Sourdough Starter vs Commercial Yeast | Can You Get Comparable Results?

If you are really into baking, then you most likely enjoy naturally leavened bread. But not everyone wants to keep a starter and look after it. Although it is not that much effort. But still, yeast dough is just so easy and convenient in comparison.
I have baked and eaten countless different breads be it made with commercial yeast or sourdough starter, and I love them all. It would be hard to find a bread that I don’t like. If it is made correctly, it will most certainly be good.
Since my channel has become the home of comparison videos, I thought it would be interesting to try and make two breads using the same ingredients and methods. With the only difference being that one would be made with a yeast derived preferment and the other with a sourdough leaven.
If you love sourdough bread, you know why. It has a distinct taste; it is crusty and smells great. It is like bread on steroids. Everything about it is more intense in a good way.
But have you ever been in a situation where you tasted two breads of which the preparation methods only differ in what kind of leavening is used? Both fermented for the same amount of time and using the exact same quantities of ingredients. I have never tasted two breads like that side-by-side. Is it possible that the two breads could be extremely similar?
📖 Read more ➡️ www.chainbaker.com/starter-vs...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
🌾 If you would like to support my work click here ⤵️
www.ko-fi.com/chainbaker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
🔪 Find all the things I use here ⤵️
🇺🇸 www.amazon.com/shop/ChainBaker
🇬🇧 www.amazon.co.uk/shop/ChainBaker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
🥨 To learn more about bread making click here ⤵️
Principles of Baking bit.ly/principles-of-baking
The Steps of Baking bit.ly/steps-of-baking
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
🍞 Share your bread pictures here ⤵️
www.flickr.com/groups/chainba...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#Bread #Baking #ChainBaker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclosure
I participate in the Amazon Influencer Program which will earn commissions from qualifying purchases at no extra cost to you.

[@ChainBaker]

📖 Find the written recipe in the link below the video ⤴ 🌾 If you would like to support my work click here ⤵ www.ko-fi.com/chainbaker 🔪 Find all the things I use here ⤵ 🇺🇸 www.amazon.com/shop/ChainBaker 🇬🇧 www.amazon.co.uk/shop/ChainBaker 🍞 Share your bread pictures here ⤵ www.flickr.com/groups/chainbaker/

[@tamihungerford5899]

I could watch these side by sides every day all day. And those tiny little breads...amazing!

[@KarloEMelendezPena]

I mostly use my starter for baking, I find it much easier to control the fermentation. But if it's not available, I sometimes use active dry yeast, it is much faster even when refrigerated. Since I cold ferment over three to five days, it can sometimes slightly be over by the last day. However, the taste is pretty close since I leave it for so long. The smell is much more beer-like and potent on the yeasted dough. One cool thing about yeast, is that you get the little show when it activates and wakes up, that's always fun.

[@JokerDoom]

This is a wonderful comparison. I did spot a small issue that I only noticed because my wife is a nurse. Cross-contamination. You touched the commercial yeast batch and then the sourdough batch without washing your hands between. They were also made right next to each other, which can contaminate the air. This isn't a health concern at all, but it does mean some commercial super-yeast got into your sourdough batch and vice-versa. We home bakers rarely think about things like sterilization but when it comes to growing a live culture of wild yeast and bacteria, it can actually be really important. Obviously it didn't matter that much here, but it would definitely matter if you were making a new sourdough starter. Anyway, I love the content and just wanted to add more scientific knowledge to the community as a whole.

[@ChainBaker]

You are right. Although, after a while the dominant yeast will take over. Wild yeast and bacteria prevail and weed out the commercial yeast in a starter.

[@pooch3289]

Unnecessary comment. What does your nurse wife have to do with this? The organisms you claim to have cross contaminated are negligible.

[@TheIntJuggler]

@@pooch3289Probably because nurses are taught to wash their hands constantly to prevent bacteria spread.

[@wilhelmseleorningcniht9410]

@@pooch3289 it's called context? Only unnecessary comment here is yours

[@Kazeumi]

I love your technique, not just in baking, but in how you handle subjet matter. The commentary you add makes the video more interesting , but you aren't adding anything to pad video time and it is so easy to watch as a result! Bravo!

[@ravveni]

Another fantastic comparison! All of your videos have improved my bread making immensely. Thank you so much!

[@smitajal9565]

This is what I needed... I live in India and the weather conditions are crazy... Creating sourdough starter requires a lot of attention..and i have really enjoyed my breads using poolish/biga... Your video really helped me think right. Thank you Charlie

[@Hubiruchi]

I started my baking journey a year ago. Each week I made one/two loaves and that is my dinner every night. One of my first goals was to make an open crumb bread. I tried many different methods and techniques before succeeding in my 8th try- with a recipe similar to this. The funny thing is that while I tried to perfect this skill I stumbled upon your channel, which helped me greatly. However maybe I'll take this as a sign and move to sourdough now...

[@Glacier_Nester]

I love these side-by-side comparison videos, they really help inform how I come at baking week to week. Honestly half the time I'm using my sourdough starter, it's less about flavor and more about "eh, too lazy to head to the shop for a jar of yeast, got everything I need here!", so I'm glad to see the other way round isn't losing people too much flavor. Now, for me to rustle up a nice thermometer so I can finally use that temperature technique of yours!

[@jacqulineard140]

I think everyone has different ideas of what laziness is. I would rather drive to the closest food market for a pickup order of bread, lol. I just park, sit there for a moment, receive my bread, and leave. I don't have to think.

[@goodfty]

​@@jacqulineard140 I wouldn't call that lazy, I would say that's just sad, more expensive, restricting, devoid of love and life. Then again I don't know your life, maybe you have a lot to think about and it's a hassle. We here in this community enjoy baking so your comment is just sad to see.

[@Jeepy2-LoveToBake]

I completed the Sourdough vs Yeast comparison this afternoon. Results were similar if not exactly the same as yours - pretty cool!! Photos have been posted - dough prep and baked results. Thanks again for inspiring me to try this comparison.

[@davidklinger6105]

Really interesting (as usual). Thanks for the great content.

[@phoebebaker1575]

Nice! A thoughtful comparison.

[@lisaboban]

Charlie you are so brave. The dedicated sourdough posse is sure to be out in force. But what I like about your channel is that you make bread baking accessible to everyone. People who have the time and equipment to make complicated sourdough bread will feel at home here, but so will the basic bread bakers just trying to make a tasty loaf. I've been baking bread for decades and I've learned tons from your videos. Thanks for sharing your passion and expertise with us all.

