of the main 4 classic games that does it really well is S3&K, as a lot of levels in that game flow more smoothly, and have sections that force you to move fast, else you die. Mania cranks it up from there.

[@TechBlade9000]

@@snowyneko6710 Marble Zone act 3 is the only mandatory time you have to wait with no Speedrun room in the entire game

[@AutoYeah]

​@@snowyneko6710 Sonic CD have a Time Attack mode, you don't even need to have good skills since you can still finish most of the levels under 1 minute or 30th seconds, and also theres a time attack for the special stages solo i really like this concept since you can replay them without needing to play the base game, the game also rewards you with extra content if you beat it under a certain time.

[@splatkitty9232]

Sonic Unleashed is an interesting one for me. The where-hog, while slower, was a play style I was charmed by because with each replay, I was able to find interesting ways to avoid enemy waves and even skip large level chunks with the help of the stretchy arms. The ability to go fast in the night stages is entirely up to the player and how they approach the slower play style, and from my experience, a where-hog stage with this mindset would potentially take 2-3 minutes to beat.

[@onlymyself1234]

"There are four development approaches" "Anyway here's how Sonic Frontiers doesn't fit in any of them" I do desperately hope SEGA takes Sonic Frontiers and polishes it. Genuinely feels like they've never been closer to something that works with modern Sonic. Imagine a open zone, but it's Eggmanland? Imagine a more polished combat, with different characters even. They're on the cusp of greatness. They just need to take that step.

[@rossjones8656]

Open world or 'zone' in this case seems perfect for our blue hedgehog because the bigger the size something is the faster sonic can be and so much more.

[@moosesues8887]

No open zone aint it frontiers cool tho

[@Cyberguy64]

I've always said that Classic/Adventure Sonic is like a roller coaster, while Modern/Boost Sonic is like a bullet train. A roller coaster takes twists and turns, and slows down at times to build anticipation for the next thrilling speedy dive. It's got more to it than just speed. A bullet train is ridiculously fast, but it's a straight shot from A to B, with nothing to spice up the experience beyond the initial breakneck pace. If I'm looking for a good time, I'd rather ride a roller coaster than a bullet train.

[@mcnuggwtscreations]

Imagine hating Sonic Generations

[@Cyberguy64]

@@mcnuggwtscreations Imagine getting "hate" from "think is inherently flawed."

[@Orange_Swirl]

A bullet train with obstacles on the railroad lol.

[@Cyberguy64]

@@Orange_Swirl *Holding X intensifies*

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Cyberguy64 I recommend Freedom Planet, it's based heavily on 2d Sonic gameplay.

[@kaobunn]

I actually love Cyberspace I never struggled with the controls but then again I played them so much i got accustomed to them and the level design never felt like I was playing the same thing because they took plenty of liberties to differntiate each stage, especially with Gens and Unleashed having their 3D and 2D sections split for levels or the different geometry and cyber aesthetic But yeah i get why a majority hates those stages, I'm just kind of the opposite haha

[@frontiersmodel4781]

Don't worry, you can have your own opinion, so don't be sorry about it! I also enjoy cyb stages btw.

[@trashman9282]

i also enjoy cyberspace

[@fl0837]

Knowing that sonic team has only 60 people that works on the games (25 actually doing the coding, visuals, etc...). i can understand that Sonic team is having trouble doing what sonic does best... now that i think about it, it's a miracle sonic Frontiers managed to succeed with that much understaffing... even with 5 years...

[@SavageJarJar]

This is a good video not just on the editing ground but also how the main idea is showcased and how it attracts the viewer's attention. The first sentence delivers exactly what the title says, and it doesn't ever stop being about this main point. This video doesn't waste time explaining what doesn't need to be said. This is, no doubt, an exceptional video.

[@rollbustah]

For me, the 4th category is what Sonic should be. People place way too much importance on some arbitrary number of hours a game's length has to reach in order to be "worth the money." (And SEGA probably does too so they can charge full price for Sonic games again). For me, if the game is really fun, I don't care that I can beat it in an afternoon. Because if I had a lot of fun, I will go back and replay it again and again. Sonic 3 and Knuckles may be short by modern standards but I've put more hours into that game over the years than 100+ hour long RPGs at this point. Because it's just so much fun and there's so many things to discover in each level. It's really sad to me that the only 3D Sonic game to really try to replicate this is Sonic Robo Blast 2, an unofficial fan game.

[@derpydino17]

Mirror's Edge also had a very short playtime, but that game is a blast.

[@Brandon-xc2pk]

pizza tower has like 4 hours of gameplay minimum but ive sunken 50+ hours into it for all the extra content/replayability, sonic could learn a few things from peppino

[@GamingintheAM0801]

I'd much rather have an excellently-crafted game that only lasts six hours, rather than a 100-hour game that's boring or frustrating. I'm not sure when the gaming community collectively decided that anything shorter than 80 hours was a rip-off, but for some reason I want to blame Final Fantasy VII.

