Interview with Sam Allberry || What Can We Learn from the Ravi Zacharias Scandals?

In the continuing fall-out from the post-humous uncovering of Ravi Zacharias' scandalous abuse of women, we talk to Sam Allberry. He is an ordained Anglican minister and until recently, an employee and speaker for RZIM - the ministry Zacharias founded. Sam speaks to Glen about how he tried to raise concerns about him, only for to be rebuffed by the organisation.
They reference Steve Baughman's book "Cover-Up in the Kingdom" www.amazon.co.uk/Cover-Up-Kin...
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[@Martha77]

“We will never discover an ugly side to Jesus that has been hidden from us.” ✝️

[@pravin73]

YES we have Jesus created Satan and e is the root of ALL evil

[@milkahalmeida]

@@pravin73 where do u come up with such filth from???? Lucifer made himself a proud deceiver and satan .... God doesn't create evil u fool

[@pravin73]

@@milkahalmeida Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[@milkahalmeida]

@@pravin73 I don't understand why people take everything out of context in the Bible. U need the Holy Spirit in order to understand deep truths from the Word. God did not create evil, but His absence creates darkness. God didn't create satan, Yes God created Lucifer the angel, and when he rebelled he was thrown down to the pit along with his 33 crore angels. The demons today. And btw there is nothing called darkness, it is absence of light even in scientific terms. So also when people out of their own choice and free will that God has given us, rebel, automatically we turn ourselves towards the darkness. It doesn't mean God isn't there, it's just that our sin comes in between God and us. Our rebellion and pride is between God and us. It's that simple.

[@dorissantella4139]

NPCUCC

[@mezeiun8304]

Sam was so honest and vulnerable in this interview... Breaks my heart . Thank you for this interview. I needed this 🤧🤧🤧

[@roxanneandrews9139]

Propaganda against Ravi

[@erinsnave6214]

My husband and I were spiritually abused for years and lived in fear which still affects us now. Post Narcissistic stress Disorder. The Lord is Faithful and we keep looking to Him.

[@user-le7ny8bq1l]

Post traumatic stress disorder.

[@erinsnave6214]

I do mean PNSD not PTSD

[@natestein5988]

I haven't heard of PNSD. It sounds like something that a family member has experienced.

[@christinemason2938]

Thank you, Sam, for your transparency. I very much appreciate what you’ve shared and how you’ve shared it.

[@Maranatha7557]

This teaches me that we all need to hold each other accountable, and our lives must be an open book. God, please help me to lead an authentic Christian life.

[@hope46sf]

Amen!!

[@phabebarcelona863]

Yes Agree N not get so comfortable with self n our Christain journey but self examine Pretty much we may all have some that we struggle with or know someone who has

[@rickysikes1631]

The fact that he had no accountability either Spiritually or financially, plus his anger whenever he was challenged about either of those, really caused me to believe that the report was true. RZIM was said by some to have been like a cult. Staff could question God, but not Ravi.

[@roxanneandrews9139]

Ravi is innocent all lies

[@eamonnmurphy5385]

We can learn instead to seek the simple life, keeping in constant contact with God and praying for a contrite and humble heart.

[@iwanrobb7865]

Amen!

[@madesedani2769]

Amen simplicity, mercy, joy..

[@GayorgVonTrapp]

Didn’t this scandal reveal that no-one is in any way ‘in contact with god’? Not RZ, not the spirit filled ‘leaders’ that booked him for their events, not the folk who prayed for him prior to him speaking to 1,000’s in auditoriums and tents, not the people who sat at his feet drinking in his smooth words, not the people who listened to him in their cars on their hooked up iPhones, not those who couldn’t make it to the fests and ended up watching him on KZbin. No not one of them. Not a single one did the all knowing and all seeing lord almighty deem sound enough to share his little secret with, that he knew of everything RZ was into. No one had a clue. RZ was just a guy succumbing to his urges and using his standing to abuse and inflict pain and suffering onto innocent individuals. And your god knew. He let it continue. He didn’t reveal it to anyone. And were it not for the non believer that exposed him, the revenue would still be piling in. Yup.

[@eamonnmurphy5385]

@@GayorgVonTrapp Your ways are not God's ways!

[@GayorgVonTrapp]

If I’m on the phone to my insurance company, and the music is playing and no one ever answers me, is it true to say I am in contact with them?

[@hope46sf]

I am really grateful for the compassion you two have, especially for the victims. Some sites are seeming to want to give Ravi a pass, at least to some degree. Another panel on KZbin seemed to blame those around Ravi for not loving him enough to confront him. But that does not wash. He had years to repent, and when people questioned him, he rebuffed them. Thank you for a very balanced, Christian response to this very sad situation.

[@georgina4874]

Finally! A comment that makes sense!

[@roxanneandrews9139]

Propaganda against Ravi

[@roxanneandrews9139]

Propaganda against Ravi

[@namasayayaya6430]

Love and appreciate Sam and his ministry and so happy to see how those who are faithfully serving in ministry are handling this whole Ravi situation.

[@pamelaj1208]

Speaking to the inflated credentials...there is no way that a man in the academic world would be 'sloppy' with referring to his credentials. RZIM should have called him on it. They allowed him to be above reproach, which allowed his more heinous behavior and abuses.

[@ryanmorley463]

150% they knew he was inflating his credentials 1 million %. They are right in the thick of it as far as that is concerned: a kind of mild fraud if not fraudulence. They should be sorry tbh.

[@pamelaj1208]

@@ryanmorley463 💯

[@lindaanderson1016]

Thank you for refering to Jeremiah and reminding us of judgement from outside. Thank you for reminding us the importance of the necessary submission/accountability through local church membership.

[@royadams1958]

I would not have books on my shelf written by Ravi Zacharias. However it makes me wonder how many circuit writing preachers in the past may have disqualified themselves from ministry but we’re never found out. Some ministers may have their books on the shelf. Bottom line is that we look to Jesus to be our guest teacher.

[@GreatYachts]

Hind sight... Let's just pray for the victims, the women, his family, friends, co-workers. Pray as God uses even donkeys there are those who heard the word of God and sincerely responded to the gospel .