[@duskodozet4573]

Excellent idea. Biga makes huge changes in my baking thanking to you.

[@Sanrolino]

Nice video! I personally love both. Specially when baking weekly it's good to vary.

[@Jim181059]

I've been thinking about this for a while now - you've inspired me to try this method out - thank you. What I really need is to work out a combination of this and the cold fermentation methods you've shown recently.

[@luizwaguim]

Muito bom, parabéns!

[@wombat5334]

very cool video. Thanks for that!

[@SpencerPullenPhotography]

Thanks for making this video. I’ve made bread both ways. Since I work a lot, I find it easier to make the preferment the day ahead and my family likes the flavor. Keep up the great work!

[@PeteFindsObscureStuff]

I've used a biga and other preferments and made sourdough in the past and to my palette they are so close. Another great video Charlie. Cheers

[@catpawsandplay]

Chain baker you videos are always so good and infornative thank you! Also waiting for a video id ever you havw time to do a comparison of No time dough method and straight dough method!

[@Jeepy2-LoveToBake]

Great comparison video - results are very interesting!! My brother's fav bread is your Pain Rustique - I'll make this later this week and share the comparison with him. Thanks for sharing this fun comparison video.

[@eduloyola]

Thanks for the video. Very interesting. Differences are very little. Surprisingly!

[@Reinolds_Recipes]

Love it, your videos make me hungry as usual :) keep sharing please… I’m subscribed to your channel 😀

[@jakemitchell1671]

Fantastic video! Thank you. I love cooking bread, and so many friends and family ask me to cook it for them I find myself cooking bread almost every day! I do slightly prefer sourdough, but for me TIME is a huge consideration. Also, I'm not very good at maintaining things, so trying to keep a starter healthy takes more time and effort than it's worth. I've decided to use yeast for my go-to method, and I'll use sourdough starter for special occasions.

[@thiccchad6690]

To get the sour taste in the yeast loaf you could dehydrate your sour dough starter and grind it into a powder

[@alexandersalamon7242]

I love it that’s the good one! I never had done comparison side-by-side. today I am baking using commercial yeast with overnight proofing for a better flavor. Usually I’m not going over 24 hours from the moment I start.

[@DemonessofRedSnow]

I absolutely love your videos. I’ve worked as a professional baker for the last 12 or so years but I’m still learning new things every day. I have a poolish/preferment question that I hope you might be able to answer. I’m currently working in an artisan bread bakery and we use a preferment that we call a “poolish”, but I’ve come to realize it doesn’t really fit the definition (100% flour 100% water .25% yeast) Our recipe is 100% flour, 75% water, and 75% old dough (usually a white dough that we mixed that day and had extra) We mix it at the end of the day and then put it in the cooler until the next shift (16-18 hours). It results in a light, shiny ‘dough’ with a nice fermented smell. Depending on the recipe, it could be 20-35% of the flour weight. I can’t find anything online with a similar preferment. It’s like a low hydration poolish meeting a pâte fermentée? Have you ever come across anything similar? And if not, would you be willing to try out this unconventional preferment?

[@DemonessofRedSnow]

I forgot to add, the yeast % (dry instant) in the dough that is mixed in is between 1.25-1.5%

[@ChainBaker]

That sounds really interesting. A poolish/pate fermentee hybrid. Never tried it before. I will add it to my projects list :)

[@DemonessofRedSnow]

@@ChainBaker Ah! I’m so happy you saw my comment! ^-^ Let me know if you end up trying something similar!

[@stinkybad8261]

Nice

[@viralamin5568]

In my experience, commercial yeast does not break down the gluten. Sourdough does. I think it's the bacteria which you mentioned and which commercial yeast doesn't have. I had to learn how to control my sourdough to provide the right balance of yeast and bacteria, which I believe creates acids that break down the gluten. Sourdough can give you a much different product depending on the amount of bacteria. Commercial yeast seems to preserve the gluten keeping it strong, which might be better for rise. Commercial yeast might also provide the desired texture, say for croissants.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

Hi Viral - I've done a post above explaining how to control your starter and its acidity. It's only the bones, but I hope its helpful. Good baking to you :)

[@viralamin5568]

@@kevinu.k.7042 Thanks for pointing me to it. I appreciate the temperatures especially. I didn't reckon properly with that factor. You've motivated me to experiment more.

[@gabrielpichorim8191]

I did this experiment with 65% hidration bread with sourdough and poolish and my results were exactly like yours here. Taste, texture, everything! Amazing how much consistent both tries were!

[@hellie_el]

brilliant! thank you. :)

[@sfs122450]

Really superb technique and knowledge. Thanks for all you do to increase and enhance the canon. Steven Schroeder near Little Rock Arkansas US

[@ChainBaker]

Cheers, Steven!

[@madisonm.919]

I love your videos I definitely learn a lot! I was wondering if you have done or can do a comparison of the difference in bread when you use a sourdough starter at different times. How to control the time before the leaven is ready to use. Also how to make cold ferment work with sourdough starter in dough. Thanks again for all the amazing videos you do. Hope you have a great day!

[@ChainBaker]

Cheers! :) It is difficult to tell with a starter since they vary so much and it depends on the conditions of the environment too. You will only learn this by practicing.

[@moonriverman9515]

It’s one of my favorite method with high hydration the dough’s so loose and silky right ? I appreciate you 👌🏾

[@lisaboban]

Thanks!

[@ChainBaker]

Cheers! ✌

[@shloomyshloms]

I made faux sourdough bread with yeast and plain yoghurt tasted pretty good.

[@krazyolie]

I’ve done slow rise with yeast preferment, and found the same thing. You can get a strong yeasty flavour which compliments white flour, or also semolina, with this. Whereas the sourness in sourdough tends to complement the more complex flavour of whole grain flours. The yeast is more forgiving, it won’t really overferment in the same way,

[@lbamusic]

A great comparison...also ive tried combining yst with sd starter - to get the best of both worlds...terrific combo

[@Rob_430]

Yes, I normally use all sourdough, but have spiked my dough with just a pinch of yeast. My hybrid loaves are the best!

[@carolschedler3832]

Me too. I love the flavor from the starter and long fermentation plus the predictable outcome of adding half teaspoon of yeast.

[@sourdoughhome2571]

When we were selling at a farmers market we had a poolish based white bread which some customers inisted had to be sourdough based. It wasn't. Just poolish. Most of our breads were sourdough based, so I suspect those customers were having their expectations fulfilled.

[@rowdog6376]

Hi Charlie. New to the channel and enjoying the vids. I tried this a few months ago with a poolish and fermented it for hours and it worked out really well however my sourdough efforts to date have all come unstuck.

