Sony a9III Global Shutter Flash Timing

[@shootprocessprint]

A good video with good details after a long time. Was getting tired of the boring reviewers videos

[@JasonVinson183]

Glad it was useful!! 🤗 🤗

[@davidscottbowlesphoto]

wow! Great info Jason.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@davidscottbowlesphoto glad you liked it!! 🤗 🤗

[@camerasutra247]

Very few people understand flash. I have been saying this for years. I feel we need new flash units which have the the ability to work with global shutter sensors and adjust the timing. I think canon is already working something like this but let’s see what comes out in the near future. Keep up the great work and glad to find someone other than myself that understands flash photography inside out.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@camerasutra247 yes will be interesting to see what comes. I have to imagine all the flash companies are working on it. Just depends on who can launch it first.

[@351linzdoctor]

Sony already has them!

[@camerasutra247]

@ not quite I own the latest HVL-F60RM2 GN60 and the fastest flash duration is Flash Duration (Approx.) Within 2.8 ms(1/1 MANUAL) which is slightly faster than a mechanical shutter around 3ms. Global shutter is 0 ms. Plus if you read the manual it will work with the a9iii like other units but does not have auto timing correction. Marketing can be very misleading. Hope that helps.

[@camerasutra247]

@@JasonVinson183 yup

[@351linzdoctor]

@@camerasutra247 They do have auto timing up to there fastest duration in TTL because I've used them out doors to over power the sun in TTL!

[@ladmanstudiosphotography]

Man, this is eye opening on the A9iii, i was really excited for it but now, i just might go with the A9 II or A1 2. Im excited to see what this brings in the futures as it gets better, but it just seems like a ton of extra work that would be needed for things like weddings on a dance floor. sounds like its an outdoor sports or wildlife photographers dream tho as they would not have to worry about flash.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@ladmanstudiosphotography you dont have to do anything extra for dance floor images. If yiy are shooting at 1/500 or slower, the camera acts like all other cameras. The extra steps only come up when you break into the higher shutter speeds.

[@ottawamountainman]

A bit of a mess in studio where I might use a multitude of strobes from ad1200, 600, 400 and 200s all at different settings. And I'm frequently tweaking the output of each one on the remote. Granted, the A9III is not a dedicated studio camera (with high base iso and noise and lower pixel count) but working things out now for the future as you discussed is the correct path. I agree that Global shutters are here to stay. Fabulous video! thanks

[@JasonVinson183]

@@ottawamountainman ya totally! This is definitely nkt the best studio camera. But in a studio, you shouldn't need to push into the crazy high shutter speeds so you should be fine in that regard!

[@ericbrinkhorst4616]

One year ago i was at a presentation. They showed the flash histogram. and the part that you use at highspeed. You cut of some of the left part of the flash ( diagram ) and some of the right, so you are not using / getting the full power anymore. No problem if everything is constant. But when you change a little , there can and wil be a huge effect. But I must say it is nice to flash at a lot of thousands of a second.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@ericbrinkhorst4616 ya totally! But that's what the flash timing setting is for. To make adjustments when the shutter speed or the flash curve changes 🤗

[@Rocky_KO]

Looks like you'll have to intentionally change the flash timing to shift away from the peak to lower the flash power. It seems we gain some incredible flexibility with flash since we can get full flash power at all power levels but also at the cost of an incredibly huge flash timing chart haha Have you used the Sony trigger and the two Sony speedlights that support global shutter sync? Sony never updated the trigger firmware for global shutter but I'm wondering if you at least get auto flash timing up to the 1/8000th shutter speed that the trigger supports, otherwise the auto flash timing is limited to on-camera flash.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Rocky_KO in some instances you could potentially shift the timing to lower the power of the flash. The issue is that there are also instances where even one flash timing increment is the difference between seeing light and not seeing any light. There are also instance where not being in the peak of the curve causes massive color inconsistencies because you catching the curve as it's not fully on. And yes, I've used some sony flashes that auto adjust the timing (for on+camera and off-camera) and it's nice to have. I just generally need more power then a hotshoe flash can get me.

[@Rocky_KO]

@@JasonVinson183 In what scenarios would you need more power then a speedlight? It seems the A9III global shutter with speedlights is enough for environmental portraits scenarios.

[@JasonVinson183]

@Rocky_KO totally depends on the situation. Distance from light to subject, modifiers, type of lighting (direct light, back light, etc).

[@Rocky_KO]

@@JasonVinson183 Which flash system do you use? I'm surprised none of the 3rd-party flash brands updated their firmware within 6 months after the A9III release.