[@knuxuki1013]

You know what's so damn beautiful for me? For years, I believed that Sonic should take a page from Mario's book and place him in a sandbox to run around in freely as it would be obviously beneficial, and here we have Frontiers, you couldn't imagine my happiness

[@miqwerty]

I think with Project 06 this has become more apparent but Sonic 06 has an admittedly pretty smart approach to the first method you mentioned. Yes it has alternate characters some of whom scrape across levels like a glacier (sorry Omega, Amy, and original Knuckles) But they're split across three campaigns primarily focused on speed based characters (and Silver). They serve as small interludes to break up the larger levels, making the most of the assets while not affecting the flow of the levels for long enough to make the other play styles grueling.

[@bsharpmajorscale]

Ironically, Big and the treasure hunters' stages can be beaten faster than a lot of the speed levels in either game.

[@CyborgPigeon]

I would recommend checking out the Spark the Electric Jester trilogy. The third game is honestly one of the best high speed 3D platformers ever published and it does a great job of tackling the same problems that sonic games run into.

[@smflash]

Another hit video from Mr. ZoomZike! As a Sonic fan myself, the idea of moving at super speed was what initially made me interested in the games, but actually implementing that in a video game is something I've noticed SEGA not always executing in a way most players would've liked.

[@Visleaf]

Speed is scale and scale is hard. Not exactly a rocket science video but it had to be said

[@johnboomthegamer7533]

OK, a lot of people who are in the sonic fandom and are outside the sonic fandom needs to hear this because this gives you more appreciation for what Sega does. Making stages like this would be extremely difficult especially the fact that like frontiers making a character that runs extremely fast will be hard for the game it’s self to keep up so the fact thats sega can do this is more impressive especially since the environment changes a lot

[@tardissins7512]

One thing I really love about unleashed is how amazingly diegetic the level elements are (except the glowing rails and such in the night stages). It all feels like a cohesive world sonic is walking and running through. Truly the GOAT.

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

I know the Homing Attack cancel isn't intended for Frontiers, but I'm actually glad that they noticed it and decided it was now part of the game, since in Speed Strats they teach you about it

[@goldslip-ons]

I like the third approach. Yea you're a lot slower but once you learn how the game works and master the level design, you can start to use the speed you have in smart in creative ways. Colors does this with a limited boost meter via Yacker wisp. It makes you think about when you need to boost in certain sections. It also encourages exploration to skip certain chunks of the level to save time. (Aquarium Park Act 4 and Act 6 are some examples to name a few).

[@iantaakalla8180]

A Celeste-like Sonic would be cool to play, simply because Sonic-likes, when perfected, are Celeste-likes. That is, when you actually nail the speed and momentum down, you get gameplay that is like Celeste: stuff good to play slowly at first but when mastered can involve zipping through levels, especially when that character is Sonic (who by nature zips through any landscape). Sonic’s gimmick would be spindash stuff and weird momentum environments, like how Madeline’s gimmick is the dash.

[@Netherman14TheHellblazer]

I think this is why I like the levels with the Eternal Highway theme in Frontiers, because they're mostly original from 1-7 onward. It's why 4-2 (aside from one brief node to Speed Highway) and 4-4 are some of my most liked stages in Frontiers.

[@DemX_HaX]

The funny thing about Eternal Highway is that its just Empire City from Unleashed but all the signs are arranged in a way that they look bugged out and have a different language. It only feels original because of those small changes, which goes to show how something that small can completely change everyone's perception. They could have changed GHZ to include more of the mountainous/wooden structures and im sure people would have felt a lot different about it.

[@colin3216]

The thing about colors is that it had to run on the Wii, which is significantly less powerful than the 360 or ps3, so they were limited on how crazy they could go with the level design. Plus they had to pad the game out by cutting acts into two, and making what were originally optional mission stages mandatory, just to take the game from 1 hour to 2 hours. You can even see remnants of how it was originally supposed to work in colors ds, which has 2 acts, 1 boss, and ~3 missions per area. You can see it in the level design of colors Wii too, some hide it better than others, but in something like sweet mountain act 1 to act 2? Dead obvious. They’ve done it a bit in forces and frontiers too, forces was only for one level, but frontiers had to split Kronos island into 3 as they didn’t have time to finish the area rhea island section of Kronos. In fact, giganto was supposed to be fought in supreme’s arena, but they ended up dropping him elsewhere instead. I’d still say it worked fairly well in the end product for frontiers, but a compromise is still a compromise right? Hopefully for the next game they’re given all the staff, time, and budget to truly flesh out their ideas.

[@lpfan4491]

Which is why Unwiished had genuinely cooler levels built around rushing through? If it's about the better graphics in Colors, then that is just proof that pushing graphical capabilities as a concept is just a gamedesign-parasite.