[@joanbenjamin6345]

Sam's comments and heart, and the interviewer, are a bright spot in all this horror. Thank You, Lord. And I also with grief, threw out every book of rz.

[@ryanmorley463]

Solomon had 1000s of concubines and Moses and David murdered people in cold blood. Did you throw those books into the trash as well?? ;) ;) Just poking at you bud... interesting though hey. Character / anointing and wisdom are 3 separate things.

[@joanbenjamin6345]

Hello Ryan, Shalom, and you make a vey good point, even in fun. It took a lot of thought and I took much of my decision after Sam A's comments. The comparison with Solomon (or David? ) doesn't quite hold, and it was difficult to get rid of many valuable thoughts, insights, quotes.... and doubt they will be all forgotten or unused. I believe RZ became enslaved by an addiction, as can we all in this slippery slick world... and all the more to be sure to be eyes on Christ and "turn neither to the left or right".

[@ryanmorley463]

@@joanbenjamin6345 Good point. Can you explain why the comparison to Solomon doesn't hold? Purely interested. I suspect you're right but always good to validate an argument.

[@22burst2020ddsspec]

@@joanbenjamin6345 I can understand not being interested in his books or content anymore. But don't render anywhere near everything ravi has said as wrong or invalid

[@joanbenjamin6345]

@@ryanmorley463 Hi Ryan and I hope I am doing this reply thing correctly. Re Solomon; he was on the far side of Jesus's teachings (& 'updates, if you will: "you have heard it said... but I tell you....". ). Please know I do not judge RZ (God forbid). And yes, there are many 'gems ' from him that will always be recalled. But we are all commanded to walk it like w talk it (& fail at it far too much). But(again), we are also given a powerful warning that the teacher/ leader/ pastor attained and is held to a higher accountability... As was Solomon, granted. But are we to go on sinning..... God forbid. In a practical vein as well, referencing RZ's quotes may lead one off on am unnecessary tangent to sharing the Gospel. (Not that we hide the reality of the sinful nature in each of us). Anyway, if this reaches you, looking forward to more thoughts. Shalom.

[@Clif87]

"Trying to look good in the presence of judgement, instead of looking bad in the presence of love."

[@Clif87]

Very powerful thought

[@mariakassis1549]

Well said at min 48: "Ravi has let you down and betrayed you, Christ hasn't, the Gospel is no less true. It's actually the truth of the Gospel that exposes the depth of the betrayal."

[@KristiLEvans1]

I feel terrible for the apologists who work for RZIM. This must’ve hit them like a ton of bricks.

[@lornadsouzaphilip9110]

I don’t think it did, because I think they knew but chose to ignore it because Ravi was a cash cow. The q is now, did his wife know all along about the false degree credentials? It’s terribly sad and wrong that Ravi has used Jesus in such a dirty and deceitful manner, what was Ravi thinking? Is he, was he the devils advocate?

[@tommorrow5299]

“I think they knew”?

[@christines5430]

It is worrying that at least two members of the executive management team were lawyers prior to becoming apologists yet they didn't see if fit to put accountability and safeguarding procedures in place

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@lornadsouzaphilip9110 eh, I’m not so sure. In retrospect, yeah... his perfidy is far easier to see. But at the time, I can absolutely see how a man like RZ could get nearly any employee to believe anything, for nearly any length of time. That said, I’m not sure how his wife could have let years of 250-day-per-year travel, go on for decades, and NOT see. I’m not sure how his wife could’ve stood by KNOWING he fabricated nearly his entire CV. She, on some level, and in retrospect, has to be the person least surprised by all of this.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@christines5430 yes. Abdu Murray, in particular, is a big question for me. He knew the dark details of this entire thing. Certainly, he likely knew that Ravi was not only an academic fraud, but that he very likely had issues with young women.

[@jillfrancis8380]

Thank you for this honest response. I strongly recommend the Josh and Shaun McDowell conversation which covers accountability of ministers and ministries and also importantly the care and restoration of victims.

[@vaughnlonganecker986]

The solution to a good group of elders so that accountability is always in place is not to have "friends' in those positions, but to have Nathans, that is someone who's primary concern and interest is the Lord Jesus Christ, not the pastor, leader, person in authority. Those who a leader needs to be accountable to need to be willing to challenge anyone as Paul did of Peter when he was sinning. (Gal. 2:11-13)

[@benedit71]

There were many red flags in retrospect but there was a lone voice raising the issues and many ignored him quite possibly because he was an athiest.

[@KC-fb8ql]

That’s interesting. To whom are you referring?

[@benedit71]

@@KC-fb8ql That is Steve Baughman, you can look that up.

[@kimalonzo3363]

They discussed him in this interview.

[@MsCkbt]

My heart aches over this whole thing. I much appreciate Sam’s thoughtful responses.

[@phabebarcelona863]

Same so so so sad a kind of tragedy yet the display of the deceit of our human hearts This is so serious for us all for everyone a wake call if you like to examine our own lives n never get to thinking that it couldn't happen or that we are immune.. Meaning that we self examine self n seek out God

[@vaughnlonganecker986]

The greatest indicator of problems with Ravi and actually all of RZIM was the soft to nonexistent proclamation of the gospel, the core of Christ and what it is to be a Christian. The over emphasis of rational argument, reasoning someone to "our side". I noticed this about 4 years ago but realized that an overemphasis of convincing Christianity rather than declaring the truth and leaving it up to the Holy Spirit. I evangelize in the street and to my neighbor, I declare the word of God, the Holy Spirit convicts and draws, it's not ours to "make" Christians. Ravi had an amazing intellect but it's not by our intellect that we "make our case", which my wife had noted a bit of pride about his own achievements but he often did it with such grace and intellect one tended to agree, ya, he did a masterful job of that adversary. I believe there was a major failure with those close to him who should have been holding him to account. The greater the person has responsibility the greater there needs to be Nathans to hold them to account. Hold yourself accountable to the Lord, examine yourself according to the word of God.

[@caroldonaldson4565]

Zacharias was not a man burdened by conscience.

[@arlenedeborahdeleon2460]

agree.