[@ChainBaker]

Sourdough is something you must practice a lot. Get to know you starter. See how it reacts to certain conditions and in time you will master it. I've never been super successful with it, but then again I lost interest pretty quickly 😅

[@KufluPeynir42]

Wonderful comparison, thank you for this video. I can imagine the most significant difference is the flavor and the health benefits. Though (this might be a specific question) I wonder how you experienced digestion of the two breads?

[@ChainBaker]

For me, sourdough bread seems to be much more digestive.

[@kleineroteHex]

My daughter's german bread recipe calls for Apple cider vinegar to give it that sourdough flavor, works pretty well.

[@lenadelaney4533]

Great video!! Any thoughts of trying the opposite for a comparison? Trying to make the sourdough cooperate like yeast to make a soft and fluffy bread?

[@ChainBaker]

Fermenting quickly and baking on the same day, adding fat and perhaps scalding would do that.

[@lenadelaney4533]

​@@ChainBaker Thanks for the tips!!

[@JohnBau]

Love this comparison, just now found it and don't know how I missed it before. So... amount of yeast used is a) proportional to final dough size and b) inversely proprtional to fermentation time? Is that a good way to think about it?

[@ChainBaker]

That's it! Of course there are other variables such as temperature, hydration and the type of flour and other ingredients in the dough that can speed up or slow down fermentation. Trial and error is the only real way of finding out exactly.

[@munjee2]

I kinda did achieve similar results to sour dough with commercial yeast, once I put dough in the fridge for a cold proof but the plans changed and I left home for over a week, when I cane back it had a similar smell and taste to sour dough, though not quite the same, the structure was not the best, I saved a part of it, every now and then I use it instead of stater when I forgot to take it out of the fridge or feed it, it certainly get the job done just not quite the same

[@zhoubroadwell8574]

I love the little glasses you use, where can I find them? 🙏

[@ChainBaker]

They're Nutella jars.

[@zhoubroadwell8574]

@@ChainBaker Thank you!

[@meri9943]

Hey, nice to see you back. :) What is the purpose of such a particular final shaping? Is it only aesthetics or is there a function to it?

[@ChainBaker]

It's for aesthetics as well as for creating a greater crust/crumb ratio. The bread is crispier than a tall loaf.

[@meri9943]

Oh, thank you. Hats off to your perseverance in replying to our comments!

[@richleonard55]

The bread I make most frequently is a sourdough miche, but the last time I baked it the starter was a little sleepy and I wanted to hurry things up a bit. So I used the usual amount of starter and added the appropriate proportion of dried yeast for the amount of flour. The fermentation time was of course shorter than it would have been with just the sourdough starter, but the results were interesting. The baked loaf had all the flavour of the 100 percent sourdough version, but the crumb was a bit lighter and softer. The crust was also a bit crisper and thinner. Rise was about the same. Sometimes I find my usual miche a bit tougher than I'd like, so combining the sourdough levain and dried yeast to get a lighter texture is something I'll persevere with, since I still got all the flavour. Have you done a video on fermentation time and the effect on the chewiness of the crumb and crust? Longer seems to mean chewier etc.

[@ChainBaker]

I cover it somewhat in this video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKa8l6h4qrSpfc0 But yes that is definitely a fact. The longer the dough ferments the chewier the bread.

[@rowdog6376]

Made the yeasted one yesterday out of interest and it was like a sourdough. Today the sourdough biga. It tripled over 12 hours and the whole thing is bulk fermenting now. I’m going to put it in the fridge overnight. Bake tomorrow.

[@Sklikucs]

Great video, could you possibly do a malt loaf (soreen) recipe? I've tried a couple but they come out too light, not all squidgy and dark.

[@ChainBaker]

I've never made it, but I'll add it to my list. Cheers! :)

[@hollytreeislandhollytreeis910]

@@ChainBaker Yes Please! I tried Paul Hollywood's malt loaf recipe but nothing like the ribsticking suidgy loaf I remember!

[@johnykiller51]

again a super comparison loving it could you allso ad the solod to your webshop I'm hoping to make the borodinsky bread again but we not even find it in riga on the market instead I bought a pot iesala ekstrakts but this is liquid and I don't know how much I have to ad

[@ChainBaker]

I have tried fining it on amazon, but I can't seem to see it anywhere. Try using 5% of the extract and see how it turns out. Then move from there and adjust if need be.

[@johnykiller51]

thanks I will try

[@crystalcfm3865]

Hi there, I was watching your video for the first time. Thank you for the great information. I wonder if you have information as to the sugar spike level for long fermented yeast bread as compared with sourdough. Will it have similar benefit for diabetes persons as the sourdough bread ? I am learning to make sourdough bread but it is very challenging. I hope to find alternative to bake breads which are suitable for diabetes persons.

[@ChainBaker]

I'm not sure about that because I have not researched it. But sourdough should generally be better than yeast bread even with long fermentation.

[@quakerwildcat]

Charlie, I haven’t read through all the comments, but have you seen the no-knead recipe developed by Cook’s Illustrated some years ago? They experimented with various techniques to try to replicate the flavor of sourdough bread using yeast, and they landed on a formula that substituted beer and vinegar for sone of the water. I recall that it was 4 oz. of beer and a tablespoon of white vinegar for what was otherwise a standard no-knead recipe, with 18-24 hours of fermentation. I tried it a long time ago with sone success before learning to make better breads that aren’t no-knead, but I’ve considered taking one of my newer yeast bread recipes with a preferment and trying it with a little beer and vinegar. This inspires me to maybe remember to give it a try next time.