[@GabrielSemicolon]

I absolutely adore games that just let you go fast, intentionally or not; it's why I've always been drawn to Sonic since I was a young lad. I'm not really the type of guy that gets too immersed in games, but speed makes me feel like I'm there. Seeing the scenery and entities fly by, the visual and audio effects, it pulls me in better than any other game mechanic. It even extends to falling fast; the sensation, the anticipation of hitting the ground at terminal velocity with your own two feet can't be beat. You can probably tell already which approach is my favorite. About the first approach: alternative gameplay styles are just as hard to get right as your main style. You're basically designing and forcing your players to play another game. Suddenly, if your characters must have separate levels - and they often will, just look at SA2 - you're just stuck with a bunch of different islands and giving yourself the work of bridging them together at the right spots so the player doesn't get bored with the one they're on. For the second approach, I'd just call that bad game design. If you're forcing players to replay levels they've already played, you'll need a damn good reason to make them do so. Look at PS3/360 Unleashed and its Sun/Moon medals, which are required hidden collectibles, forcing the player to do levels over and over, trying slightly different paths until they get enough for a new level. It's not only stale, but, as a designer, you're just gambling with your players' fun. Ironically, Wii/PS2 Unleashed did a much better job at this by completely detaching medals from the main storyline. As an aside, players will naturally want to replay your game in whatever way they feel like if the value is there, so this approach also kills longevity because players will be too burned out with chunks of your game to replay them. As for the third approach, we have a conflict of interest here. Sonic is fast, but to make it easier to make a Sonic game, you have to make him slower or simplify the level around him. At that point, just ditch Sonic entirely and make a game about another character. What if Sonic Lost World was instead, for the sake of argument, Knuckles Lost World? Suddenly, you've dropped the baggage and expectations that come with Sonic; a Knuckles game would automatically be not as fast, and you're also giving yourself Knuckles's character and abilities to play around with, which still lets you create an unique experience. Seriously, Sega has all of these guys just lying around, gathering dust until the next game with Big Blue on the cover, why not do something interesting with them? My ideal approach, and one I'm happy to see Sega embrace with their so-called "Open Zones", is no strings attached full-on fast, and Frontiers gives plenty of that, Cyberspace aside. My one major complaint is the fact that speed is a stat that must be increased. Speed should not be a reward, speed is an intermediary between you moving the stick and Sonic arriving at the next destination so make said locomotion more engaging and less time-consuming. It is not enough to just go fast; any game can do that by just tweaking variables. The game needs to play around with your speed to make it truly interesting. Metroid's Speed Booster lets you not only shortcut by being fast, but you can also break blocks to reveal further shortcuts and goodies and Shinespark to reach new heights. Titanfall lets you schmoove like crazy, because if you don't, you're dead, so you suddenly have a whole new layer to combat. Portal 2 turns speed into a puzzle mechanic with the Propulsion Gel: use it to cross large gaps, catapult yourself with a portal, make a tight timer, or a combination of the above. Top speed, acceleration, turn speed, braking speed... those are all details you can sweat out with your preferred speedrunning group (or in a racing game). To me, it's all about how the rest of the game interacts with a fast player. That's where the real fun of going fast lies.

[@bctalicorn809]

I personally disagree with you on Cyberspace for one specific reason: Adventure level design with a boost formula Sonic. I absolutely loved playing through SA2 levels I know in and out and love but having to play with a character that has a completely different feel and moveset, along with it being given a different coat of paint. My favorite was how the were able to turn the Green Hill Zone aesthetic and remake Sky Rail with those restraints. Love how they used those hangliders/kites in place of the rockets, and how they created completely new assets that support the aesthetic but still pay homage to the original level layout. It put such a huge smile on my face and I LOVED the majority of the cyberspace levels, wholeheartedly. Also, Chemical Plant and Green Hill are some of the best level aesthetics of all time, so I really don't mind if they reuse them until the end of time as long as they add enough fresh ideas to keep them from getting stale, and they haven't gotten stale for me at all yet. Might be a hot take tho, idk.

[@Lulink013]

I think that's the bad way to look at it... They don't put in slower gameplay just for cost reasons, but rather because going full speed 24/7 would be less exciting with no contrast. Also when it comes to level design size doesn't matter as much as the overall amount of care and thought put into it. Sure if there is a lot of background space to fill you need to put assets there, but reusing them is less of a problem since they are meant to be ran past. It's not placing assets that takes time it's making them.

[@HeroineNisa]

Agreed. I want more games like the Adventure era. Frontiers may not be perfect, but I had a lot of fun with it and the bosses.

[@thisisasupersayin376]

OK but there is a little bit of padding in Frontiers' overworld, because it's presented as having 5 islands, but they aren't even trying to hide the fact that island 1 and island 4 are two halves of the same landmass

[@CinnaSwirls]

I love how Tails feels in Sonic Adventure, but I can beat "an even faster Sonic" without ever flying once. I definitely wish he got difficulty as high as Sonic's limited time missions, which appropriately required you to be good at going really fast.

[@EN_les]

one key component about the classic 2d games that i feel warrants more discussion: a campaign in those games can be completed in around 2 hours IF you don't game over. their runtime was built around players taking the time to replay and learn the levels on their own for a more complete experience, an arcade philosophy that 3d games as a whole were, for one reason or another, were forced to abandon

[@cowserthekhelinace]

The best Sonic game is Pizza Tower. Emphasis of speed with few limits on it, very few reused gimmicks, and when they are reused they fit, the levels allow you to explore while still allowing you to go fast, and Gustavo & Brick allow a second playstyle while still maintaining the fast-paced gameplay.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I hate that the intended Sonic experience will never be in a Sonic game save Sonic 3 & Knuckles (and the fact that that was allowed to be merged was an accident).

[@Lanoman123]

8:27, actually the devs have officially acknowledged it and kept it in, it’s even in the Speed Strats video

[@Leffrey]

I’m gonna be honest about Frontiers: I didn’t even notice that the level designs were re-used from other games until a review pointed it out. Even if it’s been years since I played these games, I didn’t have a clue Some sections did feel very familiar, like modern green hill from Generations, the rocket climb from Adventure 2 or dragon road from Unleashed, but it felt more like a reference than a copy/paste.