[@ottooldenhardt]

He was a psychopath who used ministry resources to build systems to steadily procure victims

[@Dream-bebe]

I am truly sad about this scandal. This makes it hard for the body of Christ/the Church , for pastors, apologetics and evangelists to do the Lord’s work/ministry.

[@eschmigu]

Good to hear from you Sam! Thank you for sharing honestly. Thank you both for reacting humbly and boldly. Let's learn the lessons, move on and trust Jesus! We are in this together.

[@alexandraward1248]

Thank you Sam and Glen for your wisdom, honesty and insight.

[@hagar3842]

I can see and hear the burden you are carrying. I pray that you and the other staff of RZIM will get counseling as i know you too have been deeply impacted by this issue.

[@alannatomlinson7723]

Thanks for really honing in on this instead of rushing past it

[@jon_doran]

Really good conversation. Thank you

[@bulasatish3318]

That's why we need to read Bible ourselves. When we read Jesus Christ himself will help us to understand about him . When we do not read we open ourselves to sins that will bring us down. That's the condition ofheart. See mark chapter 7 verse 19 to 23. . That's why worldly people keep away from Christians. The sad part familyhas to deal and suffer the pain and consequences of this. Never trust any speaker no matter how great. This days money talks along with this emotions , feelings to succeed. However, there is forgiveness at a cost.

[@AmandaThwaite54]

Thank you!

[@JeffSmith-rz2er]

One thing not mentioned is just how awful Ravi's fans were. For years they attacked Steve Baughman, Julie Roys, and others who tried to expose Ravi's sins. Ravi's fans used the most hateful, ugly, diseased language when attacking Ravi's critics. Ravi truly created a cult which members didn't think on their own and viciously attacked anyone who tried to expose his sinful, predatory lifestyle. Ravi's fans were just as responsible as RZIM for enabling Ravi's predatory behavior. If Ravi's fans are true Christians, then I'm an atheist.

[@shyamalashyamala6676]

The Bible has always been the encouraging n strengthening power of God for any believer. In the perspective of learning more n understanding it's inner truth many listened with interest to preachers n expositors. God's children love His Word which is why they support evangelists n preachers of the Bible. Many don't know the personal lifestyle of God's servants until it all blows up.

[@misterjones78]

@@shyamalashyamala6676 The behavior of many of Ravi's fans, James McDonald fans, and currently John MacArthur fans, is no where even close to the behavior modeled by Christ. It is the behavior of cult members. When their leaders are criticized, just like cult members, they attacked their critics with impunity. They don't display the Fruits of the Spirit "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. What I have seen from Ravi, McDonald, and McArthur fans are hate, misery, strife, intolerance, meanness, malign intentions, faithlessness, wrathfulness, and uncontrollable passions.

[@shyamalashyamala6676]

@@misterjones78 Christ's Kingdom is established empowered n enabled on the 9 pillar gifts of the Holy Spirit. Yes - hate cannot be a supportive pillar in His Kingdom. Let's love the children of God with the Love that God loved His only Son Jesus. God bless us and give us peace amidst storms of discord n criticism

[@heikodobbe7689]

@@misterjones78 thought you were talking about N Pelosi and her cronies.

[@JeffSmith-rz2er]

@@heikodobbe7689 Perhaps that too, but also Alabama or Clemson fans, man they are crazy. Lord of the Ring fans can also get nasty.

[@JT-yo]

43:33, absolute wisdom on how to deal with Ravi's books and teachings now.

[@easternbrown]

Yeah, of all the things he could have said that was spot on

[@ryanmorley463]

I agree with this in essence eg yes a leaders character has to be qualified as a leader for us to follow them. I would also say: he said he wouldn’t want to be the cause of someone being triggered. I get that but deep down in essence I don’t think it’s my job to protect people from triggers. Triggers are our emotions way of showing us there is something deep down to deal with. I’m thankful for triggers in my life now I’m processed them. I think it starts to lead into post modernism and progressive liberalism if we focus on avoiding triggering people. But yes I do understand there is a good heart to want to avoid confusion by not having Ravis books on display.

[@Rubberglass]

I had one of his book. Threw it in the trash.

[@ryanmorley463]

@@Rubberglass Solomon had 1000s of concubines and Moses and David murdered people in cold blood. Did you throw those books into the trash as well?? ;) ;) Just poking at you bud... interesting though hey. Character / anointing and wisdom are 3 separate things.

[@Rubberglass]

@@ryanmorley463 Those stories were recorded to teach us what not to do, they are part of one big book that is a grand story about the grace of God in Christ.

[@eeforest7122]

What camera did you use to film this? I want to buy one

[@kennorthunder2428]

Comparing the moral failure of Ravi to an unqualified pilot is a conflation of categories. The only similarity is that the pilot committed a moral failure in taking an initial risk by putting the lives of others at risk. However over time, his safe performance spoke for itself. Personally, I would feel utterly confident with such an unlicensed pilot. Ravi on the other hand was a dispenser "morality" while committing immorality over a similar length of time. "Can a clean thing come from and unclean thing?" Job 14:4 - While it HAS to be true that we trust the gospel but not the dispenser of the gospel.

[@roxanneandrews9139]

Ravi was innocent

[@kennorthunder2428]

@@roxanneandrews9139 Because? Be precise as to why. I'd very much want him to be, but if there are various clues spread across time and space that when collated point to a high probability that he guilty - like use of various communication devices, various testimonies of people he treated, his use of power to demand trust in him, his saying to one of the victims "don't say anything for the sake of the gospel" (when admission of guilt would have served the gospel), then I'm force to conclude he was guilty. So if you have other evidence that outweighs these things, I'm leaning towards his guilt. Even though I liked and loved him.

[@soniaa.armstrong4577]

Our sins find us out. Thank you. Accountability is key AND READING GODS WORD DAILY WITH PRAYER.

