Special Fixture Stiffener

One part to a fixture for the Mazak Integrex and other things necessary for this up coming job.

[@tssteelx]

What ever the company is. Thank you for allowing edge to show us this. Next video: edge makes better clamps.

[@owievisie]

It was his own company, he sold it and rented some space for 2 of his machines so he can still work on his own

[@owievisie]

Oh wait you mean the customer I think :P

[@tssteelx]

@@owievisie correct.

[@tssteelx]

Lol he made better clamps...

[@HolosunGodOfOdin]

Peter if you ever have time to design and machine your own improved version of that toe clamp, I would be very interested to see what you come up with! Thanks for bringing us along on this project.

[@chris-graham]

It's amazing how small it looks in the model vs. the actual size

[@barrythompson4605]

I would call you a master of your profession, I can't imagine the thought that you put into these jobs, good videos, thank you.....

[@hammeng]

It's great to see someone with the amount of experience you have still someone's struggles with basic fixturing. Makes me feel a lot better about my own mistakes. Also with that cutter, you could probably use a small 1/4" hex ratchet with a torx bit to index the top inserts. It would still be fiddly, but wouldn't require taking the tool out of the holder.

[@Ujeb08]

So glad you uploaded the last 2 videos when you did. We're getting torrential rains due to the Nor-easter and your machining videos are just what I needed. Thanks

[@swentuvi1465]

Having worked for about 3 years professionally as a fixture designer I can´t stress enough that knowing how to operate these machines to make your design to reality is a key aspect to this kind of work. A lot of designers nowadays construct parts which they might have no idea how or with what can the geometry be reproduced according to the drawing - of course there are exceptions. In addition this guy on the Internet who I personally have never met is truly a master of his craft as previous commentators have said because designing a fixture is not always about how good the fixture is but sometimes a good fixture is hard to produce with the machines you have. So designing in regards to your machines capability for ease of use and assembly is an art to itself.

[@captcarlos]

Thanks again, Marvellous to listen to your thoughts.

[@dannywilsher4165]

Always a pleasure to watch! Thanks for sharing Peter!!!

[@nateb0722]

Thank you, this is really cool. The journey is so much better than the destination.

[@jimsvideos7201]

Props to the customer for being willing to share, and thanks to you Peter for taking the time to share your insight.

[@James-fs4rn]

👍 thanks for sharing. Always interested in what you do.

[@aserta]

Interesting fixture. The Mazak is a beast.

[@billdlv]

Nice job Peter, like watching your problem solving process. At my old job I had a set of those Mitee-bite clamps and I used them for a couple of jobs holding some plates down on a rotary table. They worked good and held the part securely.

[@TheTrex600ESP]

Great video again. I am excited everytime my bell rings and Edge Precision is out with new content :D

[@FernandoGonzalez-mc3pk]

Hola buen día yo vivo en la frontera soy de México y tus videos me an ayudado mucho esperó sigas subiendo mas Saludos.

[@paulrosebrock]

This is such good content. Thank you for putting the time into share

[@theessexhunter1305]

I made a set of those side clamps as an apprentice back in the 70's They were used at least once a week by one of the toolmakers. As an apprentice it was good buzz to see them used.

[@extradimension7356]

This was a LOT of fun, really enjoyed watching this ! Nice work with actual finesse. Inset blended corner graphic of the integrex setup and fixture was a nice touch, and great image quality and visual texture with the horizontal mill. Camera seems rock steady in the H-mill. But especially great that you let the camera and the viewer linger longer over the 2.000 " tool. Interesting ergonomic and engineering problems with the off the shelf clamps.

[@mikemichelizzi2023]

I really appreciate these videos, not only because I get to sort of look over your shoulder as you do some of the work, but also because it helps to fight the impression that I get of experienced machinists simply whipping up a fixture or a jig to hold a workpiece. Thanks for all the work you do to share this.

[@trustaskinnycook610]

Great content!

[@isavega6838]

Very good job peter

[@d6c10k4]

I never had much luck with those wedge clamps either. I've thought about eliminating the screw and adding a small toe clamp on top to push on the dovetail slide but I never got around to trying it.