[@Xavier95621]

4:29 Im surprised you didn't know/ forgot about the heavy recycling of levels in colors. Pretty much every single zone has at least 1 reused level chunk with just a new gimmick or a few different placed platforms/enemies.

[@JoshuaEisenbart]

I actually loved the way Cyberspace levels reused the old level designs. It took me two seconds to recognize City Escape, and the game has an in universe explanation for it: Cyberspace is drawing from Sonic's memories to create it's spaces, and Sonic speculates that the familiarity actually helps him escape them. (Side note, if they WERE drawn from Sonic's memories, why are Radical Highway and Sky Rail there? Those were Shadow levels.) It also helps that the only Sonic games I'd played before Frontiers were Adventure 2 and Riders, so the levels I recognized felt more like fun nostalgia trips, and not lazy reuse of ANOTHER level. I'm sure I'd feel different about Cyberspace if it wasn't my first time playing most of those levels.

[@bayluNO]

I think what also makes the 16 bit games differ from the others is that they didnt just have speed based gameplay, but also very momentum based gameplay. The momentum is what makes traversing thru stages so satisfying in the older titles, not necrssarily just "speed"! Sanic needs more ramps to go woosh off of

[@jackmcnally8706]

Finally someone said it. I've realized this for a very long time and it's a really hard design problem to solve. Honestly, it's a miracle games like Colors and Generations (and daytime Unleashed) were so awesome. It's why the games are so short yet take so long to make too. It may not excuse every design problem of the series, but it deserves consideration regardless.

[@drbiohazmat]

From what I've heard, Heroes also reuses so much because one of the two map designers got sick through half of the game development so one guy had to do it himself

[@ModBros8434]

I've seen this point (being that it's hard to design such huge levels to fit Sonic's speed) brought up quite a few times, and my counter arguments is as follows: It's entirely possible for the level designers and artists to create workflows that allow them to create huge levels with little effort (For example, with procedural generation), especially considering that large portions of the levels might be hallways or sections that are stretched out to work with Sonic's speed. However, it's still a valid point that more could go wrong with this approach, and that polish would take quite a bit more effort and problem solving. Still, it would probably be possible to offset that with a bigger budget and good team management

[@VictoryOnYouTube]

People tend to forget why Sonic is named Sonic. It means “speed of sound”, a title that’s been stolen from a character called a human villainous man who goes by Sonic in “One Punch Man”. You see, Sonic’s whole character and origin was based to be a speedrunning hero. Everyone else may be able to keep up with Sonic. But their name in now way matches Sonic’s boosting speed. If someone managed to outrun Sonic, Forget Eggman ) Sonic wouldn’t have enough purpose within his own world. Shadow uses rocket boots to go fast, Amy’s love and hate makes her go faster, Tails spinning his tails makes him fast, Knuckles can keep up and I think I know why. Sonic isn’t about using his true speed or it could damage the enviornment and hurt others and he’s not about that. SEGA and many people should be keeping the Shadow at even speed with Sonic and not trying to have Shadow become better because Shadows origin is to be cloned dark edgy rival who’s changed to become a brooding and overly serious hero while Sonic isn’t about that and just does his own thing and cracks jokes time to time. It wouldn’t make any sense to replace Sonic with Shadow.

[@iantaakalla8180]

So basically, Sonic has to become Neon White or something like that when using the gameplay of Sonic?

[@Gerbert67]

As someone creating a Classic Sonic game, i can say that the issue with creating Sonic levels isn't the HORIZONTAL size (lenght), it's the VERTICAL size (alternate pathways) It's very difficult to keep levels fresh because you have to basically design 3 different levels for each act. Each of these 3 levels has to flow organically together. You have to make creative ways for the players to reach every different path. You have to make sure to have creative level design for every little section of every little section of every act. After working on a single zone for the last week, i only finished the art, music, and half of Act 1, because making varied Sonic levels is HARD. And you wanna know the worst part? All of this is just 30 seconds of gameplay. This is why i get mad when people say that reusing level themes (green hill, chemical plant, etc) is lazy and sega shouldn't do it, because making these games is HARD, and even remaking old levels like Forces, Mania, and Frontiers did is hard too. I would say it's harder to remake an old level because of the fact that you have to do something BETTER than the old level.

[@Nic_2751]

It’s true, Super Speed is just OP as hell in general, it’s very POWERFUL and DEMANDING, it takes a LONG time to build for such a blazer, though that’s why I can’t blame Sonic Team too much, because the concept is just very hard for gameplay reasons, and the movies have now made Sonic powerful since he’s fully animated with no gameplay accommodations.

[@numbertumbers529]

Another thing I felt was really hard to incorporate into Sonic's design was the prospect of exploration, in games designed around mastering the mechanics to go through the game as quickly as possible, exploration doesn't really fit all that well at all. In games like Wario Land 4, they make the collectables a lot easier to collect, never being too far from the main path, but in turn asked the player to employ mastery of its mechanics. (i.e. the secret challenges and the Hurry Up! segments) Overall I feel like many other momentum-based games have employed the philosophies behind Sonic in much better ways (n++, Pizza Tower) and I feel like Sega could learn a good deal from these games.