[@rickysikes1631]

I am grieved for Margie,and grieved because of Margie. No one mentions what parts she had in RZIM. She seems to have held Ravi above question, but as a wife , how could she have resigned herself to her husband being gone 3/4 of the year , and never consider the temptations involved in that. Was she also a worshipper of Ravi? It seems so since her vehement denial of the reports. I threw out all of my books by Ravi. I cannot believe anything he said/wrote even in his biography. I do not believe he ever knew Christ. He asked women to pray with him and thank God for the opportunity for them to be together? He was thanking God for the opportunity to comment adultery! His arrogance tells me he saw himself as a god. It seems his family idolized him as well. Now they act as ‘keepers of the flame’? I think perhaps Ravi did start RZIM I order to stay away from everyone that could have been able to see through his persona and facade. He held himself as not accountable to any church nor to his own family. He seems to be a prototype of the antichrist: globally known, seemingly good, and wise,and honest, persuasive , manipulative, and wicked to the core. Naming a world mission after himself should have warned me. Who does that but a very arrogant person.

[@mightysun89]

Whatever situation around us smother us, our focus shouldn’t be away from God. We never should trust a person.

[@brendabritton702]

Found this interview oddly comforting. The quiet, reasonable discussion of this 'shattering' situation helped.Can still make no sense of how this all happened and so very sad for all who are impacted and disappointed by the revelations.

[@Maranatha7557]

“Ravi has let you down; Christ hasn’t.”

[@GayorgVonTrapp]

Oh yes he has. He let Ravi continue for years in wrongdoing.He let believers spend their money to go and see him. He stood by as his flock were mesmerised by this man. So yes, the imaginary figure did very much let his people down.

[@mohanlalrampersad490]

@@GayorgVonTrapp 100% right. Jesus has no control.

[@Callumlambizle]

@@GayorgVonTrapp absolute tripe to assume we have zero autonomy over our actions. Humans are responsible for their actions.

[@GayorgVonTrapp]

@@Callumlambizle Lmao. Stop turning this on to the humans. RZ’s not the first and he won’t be the last. But where is the ‘god’ thing, that’s supposed to be all knowing, all seeing and all powerful. He saw, he knew, he did NOTHING, whilst all his flock and his devoted leaders were duped. He never shows up when it matters. Strange that.

[@Callumlambizle]

@@GayorgVonTrapp I don’t pretend to understand the reasoning for Gods seeming inaction, but a God that is all knowing knows more than I. Therefore my prideful assumption of being able to tell God how he should’ve acted is founded in nonsense. Faith in God is faith that when Christ returns, God will judge all and justice will be served. The bible doesn’t deny evil, it doesn’t deny bad things happening (Christ was literally murdered after all, God allowed that too.) what it does do is say despite this, we believe God to be true and that in the end his perfect justice, not ours, will be served.

[@Boatswain_Tam]

I have to disagree on the point about "seen trust" vs. "blind trust". The reason why everyone initially gave RZ the benefit of the doubt is precisely because it is "seen trust". You interact with the guy, you experienced working with him etc. and it would be counter intuitive to go against your daily experience over an allegation. That is understandable. That said however, these allegations should have looked into a bit more deeply when suspicious emails concerning Lori Ann Thompson started to surface. When you have credible and solid evidence to challenge what you take as your experience, then you ought ot verify your "seen trust". And that is what RZIM did not do, instead they circled the wagons and pooh poohed the allegation even when credible evidence surfaced. That is inexcusable.

[@marksmale827]

With all due respect, we shouldn't be entrusting our spiritual lives to anyone but the Holy Trinity, i.e., God Himself. Not Mr Zacharias, not anyone else. Our Lord says "Call no man father". We have many spiritual fathers, but only one Spiritual Father, our Heavenly Father.

[@jksfghy]

...very good and fruitful interview.

[@heikodobbe7689]

Lot’s of people have been hurt, but the saddest of all is the fact that instead of being a ambassador of Christ ,Ravi proved to be the devils advocate.I am sad for that.

[@ryanmorley463]

The scary thing is how a man can become both

[@bulasatish3318]

Don't be sad. Jesus Christ did say in last days this and more will happen not surprised. That's focus on Jesus Christ . The world is getting bad by the day. I never trust any speaker no matter how great or small. I always say to Jesus Christ completely trust Jesus from day one. He saved it's his responsibility to look after me as long as I listen to Jesus. Iam in many troubles yet I can not find one thing to complain about not that you are.god bless

[@mariakassis1549]

​​​@@ryanmorley463 it is just like Judas Iscariot, disciple of Jesus and preaching and baptizing in His Name, and at the same time a thief and a doubter, like having 2 personalities in parallel, double faced, leading a double life... when we allow a sin to grow inside of us without repentance, it will destroy us from the inside and will lead us to death.. sin = death... I wish Ravi repented before he died, not sure... he was still soliciting women images almost 3 months before his death... this is what the investigation has revealed

[@williewiner4161]

Thanks for sharing this, was very powerful and pointed out all of our responsibilities to each other.

[@sarawoods1450]

Being a faithful Witness is about being loving not good sophistry which one is harder to fake/do? 🤔

[@rena6895]

I think Sam is being so hard on himself. Hindsight is 20/20; it’s easy to look back and think you should have known. It is human nature to want to believe those we respect. I feel so sorry and pray for the victims and for all of Ravi’s family and friends. I did not personally know him and I am having a hard time with this. I have followed him for years and sent his videos to people I know. I can’t even imagine how those close to him feel.

[@lindalee9177]

One thing we can observe from Ravi’s sin is how easy it is to compartmentalize our sin from our Christian life. He had two lives. In the sinned filled life, he rationalized that this sexual exploitation and lust was a right reward he deserved. This compartmentalizing of sin comes about when the conscience is damaged. I’ve heard it described like a window you can see through clearly at first. Then as it gets dirty ( sin) it is not clear to see through the window. Likewise the more sin we allow the less clear right and wrong is even to obey God.’s word. We set aside and rationalize the sin and continue to participate for pleasure and instant gratification. Compartmentalizing is changing the reality of what sin is because it separates us from God’s best way And God’s loving warning to keep us from the consequences of sin. Another thing I’ve learned is that God removed him from our realm of judgement.....he is meeting God for that. That doesn’t mean we ignore this tragedy but we must examine the Church at every level. Sin hurts other people so we must be diligent and repent as leaders especially.