[@ChainBaker]

That sounds like it could make it taste like it! I'll give it a try someday 😎

[@rb-ex]

first of all, experiment aside, those are beautiful rustic loaves, and no i dont think you need to score them. scoring is a way of relieving pressure from the tight gluten 'skin' and encouraging oven spring by giving the expanding dough somewhere to go. the whole point of this rustic style of loaf is you dont tighten the loaf with shaping and therefore the loaf expands freely in all directions, resulting in maximum volume and a light, soft crumb. the french way i've seen is to lay it out kinda like you did and then fold it over itself once, dust, cover and then leave it alone (sur la planche). i like what you showed us with cutting off those pieces and placing them underneath-- i'm going to try that. i have also done it with just laying the dough down and not manipulating at all it before it goes into the oven for a pain rustique difforme. ya, i just made up the silly name as far as the experiment, the results are exactly in line with my experience. sourdough is sourdough, but any long, slow fermentation with tiny amounts of commercial yeast by just about any method you can think of will yield a lovely, complex, sour quality, noticeably more digestible than fast-risen bread, but not quite reaching the depth of flavor and sourness you get with a sourdough culture. and while you're right there is no bacteria in yeast while sourdough is packed with bacteria, bacterial action will develop in any long fermentation, especially at room temp. i dont see this often said, but to my palate breads slow-risen with yeast or preferment, like baguettes, are also sweet with a sour finish final note: if you want more of a crust on those rustic loaves out of a home oven, you can cover them with an inverted lasagne pan for the first 2/3 of baking thanks for yet another beautifully produced and informative video

[@kevinu.k.7042]

Great video! What it tells me, I think, is that good method is more important to master than the choice of leaven. I think another takeaway, for me, is that the goal is to put a decent loaf on the table and choices between yeast and sourdough are less important. Your Rustic shaping trick with the trimmings underneath is so very smart. Did you come up with that? It had me chuckling away. 😁 Two very fine loaves! And an excellent experiment and I so agree, a well made bread of any kind is great. 👍 *Here are some background techie notes for those who might like them:* Commercial yeast such as Instant, Fleischmann's, Active and fresh are all broadly the same in their yeast makeup. The yeast in them are highly selected strains of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, which is a particular group of yeasts. They double their population about every two hours and produce very high levels of CO2 quickly for a given yeast population. In commercial baking the idea is to inflate the dough as quickly as possible. Fermentation is not the prime consideration for these bakers. In many smaller commercial bakeries the bulk ferment time can be as short as fifteen minutes as all of the gluten development is done with high speed mixing. Which is one of the reasons commercial bread is sometimes bloating and flavourless. (Studies have been done on this). Some of the fermentation processes make the gluten more digestible and flavours are brewed in just like with a beer. Longer fermentation times allow for these processes to take place. Saccharomyces Cerevisiae is less tolerant of acidic mediums so it tends not to be found in Sourdough Starters. However a dough is unlikely to become too acidic for them to perform well. So, adding things like buttermilk and sour cream is not an issue. Sourdough yeasts are dominated by the Cerivicae Milleri group of yeasts, but there can be as many as a couple of hundred other yeasts in the starter as well. C. Milleri double their population about every 90 minutes. They ferment slower and so less CO2 is produced per minute compared to commercial yeasts. Saccharomyces cerevisiae doesn't thrive so well in a sourdough starter because of the acidity. So over time it tends to be pushed out by the C.Milleri group. Please, do not buy expensive 'ancient' starters. The yeasts from the wheat you feed your starter with will quickly displace those you bought. Again, studies have been done on this. Fermentation is a lot more than breaking sugars and starches down to produce CO2. There are dozens of other processes involved with all sorts of enzymes doing things to the dough too. Some of which have not yet been fully explained despite the hundreds of millions of $ spent exploring the processes. It is rather complex! Whichever yeast source we use the key to a good flavoursome bread is slow fermentation which allows other enzymatic processes time to do their work. The bacteria's Charlie referred to are of course the Lactobacillus group. They make lactic acid which is where the 'sour' in sourdough mainly comes from. However they do many other things as well. Weirdly yeast and LABS (the scientific term for this group of lactobacilli) actually work together each breaking starches and sugars down into things that the other prefers. The end product when the two are present might not taste that different sometimes, but it is considered by many to be more digestible and the flavour palette deeper and more complex. There is considerable research showing that the gluten is more digestible when the bread is made using a sourdough culture. There is little or no LAB activity when commercial yeast is used on it's own. A new sourdough starter can take up to four weeks for the LABS to get established. They will move in on their own from the bakers hands (yes - that is where they mostly come from!) and the surrounding air. A note on contamination. Yeast produces alcohol which most pathological bacteria cannot tolerate. LABS do tolerate it. LABS produce lactic acid, which most pathological microbes cannot tolerate. Yeast does tolerate the acidity. Together they protect the starter from those fungi and microbes that might make us ill. Another bit of bread magic. The LABS found is a sourdough starter are of different varieties to those found in yoghurt. The LABS in yoghurt specialise in metabolising milk proteins and they are less able to metabolise flour. Flour LABS take up to about four weeks to colonise a new sourdough starter. Having said this some research has been done adding Yoghurt culture (not the yoghurt itself) into a white dough and they found a significant improvement in the flavour and an increase in acidity. I have no evidence suggesting that the Yoghurt LABS collaborate with bread yeasts though. Most Bread Specialist biochemist reports state that Yoghurt LABS have specialised in fermenting milk and are unsuitable for flour. There is room to experiment here? Adding some culture might be a possible way to go. However if live yoghurt is added it will give a softer crumb because of the casein. Room for a Charlie experiment there? 👍 *Managing Yeast, bread fermentation and starters* Sourdough yeasts generally prefer a slightly lower temperature than commercial yeasts. Here are the key temperature windows for commercial yeasts: 20 C - 27 C Most Favourable Range For Yeast to Multiply 26 C Optimum multiplication of Yeast 27 C - 30 C Optimum Fermentation Range _These are the windows commercial bakers use._ We might choose lower temperatures to increase the fermentation period. I understand that many French Artisan bakeries opt for about 24 C. *Managing the acidity of a sourdough starter.* There are two factors we can use. Hydration and temperature. The lower the hydration of the starter the more yeasts will dominate and the LABS, which make the lactic acid will take a back seat. Some bakers prefer an 80% hydration for this reason. I prefer the simple arithmetic of a 100% hydration and use temperature as my controlling factor. Bigas, with the lowest hydration, produce the least acidic sourdoughs. Here are the key temperatures for C.Milleri they are a good rough guide for commercial yeasts too. 4 C - 6 C very little activity for yeast and LABS 18 C - 20 C Yeast is at 50% activity and LABS are just as active, but are at 30% of their potential activity. 24 C - 26 C - This is the sourdough sweet spot. Yeasts are at 100% of their activity at about 26 C and LABS are equally active at 60% of their potential activity. Above 26 C - Yeast activity continues at it's peek activity and LAB activity continues to increase - We are entering the acidic loaf window. Above 28 C - Yeast starts to decline in activity and LABS continue to increase their activity. LABS are now at 85% of their peak activity. 31 C the activity of east begins to decline rapidly with rising temperature and is at about 85% active. LABS are at peak activity between about 31 C - 35C 33 C Yeast is at 50% activity and LABS are still at 100% Activity 36 C Yeast is at 0% activity and LABS have declined to 75% activity. 41 C LABS at 0% Activity From this we can see that by keeping the sourdough starter at 30 - 31C we can diminish yeast activity and increase LAB activity which increases sour flavours in the bread. Some commercial bakeries use this to get high lactic acid, low yeast starters and then inoculate their commercially yeasted breads with it and sell it as sourdough! By keeping the dough at 26 C we will have maximum fermentation speed and reasonable loaf acidity. I'm not to keen on acidic loaves so I try to ferment the dough between 24 C and 28 C. In the summer this might involve popping the dough in the fridge for 15 minutes before the next coil folding and then the temperature of the dough is equalised with the coil folding afterwards. Which reminds me another advantage of a sourdough preferment is that it is it's slight acidity this has all sorts of effects on the enzymes in the flour which benefits the whole brewing process. So if just using commercial yeast using some buttermilk can be an advantage, but the residual casein in it will give a softer crumb too. I sometimes add a pinch of instant yeast if my starter isn't at peak performance. It's handy stuff. It's referred to as 'fairy dust' in our house. And, as Charlie has illustrated, a yeasted preferment produces a good loaf too and when the chips are down using just yeast and even doubling the quantity to speed the dough up and make it fit into the time schedule is better than no bread on the table. Anything is better than supermarket bread. Lastly, I keep a very small amount of sourdough starter in the fridge. All Yeast and LAB activity is pretty much stalled. I feed it six to twelve hours before my bake and the little left over afterwards goes straight back into my fridge. I don't need discards. Keeping the sourdough starter on the side at room temperature means the yeasts and LABS are active and you are much more likely to get an over acid preferment. Yeast in these conditions produce acetic acid too. If ever you do get an over acidic starter just take 50g of it and feed it 50g of water and 50g of flour. The discard will have most of the acid in it and you have pretty much started from fresh. I hope this is of some interest to some folk. Thanks for another A1 video Charlie. 😁👍