[@JasonVinson183]

@Rocky_KO I use godox, elinchrom, and profoto. But I imagine it's more difficult then a firmware update. Even the new godox v100 pro that supposedly supports global shutter won't auto adjust the flash timing.

[@kyakfsh]

Excellent explanation of how flash sync interacts with the flash settings. I have used the AD200 family of flashes for years. At this point I have (2X) Godox AD200, (2X) Flashpoint eVOLV 200 R2, (1x) eVOLVE 200 PRO R2. I need charts for all these models. Is the timing the same for the fresnel head as well as the bare bulb, or are they different? I switch back and forth between the two often. Do you find that the model of the wireless flash trigger makes a difference? I started with the Flashpoint R2 PRO S, and recently upgraded to the Godox X PRO II S.

[@JasonVinson183]

In my experience, all the ad200 varients seem to use the same timing. But I'm not sure if the bare bulb head would cause a shift in timing. I only ever use fresnel head so I'll have to test this!

[@jamiesondean]

Good vid, but everything past xsync is an advantage; not a problem… even if there’s caveats. Anyway, give it a couple of years and Godox will round-out their wireless options with auto timing for GS. What we really need is more advances in LED strobe/flash, as they can potentially offer unparalleled duration with zero ramping

[@JasonVinson183]

@@jamiesondean totally agree it's an advantage! But advantages can still come with problems. But like I said, the problem is not with the GS technology, but more so with the fact that it pushed flash designs past their limits. It's also worth talking about because even people that already own the camera don't understand what these limitations are or how to work around/with them.

[@AMGOSUK]

Sounds like setting all flashes to the same power and varying flash distance is a “quick” solution. Double the distance reduces power on subject to 0.25.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@AMGOSUK it's definitely a way! But then you have to deal with modifier size and spread of light plus the different light falloffs

[@Erik_Grosse]

Thank you very much for this awesome video. Since the A9III came out, I am struggling with myself to buy such an expensive camera, to solve the problems when using flash, if it is really bright outside. With HSS, you need so much power (and therefore size and weight), that it is a huge effort, when you travel for example by plane. You confirmed also very impressive at 6:18 my assumption, that changing the flash power may no longer work the "normal" way. Even a Sony guy did not understand this special problem, when I discussed this at a promotion day. Unfortunately I still don't know, if it is worth to spend 7000 EUROs (yes, here in Germany!) 😭🙄🙃 Also the base ISO of 250 is not very helpful, when using flash in bright conditions. My impression is also, that after the promotion phase, only a very small number of photographers are really working with the A9III, at least I see no more new videos or images, except your video!

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Erik_Grosse as someone that used to do sessions with a 1200ws light... I can now do pretty much anything I had wanted to do with that setup with just an Ad200 now. I definitely recommend checking out my video where I compare hss to global shutter! 🤗

[@Erik_Grosse]

@@JasonVinson183 Tomorrow, I will have a look (after I have confined / locked my credit card first 😁) At a workshop, I also had the opportunity to take photos with the Godox 1200 with standard reflector at a distance of 3-4 m. It was just bright enough to get the model and a car in the shadow to the same brightness level like the background in the Mediterranean sun, when using HSS with 1/8000 and F1.4 or F1.8 (all by mind). I was really shocked, how much power was lost!

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Erik_Grosse ya most lights lose a stop of power the instant you go into HSS. That loss ramps up as you ramp up the shutter speed.

[@oasean]

Note that although α9 III's _base_ ISO is 250, an _expanded_ ISO of 100 is available.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@oasean the problem is that as soon as you go below the base ISO, you're highlights clip super fast. So in my experience, it's better to stay at base, and make up the difference with the much higher shutter speeds you can use.

[@mchenfoto]

Interesting finding out when the flash peaks , with shutter speed and power setting

[@JasonVinson183]

Thanks!! 🤗 🤗

[@Garbid]

So even with sony speedlight all same... If I want to set 5 light setup with each speedlight should be different exsposure with color gels to lit some parts of background and some to light bridr and groom all my speedlights will works at same exsposure?

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Garbid possibly! Depends on the shutter speed. Once you pass 1/250, you have the potential of cutting off part of the flash curve. But this depends on the power/flash duration and the shutter speed. If the flash duration of your needed powers are all short to fit within your shutter speed, then you'll still be able to see the difference in power within your exposure.

[@Garbid]

@@JasonVinson183 thanks. I was thinking to buy a9iii and change the lighting) i should stay with ad200+ speedlights and ND filters!)