[@NotDerekSmart]

I remember using similar clamps for a run of steel caps that needed modification. The screws don't like a ton of force being put on them and being clamped/unclamped hundred of times over.

[@fredygump5578]

To change those hard to reach inserts, check out Chapman Tools. They make nice little ratcheting bit holder and bit sets that are perfect for getting in tight spaces. It's American made, and they've been makng the same tools since the 1930's, which is pretty neat. You can get a kit that includes almost every bit imaginable, or you can just buy the single bit you actually need. I'm not associated with them, but I'm really impressed with their stuff.

[@mjshorty19]

I just used that identical Iscar cutter 2 weeks ago and it is definitely an inconvenience to have to remove the tool from the holder but the inserts last a long time.

[@wildin13]

I have a 40mm one with 6 inserts but I had an L wrench included in the box to make changing inserts easier 🤷‍♂️ they're still small and fiddly as hell though!

[@brianbob7514]

That fixture is bigger than I thought from the CAD view

[@medievalhamster]

Carr Lane makes an edge clamp that we've had pretty good luck with at work, it's a CL-MF50-1001. One only drawback is that it's about 3 inches tall so we have to have a stepped surface for thinner parts. The other is it requires two hold down bolts so it wouldn't work in this particular application without some sort of adapter which would make it even taller.

[@mikefightmaster]

Good camera work.

[@OMY005]

I've used the same iscar slot cutter for many years. It came with a right-angled key to fit the screws while the cutter is in the holder. Be certain that they are torqued correctly. Too tight and the insert can crack or strip the thread. I've had some come loose also. There's no second chance if a insert breaks.

[@twobob]

looking back. those really are nasty vertical clamps. Glad you replaced them

[@jasonruch3529]

peter i use anti seize on the screwq of those clamps or they dont feel like they hold, also i run my 3in iscar at 650sfm and .05 a rev

[@jonwatte4293]

Nice blue chips, despite the somewhat wiggly action!

[@vettepicking]

Case hardening powder would make that set screw work perfect. I use it on mild steel parts

[@EdgePrecision]

I do have some of that stuff in my blacksmithing supplies. I will get some more setscrews and give it a try. Thanks!

[@vettepicking]

I was thinking deeper. You can re-harden the set screws because they are most likely a carbon steel. May be able to get 55rc after quenching. Or use a quality off the shelf set screw if they are not some crazy thread.

[@EdgePrecision]

@@vettepicking I think they are 1/2-13 thread. The screws need to be replaced already. Maybe I can get some that are already hard. I will look. I have to order the screws for the fixture anyway from McMaster. I will check to see if they have something. Thanks.

[@paulhammond7489]

Pity they would not let you record the manufacture of the main job, but I'm more than happy to see the design and machining of the fixture :)

[@PeteGmp1]

I use that iscar cutter. Yes changing the inside inserts is a pain cause the screws are short and its hard to start them however the performance more than makes up for it compared to the self grip style. The insert looks weak but the pocket gives it a lot of rigidity.

[@EdgePrecision]

That's good to hear. It is a expensive cutter.

[@PeteGmp1]

@@EdgePrecision yeah i just bought a 40mm by 3mm one 2 days ago and it was $650 Canadian. I would run it with tool load monitoring to be safe. Iscar is hard to beat with their grooving line.

@@PeteGmp1 We also have a 40mm and, if I'm not mistaken, the small manual that came with it mentions a small angled version of those torx-bits that usually comes in the box... Maybe they have stopped to include them and instead make you buy it separate nowadays...

[@PeteGmp1]

@ I've used that key however i use the tool in a 6axis lathe so the likelihood of losing the screw is far greater than when using it in a milling holder on the bench.

[@owievisie]

Really cool to see a fixture being made with your hands How many% of the job is designing and making the fixture vs the % of the part itself?

[@johnnason7019]

Chapman Manufacturing makes a really compact ratcheting screwdriver that would probably fit behind the slot cutter.

[@randomdude1786]

Ya they don't make'm like they used to. Those screw's gotta go , Gibralter That armstrong (the armstrong) there stuff is good to the screw face will work harden with some moly to get it going but those threads? Thanks Peter resting my back for1/2 hour felt good entertained too!