[@countfleet2976]

Awesome info Kevin, I'm always on the lookout for your comments as they're always very handy

[@viralamin5568]

"Anything is better than supermarket bread." My feeling is the same.

[@viralamin5568]

@Kevin U.K. Thanks for posting the temps. I didn't understand the relationship between temperature and yeast and LABS. This will lead me to experiment more and control the flavor and texture. I do find in the summer, it's kind of a struggle against LABS from taking over.

[@Quibus777]

talk about a thoroughly informative post! thank you! Way back in my brewing days a senior researcher at Heineken told me they were working on a process that would just use the enzymes and cut out the yeast for a faster cleaner process, I don't think it came to fruition. If one day those commercial parties and universities could combine the knowledge we would know so much more of all the intricate processes and dependencies (and a lot more PhDs would roam the world :D) but often its all secret and locked away in privately held organisations even if research did not lead to products.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

@@countfleet2976 Thanks, :) Just a heads up. Now I am fully awake I have edited it with better information. Good baking to you. 👍

[@MoPoppins]

I just partially-watched a video featuring a middle-aged fashion influencer named Alpha, AND HE TALKS LIKE THIS…JUST YELLS THE ENTIRE TIME! I watch some vids on fashion, so the KZbin algorithm recommended it to me. What a refreshing contrast you are, Charlie-very chill, positive & loving! 🙏 🥰 🥖 Maybe that guy needs to do more dough-kneading & bread-baking to R E L A X a bit! 😂

[@ChainBaker]

Cheers 😁

[@valeriybaibossynov2690]

It will be cool to see difference of sour dough vs second chance sour dough levian + yest

[@ChainBaker]

I might try that someday ✌️

[@ahmadhadidoun7162]

For me comparing sourdough with active yeast is just like comparing a compact camera to a DSLR 🤣🤣 I'm still learning! Thank you for sharing!

[@ChainBaker]

Some of the best photography in history was done using far inferior technology than what we have nowadays. I think baking is the same because the result is in the hands of the baker and not necessarily up to the ingredients. Of course, they do help 😁

[@ahmadhadidoun7162]

@@ChainBaker You all right!

[@alexandersalamon7242]

I would like to ask you a question. Can you please make bread using commercial yeast and sourdough starter using hundred percent whole wheat spelt flour? I am struggling with that one and I don’t know what I’m doing wrong I just baked one today the third attempt, came out very tied. Not much better effects using commercial yeast either I did have some troubles with acorn ancient grain flour. I have much better results when I’m adding 30% of spelt and rest of it regular strong bread flour my spelt flour has almost 14 g of protein however does not build strong gluten structure it is very sticky and I’m trying to keep hydration on about 70% - 73%

[@G4CEFITNESS]

Great video. I've always wanted to see if I could make a "sourdough" bread with yeast and you did it! Can make a bread using Apple Cider Vinegar? Will it impart an apple flavor without using apple juice? Just a suggestion. Thank you for your great videos. Looking forward to the next one.

[@ChainBaker]

I will do some vinegar experiments for sure. Cheers! :)

[@janetgerney2094]

I have heard from several sources that some bakeries use apple cider vinegar in their doughs to replicate the sour taste, which is sold as 'sourdough'..... I'd be very interested to see any experiments in that direction. Incidentally, I never buy loaves of sourdough, I just make my own. I have for years. Cheers! Love your videos!

[@Quibus777]

the longer you let dough/biga do its thing the more micro organismen from the air will enter and do their thing.If i make a starter from an unwashed mixing bowl while it stands next to the milk- and water kefir the end result is much more like sourdough then when i use the same technique and place the bowl 20m away from all the stuff I have with acid creating bacteria. A long biga with a spoon of living yoghurt/kefir will be almost the same as old fashioned sourdough. I dont like sourdough too open crumb and tangy, so this i how i learned how to reuse the last bits of dough from a mixing bowl, graduately growing the yeast back into it, i now know the proper location to leave the bowl while bringing the yeast back to a baking session volume. As a sidenote, some Dutch bakers use sourdough powder to give the resulting loaves the right flavor (and price :( ) while just using plain old yeast , techniques and timings. A cool and tasty way to get a sourdough started is getting yourself a nice Geuze Belgian beer (brand Boon is very good), its beer from wild fermentation and a sour tangyness to it, pour it gently, leave 1cm of beer and use that to start a starter, its all natural Belgian microorganisms :) saves two days in getting a starter going compared to starting from scratch.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

Nice post - Thanks :)

[@MsLincos]

Gonna try the beer idea. Thanks!🙂

[@kevinu.k.7042]