[@naverilllang]

Unleashed did this by making you find sun and moon medals to unlock stages. Some of them were placed so you couldn't miss them if you tried. Some were really hidden away in areas you wouldn't expect to be accessible. Some would require advanced techniques. Some even require you to just take a random leap of faith with little assurance that you're not just jumping off a cliff. I had never thought about it much before, but that's probably why they were included. To get players exploring and not just always taking the fastest path.

[@numbertumbers529]

@@naverilllang adding this to the "things Unleashed did really well that they just frickin removed/borked in every game after the fact" list

[@weebsquit347]

This is exactly what I've been thinking! Well not 100% exactly since I learned more stuff here. Sonic's speed means you'll basically have to design large f-zero like racing tracks. Probably even bigger in some few occasions. It's even harder to make a high speed Sonic game in 3D too because the detail and design gets even more complex. So it's not just designing a long racing track, but also making that racing track an action packed platformer. But Sonic's speed flaw also goes back to his character design flaw, that we can feel even today. Sonic was made with the sole purpose to be a counter to Mario. Sonic's whole thing was that he was cool, had attitude, and went fast. Just like trends, what's "cool" changes overtime. Sonic's design also doesn't allow for other emotions or expressiveness. Even in Frontiers and Prime, he just looks very odd when he's trying to be expressive. It just doesn't work. His Boom redesign allowed this to work, because that design accounted for that in the first place. It's also why Sonic has a character identity crisis. He needs to keep changing to keep up with the times. The character that went against the trend, has now been chasing them for years. That's my point of view at least.

[@iantaakalla8180]

“The problem with being faster than coolness trends is that you have to decide what cool is or you are not cool” - some meme about trying to be deep about a superluminal person

[@remix7345]

personally, i think they just need to increase the density of the levels. if the paths you walked on were more tightly packed, not only is the background element much less of a herculean task to tackle, but the level design would naturally lend itself to granting the player opportunities to skip large portions of it. i think sonic levels are at their best when the intended path is quite lengthy and perhaps even a bit slower than normal, so that a beginner has to take their time and experience it, but any subsequent playthrough coupled with a bit of paying attention can massively cut down that time and shows a genuine difference to the player when their skill improves. newer sonic games tend to just throw away a lot of empty space; there's often a very small gap between D rank and S rank. a level like emerald hill, however, is often beaten anywhere from 3 minutes to 30 seconds. and let's get one thing straight: this isn't the boost's fault. this is strictly a level design issue. even if you had a spin dash or rolling physics or whatever the heck one's "dream sonic control scheme" would be, those would not make games like colors or forces any less economical in the way they utilize space. and even in frontiers, where the entire background IS the level, there is no "better way" to navigate the "level chunks" since frontiers takes the approach of opt-in challenges with very obvious start and end points, and sequence-breaking often causes the game to glitch out or just feels very unnatural. it is an open area filled with linear challenges, so your problem-solving remains linear more often than not. your only freedom tends to be the order in which you tackle these linear challenges. it is a remarkable improvement from the last 3 main line titles but there is still work to be done.

[@dimentiorules]

Pizza tower shows how you can make a fast paced game fun. Sonic has no excuse.

[@michaelsleeman2443]

I honestly love Sonic when you have the best sense of flow of that makes any sense. It's one thing to do things fast, but it's another where the game just feels satisfying to play. Frontiers does this really well because the game constantly gives you reasons to get into the flow state, like combat, the phantom rush is a mode triggered by landing enough hits hard enough fast enough. The rails that guide you from the different challenges also has a flow, with how it bounces you around and launches you through the rings, it keeps you active while moving (in fact, it's something I noticed with the final island, the rails just kinda exist. I don't think I rode the rails as much, but from what I remember it's pretty linear instead of the insanity of the other Islands). With that said, I do like Unleashed daytime levels because of how the flow feels, especially when you know the right route through the level.

[@coastcreature25]

I really hope the next game will be another 3D platformer, and I really don't want it to be a open world or sometimes 2D game. Open worlds are getting super boring and when Sonic games have 2D sections, it doesn't turn out the best like Colors or Forces. I just want the Adventure style back...

[@aronthegreat2935]

You know, I beat sonic mania a little while back and I understood why people liked Sonic’s speed a bit better. Then I played Pizza Tower, and realized I’m not sure I could go back to a sonic game after the speed and momentum was just handled SO DAMN WELL there

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

The best sonic gameplay I have experienced recently is probably in Pizza Tower, yeah. If only we could get a sonic title with such great design (especially one in 3d! That'd be incredible)! I've been thinking a lot of how to make that kind of fast, movement-based gameplay work well in 3d space, but I think it'd be real hard to pull off. It's essentially what Sonic Team has been trying this whole time after all, and I'm hardly a better game designer than they are. It's a heck of a problem to be sure. Maybe one has to focus on movement options and agility more than raw straight-ahead speed? Like, to give the feeling of speed, yet have it so that things are actually happening gameplay-wise, while also providing an engaging skill-based "gotta go fast" experience (like the old sonic titles were built around)?