[@pakirrikafka9754]

I need those kind of clamps, can you tell me what brand are those ?

[@jimsvideos7201]

Also, for the clamps, what if you did something like the head bolts on a big diesel? Tension the clamp with a little hydraulic cylinder, lock it with a finger-tight nut.

[@Juxtaposed1Nmotion]

Is there not a Blanchard grinder around that can through up that plate stock and prepare it to .001" for you?

[@EdgePrecision]

There are grinding shops. But that kind of precision for this part really isn’t necessary. Also that won’t really help for the aluminum parts.

[@FesixGermany]

I don't mind if the customer doesn't want you to show the finished part, different and unique ways of fixturing is also very interesting.

[@dlfabrications]

Do you have to tram the tombstone with the spindle?

[@EdgePrecision]

The way the tombstone is machined it is parallel to the Y axis. When it’s mounted to the pallet it does need to be indicated in to be parallel on its front face to the X axis. The other faces are machined at precisely 90 degree intervals. So if one face is square to the spindle than if the B axis is rotated at 90 degree indexes. Those faces will also be square to the spindle.

[@Sketch1994]

So all mill clamps suck in the end? My boss should be glad I hadn't ordered those yet but the Pitbulls and Talons we use on a part can't make go much further than 250 clamps/unclamps as the screws get warped and bent by 50 and they eventually fatigue off. Also untightening and tightening 6 screws every 5:58 becomes grueling if you consider you are deburring the fixture sides of the raw stock in one pile and deburr finished parts on the other. Can anyone recommend any hydraulic or less preferable even pneumatic alternative?

[@EdgePrecision]

I'm going to think about this. Maybe I can come up with a mechanical edge clamp that's a better design. For a production job where hundreds or thousands of parts are required a hydraulic clamping method would probably be best. That would probably require a custom fixture.

[@PatrikAndersson82]

I've used many of the available brands for clamps like that. They all work, but it's always a last resort for me. Had parts come flying/move and just generally not being rigid enough. But I suppose you have to adjust your cutting strategy to match your fixturing. Once you've had a part move/fly away you at least know where the limit is... Of the ones I've tried I like the mitee bites and AMF brand the best.

[@CapeCodCNC]

That's a pretty complex and pricey fixture. Do you ever use HEM (full axial) like on the ends or would it be slower? Would it help with tool life? Great video!

[@EdgePrecision]

There are applications where a full depth with a small radial cut depth works in exotic materials. It works to increase lead angle of the cutter. Or on machines with less spindle power. But these so called adaptive (fusion) or profit milling (esprit) spend a lot of time cutting air in their transitional moves. This strategies have their place. But it’s been my experience they actually take more time. If you machine has the power and rigidity to take the cuts it goes faster to just do what you see in this video.

[@extradimension7356]

@@EdgePrecision Just chipping that that is a valuable insight. Thanks for the question and answer.

[@CapeCodCNC]

@@EdgePrecision Thank you for your insight.

[@waynepegram3262]

Have you tried shimming the stationary body away from the pallet at its toe (.010-.015" ?), tighten the jam screw up, then remove shim and tighten stationary body up? You would have to install a blocker behind stationary body so it would not slide back while removing the shim. (until you design a better mousetrap)

[@EdgePrecision]

The clamps are working OK. I was just pointing out where they cold possibly be improved on. I may put some thought into a better design.

[@ACatKrom]

can you but a hardened ball between the tip of the screw and surface it pushes against?

[@EdgePrecision]

That may be possible. I think the bigger problem is the thread galling. I think I try to get some new set screws an case harden them. I have some of that case hardening powder. They appear to be 1/2-13 set screws.

[@ACatKrom]

@@EdgePrecision a grease to keep the threads lubed with some sort of EP lube may work for that, no idea what it would do to the coolant you use though

[@cnxunuo]

Ansys! Do you do deflection or modal response in it?

[@EdgePrecision]

I just upgraded my old copy of SpaceClaim to this. I mostly use it for my cad software. I like it better than Solidworks or Fusion. They had a special deal for SpaceClaim users.