An excellent video. I'm afraid I have very different results. As you say Natural Leavens (Sourdough in N. America - They typically make theirs sour, in Europe the norm is not to make them sour), get more flavour because of the Lactobacilli, which both add their own flavour and by producing lactic acid make a more acidic dough which develops more flavour by reacting with the alcohol produced by the Yeast. OTOH yeast does not develop as much acidity even with cold fermentation and a preferment. So it simply cannot do those same acidic reactions to produce so much flavour. The Natural leaven loaf you made did seem to have a more open crumb. The additional acids causes the gluten to deteriorate more. Which is why cold proofing a natural leaven breads needs to be done cautiously. I wonder, was that a new natural leaven developed just for this test? It takes some four weeks for the lactobacilli to become established. Could it be you were comparing natural yeast to commercial yeast? And, as you say slow fermented commercial yeast bread develops so much more flavour than direct baking. I agree taste preference is the final arbiter. Though I would reverse you statement. My natural leaven breads could pass for more flavourful yeast breads. 😁 Whatever, the breads look excellent - I shall check it out on your website. I could do with eating that. Thanks for another great video. 👍 An afterthought: I am surprised that no commercial yeast maker has yet marketed a Dried Yeast and Lactobacilli product. And, oh B***ks - I have just seen this is a year ols and I have already commented. Well, these thoughts are new. Please forgive me. 😁

[@joannestretch]

Ive always wanted to try a mix of both and ferment a bread with a tiny amount of yeast and a small amount of sourdough starter too. I like the more even crumb of the yeast bread but the flavor of sourdough and the health benefits too, and sourdough alone gives me more of a too chewy for my liking and i prefer a crumb that is less wild, what do you think have you ever tried this yourself amazing Charlie?

[@ChainBaker]

I've never tried that, but I know that it is quite common practice. Best of both worlds I guess :)

[@joannestretch]

@@ChainBaker could be your next experiment ;)

[@sherrymiller804]

I’ve been trying to find instructions on making (sourdough) yeast cake leaven. It’s and old way to make sourdough starter into dry little biscuit sized cakes that you rehydrate in water then add it to your recipe. An easy old way to keep a sourdough starter with no feedings and no discards and no refrigeration

[@ChainBaker]

I'd spread the starter in a thin layer on some baking paper, let it dry and then grind it to a powder. That could be easily stored and would be easy to add into recipes too.

[@raglanheuser1162]

i wonder if further cold proofing would make the yeast bread taste anymore like the sourdough?

[@ChainBaker]

It certainly would. A long cold proof can make it taste even more intense.

[@jayhom5385]

My sourdough starter never seems to develop here. When I lived100km south I had one that worked all right. So I just treat it as a dough fortifier for flavor (it tastes good, just doesn't leaven well) and add yeast to rise.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

Hi Jay How disappointing for you. You've clearly got a solution and I occasionally dose my sourdough starter up with a little yeast too. Have you tried making a 'sourdough starter' with commercial yeast? Without going into to the tech of it too deeply. A commercial yeast is very vigorous and it has the strength to stop undesirable microorganisms moving in. However over time the yeast on the wheat flour will displace it and helpful microorganisms will move it too. Think of it like letting a car run downhill to get the engine started. The other thing is to use wholemeal flour as your starter feed. It has a lot more wild yeast in it than white flour does. I hope this isn't unwanted info. Good baking to you! :)

[@cablenetworksystems]

I will go with yeast

[@madguitarist63]

I feel like commercial yeast helps you learn when a bread has properly risen and is ready for baking. It's hard with sourdough, which can vary a lot more, to know it's properly proof without some experience knowing what to look for

[@58harwood]

That has been my experience Steven! I struggled trying to start this journey with a sourdough starter! Frustrating is an understatement! Once I got a few key concepts down, the dominoes start falling in place. At least for me! 👍I’m still nowhere near where I’d like to be but, at least my current mistakes are still pretty edible! 😎

[@myshinobi1987]

I was always under the false impression that you cannot use sourdough starter and commercial yeast together. I was told that the commercial yeast would eat the sourdough culture. Until I recently found a baguette recipe from King Arthur flour which uses both a sourdough levain (pre ferment) and a small amount of commercial yeast together in the same recipe. The results are amazing.

[@ChainBaker]

Oh yes starter for flavour and yeast for the rise 💪

[@drviagrin3798]

Does it make a difference using plastic wrap vs a cheesecloth to cover the bread during the proofing process?

[@ChainBaker]

No at all. Use what you prefer.

[@drviagrin3798]

@@ChainBaker Thank you!

[@tabita7081]

May I ask brand of the bracelet?

[@ChainBaker]

No brand. I just found it on Ebay. I think it came from Thailand.

[@AJAA2916]

What if you mix both of em? Preferment with starter

[@goattactics]

It's pretty common for bakers to do that. The yeast makes a lighter loaf and the sour culture brings the flavor

[@ChainBaker]

Totally! 👍

[@oxigen85]

Is it possible to cultivate a commencial yeast culture, similarly to the sourdough culture?

[@ChainBaker]

There is a method similar to it called paté fermenteé. I showed it in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/e52td6xudqiqe6M

[@oxigen85]

@@ChainBaker thank you for answering!

[@richrogers2157]

Charlie, I’m too darn lazy, to much of a loafer, i can’t keep a gold fish much less a starter pet. So I use commercial yeast, machines and extended ferments in the refrigerator instead.

[@michunel7022]

IMPORANT QUESTION. From what I know: 1) sourdough starter is acidic, and so only specific lactose bacteria’s and yeasts can survive there, that are mostly harmless. 2) yeast long [cold] fermentation is not acidic, so all types of microorganisms can live there and produce toxins until baked. So: 1) Is it true that long [cold] yeast fermentation can be harmful? 2) Can it be fixed by adding bacteria’s or acids together with yeast? 3) Does acidity somehow improve bread except flavor? BTW this is a very good topic for a video, and ideally should include some microbiology with microscope.

[@ChainBaker]

There is a slight acidity even with commercial yeast, but it's not even close to SD. I've fermented yeast dough in the fridge for weeks with no issues. Here's a video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKa8l6h4qrSpfc0

[@michunel7022]

@@ChainBaker Issues with baking - yes, but issues with toxins can be investigated only by special tests. Some people can be fine with eating them, some get health problems immediately, some - after years of eating. And especially vulnerable are pregnant and children.

[@ChainBaker]

@michunel7022 can you point me in the direction of any resources covering this specifically when it comes to bread making? I've never heard of it.