[@Orange_Swirl]

​@Farflung Clown Listen, I understand that Pizza Tower has clear, objective improvements in comparison to Sonic the Hedgehog games. But that doesn't suddenly make every Sonic game not good, and it doesn't make Sonic the Hedgehog not a good franchise.

[@darkhorse744]

​@@farflungclown2698None of that, go away with that unironic, "Sonic was never good" shit.

[@derpydino17]

I believe the best solution would be to design more race car-like stages in Sonic games. Sonic Unleashed on the Wii did this exactly this and probably had a shorter development time. Many racing games manage to have long playtime so I think it could work with Sonic. Sonic Unleashed Wii even had a limited boost system so that player wouldn't constantly be holding the boost button. That actually made the levels levels more fun in my opinion because now players had to choose when and where would be the best time to utilize the boost.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

I honestly believe SEGA COULD release a Sonic game with only speed gameplay that would still be of Decent Length, all they’d need is a far bigger team. The problem is SEGA would rather have a Small team release a Game with Some Speed and Some bullshit to make a Quick Buck.

[@UhhHi-000]

That guy in the back of the audience: WHAT ABOUT SONIC IN FRONTIERS WHEN HE DOESNT HAVE MAX RINGS?!

[@noisew4ll]

i think option three should be explored further. sonic shouldn't be slow, but he should be slow ENOUGH to interact with levels and hazards in meaningful, engaging ways. think of Mario 64 and how Mario has so many movement options and techniques. that's the angle they need to work at with Sonic. make him nimble and acrobatic, not just absurdly fast to the point that he EXPLODES through levels that have to be stretched and padded like race tracks

[@AlteredNova04]

That's kind of how the classic games were designed. Sonic's heavily momentum based movement meant that platforming fast and efficiently required skill. Only someone who mastered the game mechanics and memorized the levels could blast through them at breakneck speeds. Going fast all the time was your reward for being good at the game, not the default like in most modern games. It gave the games a lot of replayability.

[@mjc0961]

They did that, it was called Lost World, it was crap, and I'm glad they haven't done that again

[@iantaakalla8180]

Lost World isn’t option 1 at all, it is a liminal game between option 3 and Mario Galaxy. With most of its good qualities coming from the Galaxy stuff.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

@@iantaakalla8180 Look we get it, you do not like Sonic at all. Now, can you remove yourself frpm conversations of those who accept Sonic's fundamental design?

[@s.kanessuperbiatv6464]

Honestly, I think the Heroes method has worked the best. The biggest problem with that game was the controls and difficulty. It's a shame Heroes and 06 had the best level design approaches; it's a shame it came at the cost of the controls and other areas requiring polish.

[@rossjones8656]

Frontiers is where sonic should be aiming at and go full open world but it can be everything sonic needs and that is size. Speedsters are best when given a large place to run if a stage then a thousand paths but with open world/zones well its perfect.

[@Lv27MarkerMan]

One point that seems very overlooked by most people: There are 2 versions of Sonic Unleashed that are actually completely different games (aside from story). I'm not talking about the day vs night sections. For this list I think they should be considered as separate games because a lot of your points about Sonic Colors apply to the version you're not talking about. You would probably prefer Colors to the version of Unleashed I'm describing.

[@Magicdfox]

the triumphant zoomzike comeback

[@buffkangaroodog]

What kinda kills the “from his memories” excuse in frontiers is that some of the layouts are from levels sonic never went to. Sky rail and radical highway come to mind, they were Shadow’s levels

[@lpfan4491]

Well, no. Sonic was in Sky Rail. Shadow was tailing Tails who is supposed to travel alongside Sonic. And Radical Highway more or less just confirms that it is canon for Gens(I know that's not the correct version of the stage, but it's not more inconsistent than the rest of the series.)

[@GalarianGuy]

I think one thing to include with the upcoming DLC, it's the first time that other characters being playable feels like a bonus in a 3D Sonic game, rather than padding. Although I do think Adventure 2 (as well as the 2-player mode roster) and Heroes did it really well, and can respect Shadow for referencing the 2D games by having player 2 capable of playing as them (I'd love to see how a remake/remaster would handle that co-op gameplay too). I really like having the full Sonic roster available to play as. I think event just having Team Sonic playable could have also brought games like Lost World and Forces from a 3/10 to a 6 or 7 /10. I'm also holding out for an Amy the Hedgehog game and I have no idea why.

[@fasttheplayer2535]

I saw the Hydro City thing in the Mania level select. Sneaky lol. I personally think it's hydrocity that rhymes with velocity

[@bluetonik4198]

pizza tower out here giving the middle finger to sonics flawed level design by just doing it better in everyway while yes it does involve a waaaaaay better moveset its still better

[@Galomortalbr]

i'm working in a game that features sonic like slope physics, the character can use slopes to accelerate to high speeds and used the climb walls, and going up slops makes the character slower. the character itself is not unreasonably fast, it is the solution i found for featuring some high speed segments in a game that is mostly in a slower pace.