[@robholler4926]

Ravi was afforded the honor of a elder such as not receiving an accusation without 2 or 3 witnesses, yet was not a member of a local church, therefore, not an elder of a church. It is my opinion that all ministry work should proceed from the watchful care of local church elders in a biblical church. Had this been the case, possibly his elders could have called him to repent for his lies regarding his inflation of his credentials before anymore spiritual, financial, and sexual abuse had been perpetrated. Local church elders are charged for the spiritual care of their “sheep” and inspired to diligence in that they will give an account to the Great Shepherd.

[@arlenedeborahdeleon2460]

there is still the question of HUMAN TRAFFICKING that has to be resolve. How about the question of immigration?

[@valdez3245]

I think unfortunately more things will come out. Sad.

[@NarnianLady]

yes. it is not even addressed ...

[@dallasstudent1605]

In addition to human trafficking, we need to know about the financials. RZ misused donor money. How much and what did he use it for? If RZ or family members had an OCI or NRI visa status in India they could be hiding lots of ministry money in India. Was there money laundering?

[@wagsbass]

The pilot analogy was helpful

[@katherinevalencia4676]

"Man is more normal, healthy or happy, the more he can...successfully...repress, displace, rationalize, dramatize himself and deceive others. Human character is a 'vital lie'; the more stable the character the more successful the lie. Otto Rank

[@curiousgeorge555]

There are exceptions like Bundy.

[@kathleencassel1350]

“Trying to look good in the presence of judgment instead of looking bad in the presence of love.” Indeed his love covers a multitude of sin.

[@jackassington2477]

“If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.”

[@megaloschemos9113]

Hi, I'm looking forward to this.I follow Sam on Insta 💯 I do wonder if Ravi's wife and family were ever suspicious of him spending such long periods away from home?

[@valdez3245]

He spent too much time away from home, and he definitely abused the trust he was given. What a horrible man!

[@megaloschemos9113]

@Abdul Ali I guess so. I find it hard to believe his wife didn't have an inclination

[@Dream-bebe]

@@megaloschemos9113 : his wife probably new. She probably kept quiet!

[@megaloschemos9113]

It's interesting, I was listening to Jordan Peterson's wife in a podcast. She travelled with Jordan when he was touring around the world, she went witj him everywhere and managed his diary. So it it possible for a wife to travel with their husband.

[@kurtanderson5023]

Margie wrote an email that Nathan published. She clearly does not believe he did anything wrong at all.

[@SarahBElisabeth]

WE CAN LEARN - Dear Christians, when you hear all manner of things to hold your peace and first seek TRUTH from the Lord. Be quick to listen and slow to speak (James 1:19). This must be our practice as Christ followers. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” Love all men but only TRUST God. Let those who have ears hear.

[@jennieweston6767]

I am speaking from Canada, not the UK, but I am sorry to hear that Sam Alberry has transplanted himself to the US. The UK needs people like him so much and so many have left. Why is this I wonder.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Because religious expression for Christians is being criminalized in Canada and Europe. The US is not far behind, however.

[@joanbenjamin6345]

I would and will gladly listen to this humble, honest man. Welcome, we need you in the US.

[@TheSpaniard-5337]

Very good conversation as always! Thank you!

[@TheSpaniard-5337]

This kind of double life where you have a public 'me' and a hidden 'me' is typical for psycopaths. No repentanse is also indicating the same. Lori's testimony reviels Ravi's manipulative skills and ruthless behaviour, abusing a woman who was molested as a child. I have enough unfortunate experiences of these kind of people to write a book...

[@KristiLEvans1]

I’m sorry to hear this. High-functioning psychopaths CAN CHOOSE to live godly lives, inasmuch as it’s possible. See Dr. David Wood at Acts 17 Apologetics, on KZbin. He discusses this topic

[@TheSpaniard-5337]

@@KristiLEvans1 Im aware of David Wood and his story. However RZ (if he was a psycopath)clearly did't choose to live a godly life. I did't mean to say that psycopathy was the cause of RZ's behaviour, but mearly point out features indicating that he might have had an antisocial personality disorder...

[@albertmichael8297]

the more false we destroy the more room we make for true . Robert Ingersoll

[@cachinnation448]

Well done to you two gentlemen for going through the muck and mire of someone else's scum and sin. Praying for you both.

[@donnag.3611]

JUST ONE DESCRIPTION OF RAVI ZACHARIAS--PROVERBS 26:23-25-- Like a coating of glaze over earthenware are fervent lips w/ an evil heart. A malicious man disguises himself w/ his LIPS but in his HEART he HARBORS DECEIT. Though his speech is CHARMING, do NOT believe him, for SEVEN ABOMINATIONS FILL HIS HEART. Another aspect I'd like to talk about is that when people open up the doors to evil doings, they also open up the doors to strongmen, principalities, powers, etc. in the spirit realm...it looks to me like Ravi carried w/ him a strongman of Jezebel spirit, the witchcraft spirit, the spirit of intimidation, lying spirit, seduction spirit, the charmer spirit (like a snake) & many more. For sure, HE WAS A WOLF & WOLVES FOOL PEOPLE!!! So glad that Steve had this dinner w/ him & continued to pursue him!

[@chunchunli5181]

What about put some sort of whistleblower system where ‘victims’ can denounce their abuse?

[@therobustwoman3768]

Surprised to hear that the RZIM board didn’t provide spiritual oversight !!

[@valdez3245]

Yes, because he was after all, " Ravi Zacharias ". Sad! Poor discernment!

[@Maranatha7557]

No ministry should be named after a man, in my opinion. It creates a lot of problems, like pride, for example.

[@mariakassis1549]

So we shouldn't be listening anymore to his sermons? I'm afraid of the spirits leading him, in his personal life as well as in his words and teaching... one should be very vigilant, very knowledgeable about the Word of God and so enlightened by the Holy Spirit to be able to capture/spot any wrong or shallow teaching of Ravi, given his strong charisma that may take you to somewhere else, exactly as described in the analogy of the "pilot"...

[@samsontesfay1]

My appreciation for two of you. Well presented indeed.