[@cnxunuo]

@@EdgePrecision I see! Didnt know they do modeling too, i ve only used their FEM simulation packages

[@Iceberg86300]

@@cnxunuo IIRC they acquired spaceclaim a few years ago so they could finally have native solid modelling/editing capability that didn't completely suck like their old editor.

[@CorndogBrownie]

Also, is that facemill ISCAR? The R390 based sandvik we have is alright, but it would be much nicer to upgrade to a 4 corner insert.

[@EdgePrecision]

Yes it is a Iscar heliquad. It’s a very old design of theirs. But it has worked fine for me. I like some of Sandvik turning tooling. But I haven’t had the best success with their milling tooling.

[@CorndogBrownie]

@@EdgePrecision from what I’ve gleamed over the past decade here is the 390 insert is the way to got for 1.5 inch and smaller for most roughing ops, but their face mill with the 390’s are great for high rpm finishing, but not so great for roughing and heavy cuts. .1” doc with 75% engagement on a 3 inch face mill seems to be the max, on a 50 taper boring mill. Lots of rigidity and power, just not the best seat geometry, perhaps.

[@jobkneppers]

Peter, I didn't watch the complete video yet but shooting from the hip; is the horizontal mill the only machine next to the Mazak you can work on? I agree that these clamps suck but how about lining up three machine vices in a bigger mill and just skim the top of the profile without any hassle? These clamps are really low on the bottom of the profile and are having a hard time fighting the momentum you put on them by cutting on the other side. Alternative solution; first put in a few holes on the side on your t-slot locations. Adjust horizontally with a dial indicator and run both opposite sides in one operation. Parallel as the machine allows. For me, I'm younger ;-) this seams a weird and overcomplex setup. I'm probably wrong because of your age and experience so let me know. All the best, Job (looking further; clamped in the t-slots; sides to length and holding groove in the same setup. Maybe some extra holes but who cares for a jig. Thru?)

[@EdgePrecision]

I don't have access to any other machines. So its between the horizontal and the Mazak. But there is a more important reason I'm working this way. The next setups involving the aluminum plate (You saw at the video end) need this setup more than this part. So in essence when I machine a group of parts, it's kind of like a chess game. I'm looking for the setup that will cover more moves. So this bar and clamp arrangement more relates to the aluminum plate parts. Also I don't have and really cant even mount vises in the proper arrangement on this tombstone face to handle this long of a part. I have on this machine 1250 mm X travel by 1000 mm Y travel This bar is 36" long. Now in theory I could reach that in the Y of 39.37" of travel with vises mounted vertically. But there would still be interference with the tombstone base and the fact that I don't have the three vises necessary to do it. So I thought what setup would better cover more of the parts. It might not be ideal for this part but for the aluminum plates it will be necessary because vises cant be used for them.

[@micahhunter2706]

How does you probe know it's not in the spindle?

[@EdgePrecision]

There is a transceiver that uses ultraviolet light to communicate with the probe. It’s mounted a up above on the YZ axis column. When the tool changer puts the probe in the spindle the probe receives this light signal and turns on. But as long as it is in the transceivers light signal it remains on. If the probe is left in the spindle for a long period of time it will run the battery down. So I make a habit of always changing it out of the spindle when I’m finished.

[@lloyd4768]

Is this fixture for one part or are you making a bunch of them?

[@EdgePrecision]

I am making more than one part.

[@ericlaughlin3385]

Your rite about that cutter its super fragile it has a tendency to pull itself in to the cut if climb milling on full slot applications I have had to conventional mill with them your millage may vary

[@EdgePrecision]

I don’t really follow what you are saying. Climb milling should always push the cutter away from the cut. Conventional cut would pull the cutter into the cut.

[@ericlaughlin3385]

@@EdgePrecision I ag6100 percent and didn't make alot of since to me either but after having one cutter explode my iscar was with me and had conventional mill with it and it worked you might not have the same problem I did but if that cutter is deep in a slot bu the time you hear go bad it's to late I was cutting prehard material about 32 inches long now this was several years ago and they had some kind of issue with this type cutter because they replaced mine and no charge because I was running their feed and speed and it would not do it so they had me go backwards and it worked

[@EdgePrecision]

I have never used this style of cutter. But there are two commenters on this video so far that have had good success. They both said the inserts are hard to index though.