[@SECONDQUEST]

Damn yeah man sonic 3&K rocked more than I remember

[@Terminal_Apotos]

I think the islands of Frontiers still suffer from the Same Problems. The majority of the Obstacles Courses are just 5-10 Seconds of Sonic Forces Level Design only now you spend extra time running from one section to another on an island that’s often Flat and Boring, or straight up doesn’t work for Sonic. This wouldn’t be a Problem if the Level Design was integrated into the island itself, and if it was actually engaging instead of being 80% automation. Even the Platforming Courses that use island Assets are often still completely separate from the island so it feels like they just took a normal linear level and plopped it next to or above an open world

[@darkychao]

I feel like shorter length stages that encourage a player to go back an play them again for a better time is probably the way to go, this was kind of the core idea behind the series from the start, honestly. having really nice and functional and easy-to-use time trials mode in Mania was nice but it also lacked any kind of metal/ranking system that existed in stuff like the Advanced games and Pocket Adventure. SA2's system was kinda nice but getting _all_ them is a huge ask and then there wasn't really that much of a reason to bother since the final reward was kinda meh. there's quite a few indy games that get this right one example is Pizza Tower which takes some inspiration from Sonic as well as Wario and Metroid. getting a good rank on it's own in a stage just feels good because of the ranking screen, the end screen is different based on how fast you played the game and/or how much you completed and on top of that it just feels good to schmove.

[@JrIcify]

It's really nice to hear an analysis on this subject that doesn't just reiterate the same "it's too hard" complaints we've been hearing for over 20 years now. I almost didn't click on this because I'm so sick of hearing people complain about Sonic. Thanks for making a video that's about more than that.

[@connormchugh7697]

I always imagined a system in a game where speed affects the enemies and traps around the player character, instead of making it so fast its unplayable. This would make the player FEEL faster, without losing the control a precision platformer REQUIRES. But that is just a concept I thought of based on how dragonball portrays speed to its audience vs how characters see it. (Edit) Actually it would be similar to the time break from Sonic and the secret rings only more polished and less.... from that game.

[@moosesues8887]

That’s just slowing down time

[@sikosonix901]

Very enjoyable video. And I can happily say Sonic Team HAS learnt with Shadow generations. No unnecessary padding, just pure Shadow the Hedgehog.

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

It's nice to hear someone talk about a "problem" with Sonic's speed without it just turning into another "The games are about _going_fast_ but it punishes you for doing it" said by someone who just holds right and expects not to smack into things.

[@miqwerty]

To some degree replayability has been built into the franchise from the beginning. The Genesis games were built with a sort of arcade-like mentality where you were meant to compete with your friends to get the best time or best score if you were inclined. As such the levels were built with an optimal route in mind and the goal of your run was to quickly find it and stay on it as long as possible. For Sonic 2 stages this usually meant the top path but games like Sonic 3&K mixed that up a bit. I think designing the game for time trials is why they turned Sonic into more of a car in the boost games but I would love a combo of the no-strings-attached speed and rewarding replayability done in 3D more often.

[@MarkerMurker]

And this is where we introduce Spark The Electric Jester 3. If you haven't played it, it's worth every single penny, especially with the two free DLCs.

[@robertlupa8273]

2:00 _"and Tails can do with tight spaces"_ That naughty fox boy :P

[@Tera_GX]

Wait, that cyberspace reuse of old game levels sounds so cool! I haven't gotten around to playing it yet but that description sounds like a nice bonus.

[@Spooncultist]

I'm a very big fan of Spark the Electric Jester 3, because it does a lot of the no strings attached speed type stuff, but if you get to know the speedrun tech, you can beat certain levels in about 30 seconds, such as Cold Dry Desert and Splash Grotto which can be played in the demo and are in the first two parts of the game. The magnet dash and hyper dash make the gameplay insane in a very good easy to learn hard to master type way along with the regular base movement and also doesn't suffer from the 1 button problem SA1 and SA2 fall into where you may be trying to light speed dash into some rings but end up cratering into the ground. A is jump, B is homing attack and RT is dash. You can also use LT+A in order to drop to the ground and LT+B in order to stop and do a charged jester dash which stops your momentum entirely and needs a second to charge up but helps speed you up. The light speed dash if we're going to continue using sonic terminology. Please stream this game some time or just play it for yourself. it is my favorite Sonic game even though I know it's not actually a Sonic game. The lore is also very good, so I'd advise playing the other two before it as well, but also the game on it's own is also very good.

[@NovaeGalaxia]

8:15 This aged well with the second update where the spin dash and air deceleration options were added. Cyberspace feels fun again.

[@faded9581]

Personally, I wouldn't mind a short game centered exclusively around speed. Once you're done, you can keep getting better and better, which is the fun of speedrunning Sonic games. It's funny, because this solution is arguably the first one they came up with, as most classic games can be beat within an hour by a competent player! I suspect they felt obligated to deliver a more lasting experience when they looked over at their competition in the late 90s in the form of Crash Bandicoot and Super Mario 64.

[@xlro8f853]

Its actually pretty cool the max homage to old levels in Frontiers. Still needed more cyber space textures.

[@KittyKatty999]

Wow, you *REALLY* put into words something I never knew made so much sense!