[@michunel7022]

@@ChainBaker I’ve personally seen such info only about sourdough staters, smith like kzbin.infowYSxieMKNs4?si=bmBoUzRVWXCgaxuP But as I said, it is acidic and most microorganisms that can live there are harmless. And even there there are plenty of different organisms that behave differently, as said in the video. And also you usually add not more than 20% of starter, while long yeast bulk fermentation considers using the whole amount of dough. But have never seen such information about usual dough. Also, most of yeast recipes usually consider very fast fermenting. And just common sense tells me that keeping product for very long, even in the fridge, may lead to its contamination. And also I’ve raised another questions: 1) does it make sense to add some acid to the dough? Factory yeast bread often contains lactic acid. 2) does sourness make the bread somehow healthier? I’ve heard that yes but not sure that it is true.

[@ChainBaker]

@michunel7022 that could be said about anything you keep in the fridge then. When it comes to acidity and preventing harmful bacteria from developing usually it comes up when people discuss sourdough starters alone. They can be kept for months without spoiling and that is where the acid really comes in handy. Commercial yeast dough is never left to sit for that long nor does it need to be, so you'll not run into a situation where it goes off. There is no need to add anything 👍

[@sake9179]

I never expected that it would be so close to real sourdough bread. I still side with the natural yeast and bacteria over the store bought yeast. I got a video idea/a question, could you do a video where you autolyse a bread different durations and see how it affects the bread. Online I keep getting different results, some say don’t do it over an hour or else it would end up as a sticky weak dough. Some say maximum time you can do is 8 hours at room temperature but it can be longer on fridge. I have made two sourdough breads that barely rose which have been autolysed for around 11-12 hours, didn’t come out that well…

[@ChainBaker]

I will definitely do some autolyse comparisons in the future. As far as I can tell there is no need to let the dough hydrate for any more than an hour or so.

[@sake9179]

@@ChainBaker I also think that 1 hour does the job but I had looked over many recipes that varied and I was like what?!? why!? Anyways baking is an just experimenting with different things

[@yagodarkmoon]

I wonder what would happen if you added a super tiny amount (just a drop or two) of vinegar to the yeast dough. Could it mimic the acidity of the sourdough?

[@ChainBaker]

I am planning to make a video about vinegar. Never used in bread before I must say.

[@mikearst2940]

What effect is the stiffness of the starter likely to have on the process?

[@mikearst2940]

I tried something slightly related to your subject here. I started with a popular no-knead recipe by Jim Leahy: only 1/4 tsp of yeast and a bulk rise of 12 to 16 hours. 70% hydration. The no-knead recipe had produced a tasty bread in the past. The crumb was the best I'd made so far. I wondered if I could use starter instead of yeast. I duplicated the recipe but with starter at about 10% of the total flour volume. I gave it a 15-hour bulk rise. (I also did an autolyse of about 1 hour before I added the salt.) Unfortunately I am not good at evaluating bulk fermentation. The yeasted dough had tripled in volume and had been super active: there were tons of small bubbles on the top. With the starter test there was a similar tripling of volume but no such bubble activity. I could see some large bubbles under the surface but they did not get to the surface. So I kept waiting... Pre shaping wasn't too hard. But strangely, after about a 15 minute bench rest the dough relaxed so much that it became sloppy and hard to handle for the final shaping. Not sure what happened there. It ended up overproofed and produced a somewhat flat loaf. But the flavor was good and in spite of the overproofing the crumb wasn't ruined. It was only slightly too moist on the first day after it was cut open. The taste was good: distinctly sour. (Overproofing is always my major problem and I have yet to get really good oven spring.) I think the next test should be slightly increasing the amount of starter and decreasing the bulk rise time to 11 hours or less. Anyway, despite problems it seemed like a decent proof of concept. A friend who is an expert baker suggested that next time I leave out the diastatic malt powder (I had used about 1/2 tsp). I like what it does for the color but I'm not sure if it helps with the rise.

[@warmesuppe]

Have a look on the video from breadcode

[@ChainBaker]

The stiffness of the starter definitely plays a role. Especially if we're taking about a starter that has either fermented properly or over fermented. An over fermented starter could be broken down and looser and it would in turn make the final dough looser and runnier. That could have been the issue.

[@akhduke]

can a sourdough bread be baked in a tin? I tried it myself and wasn't to happy with the out come. what would be your suggestion

[@ChainBaker]

Definitely. It can be baked exactly the same way as commercial yeast dough. What was the issue exactly?

[@akhduke]

@@ChainBaker the bread didn’t rise enough and ended up really dense and tough, it did cooked though, but was tough to chew. I assumed the tin restricted its oven spring.

[@ChainBaker]

It should not. Perhaps it was just an unsuccessful bake in terms of fermentation. Give it a go again. Make sure your leaven is nice and active. I'm sure it will be better next time 💪

[@akhduke]

@@ChainBaker it could be I’m going to give it another go. Cheers. ✊

[@davidotoole9328]

"Toothsome" is good chewy.

[@goattactics]

I regularly make a bread with yeast that takes 24 hours start to finish. It is very aromatic and tastes great but you just can't get the flavor that lactic acid bacteria brings.

[@sheilam4964]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@robinthomsoncomposer]

One of my sourdough FaceBook group members came up with an interesting observation. She noticed you used your hands to knead both doughs. You will get yeast/bacteria from the first dough on your hands and then will transfer some of that to the other so the result of the comparison is not maybe as accurate as it might have been?

[@ChainBaker]

I washed my hands thoroughly and the amount of yeast was so minute that the risk of heavy contamination was minimal I'd say.

[@robinthomsoncomposer]

@@ChainBaker ok thanks for that

[@dietrevich]

The thing is to me it doesn't make sense to use less yeast if you are trying to develop flavor. The flavor is produced by the yeast consuming the flour sugars. So the more yeast the more flavor, of course, you are not gonna dump spoonfuls of yeast, there is a limit, but using little yeast makes no sense. The controlling factor for flavor is temperature, the flavor profile changes a bit at different Temps. I always do a poolish with 1g yeast per 100 g flour fermented for 3 hrs at room temp( ~75°F) then leave in the fridge to use the next day or up to 3 to 5 days later.

[@ChainBaker]

I don't think I could wait 5 days for my bread to be ready 😄 It would be interesting to compare the flavour of the bread made with my method vs yours.

[@bass679]

My wife and kids aren't super into the sourdough flavor. This might be a nice way to meet in the middle.