[@ericlaughlin3385]

@@EdgePrecision they are good cutters and they can b hard to index I was giving my experience with this cutter I got the parts machined with it and I was cutting bid key slots you might not have any trouble I just heard yo say those inserts look fragile and they are if you break one deep in a cut the others don't have a chance because their spaced so far apart when I had one wreck with me that was my first experience with that style cutter I love videos you do really good job

[@WilliamTMusil]

Hiya Peter

[@jsteifel]

writting as I am watching, why not use grease or anti seize on the screw to prevent the galling. I don't think they will back out, but I think they would help with the screw issues.

[@EdgePrecision]

There was a little when the clamp was new. I also cleaned off some for the video. It appears that the thread in the clamp body is harder than the screw. I think if the screw was harder or to look at it another way. The rotating part (the thread) needs to be harder. And more grease would help.

[@CorndogBrownie]

Some constructive criticism, This would have been more of a multi vise OP, at least from my standpoint. Especially with the flame cut plate which like you said, goes all wonky and wavy, the vises do distort it, but as long as you can get one good edge out of it, the rest arent too bad. But you might have had the vises tied up in another setup, which is understandable. Just my $0.02

[@EdgePrecision]

I don’t have the multi vises. So this is my poor mans vise. Also there are other parts (remember the aluminum plats on the pallet) that can’t be held in a vise. The next videos you will see what I mean. I’m using the same setup for them all.

[@CorndogBrownie]

@@EdgePrecision makes sense, sounds good. Can’t wait for the next video. Always makes my day when they come out

[@kisspeteristvan]

I bet this is one of those jobs that need a month of planning and executing to make the first specimen .

[@EdgePrecision]

Almost.

[@dandeflavis7004]

Why not use mill vices instead of those toe clamps?

[@EdgePrecision]

I don’t have the vises. But even if I did this tombstone isn’t wide enough to mount them side by side. Now I could run this part vertically. But as you will see in upcoming videos I’m going to use this same bar to work on those plates you saw in the end of the video. Those plates are to large for vises.

[@dandeflavis7004]

@@EdgePrecision ok, good to know, it looked bigger in the video. Thank you for the good content.

[@DancingMachine1]

does someone know how these side clamps work? Edit: Oh he actually shows it in detail,... nevermind :D

[@akfarmboy49]

Did you buy that horizontal mill new? Is it cat50

[@EdgePrecision]

No I bought the machine used and yes it is a cat 50 taper spindle.

[@akfarmboy49]

@@EdgePrecision thank you I always get some ideas from your videos. I’ll look in to that iscar cutter type.

[@juanyamasaki9930]

your video making tech. is better now

[@jessehall8168]

Possibly dumb question: when the ledge piece was milled to be perfectly horizontal, how did you skim the entire thickness of it without touching the vertical face?

[@aculasabacca]

I've seen him put a couple layers of paper against the surface of the tombstone, 2 layers gave him .005 to play with. 10:28 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnvJl6x9m7Fomdk

[@jessehall8168]

@@aculasabacca good point, top comment on that video was another good idea, pre chamfer the inside edge so there's a gap to aim for.

[@EdgePrecision]

I should have shown a close up shot of the bar. When I first prepared the bar I clamped it to the pallet face with those same toe clamps on both sides. Than I skim faced the bottom. Than I cut an notch along both corners for a relief of about .10” by .10”. Now I flipped it over and clamped it in the position you see it in the video. Now because of the relief in the corner is down against the pallet face I don’t have to go all the way down to the face to mill the edge. Hope that makes sense. It’s hard to explain in a comment. I should have shown this in the video thanks.

[@jessehall8168]

@@EdgePrecision yes, thanks, makes complete sense, at least to me. Saw a comment on another of your videos that mentions pre chamfering making things easy, which sort of jogged my imagination in that direction. Seems obvious now haha.

[@brucegiroux]

Design a better toe clamp.

[@EdgePrecision]

I may put some thought into that.

[@Sicktrickintuner]

Im surprised it wasn’t a socket head cap screw with a hardened washer. Kinda terrible design as the threads would also push apart the sliding bits making them not line up either.