[@sliceninja4546]

Ironically enough if they just polish up what they did with sonic 06 in terms in gameplay and maybe perhaps had in more elements (like parkour from sonic lost world) Perhaps combing them will make an enjoyable presence. It all matters in execution

[@metashy344]

(Sorry if this is a bit long, but I will try to keep it short and simple, [great video btw :D]) I think that saying that the genesis games were all about speed is putting it simple and ignoring a lot of their design philosophy, I would say that they were more about "skill mastery" and letting you play in any way you like, and I know that this is a concept that could be applied to any game, but the classics really push it to the front, for example, putting elements of exploration and little (and later on bigger) rewards for the players that enjoy taking their time (design around and whit a 10 min limit, making sure no stage overstays its welcome). Other elements like the physics help whit this, since it’s so much fun just to move around, once the player gets the hang of them, they can go basically anywhere as fast as they want, or maybe the players may want to 100% complete the game and go to the special stages, playing carefully and making sure they got enough rings to get a shot at those chaos emeralds, but achieving any of this isn’t so simple, the physics alone can be a barrier of entry to new players, and that’s why this games require that the player puts enough time and care to the games just to even get to the see the end of them, and this can fell cheap and frustrating at first glance (especially since most of them didn’t allow you to save your progress, making you start from the beginning of the game instead of the zone), but when they are forced to start from the beginning, they will have a bigger understanding of the game and how it works, giving a new perspective on those stages that they have already beaten , because next time they will be faster, next time they will be better, they can sharpen their skill. The classic games are not based just around the concept of speed for the sake of speed and looking for ways to get it, no, this is just one approach a player can take when playing them, and it’s the one that the marketing and most players stuck to, since is the most eye catching and flashy (and even rewarding), they are based around the fact that you will replay them, and by doing that, you will get better at them, finding an approach that works for you, building their stages on the fact that there isn’t just a way to the end, and that not every way feels the same, and this is why, in my opinion, the genesis games have stood the test of time, and the fact that most people refer to them as “the classics” is enough proof of that. And I’m not saying that later sonic games doesn’t try or achieve this concept, is just that, in modern times, is far more difficult to get someone to replay a stage (let alone the whole game) just for the sake of it, and I think that’s the main obstacle to this franchise, that it isn’t easy to master a game if you don’t play it enough to let it hook you (at least on the 3d entries), and in that endless pursuit of trying you to make you, “feel like sonic” instead of “becoming better at sonic” and believing in its own superficial marketing of “speed” instead of make the player find a way to enjoy a stage design in multiple ways, that we can find most problems. So yeah, speed is a fundamental flaw because it will demand a lot from a design perspective, but is one that can be overcome, it has been done from the very beginning. If you have endured all of this nonsense, let me thank you I want to be a game designer and analyzing all of this is just fascinating to me, seeing the different perspectives, mindsets and solutions to a problem is one thing, but to accomplish that in an artistic way that is unique and meaningful requires and skillset that I can only hope to have one day, and seeing some of my favorite games and franchises being covered in this ways help to complement my own opinions and research. I still have a lot to learn, and I hope that reading this wasn’t a problem (English isn’t my first language), there is still a lot I could say, but I think this is enough for now. Once again, great video!

[@islandboy9381]

Funny how when Sonic Team tried a open world gameplay formula similar to some fan game tech demos like Sonic Utopia, Green Hill Paradise act 2 ect it gets more praise.

[@mecor9191]

Because unlike the fan demos, Frontiers doesn't have any urgent end goals, you're meant to explore. What do I mean by this? In Frontiers' open zone, you can do most things however you want to do them at whatever order you want to do them in due to there being no end goals you want to go fast for, exploration isn't nearly pointless in the game so the expansive size of the areas isn't just wasted resources, and it all isn't just due to not there being any time goals, the memory tokens, emerald keys, guardians and portal gears, the lost koko, the stat seeds, special enemies, fishing tokens, it all adds up to what makes that game different from any (or at minimum, most) fan projects, sure, you can say this but it is only because you stripped Frontiers bare of nearly everything in it that makes it an actual game.

[@extremmefan7305]

I don't care how fast the hedgehog go, I just wanna play my little fox boye

[@apathy2454]

🦊 💛

[@burgezdoestuff8578]

Tails could have a more advanced flying mechanic , like Air Time depends on Rings/Speed . There should be more depth to Tails flying .

[@orangeslash1667]

@@burgezdoestuff8578 I recommend Freedom Planet, it's based heavily on 2d Sonic gameplay.

[@burgezdoestuff8578]

@@orangeslash1667 I know right ,but I don't have money .

[@orangeslash1667]

@@burgezdoestuff8578 The point is that Freedom Planet recaptures the charm of multiple playable characters without changing the gameplay, something 3d Sonic struggles with.

[@3vango]

Hey atleast there's not a button to help you instantly gain speed in the classic games...wait

[@theaa47]

:(

[@Functional_Human12]

Last time I checked there isn’t, you’re thinking about 2 buttons

[@onlymyself1234]

I mean, there isn't in Sonic 1, and that game fucking sucks

[@3vango]

Sonic 1's my favorite actually, speed through mastery rather than spindash jumping

[@onlymyself1234]

@@3vango that's a nice concept, but the level design itself is pretty bad

[@Crazybark]

I still want a sonic colletathon. Somthing like a hat in time or mario 64. Giant open levels with stage gimmicks and hazards to run around in with different missions in said world that mix it up. Maybe with smaller linear stages (similar to ahit's Time rifts) to really show off the speed. I think it would solve alot of sonics issues