[@markusmunklinde8336]

I have to say that since a couple of years ago when I worked too much and got sick from fatigue syndrom I had to rethink baking. Sourdough was just too much pressure on my mental health with all the steps necessary to keep it alive. I switched to yeast and l realized that it made my life so much easier. Glad to see that you compare these methods and that there is hope to making good bread. Funny note, my aunt was on a visit here and she had sent me some articles on sourdough baking. She tasted my bread that I had made on my own and exclaimed that it was a sourdough bread. I told it was a yeastbread and she hardly believed me. Good bread can be made from yeast I guess. Have a nice day and continuance of the summer. Love your work.

[@funkybreadz1014]

I like your story! Thanks for sharing it. A sourdough in the fridge does not die on it's own, when I stop baking for some months I just leave it and take off the ''bad'' water on top of it and refill it and it is as good as new after a refill. The longest period I didn't feed it was 13 months I think, some years ago. I've had 5-6 different ones in the past, with different kinds of flour for each one. Still got some that I haven't used in years and they're fine as well, should I want to pick them out and give them water and flour again. What was the steps that you mentioned? Or are you talking about the period when it's the most active when being fed regularly?

[@HeyWatchMeGo]

I tried this 2 days ago, before watching this video, (the tiny amount of yeast left side of your video)...right after I watched your video on sourdough starter, and the bread you made with it... simply because I didn't want to wait for the sourdough starter to get going and grow. I used the tiniest amount of yeast, and did a 12 hour preferment on a warm counter, while occasionally pulling and stretching/folding the dough to try to build tension as you had shown. I had my doubts if everything was working, (and my stretch and fold technique is pretty bad, just trying to learn it from your other video)so I put the dough (after 12 hrs!) into my homemade banneton, which was a round colander, lined with a tea towel heavily impregnated with flour. I put it in the fridge overnight, uncovered, then brought it out for a few hours/scored it as you have shown with the razor blade, and baked in preheated 500 degree F oven inside a heavy dutch oven that had also been preheated for 1/2 hour. I spritzed the loaf heavily with water right before putting it in the oven with the lid on. Baked for 25 mins, then removed lid and continued at 500 F for only about FIVE (edited) mins as it seemed like it might be burning on top, so I turned it down to 375 for another 12 to 15 mins. I felt like I may be overbaking, but because I was worried that it wouldn't be cooked in the center/as it didn't rise as much as I thought it should have. It looked fantastic when I took it out, and I left it to cool for 1 hr as you said. When I cut it in 1/2, it was actually extremely tasty, and REALLY gave the impression across the board/taste/crumb etc as sourdough!!! ** It even had the sourdough ear! I now have stored it in the dutch oven with the lid on now as we continue to eat it, (it is now day two), and it seems to only improve past day one! * I covered the top loosely with a piece of parchment after initially cutting it in half, because I was a bit concerned the crust would be too hard to bite through...but that was likely unnecessary. Huge thanks for these videos, they are fascinating, and provide a LOT of inspiration and useful knowledge. All the best!! ** Edit: This bread lasted really well thru hot summer days, for 4 days (by that time I ate it all, lol). No mold, no significant drying out either, even though I only had it stored in the dutch oven, with the lid on. To anyone who's reading this, this is really worth a try...and also, it's so cheap to make, so you don't need to worry so much about a 'fail'... 1/4 tsp of yeast, salt and just over 3 cups of flour. I shaped mine like a traditional sourdough round loaf, with the slash. Thanks very much for the excellent videos.

[@ChainBaker]

Awesome! I like your methods :)

[@warmesuppe]

Have a look at the channel "breadcode" he shows how different sourdough can be if its more dry or more liquid

[@ChainBaker]

Same goes for yeast preferments 👍

[@ILsupereroe67]

I thought it was going to be the other way around

[@GeorgeWTush]

Any compromise that rids your life of maintaining a sourdough starter is a fine compromise.

[@kleineroteHex]

Once you get used to feed the starter ever 7 to 10 days it's not a big deal to me. The discard goes in a seperate jar and gets used for waffles, muffins etc. I like the flavor as well as the health benefits. Next I will try and dehydrate some to just have if I let my starter go😁

[@cloudtam9931]

@@kleineroteHex Chain Baker had done an experiment that he left the starter at the counter top, and went to India for a trip of 3 weeks. He got home, fed the starter, and it came back to life again. 😄

[@kleineroteHex]

@@cloudtam9931 I know, it's pretty amazing stuff. Just not quite ready to use as usually.

[@hypnodream]

I love your comparison videos. I am a scientist and this makes bread even more interesting.

[@The_Gallowglass]

If you do it right, the dough wont actually be that sour, maybe just a little tang. If you do it right the bread will come out smelling and tasting a bit cheesy. Mine smells and tastes almost like how cheez its are.

[@ChainBaker]

There is no such thing as right or wrong. You can make it as sour or sweet as you like. It's all up to your taste.

[@bbussal]

OK, so now one step further to imitate sourdough sourness, which is attributed to lactobacillus bacteria, found naturally in yoghurt... So maybe adding a teaspoon of yoghurt to the dough would do the trick

[@cavalrycome]

Why not just add a tablet of lactic acid bacteria like what you can get for making yogurt?

[@kevinu.k.7042]

You could, but the lactobacillus in yoghurt are a very different kind to the ones found in a sourdough starter. The LABS in a sourdough starter are a completely different kind. They have a close relationship with bread yeast. The two work together breaking starches and sugars down along with super complex protein metabolism exchanges in such a way that each literally helps the other. Yoghurt LABS cannot do that, they are specialised in fermenting milk fats and proteins. Having said that I lob yoghurt into by dough in a pinch and it's better than nothing. Good baking to you. :)

[@cavalrycome]

@@kevinu.k.7042 Thanks for the reply. I've been thinking about trying this for some time just to see if that same symbiotic relationship would emerge. I haven't seen any mention of anyone trying to add lactobacillus (of any variety) alongside yeast in any of my bread making research so I might have to experiment with it for myself.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

@@cavalrycome No problem :) A study was done in the U.S. across a few hundred bakeries and they found that the bakers carried the correct LABS on their hands! Typically it takes about four weeks for LABS to establish in a new starter. There is a research paper on adding yoghurt culture to dough and it was found to be advantageous. "Yoghurt as a starter in sourdough fermentation to improve the technological and functional properties of sourdough-wheat bread." Wishing you well with your experiments and hoping you come back and share your results. Cheers :)

[@ChainBaker]

Kevin definitely knows more about this than I do! :)

[@mr.pizzamarlon]

*Wait! What?* The yeast didn't do the bubble cup effect. No no no Charlie! Just use the starter for all beads 🍞🥪🥖🥐🍕