[@martinospitaletta8198]

Matthew 7, 23. Was Ravi a doer of lawlessness? Yes. Philippians 1, 6. Did the holy spirit transform his life into the image of Christ? No. Did he continue in sin? Yes. 1. John 3, 9. There is no sign of Ravi fighting against sin. Ravi was fighting to conceal his sin. Romans 1,5. True faith is visible, because obedience is making true faith visible. And so is disobedience making visible true unbelief John 3, 36. The conclusion of this verses is clear. I highly recommend Matthew Bates book "Salvation by Allegiance alone. Reconsidering Faith, Works and the Gospel of Jesus the King." Be blessed!

[@vedawattieram1974]

But why would Ravi not be a part of a local church?? Why did RZIM allow that...? I notice that generally men in my context do not confront men on the obvious sin issues. It is so hard to do! There is such a need for empowering men. 😢

[@arlenedeborahdeleon2460]

short of saying...how can you confront someone who's feeding you?

[@28102650]

I don’t think that Sam is saying that. In fact, near the beginning of the interview (from memory) he was saying that he was working on other things. And also that even though he was a part of the U.K. team, he was spending a lot of his time in the U.S. in preparation for his planned move there.

[@sethmcbrown9492]

Perfect pilot analogy 👌 thanks for this upload. Quite comforting.

[@RobbDepp]

Ravis material should not be canceled. The church embracing cancel culture would be to embrace leftist causes but based off of sin, and if sin is enough to cancel out anyone, then its enough to cancel out everyone.

[@SpeakLifeMedia]

Sins that disqualify leaders from ministry is not cancel culture, it's biblical Christianity.

[@RobbDepp]

@@SpeakLifeMedia Then rip out Psalms from your Bible too.

[@sarahisles2468]

@@RobbDepp David repented and desired a clean and pure heart towards God. It seems Ravi did not.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Ravi wasn’t qualified to teach.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@RobbDepp Specious comparison. King David is no example here. Like, at all. RZ fabricated credentials, lied about the one victim who *came forward*, spent ministry money to create and maintain a harem of abused women, intimidated employees, fired at least one masseur who refused him, etc., etc. On the obverse, when Nathan confronted King David, the realization of his sin broke him, and he repented, thoroughly and immediately. David is hardly the picture of RZ, who systematized predation over the course of decades.

[@jocelynharris-fx8ho]

At time 39:17, you asked what happened to Ravi for the situation to get as bad as it did. Before I got saved, I was heavily involved in the entertainment industry, specifically Rock music. I don't have enough fingers to count the amount of times that fame, money and prestige have corrupted people and more often than not, the men fell victim to groupies, alcohol and drugs and basically becoming "drunk" with their own notoriety. Many start out just wanting to share their talents and gifts and parlaying it into a career, but they are not warned about the pitfalls of fame. This also happens in professional athletics. In 2009, a well known quarterback for an NFL team, that everyone was led to believe was a Christian, had been shot and killed in a murder-suicide by a woman that he had been having an affair with . The final investigation revealed that he was involved with multiple woman and he told them that he was getting divorced and that he would marry them.. it was lies. His wife was humiliated and his family suffered greatly. Men, more than women seem to fall into the traps of fame and they can't get out. This is not to condone what sinful behaviors people get caught up in but I remember some of Ravi's life story and as a young kid, he suffered with depression and had no direction in life. When someone reached out to him with the Gospel, he had the best of intentions to share the news of Jesus Christ and was even partnered with Billy Graham at one point but the fame, power, money and prestige swelled his ego and he lost track of the fact that he was God's instrument and perhaps started thinking that he was a god and he was invincible. My father was a Psychologist and I've seen people who started out with disadvantaged lives and when they became wealthy and famous, it ended up being their downfall. 😮 The sad part is, some of the same facts have come out about Martin Luther King.

[@dr.k.t.varughese3151]

Undoubtedly, Ravi was not called by God to preach on Jesus Christ, but it was a choice by himself, a battle fought well, course completed well while egregiously failed to keep His faith if you simply look at 2 Timothy 4 7.

[@jreberanlc]

I instinctively agree as Sam says “Jesus is safe” but what does that mean? From the perspective of a victim, “yes Jesus is safe, but where was He since he was not here to protect me when I needed it?” This is not meant as a criticism but a genuine question.

[@deborahmcgowen1549]

It's Time To Pray ! Join us live Tuesday night's 7pm Times Square Church Pastor Teresa and Carter Conlon God is Faithful !

[@KristiLEvans1]

Women are not pastors in Biblically sound churches - see the Epistles. Times Square was Dave Wilkerson’s church, yes? Apparently, it’s gone with the times, as it were.

[@deborahmcgowen1549]

@@KristiLEvans1 Pastor Teresa like many woman in the bible was called into the ministry David Wilkerson recognized the anointing on her life and ordained her She went on to get her doctorates degree and is now the President of Summit International Bible School she is a spiritual mother and loves people she is the prayer and heart behind who Pastor Carter Conlon has become a shepherd of shepherds

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@deborahmcgowen1549 if she preaches at corporate gatherings, God did not call her to do that. If she teaches women, only, that’s a different story. I’ve never encountered, nor heard of a Biblically-sound church that allowed women to preach. Once that compromise is made, generally, Biblical theology is twisted in several areas. I’ll check out the Times Square church. Used to live in the city, but I’ll have to check it out online.

[@deborahmcgowen1549]

@@KristiLEvans1 miriam was a prophet to Israel Deborah was a judge of Israel and she was married too Esther was an ambassador to the king and saved the Jewish race A donkey was a prophet Anna was in the temple with the priest she was there 60 years or so as a prophet Priscila was a teacher Lydia led the prayer ministry Jesus financial help was the woman that followed him Joanna and others there were Euodias and Syntyche who laboured with Paul it's a heart issue Pastor Teresa is highly educated has a doctorate degree and started out cleaning the church and doing children's church she is under Gods authority thru her husband and the church

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@deborahmcgowen1549 none of them were pastors or leaders of the fledgling church, and was not considered in Judaism. Not one. Pastoring a mixed audience church is an order-of-creation issue. I didn’t make it up, it’s actually ringingly clear throughout the OT and NT. God highly values women, as you see from the examples you cited, as well as Mary - Proverbs 31 woman. But, we have different *roles* than men. It’s just true.