[@WAPhoto]

So we aren’t there yet.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@WAPhoto the camera technology is there but the flash technology is not. Thankfully there is a viable work around until flash companies can catch up!

[@Beezzzzy_]

I just rented an a9iii and found out yesterday how the globals shutter flash works. The timing really throws me off. I’m mainly using it for sports and action but wanted to test out the ocf.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Beezzzzy_ it's definitely an added step in the process!

[@oasean]

I value this sincere discussion of the realities. I had expected the global shutter to sync usefully with flash up to maybe 1/4000th sec. In this video, you seemingly indicate 1/500th sec as a roughly universal limit. Have you discerned an upper limit that, while not universal, has been broadly usable for you?

[@JasonVinson183]

@@oasean you can usefully sync with any flash at speeds up to 1/80,000!! You just have to adjust the flash timing at speeds greater then 1/500.

[@oasean]

My takeaway from your discussion was that when using multiple off-camera flashes, as shutter speed increases beyond 1/500th sec, the effort to adjust flash timings becomes increasingly tedious to the point of often impractical. If I am incorrect on that, then your video utterly lost me. Otherwise, I was asking whether you have discerned a "broadly usable" upper limit, not merely a usable upper limit. Given your reply, though, I'll gather that everything above 1/500th sec is similarly tedious-usable but often unworkable.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@oasean take a look at my chart. There is fair amount of overlap for certain power levels at higher shutter speeds. So it's definitely possible to use multiple light setups in some of the higher speeds. But yes, the higher you go, the less overlap there is (because the shutter speed is much shorter to catch the peaks of the flash curve).

[@oasean]

Now I'm utterly confused, although at least I still recognize that "it's definitely possible to use multiple light setups in some of the higher speeds." I had believed, though, that your chart, developed by tedious trial and error, is specific to a particular flash product, not broadly generalizable to most flash products. If, somehow, your chart is broadly generalizable to most flash products, then I don't understand what the ongoing limitation is, since you have overcome it for most users.

[@JasonVinson183]

@oasean the chart is for just one flash. But if you have more then one of the same flash, you can use those at some high shutter speeds at certain power levels (like a half power main and 1/8th power kicker). Though, you still might run into the issue of some power levels being the same as others. But it won't be as drastic as when shooting at a 1/80,000th shutter.

[@Piegaman]

Can't wait to the release of godox v100 pro

[@JasonVinson183]

@@Piegaman it'll be nice! Unfortunately the auto adjustment of the flash timing won't translate to other flashes in the lineup (ad200, ad300, etc). And I generally need more power then 100ws. But at least godox is thinking about the issue and moving their releases in the right direction!

[@flol3266]

Isn't there a new godox flash on the horizon that should help with that problem? Edit: ok you mentioned it in the End 😅

[@JasonVinson183]

@@flol3266 ya totally! And the new flash will help, but it's only part of the problem ✌️

[@tennissir1986]

It’s an Arkansas thing.

[@justinhatchvisuals]

AD300pro!

[@JasonVinson183]

@@justinhatchvisuals I can probably get my hands on one of those! 🤗

[@macbaar6073]

biggest problem? problems! a. its too expencive b. its from sony c. return to a.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@macbaar6073 😂 those sound like personal problems. Not actual problems based on facts...

[@yusei151]

My guy out here mad cause he can’t afford something? Bro that’s definitely a personal problem. Hit me when you find an affordable global shutter full frame camera on the market and tell me the price. Unless you can stfu

[@roybixby6135]

I've ben envious of the A9iii flash sync - I must be a be premature ...🦘

[@JasonVinson183]

@@roybixby6135 even with the limitations, It's still the best camera on the market for any off camera flash work.

[@351linzdoctor]

Just use Sony Flashes And You Won't Have This Problem!

[@JasonVinson183]

I don't think you watched the full video ☺️

[@TheGeoDaddy]

There’s a couple of videos about using strobes with the A9’s Global Shutter… yes, they use Sony’s strobes but they were WIRED (the good old way) into the camera body NOT using the radio control. Not sure if charting works in a variety of ambient lighting.

[@JasonVinson183]

@@TheGeoDaddy they may just now have had another flash to use? Because I have used a pair of Sony flashes with an on-flash as the wireless trigger for the off camera and it definitely works 🤗

[@TheGeoDaddy]

Faster than 250? Cause they were shooting much faster…

[@JasonVinson183]

@TheGeoDaddy I took off camera flash photos at 1/80,000