[@murattanyel1029]

If he got an honorary doctorate, it is perfectly acceptable to call him Dr. Zacharias. That is why institutions grant honorary doctorates, so that the recipients can be called Dr. Suchandsuch.

[@DSCook-ko4gc]

No, it’s not. That’s deception.

[@dallasstudent1605]

It is an honor not a degree. It is listed as an award, not an earned degree. Any other profession would kick someone out if they lied like RZ did.

[@valp9972]

You mean, like, "Dr. Ravi Suchaliar?"

[@sarawoods1450]

A doctorate is an academic accolade hard won honorary is merely that and never to be used in addressing someone but may be ‘mentioned’ in an introduction

[@KristiLEvans1]

Except that all of the academicians who worked for RZIM and learned the EXTENT of his academic fabrications, which, if you’d listened, was not at ALL limited to calling himself “doctor”.

[@deborahmcgowen1549]

Please watch Why Do Preachers Lie? pastor Carter Conlon Times Square Church this is deeply educational

[@rubie5501]

I wondered how much Nabel knew before he died?

[@marksorenson5871]

Its just tragic that Ravi wasnt outed while he was alive. He could have repented if he was a true believer. I think he was a believer who sinned unto death. i John 5:16-17. Otherwise Ravi is burning in Hades

[@KristiLEvans1]

I pray he repented.

[@pocahontas5145]

Sobering.

[@mathaithomas2816]

2 gentlemen mumbling and whispering here. I like and listened to it. Nobody stood in a stadium and addressed 1000s like Ravi.He had a loud voice.It boomed across the stadium.He had answers nobody else could answer. His books if I had them I would only cut off the front cover. His answers were good like Bill and Trump's credentials were OK. If a Monica Lewinsky, or Stormy Daniel's or etc came along they didn't go register a complaint in the police station. They did it for fun or money? I first thought this was a malady of the USA. But even in the UK Prince Charles and Camilla ,if the King is the head of the Church of England. As Gary Hart with Donna Rice in his lap said if you keep harping on moral values you will never get the people with credentials to occupy high office. If the ladies felt left out Jacinda Arden did she have a child out of wedlock or is she living with her husband or boyfriend. These leaders controlled big budget taxes extracted by force from the people compared to which RZIM just had the small change handed as a free will offering. The depths to which our political leaders fall and the budgets they control also affect the depths to which our spiritual leaders fall and their pocket change. The judiciary in India recently legalised homosexuality and livein relations.So the judiciary fell first. These leaders fell afterwards and also have livein relations. Bishop Franco Mulakkal. A channel on KZbin- Conspiracy in Hindi. This channel spreads conspiracies. God save the King and God save the British Empire?

[@dhletro]

If the so called ministry is really repentive, they will close the doors and seek God. Otherwise it will be an attempt to keep the lavish lifestyles going.

[@arlenedeborahdeleon2460]

Books...BURN it.

[@marksorenson5871]

These so called super christians never belong to a local church and are never subject to any kind of discipline or subjection to a local church discipline

[@terraloft]

Prophets outside the church... Of course..even Donald Trump was seen as one who brought clarity to justice and rightness..called out the disloyal and inept.. I pray Steve baughman will find the Lord in all His Wonder ... forgiveness and redemption through the Blood of Jesus

[@hope46sf]

Thank you both for this discussion.

[@martinospitaletta8198]

Did RAVI have what Paul called PISTIS/FAITH? Closer look: The meaning of pistis in the context of subordination is - in the extant texts from Paul's time - allegiance. By calling Jesus christos=annointed one, he is declared to be the messianic king of Israel. By calling him further kyrios, he receives the same title of the Roman emperor. By combining this two facts "faith in the lord Jesus Christ" in Romans becomes correctly: "allegiance towards Jesus as king of Israel and emperor of the world" . Furthermore, dikaiosyne meant in the Jewish theology of Paul's time "covenant faithfulness"(Luke 1, 6), as the sign of the true faithful members of Abraham's covenant family. If you combine both findings, "FAITH THAT IS RECKONED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS" becomes "ALLEGIANCE (towards Christ as king)THAT IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS COVENANT FAITHFULNESS". If and only if you have allegiance, you are considered a member in the true covenant people. AND AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE TO LIVE IN UNREPENTANT SIN YOU DO NOT HAVE ALLEGIANCE - you are possibly just an adherent to a traditional misinterpretation of Paul, EVEN if you wrongly define your conviction of some confessional shortcut statements as "pistis". So the problem of Ravi is the problem of every "sola fide Christian" who lives a lifestyle of sin. He may cling to a confessional creed, but that is not what Paul meant by pistis. I highly recommend you reading the Wikipedia article on the "New Perspective on Paul" or the books by Matthew Bates: "Gospel Allegiance. What faith in Jesus misses for salvation in Christ". Or: "Salvation by Allegiance alone. Reconsidering Faith, Works and the Gospel of Jesus the King." Or N. T. Wright "Paul and the faithfulness of God." Be blessed and think for yourself!

[@giftfortoday2643]

Yes indeed, God imparts his message through what He calls filthy rags. Everyone are filthy rags washed in His blood. How many heard that message in your call. 1 Cor 10:12. Remember our Lord and Savior among everything we are called to serve. Let us hang up pride and accomplishments at the feet of the cross, where all the filthy rags lay. Lay your filthy rag down at the foot of the cross.

[@lindacharles6581]

I just listened to everything Sam Allberry said and I thought it was excellent and wise. Then at the end I heard he was relocating to Kentucky USA, I don’t know why but everything he said then lost his credibility, if any nation needs men of God and a heart for the gospel it is the U.K. especially now. I am so tired of hearing men of God going to a nation like the USA which is awash with ministers, we are needful of men of God in a way we have never been before. I am sorry to say all this but I am being honest about what I feel, I am a nobody from nowhere but where are the men who have a heart for this country and it’s needs.

[@KristiLEvans1]

We are behind the UK (so far) in prohibition of speech. He may feel he has a better chance of reaching people from the US.

[@luzmella100]

Thank you for this comforting video.

[@DonswatchingtheTube]

A problem with crimes within an organisation is the victims feel guilty of going outside of it for justice. The organisation tend to be ill prepared to deal with it. Looking at some of the things Ravi got up to, the victims should have reported them to the police and let them investigate it.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Yes, but you can see why that that doesn’t happen. See Bill Cosby’s case. People went to the cops for years.

[@DonswatchingtheTube]

@@KristiLEvans1 But an organisation isn't going to bring justice to the victims. They could only call the police second hand. Experts in law, trained in investigations, in interviewing suspects, assessing evidence, and the powers to enforce the law should be called in. Is it a corporate or individual crime? A victim of a crime should go straight to the police.

[@voxangeli9205]

So, what should we do now, too, stop ranting about the sexual misconducts and scandals of the original preachers of our faith, i.e. the Catholic priests in the Catholic Church, because there are also sexually abusive and scandalous Christian pastors and ministers in Christian churches who are equally guilty?

[@jamessheffield4173]

The way of all flesh.

[@friendlybanjoatheist5464]

I appreciate these guys saying nice things about the work I did. I really do. (I even sent it to my mother, because she always wanted me to be a prophet, or something. 😉) It is quite revealing that neither of them knows the name of the one and only critical book that was ever written about Ravi. My book was meticulously documented with over 250 footnotes. No one could read that book, or even flip through it, without seeing that Ravi Zacharias was an absolute scoundrel. But they skipped it. I’m not sure what that says about censorship, enforced blindness, or wilfull suppression of bad news at RZIM and D Ravidom. But it says some thing.

[@SpeakLifeMedia]

Hey Steve, let me put a link in the description box to your book. I hope people check it out. If it's any consolation I don't know *any* of RZ's titles, at least I got half of yours :-D We'll have to get you on the channel. Let's sort something out.

[@nancyanders3475]

It shows that character does matter and we can't be fooled by those with charismatic personalities. Sadly and surprisingly no one working with Ravi discerned his true character. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing and Jesus warned us to be aware.

[@friendlybanjoatheist5464]

@@SpeakLifeMedia You did better than that, you got 3/4 of mine. :-). No need for the link, Glen, you are very kind. I was really not trying to push my book, (it is a bit outdated by now) just remarking that Sam not knowing the title is one more (small) indication fo the level of insularity at RZIM around the bad Ravi news.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Actually, I’m pretty sure that your book sold out on Amazon when the scandal first broke. I got one of the last copies available, a short time after the 12th.

[@kurtanderson5023]

Well done Steve. And your can be proud of you as well. Be safe and well. Thank you for kindness.

[@petemiller9865]

👊✌

[@madlove2339]

Also to call an atheist a prophet is similar to calling idol worshipper a priest of God

[@napalm867]

This was very good. I respect Sam a lot. He helped me a lot as I was very impacted by Ravi Zacharias over the years. I still grieve over this whole thing.

[@arlenedeborahdeleon2460]

can we hear what ramsdeen have to say? abu murray?

[@ClementPoh]

Hmm I disagree with your approach to his books and materials. I've only ever seen him from afar, so I don't have the same emotional connection that his victims or people close to him might. However I do see him similarly to any of the old testament characters, deeply flawed but did good work. His flaws don't necessarily undermine the good work he did, as the good work he did doesn't cover his flaws. But it's a good reminder, I am the worst of sinners.

[@KristiLEvans1]

It isn’t the same. Zacharias was not qualified to *teach*. He had a ministry - not a kingdom or other worldly post.

[@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036]

Although not sexual in nature does John MacArthur respond well to probing ? Nope 👎🏻 see Julie Roy’s article

[@misterjones78]

There are many similarities between RZIM and John McArthur. Both organizations were lead by "Cult of Personality" leaders who were unquestioned by both their staff and followers. Both have personal enforcers who brutally attack critics and unquestioningly defend their leader. Ravi had Abdu Murray, MacArthur has Phil Johnson. Both have their executive ranks and Board filled with highly paid family members, "Yes Men", and unquestioning Devotees. Both lack transparency when revealing the names of board members, salaries of executives, and financial spending. Both organizations are filled with nepotism as they have family members make six figure salaries and get benefits not available to the rest of the staff. Both McArthur and Ravi while being full-time employed in the Ministry, managed to lead lifestyles far far far far above that of the 99% of the world. Both have cult-like followers who viciously attack critics in the most heinous un-Christlike way. And both organizations have faced numerous accusations from staff members that their "Christian" organization's culture is actually a "Climate of Fear" where dissent against leadership is not allowed. If MacArthur has nothing to hide, they they should release of Board members names, all the salaries of their employees, and a detailed accounting of all their financial transactions. If Jesus ran a Ministry like MacArthur, he would gladly reveal all information on his Ministry. If MacArthur's organization is so healthy, he should allow his employees to freely express their opinions and frustrations without fear of reprisal. Jesus would allow this. John MacArthur does not.

[@KristiLEvans1]

No comparison. You may not like MacArthur, but there’s no reasonable comparison between him and Ravi, unless you think RZ’s victims aren’t fully human.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Such a banal equivalency is, in fact, an outrageous insult to these women. We’re talking about systematized sexual, physical, mental, spiritual and financial abuse. Of possibly hundreds of women, over the course of decades. Lives, ruined. Souls, lost.

[@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036]

@@misterjones78 amen sir, amen.

[@colleenjohnstoncomedy3036]

@@KristiLEvans1 I guess you’re ok with a man who’s seminary is a place of toxic fear, a board of nepotism and yes people so like Ravi he has no accountability. As long as he’s not a sexual predator the rest is ok? Support him all you want. I’m glad my eyes are now opened to these frauds

[@Window4503]

Honestly as a society we’ve seen enough sex scandals to know that people will go to any length to twist the story. In these cases, every single stone should be turned without a single assumption made until the conclusion is certain.

[@beverlytellifero7353]

Judas … what kind of friend betrays a friend with a kiss?